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Sun Aug 31, 2014, 05:29 PM

 

Protesters march against Nato summit

Source: The Telegraph

Hundreds anti-war protesters marched peacefully through Newport on Saturday, days before the Welsh town was to host world leaders at the Nato summit. More than 150 heads of state and ministers will attend the two-day event at Newport's Celtic Manor Resort. Security for the summit will be provided by 9,500 police officers drawn from 43 UK police forces with 12 miles of security fencing already in place at keys sites in Cardiff and Newport.

The event will be "uncharted territory" for police – while Wales' First Minister Carwyn Jones has said it will be "momentous" in his country's history. However, its presence in the principality – and the UK – has been met with strong opposition from a number of anti-war groups as well as left-wing organisations. The demonstrators held placards against Nato involvement in conflicts around the world and shouted pro-Palestinian slogans.

Chris Nineham, vice chairman of Stop the War Coalition, said the worsening situation in Iraq was a direct result of the "invasion and occupation of Iraq that started in 2003. The idea again that what we need is more of the same – we need more Western bombs, we need more Western arms into the country – is ludicrous and again has to be opposed," he said.

Another demonstration is scheduled for Thursday, the first day of the Nato summit.


Read more: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newsvideo/11066021/Protesters-march-against-Nato-summit.html



More power to the protestors. NATO really has outlived it's usefulness. Now it is more of an excuse to start a new war than anything else.

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Reply Protesters march against Nato summit (Original post)
another_liberal Aug 2014 OP
Purveyor Aug 2014 #1
another_liberal Aug 2014 #2
7962 Aug 2014 #3
another_liberal Aug 2014 #4
7962 Aug 2014 #5
another_liberal Aug 2014 #6
7962 Aug 2014 #8
another_liberal Aug 2014 #10
7962 Sep 2014 #25
elias49 Sep 2014 #26
pampango Sep 2014 #32
newthinking Aug 2014 #18
another_liberal Aug 2014 #20
amandabeech Sep 2014 #42
newthinking Sep 2014 #53
LanternWaste Sep 2014 #56
elias49 Sep 2014 #27
3rdwaydem Aug 2014 #7
7962 Aug 2014 #9
3rdwaydem Aug 2014 #11
another_liberal Aug 2014 #13
7962 Aug 2014 #21
Bragi Sep 2014 #44
7962 Sep 2014 #49
IronGate Aug 2014 #22
Bragi Sep 2014 #46
7962 Sep 2014 #50
Bragi Sep 2014 #51
7962 Sep 2014 #52
happyslug Aug 2014 #17
newthinking Aug 2014 #19
3rdwaydem Aug 2014 #12
KoKo Aug 2014 #14
another_liberal Aug 2014 #15
KoKo Aug 2014 #16
IronGate Aug 2014 #23
another_liberal Sep 2014 #24
IronGate Sep 2014 #28
another_liberal Sep 2014 #36
Legalequilibrium78 Sep 2014 #29
Blue_Tires Sep 2014 #30
another_liberal Sep 2014 #31
Lurks Often Sep 2014 #38
another_liberal Sep 2014 #48
Blue_Tires Sep 2014 #45
another_liberal Sep 2014 #47
Unvanguard Sep 2014 #33
another_liberal Sep 2014 #34
Unvanguard Sep 2014 #35
another_liberal Sep 2014 #37
Lurks Often Sep 2014 #39
another_liberal Sep 2014 #41
Lurks Often Sep 2014 #43
IronGate Sep 2014 #40
another_liberal Sep 2014 #57
Unvanguard Sep 2014 #59
another_liberal Sep 2014 #60
cemaphonic Sep 2014 #55
Judi Lynn Sep 2014 #54
another_liberal Sep 2014 #58

Response to another_liberal (Original post)

Sun Aug 31, 2014, 05:34 PM

1. kick. Thanks for posting. +1 eom

 

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Response to Purveyor (Reply #1)

Sun Aug 31, 2014, 06:20 PM

2. I hope they make a few people think about what still having NATO means . . .

 

What can a military alliance in search of an excuse for its own existence do but start foreign wars?

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Response to another_liberal (Reply #2)

Sun Aug 31, 2014, 06:34 PM

3. When you're a small country with Russia as a neighbor, it can mean a LOT,

 

knowing someone will (supposedly) be there to help you in a time of need. Or when you're invaded.
What would Europe be if NATO had never existed? The Soviet Union. What does Putin want back more than anything? The Soviet Union.
Some here always talk about "neocons always want war'. Well, if Russia didnt do the things they're doing right now, what excuse would there be to stand against them militarily? None.

ETA- Let me add that I agree with the statement about Iraq, the biggest mistake we ever made.

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Response to 7962 (Reply #3)

Sun Aug 31, 2014, 06:46 PM

4. It's always easy to find a reason to go and join a war . . .

 

Or, as in NATO's case, to go and start one.

In which European countries is Russia interfering; that is, other than maybe some of the ones the US and NATO have already been interfering in themselves?

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Response to another_liberal (Reply #4)

Sun Aug 31, 2014, 06:55 PM

5. you'd conveniently say its NATOs fault (or the US) that Russia has invaded Ukraine.

 

Which is a part of eastern EUROPE.
But keep on supporting Putin. He'll keep doing what he desires until at SOME point the rest of Europe stands against him. And when that happens it will be Russia who started it.

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Response to 7962 (Reply #5)

Sun Aug 31, 2014, 07:00 PM

6. That hardly qualifies as an invasion . . .

 

The election Crimea held on joining the Russian Federation was at least as creditable as the coup and rump election which put Poroshenko in power, through our "interference" and that of our allies in NATO.

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Response to another_liberal (Reply #6)

Sun Aug 31, 2014, 07:05 PM

8. What about the stream of Russian troops & weaponry flowing into Ukraine right now?

 

Oh, thats right, they're all on "vacation". Odd how when you go on vacation you get to take a tank with you.

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Response to 7962 (Reply #8)

Sun Aug 31, 2014, 07:07 PM

10. The one which doesn't really exist?

 

Yeah, we've all heard about that stream. What about it?

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Response to another_liberal (Reply #10)

Mon Sep 1, 2014, 08:03 AM

25. Oh thats right, the Russians said the video was from a VIDEO GAME! Sounds like N Korea.

 

Because we're like the Iranians; we'll publish fake shit all the time thats easily seen to be fake, right? And the other videos of tanks rolling in, thats all faked too, right? All the NATO and US satellite shots are faked? The rebels admitting Russians are fighting with them are lying too, I guess. Those captured paratroopers who "got lost"?

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Response to 7962 (Reply #25)

Mon Sep 1, 2014, 08:16 AM

26. Let's not forget Colin Powell and his fake shit

 

leading up to our invasion and occupation of Iraq. Fake shit is what the superpowers do.

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Response to another_liberal (Reply #6)

Tue Sep 2, 2014, 08:24 AM

32. The 'election' in Crimea had zero credibility.

The United Nations General Assembly also rejected the vote and annexation, adopting a resolution affirming the "territorial integrity of Ukraine within its internationally recognized borders".



The means by which the referendum was conducted were widely criticized by foreign governments and in the Ukrainian and international press, with reports that anyone holding a Russian passport regardless of residency in Crimea was allowed to vote. However, Russia defended the integrity of the voting process, and a group of European observers, principally from right-wing and far-right political parties aligned with Putin, said the referendum was conducted in a free and fair manner

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annexation_of_Crimea_by_the_Russian_Federation

Vladimir Putin’s own Council on the Development of Civil Society and Human Rights has confirmed that the turnout for the so-called “referendum” on the Crimea’s status was much lower than reported, and the results also far less overwhelmingly in favour of joining Russia. The same results have been reported from other sources, however this report can hardly be dismissed as seditious US propaganda. The confirmation that Russia used falsified figures to justify the annexation comes on the eve of other supposed “referendums” planned for two east Ukrainian oblasts.

The report finds that while the overwhelming majority of residents of Sevastopol voted for joining Russian (turnout of 50-80%), the turnout for all of Crimea was from 30-50% and only 50-60% of those voted for joining Russia.

Read more: http://khpg.org/index.php?id=1399238176

Per Putin's own council, the turnout was low and a slight majority of those voting in favor of annexation. Why didn't Russia just go with these results? Instead they falsified the vote and claimed that there was 80% turnout and 94% in favor of joining Russia? (I wonder why the "European observers, principally from right-wing and far-right political parties aligned with Putin" did not catch this discrepancy in the manner in which the vote was conducted?)

The answer perhaps: using the actual turnout and vote would mean that about 22% (55% of a 40% turnout) of eligible voters voted in favor of union with Russia. It is much more 'convincing' to some if the favorable vote comes from 75% (94% of an 80% turnout) of eligible voters even if the latter numbers are made up.

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Response to another_liberal (Reply #4)

Sun Aug 31, 2014, 08:39 PM

18. Especially when the plan was put into place 10 years earlier.

This is regime change / shock doctrine. Ukraine has incredible agricultural resources and apparently also fracking potential. Russia is a huge prize waiting to be captured for the elites. It has probably the largest untapped reserves of many natural resources that have never been unlocked, including some of the largest oil reserves in the world.

This is a 10 year plan. The propaganda war to increase our fear and tie new Russia to the USSR was subtly accomplished. The first attempt at regime change failed when the goverment was soundly rejected after 15 months. Something about driving the country into recession and, interestingly, unpopular extremism (Yushenko tried to legitimize Noe-Nazi aims including a law to make teh controversial Stephen Bandera into an official national hero.

Here you can read all about it:
To understand the events in Ukraine you must understand the "first" Maidan - the Orange Revolution
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025459029

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Response to newthinking (Reply #18)

Sun Aug 31, 2014, 09:22 PM

20. Well said . . .

 

Particularly noteworthy is your mention of Bandera's rehabilitation. Hero worship of a man who did what Bandera did is disgusting and his being officially venerated is equally repulsive. The authorities in Kiev should know better than to open the door to those emotions.

Has Poroshenko forgotten what happened at Babi Yar? It was Bandera's Nazi masters who did that.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babi_Yar


http://www.ushmm.org/online/film/display/detail.php?file_num=4419

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Response to newthinking (Reply #18)

Tue Sep 2, 2014, 03:40 PM

42. Russia has already been captured by elites.

 

It's own elites! If Putin and his friends are not elites, then I don't know what the meaning of "elite" is.

And it seems that the Putin/Russian elites are doing an excellent job of making oodles and oodles of money from the mineral wealth of Russia.

And then parking the money in London and Switzerland.

Those supporters of the current Russian regime really need to look at the Russian regime itself instead of worrying about about the west.

Really, you're very funny.

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Response to amandabeech (Reply #42)

Tue Sep 2, 2014, 09:47 PM

53. I know more about Russia and Ukraine then most of the armchair warriors here do

I had hoped for years for Ukraine to become part of the Euro Union, before most here even knew where the place was on a map.

But not the way it was done and certainly not by aligning with really bad guys, stealing their resources, and allowing an extremist mafia to "enforce order".

Some people on here need to realize that there are actually people here who know these countries and peoples. I would not presume to be as forceful and sure in my opinions on the middle east. I have never been there. They might actually know more about the situations then I do.

As far as the elites, of course they have oligarchs. I am not sure what your point is. The stereotypes only work if you want to form your opinion from soundbites. Mafia state, all that crap. I have yet to meet a culture that fit into the stereotypes bantered around about them.... In fact I thought it was part of liberalism not to stereotype cultures. That is one of the things that attracted me to the liberal side of things.

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Response to newthinking (Reply #53)

Wed Sep 3, 2014, 01:49 PM

56. Creative allegation. Little more than that, though...

"I know more about Russia and Ukraine then most of the armchair warriors here do..."
Creative allegation. Little more than that, though.


"Some people on here need to realize that there are actually people here who know these countries and peoples..."
You may wish to take your own advice, then.

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Response to 7962 (Reply #3)

Mon Sep 1, 2014, 08:22 AM

27. Do you really think Russia is planning to invade Wales? Good grief! n/t

 

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Response to another_liberal (Original post)

Sun Aug 31, 2014, 07:03 PM

7. NATO was an effective alliance

 

which deterred the USSR and it's Warsaw Pact puppets from invading for over 40 years. With the collapse of the USSR, once classified archives indicate that even up until the era of Gorbachev, hard liners were pushing for an invasion. Even campaign medals had been prepared and sat in a Soviet wheyerhouse. Thankfully these were never awarded. However, the invasion plans were detailed and were entirely offensive in nature. They relied on the element of complete surprise and lack of any provocation by the West. Had the NATO alliance not remained steadfast, this might have occurred. He's a link to one of the articles about this: http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a528121.pdf

I too had, in recent years, questioned the usefulness of NATO. Yet, given the recent actions of Russia in Ukraine, I think it still serves an important purpose.

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Response to 3rdwaydem (Reply #7)

Sun Aug 31, 2014, 07:06 PM

9. You make too much sense to be here!

 

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Response to 7962 (Reply #9)

Sun Aug 31, 2014, 07:10 PM

11. Well, if that's a back handed compliment, I'll take it.

 

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Response to 3rdwaydem (Reply #7)

Sun Aug 31, 2014, 07:32 PM

13. Russia's recent actions toward Ukraine have been peaceful and reactive . . .

 

We in the West, particularly in the US, are the ones who created this whole crisis, which has now become a bloody civil war. It is all on our heads.

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Response to another_liberal (Reply #13)

Sun Aug 31, 2014, 11:26 PM

21. Yes, they're "peacefully" invading and destroying villages as they go.

 

How do you peacefully invade a country with tanks, artillery and troops firing on the citizens?

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Response to 7962 (Reply #21)

Tue Sep 2, 2014, 03:54 PM

44. Really? Have you any evidence?

I ask because I was in another discussion this morning elsewhere, and learned that there isn't much by way of independent verification that there are actually Russian troops deployed in big numbers anywhere in Ukraine.

Someone noted how odd it is that this seems to be the only invasion we've seen in recent years where there isn't a single photo posted on social media showing the invading force, or the destruction they've done. No smartphones in Ukraine?

The only alleged "proof" I've seen so far of alleged Russian invasion was a satellite photo from Ukraine (or State department) intelligence that looked as convincing as Colin Powell's show-and-tell presentation to the UN a few years back lying about proof of WMDs in Iraq.

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Response to Bragi (Reply #44)

Tue Sep 2, 2014, 05:29 PM

49. NATO satellite photos, as well as cell phone photos.

 

When the Russians say those photos are taken from a video game, that makes me fairly confident that they're accurate. Because thats about the stupidest denial I would expect to hear from an official Russian spokesman.
Also photos showing artillery on the border in firing position, which would support Ukraines claims that they have bee fired on FROM Russian territory.
Check these pictures out. COULD they be fake? Sure. But they're NOT from Ukraine and I am gonna trust NATO over Russia ANY day.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2014/08/28/nato-these-new-satellite-images-show-russian-troops-in-and-around-ukraine/

And rebels admitting that thousands of Russians have been helping them all along. They say the Russians are "on leave". Do you really think any such nonsense is possible?

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Response to another_liberal (Reply #13)

Sun Aug 31, 2014, 11:35 PM

22. Peaceful and reactive?

 


Yeah, leave it to you to be Putin's spokesman here at DU.

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Response to IronGate (Reply #22)

Tue Sep 2, 2014, 04:05 PM

46. Why is everyone against war now called a Putin shil?

Why is anyone who tries to make the case for peace immediately accused here of being a Putin-lovin' paid Commie shill?

Think about it: Who has more national interest at stake along its own borders than Russia? Why wouldn't they be very interested, even aggressive, when NATO announces it will enlarge itself, and set up shop all along their border, with some kind of military pact/mobile strike force?

I think more respect is needed towards those who choose to want peace, and who follow Pres. Obama's foreign policy mantra, which is, you will recall, this: Don't do stupid shit.

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Response to Bragi (Reply #46)

Tue Sep 2, 2014, 05:38 PM

50. Because most posting are supporting Russian statements, not just opposing war.

 

NATO has BEEN on a small part of the Russian border for years and it hasnt caused problems. Ukraine has not been offered membership in NATO. Most of Ukraines population is not supportive of NATO membership. This has nothing to do with NATO and everything to do with Putin wanting to reform the Soviet Union in some new fashion.

Most posts come from the same group that quotes RT and Russian officials as though they would be accurate sources. I would say anyone who quotes RT should no longer have any problems with anything coming from Fox News over here.
I have not seen any of your posts before now, so I wont accuse you of being one of them.

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Response to 7962 (Reply #50)

Tue Sep 2, 2014, 08:29 PM

51. You wrote:

This has nothing to do with NATO and everything to do with Putin wanting to reform the Soviet Union in some new fashion.


This is what I don't get: Why would Russia NOT pursue a foreign policy that it thinks would help shape its immediate neighborhood in ways that they feel best suits their interests? I can't think of any reason for them not to do so. Given the relationships between states in the region since long-ago times, why would Russia NOT want to return things now to where it sees more advantages for itself than at present? Where it has more secure borders, the wheat fields of Ukraine, the oil and gas of central Asia, and good friendships with Chinese neighbors. I think that's one way Russia and the whole region could prosper. I think it's also close to what Putin and his group are thinking.

So what's wrong with that? Why does NATO have to surround Russia because of it? I say, let people in the region -- including Russians - decide their own future. It's certainly not ours to decide. - B

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Response to Bragi (Reply #51)

Tue Sep 2, 2014, 08:49 PM

52. Because Russia forms its policy by using force. And NATO isnt trying to surround them.

 

Nato only borders a small part of Russia. Putin has one main goal in life and thats to stop the US from being the main superpower in the world. He'll partner up with China as well in order to further that goal. He's trying to stir up patriotism at home because he knows how weak the country really is. Their economy os one dimensional; energy. Other than that they've got nothing. So invading a weak neighbor gets everyones mind off the problems. He tested it with the invasion of Georgia, and when nothing much happened from that, he moved forward with his plan. Letting the people in the region decide means Russia getting their way. There's no way Russia will allow a vote anywhere to go any way but theirs.
I'll be interested to hear Obamas speech when he goes to Estonia. The newer members of NATO are worried that they really DONT have any outside support or protection from Russia. He'd better reassure them that NATO has a backbone.

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Response to 3rdwaydem (Reply #7)

Sun Aug 31, 2014, 08:33 PM

17. Senator Monahan would disagree with you on that

 

NATO was to control the streets of Paris not stop any Soviet invasion. That is a paraphase of a comment made while he was a Senator, but reflected the situation when NATO was formed.

The communist parties of France and Italy were the largest parties NOT tied in with the NAZIs. The US had to spend a lot of money to prevent them from being voted into office. NATO was to give cover for support to non communist parties; by providing an area where communists could be kept out, but also a way to give support for non communist politician in political races with communists.

Sorry Soviet invasion of western Europe would only occur if the political situation in Western Europe called for it; and such a situation never occurred. Sorry NATO never had to fight the Soviet Red Army for the simple reason Soviet doctrine such an attack would only occur during a time period of suppression of the working class. No suppression no attack. We knew that from day one thus the US support for NATO had little to do with the Soviet Union but the streets of Paris.

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Response to 3rdwaydem (Reply #7)

Sun Aug 31, 2014, 08:50 PM

19. Those are "what if plans and preparation" . We have them too and also conducted exercises where we

practiced an invasion of Russia. That is how countries keep prepared.

It has been us who have had a actual implemented plan to attempt eventually bring Russia into the Shock Doctrine state of economic capitulation to the elites. They have vast resources.

Of course they would release this document. It reinforces the installed belief system and makes it easier to attempt aggressive actions.

In the modern world you don't wait until the date an action like this is done, you groom it and prepare the population in advance. All you have to do is look at the PNAC documents for global domination, which the organization and planning occurred about that same time.

Then a 2 + 2 look at who is knee deep and who was brought in (McCain, Nuland , the wife of one of the originators of PNAC and the Iraq war). The evidence is remarkably in view, but the propaganda is so loud it distracts everyone.

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Response to another_liberal (Original post)

Sun Aug 31, 2014, 07:12 PM

12. Conservatives in the USSR acted just like Conservatives in the US

 

That is to say that they saw war as just another policy option.

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Response to another_liberal (Original post)

Sun Aug 31, 2014, 07:32 PM

14. A DU'er posted the "Twitter Feed" for the Prostests....Here:

Follow the hashtag #NotoNATO this week on Twitter to see the events unfold

I haven't checked it out yet...but, that's the "Twitter Link" they posted to see what's going on there with the Protesters.

This seems to be the Link..Events begin tomorrow..this seems to be the set up:

http://www.no-to-nato.org/author/notonato/page/3/

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Response to KoKo (Reply #14)

Sun Aug 31, 2014, 07:51 PM

15. Thank you, KoKo . . .

 

I love these people. May they open many minds in the next few days.

NO MORE WARS!

NO MORE NATO!

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Response to another_liberal (Reply #15)

Sun Aug 31, 2014, 08:05 PM

16. I'm not a Twitter User but checked the link out and it seems to work...

The Preparations are underway and it seems everything starts tomorrow...but they are updating.

http://www.no-to-nato.org/author/notonato/page/3/

I'll probably check it out since you can read the Twitter Feed without signing up there, it seems.

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Response to another_liberal (Reply #15)

Sun Aug 31, 2014, 11:39 PM

23. NO MORE NATO

 

NO MORE EASTERN EUROPE.

I'll bet about now that certain eastern European countries are glad that NATO exists, otherwise "peaceful Russia" might do to them what they're doing to Ukraine.

You've certainly become the leading cheerleader for Putin's Russia.

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Response to IronGate (Reply #23)

Mon Sep 1, 2014, 07:58 AM

24. What is being "done to Ukraine" is being done by the US . . .

 

We, and to a lesser part our NATO allies, caused the turmoil in Ukraine, and we continue to finance and encourage it. That is not the story line our obedient mass media is currently parroting, but in time everyone will have to admit that is exactly what we have done.

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Response to another_liberal (Reply #24)

Mon Sep 1, 2014, 09:58 AM

28. BULLSHIT.

 

And you've yet to provide any CREDIBLE links that the US caused Russia to invade Ukraine.

I stand by my statement, you're the leading cheerleader here on DU for Putin's Russia, so far, you've excused or cheered on Russia's invasion of Ukraine.
Putin would be so proud of you.

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Response to IronGate (Reply #28)

Tue Sep 2, 2014, 08:49 AM

36. We dealt with that subject back in the Spring . . .

 

You are free to go back and read the numerous replies I made regarding that very subject, however, I am not about to re-fight the same struggle here.

Suffice it to say that History will judge, and it will not deal kindly with our American part in the destruction of modern Ukraine.

As to President Putin: I am in no way a spokesperson for him, and I couldn't care less what he might think of me. I am trying to stop our country's involvement in yet another unnecessary war, and this time around it is a war that could be a great deal more costly (not to mention deadly) to Americans than any of our various little romps through Middle Eastern oil patches here and there have been.

Beware the war-mongers, my friend, now more than ever!

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Response to another_liberal (Reply #15)

Mon Sep 1, 2014, 11:38 AM

29. It ain't going to happen

 

Not in your lifetime...You need to get out more in the real world, where real armed conflict exists for reasons that are not that complex. The United States did not create all the mess or most of the mess in the world.

There are just other factions, countries who wish to harm and inflict pain against the U.S. Regardless, whether we are in their respective countries or not. The U.S. the country you seem to despise and loathe is a beacon and a symbol of freedom and prosperity around the world. That is the bottom line.

We are the pre-eminent power who have helped shaped the latter part of the 20th century into global prosperity. Believe it or not the U.S. has done more good than harm in the world. So if you think that Russia is a much better country than our country, then I am sorry you feel that way.

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Response to another_liberal (Original post)

Tue Sep 2, 2014, 02:36 AM

30. You forgot to mention this story, OP:

Protesters in Russia clash over military action in Crimea
http://news.yahoo.com/video/protesters-russia-clash-over-military-155222870.html

Demonstrators Against War in Ukraine Arrested
http://www.interpretermag.com/russia-this-week-demonstrators-against-war-in-ukraine-arrested/

Since war is something you want to avoid, clearly you should be cheering on these anti-war protesters as well -- Isn't that right??
Aren't you outraged these people were arrested for daring to protest a military action? Or are you still of the mindset that Russia has been 100% above board all this time, and that the U.S. are still the bad guys?? Last I checked, NATO forces haven't fired a round or "accidentally" shot down a civilian jetliner during this conflict...The Russian Army on the other hand...

Maybe Skinner needs to create some pro-Russian subforum and stick you in it...

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Response to Blue_Tires (Reply #30)

Tue Sep 2, 2014, 07:36 AM

31. Skinner?

 

I'm sure he's been asked to do more than that.

Some people, my friend, are so insecure in their intellectual abilities that they fear hearing more than one side of a story. It seems to trouble them deeply to have to apply logic and reason to personally choose between lies and truth, so they huddle together like sheep and accept whatever story line the flock's leaders are pushing. They often respond with anger toward anyone who suggests consideration of another point of view.

Need I add what eventually awaits all sheep who blindly follow the flock wherever it is taken?

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Response to another_liberal (Reply #31)

Tue Sep 2, 2014, 09:05 AM

38. You might want to re-read your post, certainly seems to apply to you as well

 

Russia, in all it's forms has been expansionistic in nature and at the same time paranoid about invasions. Russia's paranoia certainly has basis in fact, although like most who are paranoid, has taken it's paranoia too far.

The fact that Poland and the Baltic states are all nervous about Russia's behavior and what actions it might take is something that should be considered. There was a reason most of the former Warsaw Pact rushed to join Nato, they had just spend 45 years under the thumbs of Russia.

Most of us are willing to consider another point of view and we'll also reject it when it seems ridiculous.

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Response to Lurks Often (Reply #38)

Tue Sep 2, 2014, 04:57 PM

48. Some of what you say is true, no doubt . . .

 

However, people have begun to make justifications for our arming fascists in Ukraine, stationing combat troops in Eastern Europe and, generally, preparing to make war on the Russian Federation, I will oppose those people whenever I can. What they are suggesting is profoundly dangerous to everything I value in this World.

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Response to another_liberal (Reply #31)

Tue Sep 2, 2014, 04:01 PM

45. Truth hurts, doesn't it?

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Response to Blue_Tires (Reply #45)

Tue Sep 2, 2014, 04:49 PM

47. When I hear any . . .

 

I'll let you know right away.

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Response to another_liberal (Original post)

Tue Sep 2, 2014, 08:26 AM

33. Think Estonia might have a different view of the merits of NATO

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Response to Unvanguard (Reply #33)

Tue Sep 2, 2014, 08:36 AM

34. I don't envy them their position . . .

 

A small country caught between greedy, aggressive Western Capitalists and defensively reactive Russia.

I hope they find real peace soon, and not the Orwellian peace NATO promises, as it orders member States to begin a new arms race with the East. Remember, Stalin may have occupied them in 1939, but it was Estonian's armed support for Nazi Germany which cost them their independence for over forty years.

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Response to another_liberal (Reply #34)

Tue Sep 2, 2014, 08:38 AM

35. No, you just want to make them vulnerable to "defensive" Russian invasion and dismemberment

I think they'd rather trust in NATO.

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Response to Unvanguard (Reply #35)

Tue Sep 2, 2014, 08:52 AM

37. Russia hasn't invaded anyone . . .

 

They are not likely to either, unless in the course of responding to an attack by NATO, or it's stooges in Kiev.

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Response to another_liberal (Reply #37)

Tue Sep 2, 2014, 11:21 AM

39. Seriously? Are your search skills and knowledge of history that weak?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_invasions#1800.E2.80.931915

You'll notice Russia, in its many forms, shows up quite a lot.

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Response to Lurks Often (Reply #39)

Tue Sep 2, 2014, 03:13 PM

41. I didn't realize you wanted to start at the Siege of Troy . . .

 

I'm talking about the Russian Federation of today. And don't bring up the Georgian war either, that was a Russian reaction to Georgia's attempt to occupy South Ossetia, a former Soviet territory which did not want to be part of Georgia. When Georgian troops rolled in, with encouragement and advise from the Cheney/Bush administration, the population called to Russia for help, and the Georgians were expelled in short order.



FYI: Here is a link to a Russian popular movie (with English subtitles) about the Georgian war:


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Response to another_liberal (Reply #41)

Tue Sep 2, 2014, 03:45 PM

43. You're naive if you think today's Russian Federation

 

isn't going to act much the same way Russia has always behaved, regardless of who was in power.

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Response to another_liberal (Reply #37)

Tue Sep 2, 2014, 11:50 AM

40. Russia hasn't invaded anybody?

 


You're just too funny.
I suppose those captured paratroopers were just on vacation? Oh wait, no, they got lost.

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Response to Unvanguard (Reply #35)

Wed Sep 3, 2014, 02:46 PM

57. Russia isn't invading anyone, especially not Estonia . . .

 

Lets stay on the planet Earth, at least. This isn't a science fiction forum.

Do you really think there is any chance in hell that Russia would attack a NATO member State? How stupid do you think they are?

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Response to another_liberal (Reply #57)

Wed Sep 3, 2014, 03:42 PM

59. Right. That's why Estonia has good reason to trust in NATO.

You know, the alliance you now think should be abandoned.

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Response to Unvanguard (Reply #59)

Wed Sep 3, 2014, 05:54 PM

60. When I say NATO should be ended, I'm speaking as an American . . .

 

For Americans (other than neo-con "Second American Century" imperialists) NATO offers little more than a dangerous and expensive political burden. Remember what President Washington said about "Foreign entanglements?"

Estonians may feel differently on one level, but do they really want to be on the front line of a nuclear exchange between an imperialist, expansionist NATO and a defensively reacting Russian Federation? If it ever gets close to a real fight between East and West, expect Estonia and a number of other eastern European NATO members to rediscover their neutral traditions very quickly.

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Response to another_liberal (Reply #34)

Wed Sep 3, 2014, 12:44 PM

55. I have to hand it to you.

It takes some chutzpah to namedrop Orwell, and then follow it up with that kind of blatant historical revisionism. The Soviet occupation of the Baltic States was unprovoked and incredibly repressive. And it was in no way some kind of response to Nazi Germany, especially since it was arranged in the Molotov-Ribbentrop treaty.


And your characterizing the contemporary Baltic States as "caught" is laughable. They ran to Western Europe as fast as they could when the Soviet Union collapsed and never looked back, except the occasional nervous glance to make sure they don't have a target pointed on their back.

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Response to another_liberal (Original post)

Wed Sep 3, 2014, 04:04 AM

54. Hope they get even more to join them on Thurday. Good for them. Wish we were with them! n/t

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Response to Judi Lynn (Reply #54)

Wed Sep 3, 2014, 02:52 PM

58. Hear! Hear!

 

I'm ashamed I'm not walking the walk with them either.

There is certainly no more important place to be today, not if one loves peace and values life on our planet.

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