Pro-Russian Rebels Claim Attack on Ukrainian Naval Ship
Source: Voice of America
VOA News
Last updated on: August 31, 2014 12:30 PM
A Ukrainian naval vessel in the Azov Sea was attacked by artillery from the shore on Sunday, and a rescue operation was under way, Ukrainian military spokesman Andriy Lysenko said.
Pro-Russian rebels claimed responsibility for the attack on social media.
Lysenko said the vessel was a naval cutter. There was no information on the number of people on board, Reuters reported.
News of the attack came a short time after a prominent U.S. lawmaker said the United States and Europe should provide arms to Ukraine's military to combat what he called a Russian invasion.
Read more: http://www.voanews.com/content/poroshenko-seeks-european-union-support/2433155.html
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Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)ballyhoo
(2,060 posts)Last edited Sun Aug 31, 2014, 02:10 PM - Edit history (1)
has just fired 30 beams on Kiev. All the libraries are on fire. Petro has his arms full of books and is running madly toward the fountain.
Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)The video shows the two planes attacking the ship
newthinking
(3,982 posts)even the voice of America said it was shelling from ground sources.
Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)Video here
http://inforesist.org/ochevidcy-pod-mariupolem-podbit-ukrainskij-voennyj-kater/
There are also reports of the Russian air force attacking artillery positions in the east near Shchastya
Looks like another escalation by Russia, I am sure RT will say that Putin's boat was shot at by mistake by Ukrainian aircraft.
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)two planes strafe the ship and a large explosion as they fly over it
newthinking
(3,982 posts)Pay attention also to the movements, the "airplane" is incredibly versitile and at several points flys upward without changing it's orientation. If Russia has planes that can do that at speed we are indeed in a great deal of trouble.
Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)I guess you do not see the planes leaving an exhaust trail buzzing the ship and then an explosion.
Never seen birds leave a smokey exhaust trail.
newthinking
(3,982 posts)your imagination run with.
Again, expand your video and watch it. It is the effect of digital photography on distant birds. The internal ccd has trouble tracking the bird, making it's movement and appearance jagged and drop in an out. That is what you are mistaking for a plane.
ballyhoo
(2,060 posts)The Major likes them.
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christx30
(6,241 posts)Putin has trained birds to attack ships at sea. Alfred Hitchcock was right in that documentary.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)KIEV—
A Ukrainian naval vessel in the Azov Sea was attacked by artillery from the shore on Sunday, and a rescue operation was under way, a military spokesman for the Ukrainian government said.
Andriy Lysenko said the vessel was a naval cutter. There was no information on the number of people on board.
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/nationworld/chi-ukraine-russia-crisis-20140831,0,427887.story
bemildred
(90,061 posts)Novoazovsk: Ukrainian forces and residents in Ukraine's eastern port of Mariupol braced for attack yesterday from advancing pro-Russian rebels who Kiev says are backed by a Russian armoured column.
Pro-Russian separatists and Ukrainian troops both used bulldozers to dig trenches on Sunday along the new front, a 40km strip of coastal highway on the Sea of Azov, with battle looming for a city of half a million people.
Troops, supported by local residents and using excavating machinery donated by local companies, were digging earthen emplacements for artillery and dug-outs for infantry.
http://www.watoday.com.au/world/ukrainians-flee-eastern-port-city-amid-fears-of-russianled-attack-20140901-10arbb.html
bemildred
(90,061 posts)NOVOAZOVSK, Ukraine, Aug 31 (Reuters) - Ukrainian forces and residents in Ukraine's eastern port of Mariupol braced for attack on Sunday from advancing pro-Russian rebels who Kiev says are backed by a Russian armoured column in a new offensive that has tipped the balance in a five-month war.
Pro-Russian separatists and Ukrainian troops both used bulldozers to dig trenches on Sunday along the new front, a 40-km (25 mile) strip of coastal highway on the Sea of Azov, with battle looming for a city of half a million people.
Troops, supported by local residents and using excavating machinery donated by local companies, were digging earthen emplacements for artillery and dug-outs for infantry.
Alexandra, 28, a post office clerk with a small Ukrainian yellow and blue ribbon pinned to her dress, said she was ready to join the fight against a possible Russian and rebel attack.
http://www.trust.org/item/20140831151231-yge8y/
bemildred
(90,061 posts)KHABAROVSK, August 31 (RIA Novosti) – Russian President Vladimir Putin said Sunday he came to terms with his Ukrainian counterpart Petro Poroshenko that the crisis in Ukraine will be resolved in a peaceful manner.
"I think that it is a very good lesson for all of us, a lesson to end this tragedy as quickly as possible, and by peaceful means and through negotiation, as we have agreed, by the way, with Petro Oleksiyovych [Poroshenko], and to never repeat such mistakes, which have been recently made in Ukraine during the armed seizure of power. Indeed, it is the root cause of what is happening now," Putin said in an interview with Russia’s Channel One.
It is necessary to start the substantial negotiations with southeastern regions of Ukraine to de-escalate the crisis there, Putin added.
On Friday, Poroshenko said he expects that implementation of his peace plan for the crisis in eastern Ukraine can stop the war in the region in early September.
http://en.ria.ru/world/20140831/192507925/Putin-Says-Has-Agreement-With-Poroshenko-on-Peaceful-Settlement.html
bemildred
(90,061 posts)Prague - The Russian steps in Ukraine are an invasion and the peace plan of Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko is the only way out of the crisis there, Czech Prime Minister Bohuslav Sobotka told the Questions of Vaclav Moravec discussion on public Czech Television today.
Sanctions against Russia have not been efficient so far, he added.
The Czech Republic has reserved the right to disagree with part of the EU´s proposal for tightening sanctions against Russia if they caused disproportionately high economic losses and the government will debate them next week, Sobotka (Social Democrats, CSSD) said after the EU summit in Brussels.
The right-wing opposition sharply criticised Sobotka for his reserved stance on further sanctions.
http://www.ceskenoviny.cz/news/zpravy/only-diplomacy-not-sanctions-can-solve-ukrainian-crisis-czech-pm/1117725?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=feed
bemildred
(90,061 posts)Ukraine and Russia swapped soldiers who had entered each other's territory near the battlefield in eastern Ukraine, where Kiev says Moscow's forces have come to the aid of pro-Russian insurgents advancing for an assault on a major port.
Ukrainian troops and local residents were reinforcing the port of Mariupol on Sunday, the next big city in the path of pro-Russian fighters who pushed back government forces along the Azov Sea this past week in an offensive on a new front.
The new rebel advance has drawn increasing concern from Ukraine's Western allies, who say its success is a result of reinforcement by armored columns of Russian troops.
European Union leaders agreed on Saturday to draw up new economic sanctions against Moscow, a move hailed by the United States, which is planning tighter sanctions of its own and wants to act jointly with Europe.
http://www.todayszaman.com/world_moscow-and-kiev-swap-troops-as-ukraine-port-girds-for-rebel-assault_357269.html
bemildred
(90,061 posts)White House sources have indicated that the introduction of American arms into the conflict between the Ukraine and Russia could exacerbate tensions, but Arizona senator John McCain thinks differently: “For God’s sake,” he said on CBS’s Face the Nation, “can’t we help these people defend themselves? This is not an incursion, it’s an invasion.”
To host Major Garrett’s question whether the Ukraine and Russia are in a war, McCain answered: “I think from the Ukrainian standpoint you would say that. [Putin] is accomplishing a land bridge all the way to Crimea, and he may threaten Moldova and the Baltics if he continues to succeed.
“[This] is a conflict that requires our participation, not through American ground troops, but our participation and our help and our leadership, and that is what seems to be missing.”
http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/386760/mccain-gods-sake-cant-us-help-ukrainians-defend-themselves-ian-tuttle
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)bemildred
(90,061 posts)
jakeXT
(10,575 posts)...
Menendez said that providing defensive equipment to Ukraine's military “may very well be on the table right now” within the administration due to the “changed circumstances.”
He dismissed concerns that such action would provoke Russian President Vladimir Putin into greater military against Kiev, saying the Kremlin only responded to Western weakness and leaders could change their aggressive stance once soldiers start “coming back in body bags.”
Menendez ruled out the possibility of sending in U.S. or NATO troops to face Russian forces, calling instead for “sectoral sanctions” against Moscow’s financial services, defense and energy sectors.
Read more: http://thehill.com/policy/defense/216320-menendez-us-should-provide-arms-to-ukraine-to-fight-russian-invasion
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)Count on The Hill to do that.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)jakeXT
(10,575 posts)"We ... should be providing the Ukrainians with the types of defensive weapons that will impose a cost upon (Russian President Vladimir) Putin for further aggression,"
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/08/31/us-ukraine-crisis-usa-lawmakers-idUSKBN0GV0JR20140831
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)What is the context because "everything on the table" sound bite also being said puts it in context.
jakeXT
(10,575 posts)http://cnnpressroom.blogs.cnn.com/2014/08/31/senator-menendez-on-cnns-state-of-the-union-russia-in-ukraine-is-clearly-an-invasion/
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)So the opinion is really that "we need to consult with our allies and everything is on the table" ....how did that turn into an ant-Obama screed?
Freaky propaganda media, they dot it all the time.
The truth is in the "....".
Reuters is the mother of mass propaganda.
christx30
(6,241 posts)I would say, "you are brilliant. Anyone that argues against you is an idiot." The propagandists would say my quote said, "you are...an idiot." You wanna know the truth, looks for those "..." Every time. Therein lies the truth.
Igel
(35,300 posts)They talk.
I suggest we find a diplomatic solution to Assad and the IS in the Middle East. We should encourage the parties to have talks over state status and such with ISIS. There is no military solution. Violence is never the answer.
Heck, there was no military solution to an expansionist Germany in the 1930s because there could be none. There was no military solution to Stalingrad. It was only after we all finally sat down for multilateral talks with all the stakeholders that any progress was made on resolving the threat of conflict in Europe.
Same for secessionists in 1861. There could and was no military solution. Violence was not part of the answer.
You rule out part of a solution, you rule out any solution. Sanctions have worked so well. I keep hearing this. They worked in getting Crimea returned to Ukraine, they worked so well in producing a two-sided cease fire in Ukraine, they worked so well in getting everybody agreed on humanitarian aid. They worked in stopping Russian funding. In stopping Russian armament deliveries. In stopping Russian bombardments. In stopping Russian incursions. The only way they've worked is in making things better compared to hypothetical situations, which is how a lot of economic "successes" worked for a long time. (Every single verifiable measure for years flopped--"if we do X, we'll get Y" never resulted in Y. But "it's predicted that without X we'd now have Y" always gave great results. If it was testable, failure; if unfalsifiable, success. That's a religion, not a science.)
Thing is, this isn't a new discussion. Every discussion of non-violence has the same one. Non-violence and discussions work fine as long as both sides can have a common goal and value non-violence. That worked against Western imperialism to a phenomenal degree, but only in the mid 1900s. Projecting this to all situations is somewhere between mental illness and simple foolishness. When there are diametrically opposing goals, you get nothing.
The goal for many in this case is a weakened US and NATO. Any sacrifice, no matter how great, provided we don't have to pay it is acceptable. And to retain the moral purity that individual neuroses require we must decree that anything that furthers this goal must be good. Even if we have to believe that 100 tanks materialize out of nowhere, that's okay. Dead Russians in Pskov ... Can't be, so there aren't. Again, we're talking faith, religion.
Nunc dimittis, pax russica vobis.
elias49
(4,259 posts)bemildred
(90,061 posts)amandabeech
(9,893 posts)get this guy offa me."
Throughout this conflict, I have thought that negotiations were the way to go.
Putin's actions in the last several days, starting with those white trucks and whatever they were carrying in and out, and now with possible airpower, make me wonder if there is something more we could do to help Ukraine militarily, but would not be too provacative.
Putin has the bit in his teeth, and he may just keep going. I doubt that there is anyone in his inner circle who is advising him to back off.
It seems that Putin increasingly sees the world through 19th and even 18th century eyes in which the strong countries gobble up the weak. And he seems increasingly paranoid. None of this can come to good, and I'm afraid that he has plans to go too far.
Please, somebody convince me that I'm wrong.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)Big fancy substantive talks. In the news all the time too. Miltary action just gives him the excuse to continue, and you are quite right, he will.
amandabeech
(9,893 posts)The President has always seemed to me to be either hostile to or disinterested in Europe, whether it be Eastern, Central, Western, or UK. We have a good amount of trade with those places, our financial systems are rather intertwined, and we do have a long-standing military alliance with most Euro countries. He is ahistorical, and seemingly willing to dump our old friends for new ones.
He's also outsourced the whole problem to Merkel, who seemed like she was doing well with the situation, but obviously, whatever she was doing (or wasn't on account of German business interests) fundamentally is not working. In fact, the fact that it looked like it was working may have been something of a "maskirovka" (sp) for Putin.
I know that Ukraine is not a NATO country, and I believe that many Ukrainians (probably the majority) want to look west first, while keeping a decent trade relationship with Russia and other non-NATO post USSR states. But realistically, we helped bring them to this position, starting with the Orange Revolution back in 2004 (which someone here recently pointed out), and the Powell Rule applies at least to some degree. We encouraged them to turn west, and now we must help or expect our word to be mud for some time.
I swear, if Putin is to be mauled by a Siberian tiger while on vacation, now is the time.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)And Putin has taken advantage of it.
Your comment about Obama and Europe is interesting, I had not thought about it, but it feels sort of right. I think he does not care for Putin, and, like Merkel, he hopes the problem will fix itself or go away.
You know what I think about Merkels conduct in this.
I am reminded of the original reactions back in the Spring about Putin being in another world, there is still a lot of cognitive disconnect going on, people who were sure of themselves not getting the results they expect.
And I am reminded of our conversations in the Spring about how this would go and the folly of military action.
amandabeech
(9,893 posts)But I do remember the discussion of Merkel's statements about Putin being in another world. Frankly, I thought that he would come to his senses before he decided to deprive Ukraine of its Black Sea ports, and make a drive into a more central European position like his possible drive to Transneistra (sp). But now, he's acting like one of the most incorigible czars.
Poroshenko is trying to negotiate, but Putin is trying to obfuscate.
Perhaps the US should become a Latin or Pacific nation, as it seems this President wants, and take lightly the now aggressive military actions of a major, not regional, power. Personally, I'd rather that we would take lightly some of the eternal non-sense that goes on in the Middle East, instead.
What action would you recommend for our President here?
How would you move Putin back to his own borders?
bemildred
(90,061 posts)Make him eat his words. Stop giving him cover for aggression. He can't just do whatever he wants any more than Obama. He may not be a nice guy, but he's not Hitler, and the Russian military is not the Wehrmacht. Stop all the dick waving. This all started with an argument over which side Ukraine must choose. That is the original error. Ukraine should not have to choose. Ukraine should be the "Borderlands" the place in the middle, the path for commerce and trade. You won't get Crimea back. The demographics of Ukraine make it quite clear that when you make it an ethnic conflict, you divide the country. Divisive politics divides.
And then there's still the problem of rebuilding Ukraine after decades of venal misrule, if you don't fix that then all the rest of this discussion will prove futile.
Edit: And the present course is destroying what was left of the Ukrainian military. That may be good for military related businesses, but it's not good for Ukraine.
newthinking
(3,982 posts)Europe makes an agreement with The rest of Ukraine. In other words Ukraine would benefit by full trade with both sides. Maybe I don't understand something about trade negotiations but that would seem to me to be a prosperous and more neutral way for Ukraine to go. Not sure if it is possible at this point though. I guess we will see.
I personally think that this was indeed really about a tug of war to pull Ukraine away from Russia (with the byproduct of disaster capitalism) and essentially Putin and the rebels not going along put an end to it.
Make no mistake though, no matter how satisfactory the resolution the neocons/neolib alliance will likely be back to try again.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)And May:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=795195
I don't mean to mischaracterize your views, but I remember discussing this with you back around the time of the little green men in Crimea, and that we largely agreed on the situation and on the likely outcome, which much resembled what we see now.
And this one:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=780877
amandabeech
(9,893 posts)and despite a few posts back in April and May that I made from an internet cafe very far away from my current location, all that seems rather blurry today. I do intend to re-read those threads, though, when I am in a better frame of mind than I am today. Just the thought of blasting one problem (Putin) back to the stone age might make me feel a little better about the other stuff! Thank heavens I don't have access codes to the football!
I will say though that I think that best place for Ukraine might be to look west a bit more than to look east, but to have good trade relations and stable borders in all directions, at for the next 5-10 years. But now it will be difficult to get back to that point with the vacationing Russian soldiers in eastern and southeastern Ukraine.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)ballyhoo
(2,060 posts)coast on the Sea of Azov into a beautiful paradise. It is already supposed to be very nice. Moscow already looks like Beverly Hills.
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amandabeech
(9,893 posts)I see no reason why Ukraine and Russia cannot each have their own resort areas. It looks like there is plenty to share.
ballyhoo
(2,060 posts)The Major likes to ride his horse on the beach, and it would not like course sand.
newthinking
(3,982 posts)where they are.
My understanding is that it was the International Republican Institute who may have encouraged and sponsored the training of Right Sector in Poland (before the coup)
bemildred
(90,061 posts)Pro-Russian separatists were preparing a fresh offensive on a key coastal location in eastern Ukraine on Sunday, as EU leaders gave Moscow one week to curb its support for the rebels or face new sanctions.
A ragtag mix of volunteer battalions and local residents were bracing for a desperate defence of Mariupol, a strategic port city and the last big town in the region still under Ukrainian control.
“We can hold them off, but for how long? We don’t have the strength to beat them,” said Panther, a tattooed fighter with the Azov battalion, said to be one of the most radical nationalist groups fighting in the area.
The renewed rebel assault of the past week has raised fears in Brussels that the conflict in eastern Ukraine could descend into a “full-scale war” with Russia that risks engulfing the entire continent.
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/08/31/ukrainian-rebels-prepare-for-renewed-offensive-as-eu-threatens-russia-with-sanctions/
amandabeech
(9,893 posts)My guess is that Tusk's parents and older relatives know all too well what a rampaging Russia can do, and what a rampaging Germany can do. He may at least talk tougher than Van R.
Rasmussen is still in at NATO, I believe, and he's the most war-like Dane that I can recall. He must have a great deal of Viking DNA--he sounds like he's ready to become a Berzerker at the drop of horned helmet.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)I don't know much about it though. European politics is too byzantine for me to keep up with.
Rasmussen is an annoying blowhard. I tend to take it as career building mainly.
jakeXT
(10,575 posts)In a clear reference to Mogherini, Lithuania's President Dalia Grybauskaitė said that the EU must not pick someone who is “pro-Kremlin”—an exaggerated charge, perhaps, but indicative of the sensitivity and concern her candidacy has caused. But above all is the view that others are better qualified to deal with the Russian challenge—not just in terms of years clocked on the foreign policy beat but in the substance of what they say and do about it. Carl Bildt, Sweden’s foreign minister, is a leading example. Polish Minister of Foreign Affairs Radek Sikorski is another. Bulgaria’s Kristalina Georgieva, currently EU commissioner for humanitarian aid, would be a good compromise candidate.
http://www.brookings.edu/blogs/up-front/posts/2014/08/italian-foreign-minister-mogherini-europe-wright
Her appointment on Saturday to replace the UK’s Lady Ashton, is a sign of the clout that Matteo Renzi, Italy’s 39-year-old prime minister, wields in Brussels while Italy holds the bloc’s six-month rotating presidency.
Mr Renzi was able to overcome opposition to his favoured candidate by intensive lobbying of the holdouts and because Angela Merkel, German chancellor, eventually decided to give her support. The German leader has told her colleagues that there are bigger battles with Rome ahead, including on economic policy.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/9d89485e-2f9f-11e4-87d9-00144feabdc0.html
amandabeech
(9,893 posts)economic policy."
As bemildred and I were discussing above, Merkel has previously stated that Putin is living in another universe. To me, he appears to be living in the past.
Obviously, Merkel's words with Putin have not stopped his recent escalation of the fighting in Ukraine. Perhaps Merkel thinks that the problems will stop there, but considering that Putin seems to believe that he is a 19th century czar, will Putin be satisfied only with parts of Ukraine and Moldova?
Better yet, will Merkel and the economically advanced Euro countries continue to discuss their economic problems while Budapest burns?
This seems to be an old-fashioned railroad roundhouse where no train can go out on a track different from the one on which it arrived.
jakeXT
(10,575 posts)And maybe losing some battles will help get Kiev to negotiate
http://online.wsj.com/articles/russia-ukraine-trade-captured-soldiers-1409491770
...
‘If these are European values, I’m badly disappointed’
Ukrainians who did not support the coup mounted by “our western partners” with the backing of radical nationalists, are being suppressed by the military force, Putin said speaking about the situation in the neighboring state. “We’re no fools. We saw symbolic cookies handed out on (by Victoria Nuland) Maidan, information support, political support. What that means? A full involvement of the US and European nations into the process of the power change: a violent unconstitutional power change.”
Read More at inserbia.info/today/2014/08/putin-anything-us-touches-turns-into-libya-or-iraq/ © InSerbia News
...
While "regime change" is too strong a term for what Germany is seeking, it's not entirely off base. Merkel's center-right Christian Democratic Union (CDU) and the European People's Party (EPP), a family of European conservative parties, have chosen Klitschko as their de facto representative in Ukraine. His job is to unite and lead the opposition -- on the street, in parliament and, finally, in the 2015 presidential election. "Klitschko is our man," say senior EPP politicians, "he has a clear European agenda." And Merkel still has a score to settle with Putin.
Ally in the Chancellery
Much of the work happens behind the scenes. Klitschko's party, the Ukrainian Democratic Alliance for Reform (UDAR), formed in 2010, became an observer member of the EPP recently. EPP offices in Brussels and Budapest are training UDAR personnel for parliamentary work and providing support in the development of a nationwide party structure. The Konrad Adenauer Foundation, which is closely aligned with the CDU, also plays an important role, and Klitschko has expressly asked Merkel's advisors for help from the foundation. Four UDAR members of the Ukrainian parliament paid a visit to Berlin last week, where they met with German CDU lawmakers and officials from both the labor and justice ministries. For some time, the Adenauer Foundation has been preparing Ukrainian opposition politicians to assume responsibility in the context of a "dialogue program."
...
http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/eu-grooms-boxer-vitali-klitschko-to-lead-ukraine-opposition-a-938079.html
amandabeech
(9,893 posts)I cannot say anything positive about boundary change by force nor those who espouse such change.
jakeXT
(10,575 posts)Germany to Send Rifles, Tank Busters to Aid Kurds
BERLIN — Aug 31, 2014, 4:43 PM ET
By FRANK JORDANS Associated Press
Associated Press
Germany will send high-end rifles, tank-busting weapons and armored vehicles to aid Kurdish fighters battling Islamic extremists in Iraq, officials said Sunday.
Germany's defense minister said the arms would be sent in three shipments, starting in September, and would initially be enough to equip a brigade of 4,000 Peshmerga fighters.
"This is in our security interest," Ursula von der Leyen told reporters in Berlin.
Germany joins other European countries who have pledged to provide arms to the Kurds fighting the Islamic State group that has swept into northern Iraq in recent months.
http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/germany-send-rifles-tank-busters-aid-kurds-25197175
...
Turkey is far less opposed to Kurdistan independence than it once was, because having Muslim, but relatively secular Kurdistan as your southern neighbor is much more attractive even to the Turkish military than living next to the mass murderers associated with the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria (ISIS). Nor is ISIS a friend of Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan's Muslim Brotherhood favorites.
But that doesn't settle the matter. Maliki will not accept either the independence of Kurdistan nor the lines the Kurds have drawn as their desired borders. Tehran will back him to the hilt because eastern Kurdistan is in Iran. There is no greater fear for the Islamic Republic of Iran — which isn't much more than half Persian — than unleashing ethnic strife within its own borders. Sooner or later Maliki, with Iranian backing, will go to war to recover as much of Kurdistan as he can. The same is likely to be true of just about any conceivable successor, whether Shiite or Sunni, autocrat or democrat. Many Arab Iraqis are almost as worked up about Kirkuk as Kurds and Turkmen.
Nor will Arab Iraq stay together if Kurdistan succeeds in departing. The Sunnis would get the short end of the stick: Sunnistan with any conceivable borders largely lacks oil. It may have significant quantities of gas, but it will take years and billions of dollars in investment to bring it to market. Shiitestan would be far better off, but just for that reason you can expect Sunnistan not to leave it in peace. Nor will Sunnistan, perhaps unified with the eastern part of Syria to form the much hoped for ISIS caliphate, leave Kurdistan, Turkey or the United States in peace. The Americans will be droning on for years, if not decades.
...
Don't buy the partition of Iraq or Syria. It may be what happens, but Washington should oppose it. The fact that Iran will take the same position doesn't mean it is wrong.
Read more: http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/international/213358-partition-of-iraq-is-not-a-good-idea
bemildred
(90,061 posts)bemildred
(90,061 posts)Separatist rebels attacked a Ukrainian naval vessel in the Azov Sea by firing artillery from the shore, and a Ukrainian military spokesman said a rescue operation was under way.
Spokesman Andriy Lysenko said the vessel was a naval cutter. There was no information on the number of people on board.
Pro-Russian separatists claimed responsibility for the attack.
The separatists have been fighting government forces since April in a conflict that has killed some 2,600 people, but this was the first naval attack of the war.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0831/640506-ukraine-naval/
bemildred
(90,061 posts)MOSCOW (Reuters) - The deputy leader of a breakaway east Ukrainian region said he would take part in talks with representatives of Moscow and Kiev on Monday but did not expect a breakthrough, Russia's Itar-Tass news agency reported.
Andrei Purgin, deputy prime minister of the rebels' self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic, told Tass the meeting of the so-called Contact Group in the Belarussian capital Minsk would be "only a first step in negotiations".
"The reference point has not changed," he said. "Each side will present the list of questions it is ready to discuss."
Presidents Vladimir Putin of Russia and Petro Poroshenko of Ukraine agreed last week to reconvene the Contact Group, which also includes the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE), in an effort to end the war in east Ukraine in which about 2,600 people have been killed.
https://in.news.yahoo.com/rebel-number-two-join-ukraine-peace-talks-monday-194119459.html
newthinking
(3,982 posts)Sounds like this may indeed be the real thing.
