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Purveyor

(29,876 posts)
Tue Aug 26, 2014, 01:08 PM Aug 2014

Putin Warns on Ukraine's Ties with West

Source: Dow Jones Business News

Russian President Vladimir Putin focused on trade issues in his first comments at peace talks on Ukraine on Tuesday, threatening to scrap trade preferences with its neighbor if Kiev follows through on its plans to pursue closer relations with Europe.

Mr. Putin and Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko met for the first time in two months at the hotly awaited talks in Minsk, Belarus. They were joined by officials from the European Union, Belarus and Kazakhstan, all of whom stressed the need to end the bloodshed in eastern Ukraine, where an estimated 2,000 people have been killed since the onset of fighting in April.

"Today in Minsk, without any question, the fate of the world and the fate of Europe are being decided," Mr. Poroshenko said.

Mr. Putin, however, stressed trade issues, highlighting the dangers he said Russia faces if Ukraine pursues closer ties to the West. Since the onset of the crisis, Mr. Putin has accused the West of meddling in Ukraine's internal affairs, and trying to spoil its relations with Russia by luring it into an association agreement.




Read more: http://www.nasdaq.com/article/putin-warns-on-ukraines-ties-with-west-20140826-00710

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Putin Warns on Ukraine's Ties with West (Original Post) Purveyor Aug 2014 OP
The "dangers" of closer ties to the West? Its been real "dangerous" for the other neighbors? 7962 Aug 2014 #1
Breakup of Ukraine is the only sensible scenario. cosmicone Aug 2014 #2
Who decides on a breakup? All the people of Ukraine? Each province, town or neighborhood? pampango Aug 2014 #4
Heck .. we threw a hissyfit when Cuba cosmicone Aug 2014 #7
You neglected to explain how Ukraine is to be broken up. Does the West just work a deal with Russia pampango Aug 2014 #8
We reacted when they put missiles there -- it was not closer trade relations karynnj Aug 2014 #11
Only the US can decide reorg Aug 2014 #13
Agree about the US staying out. Are you saying that Ukraine's neighbors and trade pampango Aug 2014 #14
But apparently they don't reorg Aug 2014 #15
I take it that you are not in favor of foreign powers drawing new maps. On that we agree. pampango Aug 2014 #16
the fear is that the US want first-strike capability reorg Aug 2014 #17
Putin: The creepy ex-boyfriend who can't just let it go. Throd Aug 2014 #3
Pres. Putin certainly appears to want peace... at the end of a bayonet. LanternWaste Aug 2014 #5
His "warning" tell you all you need to know what its all about for Putin Elmergantry Aug 2014 #6
Why do we listen to Vladolf Putler at all? True Blue Door Aug 2014 #9
He has a large army and thinks that diplomatic/military success will 'rejuvenate' Russia. n/t pampango Aug 2014 #10
That's why the NSA and CIA need to "listen" to Putin. True Blue Door Aug 2014 #12
 

7962

(11,841 posts)
1. The "dangers" of closer ties to the West? Its been real "dangerous" for the other neighbors?
Tue Aug 26, 2014, 01:33 PM
Aug 2014

Estonia, Latvia, etc. The only "danger" is that Putin may invade you if you have closer ties with the west.
What a joke.

 

cosmicone

(11,014 posts)
2. Breakup of Ukraine is the only sensible scenario.
Tue Aug 26, 2014, 01:37 PM
Aug 2014

Especially if Svoboda and Right Sektor want to be more European than Slavic.

pampango

(24,692 posts)
4. Who decides on a breakup? All the people of Ukraine? Each province, town or neighborhood?
Tue Aug 26, 2014, 02:48 PM
Aug 2014

Or does the West negotiate directly with Russia on who get what and just tell Ukrainians that's how it is?

And if Svoboda and Right Sektor don't do any better in October's parliamentary election than they did in May's presidential election (they got 1.8% combined) it won't really matter what they want.

 

cosmicone

(11,014 posts)
7. Heck .. we threw a hissyfit when Cuba
Tue Aug 26, 2014, 04:01 PM
Aug 2014

decided to be friends with the USSR ... and Cuba is not even geographically contiguous with the US.

How will we react if Mexico decides to be friends with Russia and have Russian naval bases in Ensenada and Matamoros? Will we say, "that is what the Mexicans want" and do nothing?

The government in Kiev is a puppet. The whole world knows it no matter how much we are in denial about it. Yanukovytch was the leader elected in full and fair elections. If we had waited till the next elections, we'd have known what the population wanted .. but no .. we decided to have a coup complete with Victoria Nuland's cookies....

Now we'll never know what Ukrainians want. We know what the CIA wants and what Putin wants though.

pampango

(24,692 posts)
8. You neglected to explain how Ukraine is to be broken up. Does the West just work a deal with Russia
Tue Aug 26, 2014, 04:36 PM
Aug 2014

along the lines of the 1938 agreement with Germany in which it got Czechoslovakia in exchange for 'peace in our time'. Hitler really, really wanted it because so many ethnic Germans lived there.

Do we allow the Ukrainian people to have a say in what happens to their country? Perhaps through elections? (Or are they not "evolved" enough for that?) Or do some non-Ukrainians make a deal with some other non-Ukrainians and then tell them what will happen to their country?

How will we react if Mexico decides to be friends with Russia and have Russian naval bases in Ensenada and Matamoros? Will we say, "that is what the Mexicans want" and do nothing?

Mexico could join a "free trade" association with Russia or China or anyone else and the US could not care less. Mexico already has a trade agreement with the EU while the US does not.

Of course, Russia's naval base in Crimea was in absolutely no danger of disappearing. They had just signed a new long-term lease a few years earlier.


Yanukovytch was the leader elected in full and fair elections. If we had waited till the next elections, we'd have known what the population wanted .. but no .. we decided to have a coup ...

Indeed he was. In February he signed an agreement to stay in office and run the government until new elections were held in December. He still controlled the army and security services. Then the next day he decided to leave - and went to Russia. Not coincidentally, Russia is the one country that has benefited from the crisis - see its annexation of Crimea.

The elections that were scheduled for December are now to occur in October. "If we had waited till the next elections, we'd have known what the population wanted ..." Fortunately the 'next elections' are still going to happen, so we should know "what the population wants".

karynnj

(59,475 posts)
11. We reacted when they put missiles there -- it was not closer trade relations
Tue Aug 26, 2014, 05:33 PM
Aug 2014

As to Russian Mexican bases -- the equivalent, which are not even being discussed by anyone, would be US Ukrainian bases. You apparently missed that John Kerry, as Obama's representative, essentially renounced the Monroe Doctrine.

Nuland's cookies did not cause anything except many comments from you and others.

reorg

(3,317 posts)
13. Only the US can decide
Tue Aug 26, 2014, 06:48 PM
Aug 2014

whether to stay the hell out and leave Ukraine, its neighbours and trade partners to find a resolution.

pampango

(24,692 posts)
14. Agree about the US staying out. Are you saying that Ukraine's neighbors and trade
Wed Aug 27, 2014, 05:39 AM
Aug 2014

partners should have a say in if and how Ukraine is broken up?

reorg

(3,317 posts)
15. But apparently they don't
Wed Aug 27, 2014, 07:01 AM
Aug 2014

I recently listened to an interview with a famous spy, "Topas", a high level NATO career official who worked for the GDR intelligence service HVA). He pointed out the US strategy of establishing a new wall between "old" Europe and Russia by building one NATO base after the other and at the same time sowing economic conflict among them such as currently through sanctions.



That seems to be working right now. Not only will EU business and industry suffer, the South Stream pipeline is currently on hold and who knows what is going to happen when the pipelines in Ukraine are going to be sold off.

So, there are interests at stake, it's not only about more profits for Ukrainian oligarchs and foreign investors in the oil and gas industry. The people in Europe, not just Ukrainians will be directly affected. Don't be surprised if the EU and Russia are doing everything in their power to manage the conflict.

As to whether they "should have a say" in Ukrainian administrative matters, it depends on their persuasive powers, I guess. They'll only have a say if they are listened to. Wouldn't be the first time that a foreign country draws new maps. I vividly remember my surprise when I saw the draft for carving up Bosnia in the early nineties ... presented by the British Foreign Secretary at the time. It looked like the current map of the West Bank. Did the US and other NATO countries have a say in the break-up of Yugoslavia? I guess they made it very clear with their bombs, their mercenaries, their covert delivery of weapons and most of all through ceaseless, massive propaganda that they had.

pampango

(24,692 posts)
16. I take it that you are not in favor of foreign powers drawing new maps. On that we agree.
Wed Aug 27, 2014, 09:57 AM
Aug 2014

There are NATO bases in Hungary. That does not make the Hungarian government exactly pro-EU/US. In fact, the Hungarian prime minister has been a vocal critic of the US and EU and a vocal supporter of Putin and Russia during the Ukraine crisis. Just because a country has a NATO base should not make it a scary place to Mr. Putin.

NATO is not going to invade Russia. If Putin wants to wave the 'be afraid of NATO' flag to scare his voters, he would not be the first conservative politician to play the "be afraid of foreigners" card to fire up his citizens.

reorg

(3,317 posts)
17. the fear is that the US want first-strike capability
Wed Aug 27, 2014, 11:25 AM
Aug 2014

which they have always been trying to achieve. As far as I understand it could be achieved once Russia is completely surrounded. The Russian fear is not necessarily that this is an immediate threat, but that the American military might think it is possible and the US administration might act accordingly - at some point.

As we have seen in the past, in the long run it doesn't really matter who the president is, their policies, however different in theory, work hand in hand in the end. Bush I. promised not to extend NATO to the east. The next president already broke that promise. Then Clinton violated international law by bombing Yugoslavia without Security Council resolution - (allegedly) for purely humanitarian reasons, and thus set the precedent for blatant disregard for the voice of other members of the Security Council. As we all know, Bush's follow-up on this was much more reckless, unprincipled and catastrophic, but it didn't occur in an empty space and wasn't even opposed by a majority of Democratic representatives, if I remember correctly.

So, whatever purpose the current administration may have (or not), whatever promises they make - I seriously doubt that it will alleviate Russian fears that the current situation is another step towards full spectrum dominance and I can understand that.

The politics of one particular administration in one particular NATO country are not really the point here. Once a NATO basis is there, it is going to stay, for a very very long time. And Putin has demonstrated that he will not go down in history as another Gorbachev who was so naive as to trust mere promises. He is going to do whatever he can to prevent it.

 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
5. Pres. Putin certainly appears to want peace... at the end of a bayonet.
Tue Aug 26, 2014, 03:08 PM
Aug 2014

Pres. Putin certainly appears to want peace... at the end of a bayonet.

True Blue Door

(2,969 posts)
9. Why do we listen to Vladolf Putler at all?
Tue Aug 26, 2014, 04:40 PM
Aug 2014

The man's statements and those of his government have no information content. He could literally be curb-stomping puppies in front of your face while accusing the West of being uncompassionate...and hypocritical.

True Blue Door

(2,969 posts)
12. That's why the NSA and CIA need to "listen" to Putin.
Tue Aug 26, 2014, 06:05 PM
Aug 2014

But he's proven that his public comments - at least those directed to the outside world - have little or no relevance to his actions.

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