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Thu Mar 29, 2012, 06:36 PM

NEW WITNESS CONFIRMS TRAYVON MARTIN WAS THE VICTIM

Last edited Thu Mar 29, 2012, 08:26 PM - Edit history (4)

Source: Redding News Review

CNN spokeswoman told the press in three separate emails:

"Tonight on Anderson Cooper 360į, new eyewitness - who has never told their story and actually saw the shooting take place - speaks to Anderson Cooper. The eyewitness Ė who has asked to remain anonymous - will describe what happened the night Trayvon Martin was shot."

Anderson Cooper: What did you observe after the shot?

Eyewitness: As I said it was dark, but after the shot, obviously someone, one man got up and it was kind of like that period of him Ė I canít say I actually watched him get up Ė but maybe it was only in a couple seconds or so that he was walking towards where I was watching. And I could see him a little bit clearer, and see that he was a Hispanic man and he was, you know, he didnít appear hurt or anything else, he just kind of seemed very, worried or whatever, walked on the sidewalk at that point, with his hand up to his forehead and then another man came out with a flashlight.

http://www.cnn.com/video/?hpt=hp_t2#/video/bestoftv/2012/03/29/ac-trayvon-martin-witness-not-hurt.cnn

Read more: http://www.reddingnewsreview.com/newspages/2012newspages/new_witness_confirms_trayvon_mar_12_1000044.htm



The witness told CNN he saw part of the struggle between Zimmerman and Trayvon and then saw Trayvon dead on the ground face down, the transcript shows.
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/os-trayvon-martin-anonymous-witness-20120329,0,801211.story


[div class="excerpt"]On Anderson Cooper
Anonymous Witness
5:00 pst

closed window
heard voices
after voices, seeing 2 people on ground
one on top of the other

opened window
loud predominant voice, this is not a regular conversation...

2 men on ground one on top of the other, something horrible, yell for help, something painful
then gun shots (more like a pop, more than one pop)

After the larger man got off - there was a boy, now dead...

Eyewitness: As I said it was dark, but after the shot, obviously someone, one man got up and it was kind of like that period of him Ė I canít say I actually watched him get up Ė but maybe it was only in a couple seconds or so that he was walking towards where I was watching. And I could see him a little bit clearer, and see that he was a Hispanic man and he was, you know, he didnít appear hurt or anything else, he just kind of seemed very, worried or whatever, walked on the sidewalk at that point, with his hand up to his forehead and then another man came out with a flashlight.





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Reply NEW WITNESS CONFIRMS TRAYVON MARTIN WAS THE VICTIM (Original post)
kpete Mar 2012 OP
Auntie Bush Mar 2012 #1
JDPriestly Mar 2012 #79
Allymax Mar 2012 #86
magical thyme Mar 2012 #2
Honeycombe8 Mar 2012 #7
magical thyme Mar 2012 #11
HereSince1628 Mar 2012 #23
Honeycombe8 Mar 2012 #26
magical thyme Mar 2012 #46
flamingdem Mar 2012 #49
yardwork Mar 2012 #95
magical thyme Mar 2012 #28
grasswire Mar 2012 #33
magical thyme Mar 2012 #45
robinlynne Mar 2012 #68
JDPriestly Mar 2012 #80
geckosfeet Mar 2012 #51
Dan Mar 2012 #55
Allymax Mar 2012 #85
KansDem Mar 2012 #87
Allymax Mar 2012 #88
Dont call me Shirley Mar 2012 #3
1StrongBlackMan Mar 2012 #4
yardwork Mar 2012 #9
robinlynne Mar 2012 #69
yardwork Mar 2012 #94
robinlynne Mar 2012 #100
Ken Burch Mar 2012 #21
SteveABG Mar 2012 #5
Hoyt Mar 2012 #6
TrollBuster9090 Mar 2012 #18
shawn703 Mar 2012 #8
yardwork Mar 2012 #10
SteveABG Mar 2012 #16
pnwmom Mar 2012 #19
SteveABG Mar 2012 #22
yardwork Mar 2012 #31
SteveABG Mar 2012 #35
uppityperson Mar 2012 #37
SteveABG Mar 2012 #39
uppityperson Mar 2012 #40
SteveABG Mar 2012 #41
uppityperson Mar 2012 #44
robinlynne Mar 2012 #71
pnwmom Mar 2012 #66
yardwork Mar 2012 #96
robinlynne Mar 2012 #70
NutmegYankee Mar 2012 #56
geckosfeet Mar 2012 #57
Baitball Blogger Mar 2012 #27
yardwork Mar 2012 #29
frylock Mar 2012 #52
magical thyme Mar 2012 #14
TrollBuster9090 Mar 2012 #15
Baitball Blogger Mar 2012 #25
Cali_Democrat Mar 2012 #34
RKP5637 Mar 2012 #38
uppityperson Mar 2012 #42
yardwork Mar 2012 #32
grasswire Mar 2012 #43
magical thyme Mar 2012 #47
yardwork Mar 2012 #97
robinlynne Mar 2012 #72
aquart Mar 2012 #12
BootinUp Mar 2012 #13
pnwmom Mar 2012 #17
naaman fletcher Mar 2012 #82
MrBig Mar 2012 #20
magical thyme Mar 2012 #30
Oneka Mar 2012 #60
magical thyme Mar 2012 #64
Oneka Mar 2012 #65
magical thyme Mar 2012 #76
Baitball Blogger Mar 2012 #24
drm604 Mar 2012 #36
myrna minx Mar 2012 #48
sakabatou Mar 2012 #50
robinlynne Mar 2012 #73
sakabatou Mar 2012 #77
robinlynne Mar 2012 #89
Politicalboi Mar 2012 #53
Vattel Mar 2012 #54
Vattel Mar 2012 #59
Oneka Mar 2012 #63
yardwork Mar 2012 #98
Vattel Mar 2012 #102
robinlynne Mar 2012 #74
sixtiessman Mar 2012 #58
Oneka Mar 2012 #62
JDPriestly Mar 2012 #81
DonCoquixote Mar 2012 #61
robinlynne Mar 2012 #75
robinlynne Mar 2012 #67
sakabatou Mar 2012 #78
robinlynne Mar 2012 #90
sakabatou Mar 2012 #91
robinlynne Mar 2012 #92
AtopTheRacismNow Mar 2012 #83
robinlynne Mar 2012 #93
Cali_Democrat Mar 2012 #99
KurtNYC Mar 2012 #84
Myrina Mar 2012 #101

Response to kpete (Original post)

Thu Mar 29, 2012, 06:42 PM

1. the wittness doesn't speak very well. I guess he was nervous.

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Response to Auntie Bush (Reply #1)

Fri Mar 30, 2012, 01:47 AM

79. Could the witness have been a child?

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Response to Auntie Bush (Reply #1)

Fri Mar 30, 2012, 10:32 AM

86. Witness Did Not Want To Be Identified

Auntie Bush - according to CNN, witness did not want to be identified and used an electronic voice thingy to mask whether witness was male or female.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Thu Mar 29, 2012, 06:43 PM

2. cowardly bastard shot that boy in the back

 

"Trayvon Martin was topped and then shot in the back by George Zimmerman, according to emails sent to the press.
CNN spokeswoman told the press in three separate emails:"

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Response to magical thyme (Reply #2)

Thu Mar 29, 2012, 06:53 PM

7. I thought he was shot in the chest. ? Has that been made public? nt

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #7)

Thu Mar 29, 2012, 06:58 PM

11. the quote is near the beginning of the article (sorry, mistakenly put end earlier)

 

as far as I know, this is the first time it's been made public, beyond speculation that being found face down suggested he was shot in the back.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #7)

Thu Mar 29, 2012, 07:10 PM

23. The funeral co. spokesman said a chest wound

Would the bullets from the pistol Zimmerman carried make a through and through?

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Response to HereSince1628 (Reply #23)

Thu Mar 29, 2012, 07:14 PM

26. I don't know. But it was a powerful gun...a 9 mm maybe? nt

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #26)

Thu Mar 29, 2012, 08:00 PM

46. seems like it could have

 

Just did some quick research. A 9mm is more powerful than a 38. You need a 38 minimum to penetrate the bone if euthanizing a horse in an emergency. So a 9mm could definitely penetrate at least one human bone. If you miss bone on one side, by getting between spine and shoulder blade, then it seems possible.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #26)

Thu Mar 29, 2012, 08:16 PM

49. The coroner said he did not see an exit wound

and I think he said he was shot in the front but I'm not sure.

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Response to flamingdem (Reply #49)

Fri Mar 30, 2012, 01:14 PM

95. We have not seen the coroner's report, unless it was released today and I missed it.

We've seen the report of a funeral director who said that he couldn't tell which way the bullet went through the body.

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Response to HereSince1628 (Reply #23)

Thu Mar 29, 2012, 07:16 PM

28. and funeral spokesman said he didn't know if chest wound was entrance or exit

 

At point blank range, I believe so.

Is a 9mm about the same power as a 38?

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Response to HereSince1628 (Reply #23)

Thu Mar 29, 2012, 07:22 PM

33. funeral director said only one wound, and on the chest

no exit wound

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Response to grasswire (Reply #33)

Thu Mar 29, 2012, 07:48 PM

45. "He also could not determine the bulletís entry or exit point."

 

Richard Kurtz of Roy Mizell and Kurtz Funeral Home in Fort Lauderdale said there appeared to be a gunshot wound in Martinís upper chest area, but he received the body after the autopsy was completed so it was difficult to tell whether he had other injuries. He also could not determine the bulletís entry or exit point.

He did not say there was no exit wound.

http://www.hlntv.com/article/2012/03/28/funeral-director-saw-no-signs-fight-trayvons-hands

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Response to grasswire (Reply #33)

Thu Mar 29, 2012, 10:56 PM

68. he said he couldn't tell because of the autopsy.

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Response to grasswire (Reply #33)

Fri Mar 30, 2012, 01:53 AM

80. The entrance wound is smaller than the exit wound.

Exit Wounds
Exit wounds - as we have already mentioned - are usually larger than the entrance wound and this is because as the round moves through the body of the victim it slows down and explodes within the tissue and surrounding muscle. This slowing down of the projectile means that as it reaches the end of its trajectory it has to force harder to push through. This equates to the exit wound normally looking larger and considerably more destructive than its pre-cursor - the entrance wound.

Exit wounds will often bleed profusely as they are larger but entrance wounds can sometimes look only like small holes - unless the weapon is fired at close proximity to the victim.

http://www.exploreforensics.co.uk/entrance-and-exit-wounds.html

Seems to me it might be more likely to miss seeing the entrance wound.

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Response to HereSince1628 (Reply #23)

Thu Mar 29, 2012, 08:29 PM

51. 9mm full metal jackets at that range would likely go through if no bone was hit.

A hollow point would likely remain lodged in the body.

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Response to HereSince1628 (Reply #23)

Thu Mar 29, 2012, 09:15 PM

55. correct me...but didn't he also say that he couldn't determine if entry or exit wound?

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Response to magical thyme (Reply #2)

Fri Mar 30, 2012, 10:29 AM

85. If Trayvon Was Shot in Chest, How Did He Wind Up Face DOWN on Grass?

Magical Thyme - I've been wondering for weeks why Trayvon's family lawyers haven't brought this up. According to Zimmerman's account, Trayvon was on top of him, pinning him down, went for his gun, somehow Zimmerman got free and either while his head was being smashed for an entire minute on concrete or after, he shot Trayvon in the chest. Then how did Trayvon wind up face down on the grass? That's how the first two witnesses on the scene described it, as well as this new witness. If a person is shot in the chest, he would fall backward; he wouldn't twist around and wind up face down. I sent an email to Jonathan Capehart at Washington Post about this yesterday. I think Trayvon was shot in the back, and if that's true, then the county coroner has a lot of explaining to do, as do Sanford police and D.A.

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Response to Allymax (Reply #85)

Fri Mar 30, 2012, 10:44 AM

87. Perhaps they'll explain it like the "magic bullet" of JFK

We've all seen the Zapgruder film where JFK is shot from in front and he falls back, the direction of the bullet, right? But no, the magic bullet, and only bullet, fired comes from behind and hits JFK in the back of the head, causing a "muscle spasm" that jerks his head back! Opposite the direction of the bullet. That's the "official story."

Apply that to the Martin killing. Zimmerman shot him in chest and that caused a "muscle spasm" that jerk his body forward, and he fell to the ground face down.

Wait for it. It worked with the JFK killing...

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Response to KansDem (Reply #87)

Fri Mar 30, 2012, 10:51 AM

88. Trayvon's Family Needs Their Own Forensic Pathologist

Trayvon would have had to not only jerk his upper body around, he would have had to twist his legs as well. Doesn't pass the sniff test. Family needs to get Cyril Wecht or another renowned pathologist to do a thorough autopsy to find out what happened. And Zimmerman needs to be arrested.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Thu Mar 29, 2012, 06:45 PM

3. Confirms what we knew all along.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Thu Mar 29, 2012, 06:47 PM

4. Okay ...

 

Who was the man that "came up with [the] flashlight?"

Must follow the trail of leads to the end ... That's what investigators are supposed to do!

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #4)

Thu Mar 29, 2012, 06:55 PM

9. Probably one of the police officers responding to the 911 calls.

Which leads me to wonder if the police witnessed the shooting. They seem to have been on the scene at almost the same time. And they had flashlights.

One of the responding officers was involved in a previous coverup of the beating of a black homeless man.

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Response to yardwork (Reply #9)

Thu Mar 29, 2012, 10:57 PM

69. If you listen to the 911 calls, the flashlights were well after the shooting.

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Response to robinlynne (Reply #69)

Fri Mar 30, 2012, 01:13 PM

94. The 911 callers we've heard so far saw the flashlights later, but that doesn't mean

that officers with flashlights weren't already on the scene. The other 911 callers might not have seen them yet.

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Response to yardwork (Reply #94)

Fri Mar 30, 2012, 02:38 PM

100. Listen to the calls. Each caller reports the same thing. Time passes. minutes. then they see a flash

flashlight. then more flashlights. Every call has a siilar time frame between the gunshot and the flashlights.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #4)

Thu Mar 29, 2012, 07:09 PM

21. He was the "one-armed man" n/t.

 

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Thu Mar 29, 2012, 06:48 PM

5. This means nothing!

Hasn't anyone heard of the new Florida "Stand on the Boy on the Ground" Defense?

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Response to SteveABG (Reply #5)

Thu Mar 29, 2012, 06:52 PM

6. LOL. Lots of truth in that.

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Response to SteveABG (Reply #5)

Thu Mar 29, 2012, 07:06 PM

18. Not a new law. Been around since at least 1865 as far as I know.

And prior to that, similar situations were covered by laws relating to domestic livestock.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Thu Mar 29, 2012, 06:55 PM

8. Lying face down?

As in GZ was on top and shot him in the back? I'm confused... Wouldn't someone have noticed (not just the police) that the entry wound was in the back?

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Response to shawn703 (Reply #8)

Thu Mar 29, 2012, 06:57 PM

10. The police took the body away that night and didn't release it to his family until post autopsy.

The funeral home director who prepared the body for burial said that there was a large wound in the chest and he could not tell if it was an exit wound or entrance wound.

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Response to yardwork (Reply #10)

Thu Mar 29, 2012, 07:03 PM

16. Yeah

The funeral director said the shot was in the chest, and I would imagine Trayvon's parents saw the body, and would have noticed if he was shot in the back. I would think the funeral director would have mentioned a wound in the back.

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Response to SteveABG (Reply #16)

Thu Mar 29, 2012, 07:06 PM

19. At that close range, couldn't the bullet have gone all the way through?

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #19)

Thu Mar 29, 2012, 07:09 PM

22. possible

But I trust the words of the funeral director, and I would think he would have noticed an exit wound?

It's possible, but this theory doesn't seem likely to me, at this point...

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Response to SteveABG (Reply #22)

Thu Mar 29, 2012, 07:21 PM

31. I may not have been clear. The funeral director implied that there were wounds on the front and back

It seems certain that there is both an entrance wound and an exit wound on Trayvon's body. The funeral director could not tell which direction the bullet went, according to news reports.

In other words, we have no definitive answer as to whether Trayvon was shot in the chest or back. That is very significant. It is still entirely possible that he was shot in the back.

We need to see the autopsy results.

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Response to yardwork (Reply #31)

Thu Mar 29, 2012, 07:25 PM

35. OK

Then I may have missed something in the interview with the funeral director.

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Response to SteveABG (Reply #35)

Thu Mar 29, 2012, 07:27 PM

37. Here's a link and bit from the article.

http://nancygrace.blogs.cnn.com/2012/03/28/funeral-director-saw-no-signs-of-fight-on-trayvons-hands/?hpt=ng_bn1
The funeral director who prepared Trayvon Martinís body for burial told HLNís Nancy Grace Wednesday that he did not see any cuts or bruises on the teenís hands that would have been indicative of a struggle with George Zimmerman.

Richard Kurtz of Roy Mizell and Kurtz Funeral Home in Fort Lauderdale said there appeared to be a gunshot wound in Martinís upper chest area, but he received the body after the autopsy was completed so it was difficult to tell whether he had other injuries. He also could not determine the bulletís entry or exit point.

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Response to uppityperson (Reply #37)

Thu Mar 29, 2012, 07:32 PM

39. That doesn't seem to make sense to me...

Maybe that's poorly worded, but they only mention the one wound in the chest, but couldn't tell if it was entry or exit?

That would make me think there was a second wound, and he would have noted that?

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Response to SteveABG (Reply #39)

Thu Mar 29, 2012, 07:36 PM

40. Have you ever seen an autopsy? I have and it isn't pretty. After a shooting like this it would be

even more torn apart. They cut open everything, take out all the organs, cut open the skin, muscles, etc, through the bones in the torso, etc etc etc.

Then they sort of put the shell back together, shove the guts back in, whip stitch the bigger openings shut.

When the funeral director got the body, it had been taken apart and put sort of back together. The funeral director/mortician's job is making it look presentable for the family and friends.

There is a reason corpses have clothes on, and why often you only see the top part of the body.

When, if, the autopsy report comes out, then we will know for sure.

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Response to uppityperson (Reply #40)

Thu Mar 29, 2012, 07:37 PM

41. Gotcha

That makes a lot more sense, now. Thanks.

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Response to SteveABG (Reply #41)

Thu Mar 29, 2012, 07:44 PM

44. Some funeral directors/morticians can tell more than others, but their training and focus is

different from coroners. Coroners determine why, funeral directors/morticians get the body back in shape for the family.

Sorry if was too graphic. It rather took me aback when I observed, had to think about it for quite a while afterwards.

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Response to SteveABG (Reply #39)

Thu Mar 29, 2012, 10:59 PM

71. because the body was cut in autopsy, so he couldn't tell what kind of wound it was.

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Response to yardwork (Reply #31)

Thu Mar 29, 2012, 10:52 PM

66. Right, that's how I interpreted what he said, too. He would have known the direction

if there was only one wound.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #66)

Fri Mar 30, 2012, 01:16 PM

96. Exactly. It's logic.

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Response to SteveABG (Reply #22)

Thu Mar 29, 2012, 10:58 PM

70. the funeral director said the autopsy was right on top of the wound, so he couldn't tell.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #19)

Thu Mar 29, 2012, 09:17 PM

56. It's quite possible

A full metal jacketed 9mm could easily penetrate 10 inches of flesh.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #19)

Thu Mar 29, 2012, 09:38 PM

57. Depends on the type of bullet use.

A round nose jacketed bullet probably yes, a hollow point probably no.

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Response to yardwork (Reply #10)

Thu Mar 29, 2012, 07:16 PM

27. Exit wounds are larger than entry points.

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Response to Baitball Blogger (Reply #27)

Thu Mar 29, 2012, 07:19 PM

29. I know. The funeral director is not an expert on this, and the autopsy causes a lot of damage.

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Response to yardwork (Reply #10)

Thu Mar 29, 2012, 08:46 PM

52. exits wounds are typically larger than entry wounds..

as has been previously noted.

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Response to shawn703 (Reply #8)

Thu Mar 29, 2012, 07:02 PM

14. the autopsy should have determined which wound was entrance and which exit

 

The bullet went all the way through. It takes expert analysis to know which wound is which.

(I seem to remember reading that the larger hole tends to be the exit. Bullets enter fairly clean, but some explode inside and there may also be ricochet off bones, causing larger and more shredded, messier exits. But that is memory and speculation on my part.)

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Response to shawn703 (Reply #8)

Thu Mar 29, 2012, 07:02 PM

15. It should be fairly obvious from the entry/exit wounds whether Trayvon was

shot in the front or the back. Unless somebody has monkeyed with the corpse we should know the answer to that very soon.

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Response to TrollBuster9090 (Reply #15)

Thu Mar 29, 2012, 07:11 PM

25. They just need the clothes he wore to look for gun powder.

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Response to Baitball Blogger (Reply #25)

Thu Mar 29, 2012, 07:22 PM

34. Who examines the clothes for residue?

 

The coroner or the cops? At this point, I'm not sure if the cops have any credibility left.

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Response to Cali_Democrat (Reply #34)

Thu Mar 29, 2012, 07:30 PM

38. Looks to me like the cops would've stuffed him in a dumpster if they thought

they could've gotten away with it ... this is all so strange and nothing seems above board.

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Response to Cali_Democrat (Reply #34)

Thu Mar 29, 2012, 07:39 PM

42. The coroner does. I had an uncle who was a coroner in (big city). He was rather odd, had interesting

stuff in his basement workshop. They are trained to determine causes of death by examining the body, whereas police are not. Police and investigators look for other things to determine causes of death.

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Response to TrollBuster9090 (Reply #15)

Thu Mar 29, 2012, 07:22 PM

32. The autopsy would have that information. It has not been released.

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Response to TrollBuster9090 (Reply #15)

Thu Mar 29, 2012, 07:42 PM

43. the funeral director said chest wound, and no exit n/t

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Response to grasswire (Reply #43)

Thu Mar 29, 2012, 08:03 PM

47. "He also could not determine the bulletís entry or exit point."

 

The funeral director did NOT say there was no exit wound.

He said the chest wound looked like a gunshot wound, and he couldn't tell if it was and entrance or exit wound.

And that he received the body after the autopsy so couldn't identify other wounds.

"Richard Kurtz of Roy Mizell and Kurtz Funeral Home in Fort Lauderdale said there appeared to be a gunshot wound in Martinís upper chest area, but he received the body after the autopsy was completed so it was difficult to tell whether he had other injuries. He also could not determine the bulletís entry or exit point."

http://www.hlntv.com/article/2012/03/28/funeral-director-saw-no-signs-fight-trayvons-hands

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Response to grasswire (Reply #43)

Fri Mar 30, 2012, 01:18 PM

97. That's not correct, unless you have seen a different news report than I have seen.

If the funeral director couldn't tell which direction the bullet went through the body, then it implies that there were two wounds. After the autopsy, it was impossible to tell which was the exit wound and which was the entrance wound. Autopsies make a heck of a mess of a body.

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Response to TrollBuster9090 (Reply #15)

Thu Mar 29, 2012, 11:00 PM

72. We do know Trayvon was face down when the police arrived. (At least the police report says so.)

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Thu Mar 29, 2012, 06:59 PM

12. "On the ground facing down."

Zimmerman needs to be off the street.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Thu Mar 29, 2012, 07:01 PM

13. The sob shot him in the back? OMG. nt

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Thu Mar 29, 2012, 07:05 PM

17. The description was very confusing. I hope this person has put this into a clearer deposition

arranged by Martin's parents' lawyer.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #17)

Fri Mar 30, 2012, 05:20 AM

82. This "witness" basically didn't see anything, and this headlines is way over-hyped nt.

 

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Thu Mar 29, 2012, 07:07 PM

20. I thought the dead body confirmed Trayvon was the victim n/t

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Response to MrBig (Reply #20)

Thu Mar 29, 2012, 07:21 PM

30. the killer's father is claiming Trayvon attacked Zimmerman, making Zimmerman the victim

 

and that Zimmerman shot him in self defense under "stand your ground."

Strong proof that Zimmerman not only stalked Trayvon, but put him on the ground and shot him in the back sort of undoes that bogus claim.

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Response to magical thyme (Reply #30)

Thu Mar 29, 2012, 10:09 PM

60. If Trayvon were shot in the back

while laying face down, the police "should" have the bullet. At least honest police would.
The bullet should have ended up either still in trayvon's body or in the ground, and easy to find. If Zimmerman shot up at Trayvon while lying on his back , and the shot was through and through the bullet may never be found. A 9mm bullet, round nose, or hollow point could easily have gone all the way through a body.

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Response to Oneka (Reply #60)

Thu Mar 29, 2012, 10:26 PM

64. yeah, I did a little research

 

and concluded a 9mm could probably pass through his body.

Eye witness says Trayvon was face down and he shot Trayvon in the back, so the bullet should have gone into the ground. But the police finding it is another thing...did they even bother to look? If not, however, it will still be there. Or would be, but I expect (and hope) the federal investigation will have found it.

I think it's pretty clear there is no way Zimmerman was on his back shooting up at Trayvon. Zimmerman quite simply would have been soaked in blood from the chest wound, described by the funeral director as large. In the video from just half an hour later, there's not a speck of blood on his gray shirt.

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Response to magical thyme (Reply #64)

Thu Mar 29, 2012, 10:45 PM

65. a chest wound

wouldn't necessarily bleed within the first few seconds it would take for the guy to roll the body off of him. Its possible that if Trayvon were on top and Z shot upward at him, he may have staggered around for a while before falling face down, not saying that is what happened, just one possibility. We may never know the whole truth of it, sadly.
I didn't catch the part about this eye witness stating that Trayvon was on the bottom, he seemed to equivocate on that point when AC questioned him on it.
I did miss the first section of the interview however.

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Response to Oneka (Reply #65)

Thu Mar 29, 2012, 11:08 PM

76. I'm on dialup, so didn't see the video

 

but the articles didn't seem to equivocate. They referenced 3 emails from a witness that said Trayvon was face down and shot in the back. The summary I read said the boy was on the ground and the man was above him. He heard the gun shot but didn't see the flash, and at that point he wasn't sure who shot who. When he saw the man stand up he knew the boy was the one who'd been shot. The man then walked toward him and he saw his face, he appeared uninjured, he looked nervous and wiped his hand over his head.

The thought that Trayvon regained his feet, staggered around for a few seconds and then collapsed sounds pretty unlikely to me. I could believe that he could have been blown backwards by the force, but then he would have landed on his back, not face down with his arms under him.

Backscatter from a bullet happens immediately. I would think a large chest wound would bleed pretty quickly. Of course, a bullet entry might not make a large wound. But the Funeral Director said there was a large chest wound, but he couldn't tell if it was an entry or exit wound.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Thu Mar 29, 2012, 07:10 PM

24. It boils down to the gun powder residue.

If the gun powder shows up in the back of his clothes, then Trayvon was killed in cold blood, at close range, from behind.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Thu Mar 29, 2012, 07:26 PM

36. My gut feeling, for whatever that's worth (not much, I know),

has been that Zimmerman knocked him down, kneeled on top of him, and shot him in the back. That just seems to fit with everything we've heard.

Whatever happened, I think it's all going to be coming out soon. We're getting more and more information that seems to fly in the face of Zimmerman's story.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Thu Mar 29, 2012, 08:04 PM

48. K&R n/t

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Thu Mar 29, 2012, 08:24 PM

50. I'm wondering, where's the coroner?

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Response to sakabatou (Reply #50)

Thu Mar 29, 2012, 11:02 PM

73. good question.

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Response to robinlynne (Reply #73)

Fri Mar 30, 2012, 12:12 AM

77. We've heard from so many others, but not him. Why?

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Response to sakabatou (Reply #77)

Fri Mar 30, 2012, 11:45 AM

89. maybe he/she has ethics. or the opposite.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Thu Mar 29, 2012, 08:46 PM

53. And after the debacle with the police

 

How do we trust their examination at all. How do we know if they played with evidence to make it look better for Zimmerman. Zimmerman's father is the reason he is still free.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Thu Mar 29, 2012, 09:10 PM

54. This confirms that Martin was the victim? I don't see how.

 

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Response to Vattel (Reply #54)

Thu Mar 29, 2012, 09:49 PM

59. There was a fight, a gun shot or two, and Trayvon Martin was dead.

 

That's what the witness said. It doesn't confirm that Martin was the victim.

"The witness said the shots were fired as one man was on top of the other. But the witness recalled not having been able to see clearly which man was on top because it was dark."

The OP is inaccurate in suggesting that the witness said that Zimmerman got off of Martin, which would imply that Zimmerman had been on top of him.

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Response to Vattel (Reply #59)

Thu Mar 29, 2012, 10:22 PM

63. Any decent defense lawyer

will use what this witness says in the media to pick apart his testimony in court.

He should refrain from giving interviews,to anyone but federal officials, if he wants to help in the prosecution of Zimmerman.
From what i heard him say on AC360, his info wouldn't help in a court room situation , and may be a liability for the prosecution.


Edit, spelling.

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Response to Vattel (Reply #59)

Fri Mar 30, 2012, 01:20 PM

98. The witness saw somebody get up off the body. Since Martin is dead, the person who got up

has to be Zimmerman.

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Response to yardwork (Reply #98)

Fri Mar 30, 2012, 02:55 PM

102. The witness did not say that he saw somebody get up off the body.

 

He said nothing to suggest who was on top of whom before the shooting.

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Response to Vattel (Reply #54)

Thu Mar 29, 2012, 11:03 PM

74. Zimmerman's story is that Trayvon was on top of hi beating him. the witness saw Trayvon under him be

being beaten.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Thu Mar 29, 2012, 09:43 PM

58. What we need to know

The case against Zimmerman will go as it will. We can't influence it much; sure, we can protest if he is not indited and all but that process and a trial will take months if not years. What we need to know now is the degree to which a network of laws (established to protect property at the expense of innocent people's lives) -- like the "stand-your-ground laws -- is being set up (over 20-states already have this law because of ALEC) without any changes or affirmations regarding Police SOP required to enforce these laws so as to maintain the great Democracy that we think we live in. For example:
1. What is the official government body that monitors Police SOP in different types of cases? Do we have one or do States have their own? There once was national legislation for the creation and monitoring of standards within our Police and Corrections Departments -- what happened to it?
2. Is there a unified SOP for all police departments for different types of cases? For example, is a case falling under this "stand-your-ground" law treated the same as any other murder where the killer claims self-defense?
3. Why didn't the Sanford police confiscate the supposed weapon and submit it for ballistic testing? Isn't this SOP even if the shooter claims self-defense? Why did they not compound Zimmerman's clothes (to see whether or not any of Trayvon's blood was present)? Why did they not take samples from Zimmerman's hands and fingernails for more DNA testing? Why did they not (or did they) take a signed statement (confession) from Zimmerman with a lawyer present (can you believe that his father, a retired Va Supreme Court Justice, would not have told his son something like "don't say anything until we get a lawyer down there to be with you." I am sure the Police had to know who Zimmerman's father is, so I am sure they had to think about Miranderizing him; if they did not do so, they must have been told not to worry about that.
WHY IS THIS ALL SO IMPORTANT? For one thing, Zimmerman could always change his plea and claim he did not do it; that his father said it was safer to claim self-defense under the "stand-your-ground bill. Then, where would they be. If all this does not matter to them, what do the Police in the other 20 states (with this law) think? Have changes been made to the SOP's with all their PDs? THAT'S THE POINT, folks. It all been treated with nonchalance -- no biggie, our Police can take care of it. That is the attitude that allows Fascist governments to develop.
The Nazis began experimenting with poison gas for the purpose of mass murder in late 1939 with the killing of mental patients ("euthanasia". But, there had already been several incidents in Poland where Jews had been locked into 'school' buses while the exhaust had been redirected into the bus to kill the prisoners. They did it more and more as they found they could get away with it. The picture of Police professionalism that we get from most of the 50-odd criminal justice series we watch on TV is totally wrong for most local jurisdictions and we need to demand that that situation changes. In the late 70's and early 80's, we had LEAAA -- the Law Enforcement Assistance Administration -- with a huge grant program to professionalize the Criminal Justice System but that disappeared when Reagan came in and very little has been done since then. We need to change that soon or we are going to be real sorry.
Lets honor Trayvon by turning lobbying for the return of professionalism and accountability to standards by the thousands of police forces that exist in this country.

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Response to sixtiessman (Reply #58)

Thu Mar 29, 2012, 10:16 PM

62. The best current means of

the return of professionalism and accountability


lots of these, and folks with the will to use them


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Response to sixtiessman (Reply #58)

Fri Mar 30, 2012, 01:59 AM

81. Thanks.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Thu Mar 29, 2012, 10:16 PM

61. Knowing the way the local Racists have embraced this cause

This witness needs 24/7 protection, or else an accident will happen, like the sort of accident that used to happen around tall trees.

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Response to DonCoquixote (Reply #61)

Thu Mar 29, 2012, 11:06 PM

75. You can tell who the witness is, from listening to the 911 calls on

the sanford website.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Thu Mar 29, 2012, 10:54 PM

67. The police report also describes Trayvon dead on the ground face down wiht his hands under his body.

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Response to robinlynne (Reply #67)

Fri Mar 30, 2012, 12:33 AM

78. That would indicate he fell forward, wouldn't it?

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Response to sakabatou (Reply #78)

Fri Mar 30, 2012, 11:46 AM

90. If he was on top of Zimmerman, he would fall on top of Zimmerman. There would be blood on Zimmerman.

It could mean he was lying face down and was shot in the back.

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Response to robinlynne (Reply #90)

Fri Mar 30, 2012, 12:31 PM

91. "If he was on top of Zimmerman, he would fall on top of Zimmerman."

And there'd be a large transfer of blood. That doesn't seem the case with the pictures of Zimmerman's shirt.

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Response to sakabatou (Reply #91)

Fri Mar 30, 2012, 12:48 PM

92. definitely not. if you are on your back, and someone on top of you attacking you, and you shoot

the perosn, you are going to have to have blood on your shirt.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Fri Mar 30, 2012, 08:15 AM

83. Why the shouting

All Capital letters in title?

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Response to AtopTheRacismNow (Reply #83)

Fri Mar 30, 2012, 12:48 PM

93. maybe becuase it is a really big deal.

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Response to AtopTheRacismNow (Reply #83)

Fri Mar 30, 2012, 01:45 PM

99. Welcome to DU

 

Perhaps you're unaware that this is a VERY big deal.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Fri Mar 30, 2012, 08:21 AM

84. Hey Redding News: of course Trayvon was the VICTIM

What a ridiculous headline.

At this point all of the debate about Zimmerman's various stories is moot. What we don't know yet (publicly) is who called who and got Zimmerman released.

Also: If the Sanford PD or higher ups owed Zimmerman's father that big of a favor, WHAT DID ZIMMERMAN'S FATHER DO FOR THEM?

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Fri Mar 30, 2012, 02:44 PM

101. I'm confused ...

.. not following as closely as some but what does it do to (anything) for the witness to say they say (presumably Zimmerman) "got up" and "a struggle" ... does that support some of Zimm's 'defense'?

I - for some reason - always thought of it as Zimmerman just basically following Martin and then taking him out from a short distance like a sniper.

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