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Wed Jul 23, 2014, 12:14 PM

Exclusive: Ukraine rebel commander acknowledges fighters had BUK missile

Source: Reuters

A powerful Ukrainian rebel leader has confirmed that pro-Russian separatists had anti-aircraft missiles of the type Washington says were used to shoot down Malaysia Airlines flight MH17.

In an interview with Reuters, Alexander Khodakovsky, commander of the Vostok Battalion, acknowledged for the first time since the airliner was brought down in eastern Ukraine on Thursday that the rebels did possess the BUK missile system.

He also indicated that the BUK may have originated in Russia and could have been sent back to remove proof of its presence.

Before the Malaysian plane was shot down, rebels had boasted of obtaining the BUK missiles, which can shoot down airliners at cruising height. But since the disaster the separatists' main group, the self-proclaimed People’s Republic of Donetsk, has repeatedly denied ever having possessed such weapons.

Read more: http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/23/us-ukraine-crisis-commander-exclusive-idUSKBN0FS1V920140723

105 replies, 9979 views

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Reply Exclusive: Ukraine rebel commander acknowledges fighters had BUK missile (Original post)
Bosonic Jul 2014 OP
dipsydoodle Jul 2014 #1
Bosonic Jul 2014 #2
dipsydoodle Jul 2014 #4
Tarheel_Dem Jul 2014 #29
dipsydoodle Jul 2014 #30
Tarheel_Dem Jul 2014 #33
Adrahil Jul 2014 #31
KoKo Jul 2014 #50
Adrahil Jul 2014 #51
KoKo Jul 2014 #52
dipsydoodle Jul 2014 #53
Adrahil Jul 2014 #55
lexx21 Jul 2014 #92
Adrahil Jul 2014 #54
KoKo Jul 2014 #58
Adrahil Jul 2014 #94
Codeine Jul 2014 #39
geek tragedy Jul 2014 #3
jakeXT Jul 2014 #6
geek tragedy Jul 2014 #14
jakeXT Jul 2014 #18
geek tragedy Jul 2014 #21
jakeXT Jul 2014 #24
cosmicone Jul 2014 #26
tabasco Jul 2014 #105
happyslug Jul 2014 #22
geek tragedy Jul 2014 #23
reorg Jul 2014 #67
geek tragedy Jul 2014 #70
reorg Jul 2014 #74
geek tragedy Jul 2014 #75
reorg Jul 2014 #77
geek tragedy Jul 2014 #80
jakeXT Jul 2014 #91
Erich Bloodaxe BSN Jul 2014 #5
Codeine Jul 2014 #34
geek tragedy Jul 2014 #36
davidpdx Jul 2014 #71
geek tragedy Jul 2014 #72
davidpdx Jul 2014 #73
Iliyah Jul 2014 #7
geek tragedy Jul 2014 #8
amandabeech Jul 2014 #9
geek tragedy Jul 2014 #10
amandabeech Jul 2014 #12
geek tragedy Jul 2014 #15
Iliyah Jul 2014 #19
amandabeech Jul 2014 #28
jakeXT Jul 2014 #16
cosmicone Jul 2014 #27
ozone_man Jul 2014 #32
geek tragedy Jul 2014 #35
Codeine Jul 2014 #37
geek tragedy Jul 2014 #38
Cha Jul 2014 #61
IronGate Jul 2014 #69
geek tragedy Jul 2014 #11
jakeXT Jul 2014 #13
reorg Jul 2014 #20
geek tragedy Jul 2014 #57
reorg Jul 2014 #59
geek tragedy Jul 2014 #64
reorg Jul 2014 #65
geek tragedy Jul 2014 #66
reorg Jul 2014 #68
Billy Budd Jul 2014 #76
geek tragedy Jul 2014 #78
Billy Budd Jul 2014 #79
geek tragedy Jul 2014 #81
Billy Budd Jul 2014 #82
geek tragedy Jul 2014 #83
Billy Budd Jul 2014 #84
geek tragedy Jul 2014 #85
Billy Budd Jul 2014 #87
geek tragedy Jul 2014 #88
Post removed Jul 2014 #89
geek tragedy Jul 2014 #90
Post removed Jul 2014 #86
cosmicone Jul 2014 #40
geek tragedy Jul 2014 #41
LineLineLineReply .
geek tragedy Jul 2014 #42
GliderGuider Jul 2014 #45
cosmicone Jul 2014 #48
Codeine Jul 2014 #44
cosmicone Jul 2014 #46
Codeine Jul 2014 #49
Adrahil Jul 2014 #56
blackspade Jul 2014 #17
William769 Jul 2014 #25
GliderGuider Jul 2014 #43
KoKo Jul 2014 #47
reorg Jul 2014 #60
KoKo Jul 2014 #62
reorg Jul 2014 #63
Adrahil Jul 2014 #95
reorg Jul 2014 #97
joshcryer Jul 2014 #93
reorg Jul 2014 #96
joshcryer Jul 2014 #98
reorg Jul 2014 #99
joshcryer Jul 2014 #100
reorg Jul 2014 #101
geek tragedy Jul 2014 #102
reorg Jul 2014 #103
geek tragedy Jul 2014 #104

Response to Bosonic (Original post)

Wed Jul 23, 2014, 12:21 PM

1. That was already known to be a fact.

They captured one move to the east By Kiev.

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Response to dipsydoodle (Reply #1)

Wed Jul 23, 2014, 12:23 PM

2. Did you read the third paragraph?

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Response to Bosonic (Reply #2)

Wed Jul 23, 2014, 12:26 PM

4. I'd missed that.

.

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Response to dipsydoodle (Reply #4)

Wed Jul 23, 2014, 02:03 PM

29. Yup. Your narrative is crumbling.

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Response to Tarheel_Dem (Reply #29)

Wed Jul 23, 2014, 02:18 PM

30. There was however something else that did become clear

which is for me to know and you to figure.

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Response to dipsydoodle (Reply #30)

Wed Jul 23, 2014, 02:42 PM

33. There's nothing left to "figure". We know exactly what happened, and Russia's the root cause.

The whole world can see it, why can't you?

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Response to dipsydoodle (Reply #4)

Wed Jul 23, 2014, 02:19 PM

31. dipsy, time to admit that innocent fighters against facism killed a planeload of civilians...

 

probably with Russia's help.

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Response to Adrahil (Reply #31)

Wed Jul 23, 2014, 03:21 PM

50. No...the article seems to say that Ukraine provoked the attack...not Russia...

See my snip of the article, downthread.

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Response to KoKo (Reply #50)

Wed Jul 23, 2014, 03:38 PM

51. That's nonsense.

 

An airliner at 30,000 + ft is not a tactical threat. It "provoked" nothing. It could not be mistaken for a tactical jet on an attack profile. And the rebels clearly thought they had shot down a cargo plane.... again, NOT a tactical threat.

That's just an impossibly preposterous position.

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Response to Adrahil (Reply #51)

Wed Jul 23, 2014, 03:47 PM

52. No...it said that Ukrainian aircraft attacked the area just before

the Malaysian jet flew over. The rebels were provoked to hit the Ukrainian fighter jets and not the airliner.

That's how I read it and I bolded the snip from the article. It could be the translation was not good by Reuters...but, that's how it read to me. If you bothered to read my post on the thread below.

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Response to KoKo (Reply #52)

Wed Jul 23, 2014, 03:58 PM

53. That may be the background reason

to Kiev confiscating all civilian and military flight information for that day.

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Response to dipsydoodle (Reply #53)

Wed Jul 23, 2014, 05:09 PM

55. So dippy... It's Ukraine's fault? That's your position?

 

I mean, that certainly lines up with Putin's position.

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Response to Adrahil (Reply #55)

Thu Jul 24, 2014, 08:25 AM

92. It's the fault of the person who pressed the damn button.....

and rolling that monstrosity back into Russia to cover up the fact that you had it to begin with is sort of like driving your parents car through the side of their house and then hiding the keys so they wouldn't think you did it. That is the technology that is available to shoot down the plane, so sweeping the dog shit under the rug doesn't absolve you of any responsibility.

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Response to KoKo (Reply #52)

Wed Jul 23, 2014, 05:08 PM

54. And yet, they targeted and killed an airliner....

 

...which cannot be mistaken for a fighter jet. C'mon....

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Response to Adrahil (Reply #54)

Wed Jul 23, 2014, 06:31 PM

58. Read Post 45 for context...you have yet to do that......

????

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Response to KoKo (Reply #58)

Thu Jul 24, 2014, 10:33 AM

94. Yes, I read the post. It's freakin' nonsense. I'll reply to it for ya.

 

Though I think you mean t#47, right?

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Response to dipsydoodle (Reply #4)

Wed Jul 23, 2014, 02:50 PM

39. Just that?

Seems like you've missed quite a lot, actually.

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Response to dipsydoodle (Reply #1)

Wed Jul 23, 2014, 12:25 PM

3. Sounds like you have new facts to learn. Read the story.

 

He's admitting these were owned by the rebels, not Ukraine.

And that they were not captured by the rebels, he said the ones captured by rebels were junk and not working.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #3)

Wed Jul 23, 2014, 12:37 PM

6. Sounds confused that man ?

"What resources our partners have, we cannot be entirely certain. Was there (a BUK)? Wasn’t there? If there was proof that there was, then there can be no question."

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Response to jakeXT (Reply #6)

Wed Jul 23, 2014, 12:51 PM

14. No, he has remarkable clarity.

 

He added: "I am an interested party. I am a ‘terrorist’, a ‘separatist’, a volunteer ... In any event, I am required to promote the side I represent, even if I might think otherwise, say otherwise or have an alternative view. This causes real discomfort to my soul."


If you read the entire thing, he has zero doubt that the rebels had Buks there. So much so, he says the Ukrainian government knew they were there too.

This seems clear also:

"I knew that a BUK came from Luhansk. At the time I was told that a BUK from Luhansk was coming under the flag of the LNR," he said, referring to the Luhansk People’s Republic, the main rebel group operating in Luhansk, one of two rebel provinces along with Donetsk, the province where the crash took place.

"That BUK I know about. I heard about it. I think they sent it back. Because I found out about it at exactly the moment that I found out that this tragedy had taken place. They probably sent it back in order to remove proof of its presence," Khodakovsky told Reuters on Tuesday.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #14)

Wed Jul 23, 2014, 01:05 PM

18. And they knew Kiev used passenger planes as human shields

However, a Youtube video made a month before Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 was shot down alleges that Ukranian fighter jets were hiding behind passenger planes, pulling away temporarily, dropping bombs on Ukrainian separatists, and then hiding again behind the plane (minor corrections of spelling and punctuation):



Terrible things are happening. For example, an incident that happened recently: passenger plane was flying by, and Ukrainian attack aircraft hid behind it. Then he lowered his altitude a bit and dropped bombs on residential sector of Semenovka town. Then he regained the altitude and hid behind the passenger plane again. Then he left.

They wanted to provoke the militia to shoot at the passenger plane. There would be a global catastrophe. Civilians would have died.

Then they would say that terrorists here did it. There are no terrorists here. There are regular people here that came out in defense of their own city.

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/07/report-ukranian-fighter-jets-hid-behind-passenger-plane-pulled-away-dropped-bombs-hid-behind-plane.html

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Response to jakeXT (Reply #18)

Wed Jul 23, 2014, 01:14 PM

21. You know not everything on the Internet is true, right?

 

That blog is looney-tunes.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #21)

Wed Jul 23, 2014, 01:18 PM

24. But the State Department told me so.. /nt

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Response to jakeXT (Reply #18)

Wed Jul 23, 2014, 01:48 PM

26. It has been proven that Kiev ATC sent the Malaysian plane

 

into harm's way .... they were probably using it to send their own fighter jets behind it.

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Response to jakeXT (Reply #18)

Thu Jul 24, 2014, 08:30 PM

105. That's the stupidest shit I've read today.

 

Congrats!

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #3)

Wed Jul 23, 2014, 01:14 PM

22. "Owned" is a broad term....

 

I like the story of the Southern POW being walked by Union Artillery during the Civil war, he made the comment that "You have almost as many as these "US" cannons as we do". The Article I was reading was on the success of Southern Cavalry capturing Union Artillery pieces, but I bring it up here that the someone is claiming they "Owned" or have "Possession" of something, can include things CAPTURED by that side.

On top of this the Ukrainian Regular Army was made up of three Corps, one of which corresponds to the Russian Speaking Eastern Areas of the Ukraine. This reflects the old Soviet Policy of raising troops locally. That policy was driven in many ways, by the different languages spoken in the old Soviet Union. All orders were given in Russian, but translations into the dominate language within the unit was done.

The 6th Ukrainian Army Corp, the Army Corp in the Eastern Ukraine, had an Anti Aircraft unit attached to it, thus it is possible the missile system used to shot down this plane, came from the 6th Ukrainian Army Corp and has not been part of any Russian AA formation. Such a scenario would provide the weapon and the trained crew, AND the lack of any long range radar and information on Civilian planes (Which would be handed by longer range S-300 units). The Malaysian Plane hit was at the max range for the missile that shot it down.

Thus these may be captured unit, units transferred with a dissolution of the 6th Ukrainian Army Corp, or units provided by Russia. That it is reported that any captured units were junk, does not imply any units transferred from the 6th Ukrainian Army were junk. It also does not mean any units given to them by Russia were NOT junk (In the days of the Soviet Union, the Soviet Union often sold junk versions of their own military equipment to other nations, thus the definition of Junk can be relative).

Scary thought: This was a Ukrainian piece and it was Junk, but could still take out a Civilian Airliner, when it could NOT take down anything else. Thus when they detected the Airliner, the missile crew saw this as their chance to hit SOMETHING and fired. Given the range of the Missile, and the speed of the plane, the Missile crew had only five minutes to fire or not fire. Five minutes to decide if the plane was Military or Civilian. During times of stress that is NOT a long time.

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Response to happyslug (Reply #22)

Wed Jul 23, 2014, 01:16 PM

23. he's saying the rebels were in possession of the missiles

 

that it was a well-known fact

he also pretty much admits that the rebels did shoot the plane down, and suggested that they sent the missiles back to russia to hide their guilt

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #23)

Wed Jul 23, 2014, 07:33 PM

67. You seem to misunderstand what Reuters reported

"he's saying the rebels were in possession of the missiles"

He is nowhere saying that.


"that it was a well-known fact "

Not true. Please cite the passage you are refering to.


"he also pretty much admits that the rebels did shoot the plane down, and suggested that they sent the missiles back to russia to hide their guilt "

BS.

This is from the Reuters article:

Khodakovsky said his unit had never possessed BUKs, but they may have been used by rebels from other units. ...

"What resources our partners have, we cannot be entirely certain. Was there (a BUK)? Wasn’t there? If there was proof that there was, then there can be no question."

Khodakovsky said it was widely known that rebels had obtained BUKs from Ukrainian forces in the past, including three captured at a checkpoint in April and another captured near the airport in Donetsk. He said none of the BUKs captured from Ukrainian forces were operational.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/23/us-ukraine-crisis-commander-exclusive-idUSKBN0FS1V920140723

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Response to reorg (Reply #67)

Wed Jul 23, 2014, 07:54 PM

70. Man, just like the Russian information ministry, your ability

 

to say that up is down and act like you believe it is AMAZING.

From the article:

"I knew that a BUK came from Luhansk. At the time I was told that a BUK from Luhansk was coming under the flag of the LNR," he said, referring to the Luhansk People’s Republic, the main rebel group operating in Luhansk, one of two rebel provinces along with Donetsk, the province where the crash took place.

"That BUK I know about. I heard about it. I think they sent it back. Because I found out about it at exactly the moment that I found out that this tragedy had taken place. They probably sent it back in order to remove proof of its presence," Khodakovsky told Reuters on Tuesday.


He was so sure it was there, he assumed the Ukrainians MUST have known about it too.

"They knew that this BUK existed; that the BUK was heading for Snezhnoye," he said, referring to a village 10 km (six miles) west of the crash site. "They knew that it would be deployed there, and provoked the use of this BUK by starting an air strike on a target they didn’t need, that their planes hadn’t touched for a week."


You see, if he's blaming the Ukrainians for provoking the use of the Buk by flying their fucking airplanes in the area knowing while knowing that the rebels had the Buks, as a matter of absolute logic he's conceding that (1) the rebels had them and (2) the rebels were the ones who fired the missiles.

I do predict this will be your side's next talking point to shift the blame.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #70)

Wed Jul 23, 2014, 09:41 PM

74. "I heard about it" - "I think" - "They probably" - "I was told"

Even in the Reuters article, if you read it carefully, he never states that he actually knows a damn thing directly. It sounds like he offers hearsay and engages in speculation about non-Ukrainian factions among the militants that may have used such launchers.


But it these quibbles over interpretations are immaterial:

Khodakovskiy says that he never stated to his interviewer anything of the kind that has been attributed to him. What’s more, Khodakovskiy indicates that there are video recordings of the interview, in possession of several TV channels, which will prove him right – they will show, according to Khodakovskiy, that he never said that the Novorossiya Militia had BUK complexes and that this statement cannot be attributed to him.

...

News Anchor: Alexander Sergeevich, this is very important – you see, in the same interview it says that some other militias received this “BUK” complex. Do you know anything about this, in principle, or not?

Alexander Khodakovskiy: No, I do not know. In response to a question like this from the reporter, I challenged him to provide evidence, because our area is tightly monitored by all means possible, including also satellite imagery. So, please – “BUK” is a fairly large unit, and it can be easily detected from any type of photography – so, please, show your evidence, and we will then have to respond in accordance with its weight.

News Anchor: Once more, I would like to confirm it with you, so you can say it during our live broadcast – does the Militia currently have “BUK” or not?

Alexander Khodakovskiy: I am telling you absolutely – after we analyzed the entire situation and took inventory of the equipment in our arsenal – I can tell you with full authority that the Militia has no “BUKs”. MANPADS – yes, those we do have. But their upper ceiling is no more than …

News Anchor: … You do not now and never had any?

Alexander Khodakovskiy: We do not now and never had any.

...

http://is.gd/andjE2

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Response to reorg (Reply #74)

Wed Jul 23, 2014, 09:46 PM

75. so, now that he's towing the Moscow line, he's no longer a double agent?

 

Guess he doesn't want Polonium tea for breakfast.

Anyhow, I doubt the viewers are stupid enough to believe his recantation. It takes a strong effort to be deliberately stupid to believe the rebels didn't shoot that plane down.

Most of the world refuses to be that stupid. They weren't buying Putin's lies before this atrocity.

http://www.pewglobal.org/2014/07/09/russias-global-image-negative-amid-crisis-in-ukraine/

Russia is much more of a pariah under Putin than the US under Bush ever was. Congratulations! Even the Venezuelans (who certainly don't love the US) and the "B" in BRIC view Russia negatively.



And, EVERYONE except the Chinese and Russians hate Putin. Even the Israelis and Palestinians agree!




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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #75)

Wed Jul 23, 2014, 10:12 PM

77. Looks like Western propaganda is quite effective outside of China and India

I can attest to the fact that in Germany, the anti-Russian hysteria has reached new heights in the media throughout this year. It will have little or no effect on the actual, mostly economic relations, though, and many serious and senior experts have raised their voices loud and clear against this propaganda onslaught: former Chancellor Schmidt, most competent journalists such as Peter Scholl-Latour, Gabriele Krone-Schmalz, just to name a few. This is in line with the fact that the call for "sanctions" against Russia went unheeded except for some make-belief cosmetic action.

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Response to reorg (Reply #77)

Wed Jul 23, 2014, 10:29 PM

80. No, it's that the rest of the planet doesn't get brainwashed by Russia's propaganda

 

Turns out, they don't like fascist regimes that invade their neighbors and try to destabilize an entire continent.

Venezuelans hate Putin, and they are not subject to 'western' propaganda.

They certainly don't like the nasty, bigoted thug who is your Czar.

Once Russians begin to realize that Ukraine is lost forever as an ally to Russia, and is in fact openly defiant of Russia, and that countries like Estonia have nothing to fear from the former great power, I wonder how long Putin's approval ratings will last.

I do hope you enjoy your role as China's petrol station.




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Response to reorg (Reply #77)

Thu Jul 24, 2014, 02:16 AM

91. They also have something prepared for Germany

Directs the President to establish a United States-German Global and European Security Working Group to focus on areas of mutual concern, including the situation in Ukraine, and increasing political, economic, and military cooperation between the two states.

https://beta.congress.gov/bill/113th-congress/senate-bill/2277

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Response to Bosonic (Original post)

Wed Jul 23, 2014, 12:33 PM

5. But but but

another_liberal told us just a few days ago that Ukraine had to have shot down the Malaysian Air plane, because the rebels didn't have such weaponry!

Is this rebel commander calling a DU'er a shill for pro-Putin propaganda?

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Reply #5)

Wed Jul 23, 2014, 02:47 PM

34. That poster has been conspicuously absent

as the rebel narrative crumbled further and further into dust. Pathetic toadies rarely possess the courage of their convictions.

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Response to Codeine (Reply #34)

Wed Jul 23, 2014, 02:48 PM

36. maybe that young man went west nt

 

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #36)

Wed Jul 23, 2014, 09:16 PM

71. Good one

It seems like when one or two of them disappear, more come out of the ground like weeds.

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Response to davidpdx (Reply #71)

Wed Jul 23, 2014, 09:19 PM

72. coincidentally, the low post ones appear

 

right when the high post ones go on vacation for linking to Holocaust denial sites

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #72)

Wed Jul 23, 2014, 09:30 PM

73. hmm...good observation

I never noticed that. Then again I'm not a very prolific poster.

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Response to Bosonic (Original post)

Wed Jul 23, 2014, 12:43 PM

7. Squirrel!

Hopefully the Dutch will find the answers and diplomatically bring the ones involved to justice.

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Response to Iliyah (Reply #7)

Wed Jul 23, 2014, 12:44 PM

8. they can call this guy as a witness, he seems to have something

 

resembling a conscience

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Response to Bosonic (Original post)

Wed Jul 23, 2014, 12:45 PM

9. Further down in the article, Reuters reports that Khodakovsky is one of the

 

few separatist commanders who is actually Ukrainian. K. says that the Russian separatist commanders have the BUKs and he questions the use of the BUKs in situations other than defending against an attack. He does not sound particularly friendly toward the Russian commanders, either. Might a crack be growing in the separatists between Ukrainian and Russian separatists?

K. says that the separatists captured some BUKs systems from Urkainian government installations early on, but that those Ukrainian BUKs did not work, which might not be surprising considering that Ukraine's armed forced were in complete disrepair when this started. That points more clearly to the Russian Federation as the source of the BUKs being used now.

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Response to amandabeech (Reply #9)

Wed Jul 23, 2014, 12:46 PM

10. this is a giant chasm between the factions.

 

he's essentially telling his comrades to go back to Russia. Sounds like he's ready to negotiate a peace deal.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #10)

Wed Jul 23, 2014, 12:49 PM

12. He sounds tired of the whole thing.

 

He may be ready to negotiate a peace deal, but he may also be ready to switch sides and chase the Russian nationals out of Ukraine. Wouldn't that be something? Shooting a civilian airliner may have been the last straw for him.

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Response to amandabeech (Reply #12)

Wed Jul 23, 2014, 12:53 PM

15. it has gone on too long. he knows it nt

 

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #15)

Wed Jul 23, 2014, 01:09 PM

19. Maybe, just maybe, this man has a heart.

Downing a plane with innocent people who had nothing to do with the situation on the ground can play havoc on a person's soul, if they have one. Hopefully he will name names, but alas, I fear he may not make it too much longer unless he goes into protective custody.

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Response to Iliyah (Reply #19)

Wed Jul 23, 2014, 01:54 PM

28. How many other "separatists" might feel the same way after the shoot-down.

 

The Ukrainian government might be wise to put out feelers with promises of western-style treatment for those separatist fighters who are ready to put down arms.

On another note, Barbara Starr just reported on CNN that Russian troops have moved close to the border again. Two Ukrainian military planes were shot down today and there is some question as to whether one of the planes was shot down by a missile fired from the Russian side of the border.

The last thing that I wish the US to do is get into a land battle with Russia in Ukraine, but Putin is simply behaving in an unacceptable manner. He has taken by force land on the other side of a border that his country agreed to respect by international agreement. This type of behavior in the past often has led to some very unpleasant circumstances of which we and the Europeans are well aware.

Ukraine, Syria, Israel/Palestine, Iraq, Libya, the North and South China Seas. I feel like I'm living in some sort of Tom Clancy "Sum of All Fears" novel that has no nice, neat end. President Obama seems to have come into office with the domestic policy goals of fixing the economy and proving health care for many who did not have it, and he's at least made good starts in both areas. But the rest of the world just seems to be spinning out of control, and I'm not sure that the administration, save for Sec. Kerry, is really prepared for this.

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Response to amandabeech (Reply #12)

Wed Jul 23, 2014, 12:59 PM

16. We have no other option,



"The split of the country is final. There is nothing uniting us with them (the Kiev leadership) now," Alexander Khodakovsky, a defector from the Ukrainian state security service who now commands Battalion Vostok, told Reuters.

...

"We have no other option," Khodakovsky said. "They should understand the consequences of fighting within a city if Poroshenko wants to go down in history as 'The Bloody One'."

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/06/01/us-ukraine-crisis-vostok-idUSKBN0EC1LL20140601

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Response to amandabeech (Reply #9)

Wed Jul 23, 2014, 01:49 PM

27. He is probably a plant by the Ukrainian puppet government n/t

 

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Response to cosmicone (Reply #27)

Wed Jul 23, 2014, 02:35 PM

32. Didn't he switch sides

to the coup government? If so, maybe he is not such a reliable source.

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Response to ozone_man (Reply #32)

Wed Jul 23, 2014, 02:47 PM

35. Nope. still shooting at government troops. He's just telling the truth, unlike

 

Moscow's apologists and shills in Ukraine and elsewhere.



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Response to cosmicone (Reply #27)

Wed Jul 23, 2014, 02:49 PM

37. Oh good lord.

You're trolling now, dude.

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Response to Codeine (Reply #37)

Wed Jul 23, 2014, 02:50 PM

38. it's all they got. nt

 

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Response to Codeine (Reply #37)

Wed Jul 23, 2014, 06:54 PM

61. Which begs the question.. wth do they have

invested in Russia?

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Response to cosmicone (Reply #27)

Wed Jul 23, 2014, 07:47 PM

69. Oh good god,

 

now you're sounding desperate.

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Response to Bosonic (Original post)

Wed Jul 23, 2014, 12:47 PM

11. "I am required to promote the side I represent, even if I might think otherwise

 

say otherwise or have an alternative view. This causes real discomfort to my soul."

Sounds like he had enough of lying on behalf of Moscow.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #11)

Wed Jul 23, 2014, 12:49 PM

13. He also likes to make everything clear in his intercepted phone calls

“I have a request for you. It is not my request,” a man identified as Battalion Vostok Commander Alexander Khodakovsky says in one recording.

“Our friends from high above are very much interested in the fate of the black boxes. I mean people from Moscow.”

http://nypost.com/2014/07/21/new-recording-reveals-rebel-plot-to-steal-flight-mh17s-black-boxes/

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Response to jakeXT (Reply #13)

Wed Jul 23, 2014, 01:10 PM

20. sounds like he is the source for uncovering a lot of evil deeds

by the Russkis.

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Response to reorg (Reply #20)

Wed Jul 23, 2014, 05:53 PM

57. That's it! Even though he's been waging war against Ukraine's government

 

and armed forces for months, the fact that he refuted the obvious lies from Moscow must mean he's a double agent and actually working for the CIA/Bilderbergs/Svoboda/Pussy Riot.

Beyond self-parody at this point.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #57)

Wed Jul 23, 2014, 06:46 PM

59. Khodakovskiy says that he never stated to his interviewer anything of the kind

Khodakovskiy says that he never stated to his interviewer anything of the kind that has been attributed to him. What’s more, Khodakovskiy indicates that there are video recordings of the interview, in possession of several TV channels, which will prove him right – they will show, according to Khodakovskiy, that he never said that the Novorossiya Militia had BUK complexes and that this statement cannot be attributed to him.

Did the interviewer somehow misunderstand what Khodakovskiy was saying? According to Khodakovskiy, his interviewer spoke Russian quite well. Is it possible that Khodakovskiy is lying? The interview with Khodakovskiy was taped. Copies of portions of the videotape were submitted to other news channels, including to REN-TV and ORT. Khodakovskiy speaks confidently that he never said anything of the kind that was reported by Reuters.

http://is.gd/andjE2



Transcript of LifeNews Interview with Alexander Khodokovskiy

Reporter: One of the leaders of the Militia, Alexander Khodakovskiy, has refuted the information published by the Reuters agency.

Today, Western journalists disseminated an interview given by the commander of Battalion “Vostok”, in which he allegedly confirmed that the Militia had in its possession a “BUK” complex at the time of the crash of the Malaysian Boeing.

However, Alexander Khodokovskiy states that he said nothing of the sort to the agency. And, right now, on the line with our studio is the commander of the Militia Battalion “Vostok”, Alexander Khodakovskiy.

(...)

Reporter: Once more, I would like to confirm it with you, so you can say it during our live broadcast – does the Militia currently have “BUK” or not?

Alexander Khodakovskiy: I am telling you absolutely – after we analyzed the entire situation and took inventory of the equipment in our arsenal – I can tell you with full authority that the Militia has no “BUKs”. MANPADS – yes, those we do have. But their upper ceiling is no more than …

Reporter: … You do not now and never had any?

Alexander Khodakovskiy: We do not now and never had any.

...

Links: full transcript, LifeNews Interview in Russian (with video)


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Response to reorg (Reply #59)

Wed Jul 23, 2014, 07:14 PM

64. Life News.

 

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #64)

Wed Jul 23, 2014, 07:24 PM

65. Do you speak Russian?

Can you confirm or deny that what he says in the video is what the transcript says?

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Response to reorg (Reply #65)

Wed Jul 23, 2014, 07:28 PM

66. Say, why did Team Putin not release

 

their intel on where the launch occurred? Unless I missed it, they never gave the coordinates of where the missile came from or its path?

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #66)

Wed Jul 23, 2014, 10:08 PM

76. men wearing Ukraine Military Uniform fired the missile

 

Our Government knows all about it ...........

U.S. intelligence analysts were examining satellite imagery that showed the crew manning the suspected missile battery wearing what looked like Ukrainian army uniforms,
but my source said the analysts were still struggling with whether that essentially destroyed the U.S. government's case blaming the rebels.

The Los Angeles Times article
http://touch.latimes.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-80870402/
on Tuesday's briefing seemed to address the same information this way: "U.S. intelligence agencies have so far been unable to determine the nationalities or identities of the crew that launched the missile. U.S. officials said it was possible the SA-11 [anti-aircraft missile] was launched by a defector from the Ukrainian military who was trained to use similar missile systems."

That statement about a possible "defector" might explain why some analysts thought they saw soldiers in Ukrainian army uniforms tending to the missile battery in eastern Ukraine. But there is another obvious explanation that the U.S. intelligence community seems unwilling to accept: that the missile may have been launched by someone working for the Ukrainian military.

http://www.opednews.com/articles/The-Mystery-of-a-Ukrainian-by-Robert-Parry-Intelligence_Killing_Media_Russia-140722-948.html

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Response to Billy Budd (Reply #76)

Wed Jul 23, 2014, 10:15 PM

78. Robert Parry, a known Kremlin sycophant, is the only source on the planet for the uniform claim.

 

Not the United States or its intelligence agencies.

Just a pathetic has-been writer who sucks up to Vladimir Putin for a living.

Sorry, your little fairy tale is almost certainly nothing more than wishful thinking, a fairy tale the Putin Defense League tells itself in order to sleep at night.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #78)

Wed Jul 23, 2014, 10:20 PM

79. Robert Parry is a noted journalist

 

Robert Parry broke many of the Iran-Contra stories in the 1980s for the Associated Press and Newsweek....you on the other hand are admittedly a "geek tragedy" yes sir...go to the link of the LA Times ...see what they report

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Response to Billy Budd (Reply #79)

Wed Jul 23, 2014, 10:31 PM

81. "in the 1980's" --yes, part of being a "has-been" is having once displayed merit and achievement.

 

that no longer describes that little poodle of Putin

P.S. the LA Times article doesn't say anything about uniforms. Only Putin's poodle does.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #81)

Wed Jul 23, 2014, 10:33 PM

82. However

 

The sobriquet "geek tragedy" applies now more than ever to a sycophant of the Military Industrial Complex Empire ....

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Response to Billy Budd (Reply #82)

Wed Jul 23, 2014, 10:33 PM

83. have you ever been west, young man? nt

 

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #83)

Wed Jul 23, 2014, 10:40 PM

84. yes I saw this on the LA Times

 

U.S. intelligence agencies have so far been unable to determine the nationalities or identities of the crew that launched the missile. U.S. officials said it was possible the SA-11 was launched by a defector from the Ukrainian military who was trained to use similar missile systems.

http://touch.latimes.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-80870402/

Hahhahahahah now its a "Defector" how about its a Ukraine army officer not a defector ...cui bono who benefits from the shoot down ...not Russia or the Rebels ..ok geek tragedy lol

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Response to Billy Budd (Reply #84)

Wed Jul 23, 2014, 10:46 PM

85. "it was possible the SA-11 was launched by a defector from the Ukrainian military who was trained

 

to use similar systems"

The point is not uniforms as that idiot Parry is claiming. It's about who trained the operator of the missiles. The three options being:

1) Russian military
2) separatists trained by Russian military
3) defector from Ukrainian army


And the reason no one other than that idiot Parry is talking about them being operated by the Ukrainian army is the fact that they were in territory controlled by the rebels.

And, has been explained numerous times, "cui bono" does not apply to mistakes and blunders. If you do not understand why "cui bono" is inapplicable to mistakes and blunders and accidents, well good luck with the rest of your life.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #85)

Wed Jul 23, 2014, 10:53 PM

87. what about number 4

 

Number 4 is ...it was not a defector it was a Ukrainian Officer loyal to Kiev who fired the missile because it was part of Black Op ...Kiev/Washington Black Op...why its a Geek tragedy ...

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Response to Billy Budd (Reply #87)

Wed Jul 23, 2014, 10:55 PM

88. No intelligent, sane human being believes this was a US-sponsored black op. nt

 

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #88)


Response to Post removed (Reply #89)

Wed Jul 23, 2014, 11:08 PM

90. Because people who promote that crazy talk cite white supremacists like Paul Craig Roberts to

 

back it up.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #66)


Response to geek tragedy (Reply #11)

Wed Jul 23, 2014, 02:59 PM

40. The guy is obviously a plant and not a real rebel representative

 

Even if he is mad at the Russians, why would he otherwise sell out his whole movement by talking to the media and recording phone calls? It doesn't help his cause -- very very suspicious.

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Response to cosmicone (Reply #40)


Response to cosmicone (Reply #40)

Wed Jul 23, 2014, 03:02 PM

42. .

 

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #42)

Wed Jul 23, 2014, 03:05 PM

45. Excellent comparison.

 

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #42)

Wed Jul 23, 2014, 03:18 PM

48. More like

 

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Response to cosmicone (Reply #40)

Wed Jul 23, 2014, 03:04 PM

44. The straws, you must grasp at them!!

Grasp, dammit!! GRASP!!

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Response to Codeine (Reply #44)

Wed Jul 23, 2014, 03:14 PM

46. It is not a straw but a huge sturdy column with handles to hold n/t

 

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Response to cosmicone (Reply #46)

Wed Jul 23, 2014, 03:19 PM

49. Mmm-hmm. nt

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Response to cosmicone (Reply #40)

Wed Jul 23, 2014, 05:12 PM

56. He was reported as a rebel commander by the NYT 6 weeks ago.

 

As to your assertions, perhaps he's simply fed up with the dumb-assery of some of the other organizations.

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Response to Bosonic (Original post)

Wed Jul 23, 2014, 12:59 PM

17. Oppsie!

These 'rebels' are way dirtier than the 'fascists' that took over Kiev.

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Response to Bosonic (Original post)

Wed Jul 23, 2014, 01:42 PM

25. Kick & recommended.

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Response to Bosonic (Original post)

Wed Jul 23, 2014, 03:04 PM

43. Sounds like he's close to unburdening his soul.

 

I wonder how long he'll be looking at the grass from above?

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Response to Bosonic (Original post)

Wed Jul 23, 2014, 03:17 PM

47. My read is that he's saying Ukraine provoked the missle attack

by attack with their aircraft just before the Malaysian jet flew over.

"The question is this: Ukraine received timely evidence that the volunteers have this technology, through the fault of Russia.It not only did nothing to protect security, but provoked the use of this type of weapon against a plane that was flying with peaceful civilians," he said.

"They knew that this BUK existed; that the BUK was heading for Snezhnoye," he said, referring to a village 10 km (six miles) west of the crash site. "They knew that it would be deployed there, and provoked the use of this BUK by starting an air strike on a target they didn’t need, that their planes hadn’t touched for a week."

"And that day, they were intensively flying, and exactly at the moment of the shooting, at the moment the civilian plane flew overhead, they launched air strikes. Even if there was a BUK, and even if the BUK was used, Ukraine did everything to ensure that a civilian aircraft was shot down."

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Response to KoKo (Reply #47)

Wed Jul 23, 2014, 06:51 PM

60. He now says he never made the alleged statement

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=854158

Sounds as if these soundbites were pulled from an discussion with a lot of hypotheticals (what if, even if we would have never etc).

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Response to reorg (Reply #60)

Wed Jul 23, 2014, 06:55 PM

62. Well...it came from the Reuter's Report of the OP.....

Who knows? I'm still trying to figure it all out. But, my quotes from the Reuters were what the OP posted with the link...which I did take the time to read.

So...he has recanted. Interesting.

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Response to KoKo (Reply #62)

Wed Jul 23, 2014, 07:08 PM

63. Yes, I know

The main thrust even in the interview as related by Reuters appears to be that the Ukrainian military is to blame for provoking such an accident. In another interview in Russian TV he has not "recanted", he explicitly states that he never made the remarks attributed to him such as that the militia had Buk missile launchers. If I remember correctly, Reuters quoted him as saying "I heard about it" and that he had heard such launchers were on their way from Luhansk.

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Response to KoKo (Reply #47)

Thu Jul 24, 2014, 10:36 AM

95. This is SUCH BS

 

A large, civilian airliner at 33,000 ft, flying in a straight line looks NOTHING like a tactical aircraft on an attack profile.

And the social media posts indicate that the rebels thought they had shot down an AN26, NOT a tactical attack aircraft.

In other words, this "context" is complete bullshit.

Even if you're sympathetic to rebels, there is simply no reasonable doubt that they are responsible for the deaths of nearly 300 innocent people. And Russians were, at the least, complicit.

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Response to Adrahil (Reply #95)

Thu Jul 24, 2014, 05:31 PM

97. perhaps it is, perhaps not, using airliners as human shields

seemed to be a common experience, or perhaps it's just a theory?

Says this woman in a video uploaded on June 18:



1:09 For example an incident that happened recently. Passenger plane was flying by.
1:16 And Ukrainian attack aircraft hid behind it.
1:22 Then he lowered his altitude a bit and dropped bombs on residential sector of Semenovka town.
1:27 Than he regained the altitude and hid behind the passenger plane again. Then he left.
1:31 They wanted to provoke the militia to shoot at the passenger plane. There would be a global catastrophe. Civilians would have died.
1:49 Then they would say that terrorists here did it. There are no terrorists here. There are regular people here,
1:55 that came out in defence of their own city.
2:00 They can't bear this anymore. How long is this going to go on.
2:05 There are children here, elderly people, WW2 veterans that have to live through it again.
2:12 Don't you have any humanity left in you?

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Response to Bosonic (Original post)

Thu Jul 24, 2014, 08:37 AM

93. Reuters releases the audio:

http://www.rferl.org/media/video/ukraine-rebel-commander-buk-missile/25468569.html?nocache=1

In case anyone was still believing Khodakovsky that Reuters made it up.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #93)

Thu Jul 24, 2014, 04:43 PM

96. But you link to "Radio Free Europe"?

In case you were wondering why I ask, we have three different versions now. Compare:

Original Reuters quote (in writing):

"I knew that a BUK came from Luhansk. At the time I was told that a BUK from Luhansk was coming under the flag of the LNR," he said, referring to the Luhansk People’s Republic, the main rebel group operating in Luhansk, one of two rebel provinces along with Donetsk, the province where the crash took place.

"That BUK I know about. I heard about it. ..."

http://is.gd/vGlRYb


Subtitles in video with audio provided by the (former?) CIA-financed Radio Free Europe:

"I knew that a Buk was coming from Luhansk. At the moment, I was told that a Buk was coming from Luhansk under the flag of the Luhansk People's Republic toward Snizhne.

I do know about that Buk, I heard about it. ..."

http://is.gd/kDrAVk


Voice-over translation in video with audio provided by Reuters:

"I knew that a Buk came from Luhansk. At the time I was told that a Buk was coming from Luhansk under the flag of the LNR towards Snizhne.

I do NOT know about this Buk, I've heard about it. ..."

http://is.gd/auB5P3

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Response to reorg (Reply #96)

Thu Jul 24, 2014, 06:17 PM

98. "I knew that a Buk came from Luhansk"

In all three translations.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #98)

Thu Jul 24, 2014, 06:31 PM

99. "I do NOT know about this Buk ...

... I've heard about it" says Reuters NOW.

I found out about it at exactly the moment that I found out that this tragedy had taken place.
http://is.gd/vGlRYb

I found out about it exactly when I learned that this tragedy had happened.
http://is.gd/kDrAVk

I found out about it when I found out that this tragedy happened.
http://is.gd/auB5P3

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Response to reorg (Reply #99)

Thu Jul 24, 2014, 06:33 PM

100. So, confirmation.

He just didn't see it with his own lying eyes.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #100)

Thu Jul 24, 2014, 06:57 PM

101. I know you are not really that slow

First, the audio/video doesn't start at the beginning of the interview. He is right in the middle of a meandering discourse, trying to point out that the Ukrainian army was using the passengers of civilian airliners as human shields while attacking militants or even positions that didn't have any strategic value in order to provoke a catastrophe. Regardless of whether this theory is well-founded - it wasn't just his own and must have been based on experiences they had, see: http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014853729#post97

Second, he clearly says he didn't know anything about Buks being in the possession of militants, but that he "heard about" it, AFTER the accident had happened. Who knows from whom and under what circumstances.

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Response to reorg (Reply #101)

Thu Jul 24, 2014, 07:37 PM

102. If the rebels didn't have Buks, Ukraine

 

could not have possibly used passenger jets as human shields.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #102)

Thu Jul 24, 2014, 07:56 PM

103. just read what Khodakovsky said, please?

It comes out a little discombobulated, but his basic argument is this:

You all say you know for a fact that the militants had Buks and an prove it. (In the press conference by the Ukraine Security Service it was stated explicitly that they had "known" this several days before the accident.) Why then did your bombers stay in the vicinity of passenger planes - although you "knew" that militants would try and shoot the bombers and might hit the airliners instead?

This question stands even if the militants did in fact have not a single Buk launcher. Because the Ukraine claims they were convinced they had and therefore had to assume that they were being used.

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Response to reorg (Reply #103)

Thu Jul 24, 2014, 08:01 PM

104. Seems like an attempt to transition

 

from one set of blame-shifting talking points to another.

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