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jakeXT

(10,575 posts)
Mon Jul 21, 2014, 06:41 AM Jul 2014

Ukraine launches assault on Donetsk rebels

Source: Aljazeera

Ukraine has launched a heavy assault on the rebel-held city of Donetsk, as international investigators arrived in the region to examine the remains of 298 people killed in the downing of a Malaysia Airlines airliner.

A separatist leader on Monday said Ukrainian government forces were trying to break into Donetsk and fighting was under way near the city's railway station. It is the heaviest outbreak of violence in the region since the MH17 airliner was shot down on Thursday.

Sergei Kavtaradze, of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic, said at least four tanks and armoured vehicles were attacking his men. Two rebel tanks were reported heading to Donetsk railway station.

A Ukrainian military spokesman said the operation was in progress but he would not comment on troop movements.

Read more: http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2014/07/ukraine-launches-assault-donetsk-rebels-20147218382937765.html

28 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Ukraine launches assault on Donetsk rebels (Original Post) jakeXT Jul 2014 OP
Wipe them all out The Green Manalishi Jul 2014 #1
The poor innocents caught in the fire of war RobertEarl Jul 2014 #26
Russia challenges accusations Ukraine rebels shot down airliner bemildred Jul 2014 #2
UPDATE 1-Russia challenges accusations that Ukraine rebels shot down airliner bemildred Jul 2014 #5
Reminds me of earlier reports jakeXT Jul 2014 #6
There was no Spanish air traffic controller. n/t Igel Jul 2014 #7
Don't put too much faith in twitter/facebook .. WSJ was hacked with Air Force One down yesterday jakeXT Jul 2014 #8
Eh, I don't believe much of anything at the moment. bemildred Jul 2014 #10
The Russians want US sat. images jakeXT Jul 2014 #12
Yeah, I'm reading all that stuff. bemildred Jul 2014 #14
I'm not quite sure what you mean by citizen of an empire, is that like "Civus romanus sum" jakeXT Jul 2014 #16
Everybody speaks your language and cares what you think. bemildred Jul 2014 #17
The British Empire laid the groundwork, I remember Brzezinski talking about it jakeXT Jul 2014 #18
And the French before that, and the Romans, and Arabs, and Chinese. bemildred Jul 2014 #19
The US isn't going to show capability. joshcryer Jul 2014 #21
Looks like 50cm is max allowed resolution jakeXT Jul 2014 #23
Wow, 6 years ago. joshcryer Jul 2014 #25
For the old KH-8, which was used from 1966-1984, I found resolutions of 4 inch or 6 -18 inch jakeXT Jul 2014 #27
Yeah! The coronograph, on that presser: joshcryer Jul 2014 #28
Fighting breaks out near railway station in Ukraine’s Donetsk bemildred Jul 2014 #3
Yup. Igel Jul 2014 #11
AmTrak is not about punctuality. I found that out myself. bemildred Jul 2014 #13
Malaysia Airlines flight 17 crash: Access to crash site improving, European monitors say bemildred Jul 2014 #4
There's a partial collapse of the rebel's front lines. Igel Jul 2014 #9
Leadership pullout from Luhansk? Iterate Jul 2014 #15
'Twas the claim. But Bolotov says no. Igel Jul 2014 #20
You'll like this bit of connect-the-dots. Igel Jul 2014 #22
And when Tito came they changed sides jakeXT Jul 2014 #24
 

RobertEarl

(13,685 posts)
26. The poor innocents caught in the fire of war
Mon Jul 21, 2014, 10:02 PM
Jul 2014

We simply must find a better way of settling our differences, or we are doomed. We have these nuke weapons that would turn the world to ashes.

Are we crazy, or what?

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
2. Russia challenges accusations Ukraine rebels shot down airliner
Mon Jul 21, 2014, 10:58 AM
Jul 2014

(Reuters) - Russia's Defence Ministry on Monday challenged accusations that pro-Russian separatists were responsible for shooting down a Malaysian airliner over east Ukraine and said Ukrainian warplanes had flown close to the aircraft.

The Defence Ministry also rejected accusations that Russia had supplied the separatist rebels with SA-11 Buk anti-aircraft missile systems, known as "Gadfly" in NATO, "or any other weapons." (Reporting by Vladimir Soldatkin; Writing by Alissa de Carbonnel, Editing by Timothy Heritage)

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/21/ukraine-crisis-russia-ministry-idUSL6N0PW2YF20140721?rpc=401&feedType=RSS&feedName=bondsNews&rpc=401

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
5. UPDATE 1-Russia challenges accusations that Ukraine rebels shot down airliner
Mon Jul 21, 2014, 11:13 AM
Jul 2014

(Reuters) - Russia's Defence Ministry on Monday challenged U.S. and Ukrainian accusations that pro-Russian separatists were respnsible for shooting down a Malaysian airliner and said Ukrainian warplanes had flown close to the aircraft.

The ministry also rejected accusations by the United States and Kiev that Russia had supplied the separatist rebels in east Ukraine with SA-11 Buk anti-aircraft missile systems, known as "Gadfly" in NATO, "or any other weapons."

"Russian air space control systems detected a Ukrainian Air Force plane, presumably an SU-25 (fighter jet), scrambling in the direction of the Malaysian Boeing," Lieutenant-General Igor Makushev of Russia's Air Forces told a news briefing.

"The distance of the SU-25 plane from the Boeing was from 3 to 5 kilometres (2 to 3 miles)," he said.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/21/ukraine-crisis-russia-ministry-idUSL6N0PW3LH20140721?rpc=401&feedType=RSS&feedName=bondsNews&rpc=401

jakeXT

(10,575 posts)
6. Reminds me of earlier reports
Mon Jul 21, 2014, 11:27 AM
Jul 2014

2 Ukrainian fighters seen following Malaysian jet minutes before crash

MOSCOW, July 18, /ITAR-TASS/. Two Ukrainian fighters were following the passenger Boeing-777 of Malaysian Airlines several minutes before the crash, Russia’s television Channel One said on Friday, citing a tweet made a Spanish air traffic controller of Kiev’s airport Borispol.

According to the Spanish air traffic controller, two Ukrainian fighters had been seen near the Malaysian jet three minutes before it disappeared from radars.

This information is confirmed by eyewitnesses in the Donetsk region who saw Ukrainian warplanes near the passenger jet. They say they heard sounds of powerful blasts and saw a Ukraine warplane shortly before the crash.

http://en.itar-tass.com/russia/741248

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
10. Eh, I don't believe much of anything at the moment.
Mon Jul 21, 2014, 12:21 PM
Jul 2014

Other than that it was indeed shot down, but I still expect much better information in due course.

Right now I am paying attention to who is upset and who is not.

jakeXT

(10,575 posts)
12. The Russians want US sat. images
Mon Jul 21, 2014, 12:31 PM
Jul 2014
At the moment of the MH17 crash an American satellite was flying over the area of eastern Ukraine, according to Russia’s Defense Ministry. It urged the US to publish the space photos and data captured by it.

http://rt.com/news/174412-malaysia-plane-russia-ukraine/

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
14. Yeah, I'm reading all that stuff.
Mon Jul 21, 2014, 12:36 PM
Jul 2014

I can't read Cyrillic, but I do the best I can in English, which is not bad from what I can tell. There advantages ot being a citizen of an empire.

jakeXT

(10,575 posts)
16. I'm not quite sure what you mean by citizen of an empire, is that like "Civus romanus sum"
Mon Jul 21, 2014, 03:20 PM
Jul 2014

American president John F. Kennedy used the phrase in 1963: "Two thousand years ago, the proudest boast was 'civis romanus sum'. Today, in the world of freedom, the proudest boast is 'Ich bin ein Berliner'."[6]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civis_romanus_sum

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
17. Everybody speaks your language and cares what you think.
Mon Jul 21, 2014, 03:24 PM
Jul 2014

Thus there are English language media all over the planet. So you have much less need to rely on the vagaries of translation to find out what everybody has to say.

jakeXT

(10,575 posts)
18. The British Empire laid the groundwork, I remember Brzezinski talking about it
Mon Jul 21, 2014, 04:30 PM
Jul 2014

Sometimes one just forgets how important an easy to learn language is. That would be difficult for China or Russia to achieve, I recently talked to an older Polish worker, who lamented that he didn't pay enough attention to Russian in school. It's easier when you have cultural incentives like music and movies.

“Cultural domination has been an underappreciated facet of American global power. Whatever one may think of its aesthetic values, America’s mass culture exercises a magnetic appeal, especially on the world’s youth. Its attraction may be derived from the hedonistic quality of the lifestyle it projects, but its global appeal is undeniable. American television programs and films account for about three-fourths of the global market. American popular music is equally dominant, while American fads, eating habits, and even clothing are increasingly imitated worldwide. The language of the Internet is English, and an overwhelming proportion of the global computer chatter also originates from America, influencing the content of global conversation. Lastly, America has become a Mecca for those seeking advanced education, with approximately half a million foreign students flocking to the United States, with many of the ablest never returning home. Graduates from American universities are to be found in almost every Cabinet on every continent.”

http://www.takeoverworld.info/Grand_Chessboard.pdf

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
19. And the French before that, and the Romans, and Arabs, and Chinese.
Mon Jul 21, 2014, 05:22 PM
Jul 2014

But it makes us lazy too, I think.

joshcryer

(62,265 posts)
21. The US isn't going to show capability.
Mon Jul 21, 2014, 08:20 PM
Jul 2014

So if there are any photos released they will be blurry and inconclusive.

jakeXT

(10,575 posts)
23. Looks like 50cm is max allowed resolution
Mon Jul 21, 2014, 08:55 PM
Jul 2014

Since around the late 70s, the military has used high-resolution spy satellites capable of reading newspaper headlines in Red Square. But only in recent years the technology became available to the public and businesses while concurrently making dramatic strides in coverage and resolution. For example, when Google Earth launched in 2004, its imagery was low-res and spotty. But by March 2006, a third of the world population could get a bird’s-eye view of their own homes in high resolution.

There’s one catch for Google: While the GeoEye-1 will provide imagery to the NGA at the maximum resolution of 43 cm, Google will only receive images at a 50-cm resolution because of a government restriction, Brender explained. However, Google’s partnership with GeoEye is exclusive, meaning the search-engine giant will be the only online mapping site using the satellite’s photos.

http://www.wired.com/2008/10/geoeye-1-super/

joshcryer

(62,265 posts)
25. Wow, 6 years ago.
Mon Jul 21, 2014, 09:48 PM
Jul 2014

Wonder what it must be now.

I know Neil Tyson points out we have dozens of "Hubble's" up in space, only they're ... pointing down.

jakeXT

(10,575 posts)
27. For the old KH-8, which was used from 1966-1984, I found resolutions of 4 inch or 6 -18 inch
Tue Jul 22, 2014, 02:27 AM
Jul 2014

The NRO even donated some Hubble like satellites to NASA.
I can't remember, but wasn't one mission idea for those donated satellites discussed in the NASA TV clip?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/122830774

This produced images with greater detail with a resolution down to between 18 and 6 inches

http://www.globalsecurity.org/space/systems/kh-8.htm


The KH-8 (BYEMAN codename Gambit-3)[1] was a long-lived series of reconnaissance satellites of the "Key Hole" (KH) series used by the United States from July 1966 to April 1984,[2] and also known as Low Altitude Surveillance Platform.[3] The satellite ejected canisters of photographic film that were retrieved as they descended through the atmosphere by parachute. Ground resolution of the mature satellite system was better than 4 inches (0.10 m).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KH-8_Gambit_3



NASA Mulls Missions for Donated Spy Satellite Telescopes

NASA is sorting through a variety of possible uses for a pair of powerful spy satellite telescopes that fell into the agency's lap last year.

In November, NASA asked scientists to suggest missions for the telescopes, which were donated by the U.S. National Reconnaissance Office (NRO) and are comparable in size and appearance to the famous Hubble Space Telescope.

http://www.space.com/20955-nasa-spy-satellite-telescopes-missions.html

KH9

joshcryer

(62,265 posts)
28. Yeah! The coronograph, on that presser:
Tue Jul 22, 2014, 03:09 AM
Jul 2014


Go to about the 50 min mark. It's ironic, a MIC satellite, potentially discovering life on other exoplanets... MIC being mostly about destroying life (I'm on the record saying that the only good thing the MIC has done is the Navy helping disaster areas).

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
3. Fighting breaks out near railway station in Ukraine’s Donetsk
Mon Jul 21, 2014, 10:59 AM
Jul 2014

PanARMENIAN.Net - Fighting broke out near the railway station at the heart of Ukraine’s Donetsk on Monday, July 21, in what pro-Russia armed groups said was an attempt by government forces to seize back the east city, according to Reuters.

The government in Kiev denied sending the regular army into the center of Donetsk, but said small “self-organized pro-Ukrainian groups were fighting the pro-Russian rebels in the city.”

Four people were killed in clashes near the railway station and close to the airport outside Donetsk, local health officials said in the industrial city which was home to about 1 million people before many fled the fighting in the region.

http://www.panarmenian.net/eng/news/180933/

Igel

(35,268 posts)
11. Yup.
Mon Jul 21, 2014, 12:25 PM
Jul 2014

The Ukr forces got to the airport yesterday or the day before and secured the perimeter yesterday, reports were. The airport is just outside the city limits on the NW. Literally, you cross the street from the airport and you're in Donets'k. The "Kiev district" (Igel says, wryly).

The railway station is about a mile from the airport, almost in a direct line from the airport to downtown. Hard to avoid.

Rebels are claiming that it's no coincidence that the RR is under assault just as the bodies from MH17 were about to leave. Wink-wink, nudge-nudge.

Ukrliznitsya (I think I got that right--the national Ukrainian railroad service) in the midst of all the reports of fighting said that trains were running normally.

Gotta love bureaucrats. It's like Amtrak. Once I asked an Amtrak attendant why the train with my wife and kid on it was late. She said the train was running on time--her computer screen said so. . "Look, the train was to be here at 11:06. It's 11:20. Look out the window. The train's not here." She looked at the computer screen and at the empty space that should be filled by train and said, "Oh--somebody's wrong, I'll figure out who." D'uh.

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
13. AmTrak is not about punctuality. I found that out myself.
Mon Jul 21, 2014, 12:34 PM
Jul 2014

I'm kind of a war nerd, I find the conflicting narratives in these things interesting, I watch to see which collapse and why. Of course some live on forever as consipiracy theories.

I think the rebels are screwed, but it could still get messy.

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
4. Malaysia Airlines flight 17 crash: Access to crash site improving, European monitors say
Mon Jul 21, 2014, 11:01 AM
Jul 2014

Pro-Russian rebels at the crash site of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 have granted European monitors and experts nearly "unfettered access" to wreckage Monday, according to a spokesman for Security and Co-operation in Europe.

The rebels even provided some perimeter security to keep journalists at bay, creating a "dome of tranquility" for the OSCE monitors, three Dutch forensic experts and a handful of Ukranian aviation experts now at the scene, Michael Bociurkiw said Monday in a briefing hosted by the Ukrainian Crisis Media Center.

His assessment follows a trend of improving access for monitors at the site, which is in the middle of territory held by rebels fighting Ukraine's central government.

However, it remains difficult to get to the site, and Bociurkiw had no information about the status of a team of international crash experts staging in Kharkiv to inspect the debris.

http://www.abc15.com/news/national/malaysia-airlines-flight-17-crash-access-to-crash-site-improving-european-monitors-say

Igel

(35,268 posts)
9. There's a partial collapse of the rebel's front lines.
Mon Jul 21, 2014, 12:15 PM
Jul 2014

Rubizhne in the north, Dzherzhinsk in the north-central area, Yubileinyi and Heorhiivka (near Luhansk), Pisky near Donetsk and a bunch of other smaller areas have gone from rebel-held to Ukraine-held in the last 36 hours. Debal'tseve is held by Ukr forces and it's a crossroads between major N-S and E-W highways.

Troops are fighting in Horlivka, Severdonetsk, probably the NW corner of Donetsk and the NW and SE parts of Luhansk. They're to the city limits of Lysychansk in the north.

It's pretty clear that Donets'k and Luhansk and Severodonetsk are pretty much cut off from serious supply routes and surrounded. The major roads from Luhansk to the border are severed, and the roads from the border to Donetsk are controlled by Ukr forces. That may change by evening.

Ukr forces claim to hold part of SE Luhansk. The rebels say the city's entirely under their control. Some reports are that a commander in Luhansk called "Leshii" ("wood devil"?) is assuming some powers from Bolotov but this is disputed by Bolotov. Lots of rumors about which commanders have left or stayed.

Strelkov-Girkin went from saying "no strategic locations have been taken" at 3:00 am and that this battalion and that batallion have been utterly destroyed to reluctantly admitting that a number of places are taken, sometimes by the very battalion that he claimed was destroyed just 18 hours before; in some places the villages and towns may still be slightly contested as they're "cleansed" (which means "mopping up operation" but also has the ominous meaning "purged&quot . Ukr seems to say a place is taken if they've taken a big chunk of the place and the downtown/central area, Strelkov seems to say that his guys are holding onto a city or town if they still retain control over a building.

Reports are that groups of Russian citizen, many Chechens, have been taken captive. Including some "little green men." A constant stream of citizen reports from Luhansk, esp., about people being kidnapped by rebels in camo continues. Every day there are a few more--now a reporter, now a businessman, now somebody who posted something wrong or was seen on a mobile phone near an area hit 5 minutes later by Ukr mortars.

Ukr government sources are saying more armored vehicles and fighters crossed the border at Izvaryne last night.

The Ukr government has chortled (that's the right word here) that they've broken the rebels up into three distinct areas for disposal. Looking at a map, that's not quite true. There's still a strip from Torez to the border that's a problem. I count four--Luhansk, Donetsk, Severodonetsk, and that strip running mostly West to East to the border. That's going to become their new rump LPR/DPR if the flow of men and arms across the border doesn't stop.

And, humorously, the area "liberated" from the rebels some people have taken to calling "Girkinshchyna," sort of "Girkinland" after Strelkov's real surname. Luhansk has the nickname "Luganda" (Luganskaya narodnaya republika, LNR).

Iterate

(3,020 posts)
15. Leadership pullout from Luhansk?
Mon Jul 21, 2014, 02:07 PM
Jul 2014

I started to post this last night but there was no second source:
http://www.unian.net/politics/941747-rukovodstvo-lnr-pokinulo-lugansk-gorod-kontroliruyut-polevyie-komandiryi-prava-sprava.html

Luhansk is nearly cut off, and the latest Russian shelling of civilians looks like revenge or incitement. That would leave only district commanders/warlords.

Just now:
Ukrainian Updates ?@Ukroblogger
#Luhansk Obl,#Ukraine - Dep def ministr of #Russia-backed #SouthOssetia captured by #Ukrainians
pic.twitter.com/p4OC5vAxd7
https://t.co/Bx2YnAPs0a

Now after this skirmish today in Donetsk (which the Ukr gov't claims isn't their forces), there's this:

Noah Sneider @NoahSneider · 2 Min.
Massive convoy of rebels and equipment on the road near shakhtyorsk heading away from #Donetsk. Cars, buses, tanks, APCs, maybe ~50 total.

So 'maybe' this is the beginning of the beginning of a collapse. No Russians, no war.

Igel

(35,268 posts)
20. 'Twas the claim. But Bolotov says no.
Mon Jul 21, 2014, 08:19 PM
Jul 2014

Although one of the commanders is being a bit recalcitrant.

Igel

(35,268 posts)
22. You'll like this bit of connect-the-dots.
Mon Jul 21, 2014, 08:46 PM
Jul 2014
http://rusvesna.su/news/1405978781
This article says that Bratislav Zhivkovic welcomed a large contingent of Serbian chetniks to fight. He was involved in the Crimea, but also had an influx of Serbs to help the rebels in June '14 (not so long ago). He's proud to be fighting with Russians.

Meh. Chetniks.

Mr. Zhivkovic heads something called the "Chetnik movement" (cetnicka pokreta--gad, my Serbian is rusty, haven't used it much in 15 years). http://cetnicki-pokret.com/

Notice the nifty skull and bones logo. Them's his roots. It basically praises the glories of the chetniks over years. The Chetnik Movement is a specific group of them. No, there's no English translation. I'm not going to produce one, it's dinner time. He's for Greater Serbia and likes some people that are rather unsavory.

So scoot on over to Wiki, here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chetniks#Serbia

Mostly nationalist, during WWII they wound up going with the Nazis (the alternative was the Communists). Big into Slavic solidarity.

Here's the ironic part: The Chetnik movement sided with the fascists against the Communists that the USSR supported. But the Donbas "rebels" insist on calling the Ukrainian government fascists because a small percentage of the Ukrainians support Bandera, who sided with the fascists against the USSR.

Bandera was the intellectual and political peer of the Chetnik Movement in WWII.

The Chetniks were all for accepting Muslims in WWII for political goals, but still engaged in a massacre of Muslims in Srebrenica in 1942. But they are also for a Greater Serbia these days, and a day after the 12th anniversary of the Srebrenica massacre in the 1990s marched in Srebrenica to commemorate the 1942 massacre. Real good guys, there.

Strange bedfellows. But Borodai in Donets'k is fine when archnationalists whose ideological forebears fought with Hitler are on his side--because that's what he is.

jakeXT

(10,575 posts)
24. And when Tito came they changed sides
Mon Jul 21, 2014, 09:12 PM
Jul 2014

Increase of number of Partisans in Serbia, similarly to other republics, came partly in response to Tito's offer of amnesty to all collaborators on 17 August 1944. At that point tens of thousands of Chetniks switched sides to the Partisans.[citation needed] The amnesty would be offered again after German withdrawal from Belgrade on 21 November 1944 and 15 January 1945.[32]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yugoslav_Partisans

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