Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search
 

another_liberal

(8,821 posts)
Tue Jul 1, 2014, 01:12 PM Jul 2014

Ukraine launches offensive in east, vows to rid country of 'parasites'.

Source: Al Jazeera America

Ukrainian forces struck at separatist positions in the country’s restive east Tuesday, just hours after President Petro Poroshenko ended an uneasy cease-fire in the region and vowed to rid the area of “parasites.” The new offensive against pro-Moscow rebels saw pro-Kiev forces attack rebel bases and checkpoints “from the air and land,” the defense ministry said. Casualty figures were not immediately available. It came as Russian President Vladimir Putin again sought to blame Western governments for the ongoing crisis, accusing the West of trying to destabilize the whole region. He also reiterated a vow to protect ethnic Russians in Ukraine.

The resumption of full-scale fighting, which followed a cease-fire punctuated by sporadic violence, came as Poroshenko announced in a statement that Ukrainian forces "will attack and will free our country." The fragile laying down of arms expired Monday night. The idea had been to give rebels a chance to disarm in order to start a broader peace process including an amnesty and new elections. But rebels did not disarm, and the cease-fire was continually violated. Additionally, separatists did not comply with Poroshenko's latest push to get them to turn over key border crossings with Russia and permit international monitoring of the cease-fire.

"The unique chance to put the peace plan into practice was not realized," Poroshenko said in a speech to the nation. "This happened because of the criminal actions of the fighters." In a statement on Facebook he added that Ukraine needed to unite to “free our land from dirt and parasites.” The Tuesday offensive saw gunfire break out in the center of Donetsk, the capital of one of the two regions that pro-Russian insurgents have declared independent in eastern Ukraine.

Russia warned the authorities in Kiev that they would be held responsible for the ongoing military operation against separatists after refusing to extend the unilateral cease-fire. "One will have to answer for the crimes against peaceful civilians," the Russian foreign ministry said in a statement. "We demand that Ukrainian authorities stop shooting at their own country's peaceful cities and villages and return to the real and not pretend cease-fire to save people's lives."



Read more: http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/7/1/ukraine-russia-poroshenko.html



President Putin vows to protect Ukrainians who are ethnically Russian. President Poroshenko states he thinks those same people are "parasites," and he intends to use military force to ethnically cleanse them from their homes in Ukraine.

I wonder how this is going to settle out?
94 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Ukraine launches offensive in east, vows to rid country of 'parasites'. (Original Post) another_liberal Jul 2014 OP
"Dirt and parasites." That's some pretty ugly, dehumanizing rhetoric. It doesn't bode well. Comrade Grumpy Jul 2014 #1
No, it does not . . . another_liberal Jul 2014 #13
Anarchy in Kyiv "Self Defense" forces fight amongst each other - Video newthinking Jul 2014 #60
Anarchy in Kyiv - Maidan group assaults "Fatherland" MP newthinking Jul 2014 #61
And so it begins . . . another_liberal Jul 2014 #70
Yes, it is ugly, but I think that he is referring to the separatist fighters who are amandabeech Jul 2014 #22
I am not certain calling separatist fighters parasites and dirt... Gravitycollapse Jul 2014 #36
Doesn't sound like something you'd expect from the "good guys," does it? Distant Quasar Jul 2014 #37
It's not the most flowery of prose.... Tommy_Carcetti Jul 2014 #39
It is more than just unflowery prose. It's actually quite aggressive... Gravitycollapse Jul 2014 #40
It's wartime rhetoric, no more and no less. Tommy_Carcetti Jul 2014 #41
I think it could potentially devolve into deep ethnic conflict... Gravitycollapse Jul 2014 #42
I predict a descent into disorder, that's how it will settle out. bemildred Jul 2014 #2
I think there is a good chance . . . another_liberal Jul 2014 #10
I dunno, I think they all make shit up. bemildred Jul 2014 #14
Yeah, maybe, but I think the West will perpetuate it ballyhoo Jul 2014 #35
Putin cannot be trusted, I agree get rid of of the paramilitary scum. Oops I meant parasites. William769 Jul 2014 #3
You can't seriously mean that comment to be taken at face value? another_liberal Jul 2014 #7
Yes I can. William769 Jul 2014 #8
Given your avatar, your vitriol is bitterly ironic RufusTFirefly Jul 2014 #11
.......... Tommy_Carcetti Jul 2014 #27
A Putin is plainly on his way to restoring the pink triangle in Russia. William769 Jul 2014 #31
Whoosh! You obviously don't get it. RufusTFirefly Jul 2014 #34
I understand completely. William769 Jul 2014 #38
It takes all kinds . . . another_liberal Jul 2014 #12
With apologies to Mike Godwin, this kind of talk sounds ominously familiar RufusTFirefly Jul 2014 #4
Sadly, that is the situation . . . another_liberal Jul 2014 #6
Let's get a hold of ourselves here, people. Tommy_Carcetti Jul 2014 #19
You realize the animosity between eastern and western Ukraine is more than 350 years old, right? RufusTFirefly Jul 2014 #21
The animosity isn't anywhere as great as you claim. Tommy_Carcetti Jul 2014 #23
I know this.. sendero Jul 2014 #43
Is that really you, God? another_liberal Jul 2014 #66
mocking common sense.. sendero Jul 2014 #69
Who are you to order ethnic Russian Ukrainians to leave their homes? another_liberal Jul 2014 #71
They physically live in another country.. sendero Jul 2014 #72
The U. N. Charter enshrines the right of ethnic minorities to claim self-determination. another_liberal Jul 2014 #74
I think every selfish. sendero Jul 2014 #75
That sure worked out for Duckhunter935 Jul 2014 #76
The Chechnyans were called "terrorists" too . . . another_liberal Jul 2014 #77
Whom exactly Poroshenko may be referring to . . . another_liberal Jul 2014 #53
This message was self-deleted by its author dipsydoodle Jul 2014 #5
Thanks . . . another_liberal Jul 2014 #9
Uptodate on the subject from BBC here dipsydoodle Jul 2014 #17
While Poroshenko's rhetoric is bad, your equation of his "parasites" to mean "ethnic Russians" karynnj Jul 2014 #15
Exactly. nt Tommy_Carcetti Jul 2014 #24
I disagree . . . another_liberal Jul 2014 #25
Okay, point out to me where he was referring to all ethnic Russians living in Ukraine. nt Tommy_Carcetti Jul 2014 #29
Poroshenko's comments are open to interpretation . . . another_liberal Jul 2014 #32
UN says 54 thousand on June 27th: bemildred Jul 2014 #45
He is baiting Putin as instructed by his CIA masters cosmicone Jul 2014 #16
Good insight . . . another_liberal Jul 2014 #26
Putin didn't say he was going to protect ethnic Russians. Not this time. Igel Jul 2014 #18
Everything is relative . . . another_liberal Jul 2014 #28
The "simple" solution to all of this is.... lexx21 Jul 2014 #20
That is rather one-sided . . . another_liberal Jul 2014 #30
Crimea is no longer a part of Ukraine.. lexx21 Jul 2014 #33
crimea was given to Ukraine in the soviet days cosmicone Jul 2014 #44
Ukrainians are not ethnically Russian. Gravitycollapse Jul 2014 #47
Who said they were? MattSh Jul 2014 #62
Crimea is no longer a part of Ukraine. dipsydoodle Jul 2014 #48
Putin says Russia will hold Ukraine accountable after ceasefire ends dipsydoodle Jul 2014 #46
well, Moscow, you did annex Ukrainian territory (Crimea) and continue to invade their country lanlady Jul 2014 #49
Good for Merkel and Hollande! another_liberal Jul 2014 #54
Fighting engulfs key city as Ukraine truce ends bemildred Jul 2014 #50
Pro-Russian rebels capture police HQ in Ukraine city bemildred Jul 2014 #51
Poroshenko says he wants to secure peace through making war . . . another_liberal Jul 2014 #52
I don't know enough about him. bemildred Jul 2014 #55
Poroshenko seems to have been swayed by right wing demonstrations yesterday . . . another_liberal Jul 2014 #56
I would hazard a guess that he is surrounded by enraged idiots bemildred Jul 2014 #57
Putin Warns Again of Force As Ukraine Fighting Spreads bemildred Jul 2014 #58
If European Leaders want to see an end to fighting in Ukraine . . . another_liberal Jul 2014 #59
Remember, the IMF faned the flames jakeXT Jul 2014 #63
The background to that dipsydoodle Jul 2014 #65
Too right . . . another_liberal Jul 2014 #67
That is an important point. another_liberal Jul 2014 #80
Exactly what happens in such a situation? Tommy_Carcetti Jul 2014 #79
Negotiation is always better than outright war on civilians . . . another_liberal Jul 2014 #81
What you're suggesting isn't negotiation, however. Tommy_Carcetti Jul 2014 #82
The Ukrainian forces "reached out" alright . . . another_liberal Jul 2014 #89
DNR has no popular support. joshcryer Jul 2014 #64
No popular support? another_liberal Jul 2014 #68
Nope. joshcryer Jul 2014 #73
That's a totally subjective characterization . . . another_liberal Jul 2014 #85
Well, public opinion polls showed little support for secession. nt Tommy_Carcetti Jul 2014 #78
Whose opinion polls? another_liberal Jul 2014 #83
Pew, for starters. Tommy_Carcetti Jul 2014 #84
Western media? another_liberal Jul 2014 #86
No, actually I don't see what you mean. Tommy_Carcetti Jul 2014 #87
It's not like there is no evidence most Russian-Ukrainians want independence . . . another_liberal Jul 2014 #88
Those referendums were a farce and you know it. Tommy_Carcetti Jul 2014 #90
Maybe the poll you quoted is a farce as well . . . another_liberal Jul 2014 #91
You're asking if a poll conducted by Pew, with documented methodology, is a farce? Tommy_Carcetti Jul 2014 #93
I'm wondering if there is something else going on here... Xolodno Jul 2014 #92
Man, even Bush didn't call insurgents parasites. /nt Ash_F Jul 2014 #94

newthinking

(3,982 posts)
60. Anarchy in Kyiv "Self Defense" forces fight amongst each other - Video
Tue Jul 1, 2014, 11:27 PM
Jul 2014

Two UDAR self defense groups fight each other in Kyiv .



newthinking

(3,982 posts)
61. Anarchy in Kyiv - Maidan group assaults "Fatherland" MP
Tue Jul 1, 2014, 11:43 PM
Jul 2014

From earlier today.
Nothing in our media about these tensions so I am posting the info here.

http://ua.korrespondent.net/ukraine/politics/3386483-mitynhuvalnyky-pid-verkhovnoui-radoui-atakuvaly-nardepa-pashynskoho



They also report that 500 people protested earlier who apparently were angry they lost money due to a bank law change.

 

another_liberal

(8,821 posts)
70. And so it begins . . .
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 07:17 AM
Jul 2014

Just wait until the full effects of IMF austerity comes into effect. It will make the Maidan riots look like a walk in the park.

 

amandabeech

(9,893 posts)
22. Yes, it is ugly, but I think that he is referring to the separatist fighters who are
Tue Jul 1, 2014, 03:11 PM
Jul 2014

Ukrainian citizens and those fighters who have come from outside Ukraine to fight.

His words don't seem to pertain to those in eastern Ukraine who have not engaged in violence.

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
36. I am not certain calling separatist fighters parasites and dirt...
Tue Jul 1, 2014, 04:19 PM
Jul 2014

And threatening to destroy them is appropriate rhetoric.

Distant Quasar

(142 posts)
37. Doesn't sound like something you'd expect from the "good guys," does it?
Tue Jul 1, 2014, 04:33 PM
Jul 2014

Like most civil wars, this conflict was always more morally complex than the U.S. government and media portrayed it as being. This turn to eliminationist rhetoric in Kiev does not bode well.

Tommy_Carcetti

(43,085 posts)
39. It's not the most flowery of prose....
Tue Jul 1, 2014, 04:38 PM
Jul 2014

....but on the other hand, it's not Holocaust 2.0 as some people want to spin it into, either.

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
40. It is more than just unflowery prose. It's actually quite aggressive...
Tue Jul 1, 2014, 04:50 PM
Jul 2014

And by aggressive I mean extremely violent and potentially very dangerous and destabilizing.

I think it reflects a rather fascististic philosophy. Which isn't surprising considering we are dealing with avowed nationalists.

Tommy_Carcetti

(43,085 posts)
41. It's wartime rhetoric, no more and no less.
Tue Jul 1, 2014, 04:53 PM
Jul 2014

The "targets" of such rhetoric are in fact armed combatants.

But people attempting to spin it into some sort of threat of ethnic cleansing against the greater population are being completely disingenuous.

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
42. I think it could potentially devolve into deep ethnic conflict...
Tue Jul 1, 2014, 04:58 PM
Jul 2014

And, If left unchallenged, could collapse into something resembling ethnic cleansing. That isn't exactly something foreign to Eastern Europe and I'm not even talking about the Nazis.

Regardless of the circumstance, such rhetoric is dangerous and unjustifiable.

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
2. I predict a descent into disorder, that's how it will settle out.
Tue Jul 1, 2014, 01:23 PM
Jul 2014

Kiev has not the means to impose order, and nobody else will be up for the job. The usual results.

 

another_liberal

(8,821 posts)
10. I think there is a good chance . . .
Tue Jul 1, 2014, 02:11 PM
Jul 2014

A failure to retake the eastern regions quickly will likely signal the end for Poroshenko. If he does not achieve military victory, and soon, I think there is a good chance (50/50 at least) that the far right nationalist militias will stage a coup in Kiev and seize power directly. It's not like they haven't done it before, and recently!

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
14. I dunno, I think they all make shit up.
Tue Jul 1, 2014, 02:22 PM
Jul 2014

I just don't see anybody up to the job of running the place, so I expect things will continue to degrade, but faster.

 

ballyhoo

(2,060 posts)
35. Yeah, maybe, but I think the West will perpetuate it
Tue Jul 1, 2014, 04:15 PM
Jul 2014

to cover their new Iraq destruction (I of course mean war.).

 

another_liberal

(8,821 posts)
7. You can't seriously mean that comment to be taken at face value?
Tue Jul 1, 2014, 02:02 PM
Jul 2014

I think you really should check yourself on that one.

RufusTFirefly

(8,812 posts)
11. Given your avatar, your vitriol is bitterly ironic
Tue Jul 1, 2014, 02:12 PM
Jul 2014

Perhaps when the "parasites" are rounded up, they should be made to wear pink triangles?

RufusTFirefly

(8,812 posts)
34. Whoosh! You obviously don't get it.
Tue Jul 1, 2014, 03:59 PM
Jul 2014

Do you really want to emulate the enemy you oppose?

Is it OK for you to treat humans as parasites in response to Putin's execrable domestic policies?

Also, you do realize, I hope, that the people in eastern Ukraine you consider parasites are not the same as Vladimir Putin, any more than you and I were the same as George W. Bush.

RufusTFirefly

(8,812 posts)
4. With apologies to Mike Godwin, this kind of talk sounds ominously familiar
Tue Jul 1, 2014, 01:29 PM
Jul 2014
The Eternal Jew (1940) juxtaposes images of ghetto Jews with images of rats to draw an analogy between the migration of Jews from Eastern Europe and the migration of rats. As rats are the vermin of the animal kingdom, the narrator explains, Jews are the vermin of the human race and similarly spread disease and corruption.
 

another_liberal

(8,821 posts)
6. Sadly, that is the situation . . .
Tue Jul 1, 2014, 01:59 PM
Jul 2014

Such things are really being said, and approved of, in the Twenty-First Century.

Tommy_Carcetti

(43,085 posts)
19. Let's get a hold of ourselves here, people.
Tue Jul 1, 2014, 03:00 PM
Jul 2014

While it wouldn't be my personal choice of words (a bit too inflammatory for my taste), Poroshenko was referring to armed separatists as the "parasites". In other words, a foreign being that comes in to a host body and creates havoc and damage. And yes, a good deal of the pro-Russian separatists are not Ukrainians.

Poroshenko was not referring to all ethnic Russians living in Ukraine as "parasites", to which you imply.

As much as the Catherina Crowd here at DU wants to frame this as Holocaust 2.0, that just isn't happening.

But you know what they say about Godwin's Law and winners and losers....

RufusTFirefly

(8,812 posts)
21. You realize the animosity between eastern and western Ukraine is more than 350 years old, right?
Tue Jul 1, 2014, 03:05 PM
Jul 2014

This isn't a new issue. Not by a long shot. The region has had an ethnic division for centuries.

Tommy_Carcetti

(43,085 posts)
23. The animosity isn't anywhere as great as you claim.
Tue Jul 1, 2014, 03:15 PM
Jul 2014

Last edited Tue Jul 1, 2014, 05:56 PM - Edit history (1)

For 22 years with Ukraine as an independent state, there was no significant attempts to divide the country between East and West.

Then, just weeks after the country had weathered its most serious internal crisis since the break up of the USSR, suddenly the country must be split in two? It all started in Crimea a week after Yanukovych skipped town and then magically the same players there shifted over to the East, claiming "persecution" of Ethnic Russians that never had existed before.

The fact is though that the majority of persons in Eastern Ukraine do consider themselves ethnically Ukrainian (regardless of what language they primarily speak) and even now, they don't wish to see the country broken apart. Which is the goal of the armed separatists, many of whom are waiving the Russian flag and some of whom are actually Russian citizens.

sendero

(28,552 posts)
43. I know this..
Tue Jul 1, 2014, 04:59 PM
Jul 2014

.... if you are "Russian" and you want to live like a "Russian", move to fucking Russia. It's really that simple.

 

another_liberal

(8,821 posts)
66. Is that really you, God?
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 06:58 AM
Jul 2014

Far be it from mere humans to oppose thy divine will by questioning thy dictates! Thou sees and knows all, we can only obey thy mighty wisdon!

Russians, hear the sentence of your master's will! Leave your ancestral homes and livelihoods in the land now called "Ukraine." Leave at once, your almighty God has expelled thee!

(sarcasm)

sendero

(28,552 posts)
69. mocking common sense..
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 07:14 AM
Jul 2014

... might be fun for you, but it doesn't speak well of your general intelligence.

 

another_liberal

(8,821 posts)
71. Who are you to order ethnic Russian Ukrainians to leave their homes?
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 07:19 AM
Jul 2014

Those families have lived where they do for generations, if not centuries. They may not see the "common sense" in your idea.

sendero

(28,552 posts)
72. They physically live in another country..
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 07:31 AM
Jul 2014

.. if they don't like it they should fucking leave. Guess what, you don't get to peel off your chunk of land because you don't self-identify with your the country you live in. If you identify with another country, then go live there. Who is stopping you?

 

another_liberal

(8,821 posts)
74. The U. N. Charter enshrines the right of ethnic minorities to claim self-determination.
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 07:50 AM
Jul 2014

We even wrote the U. N. Charter, for crying out loud!

And we don't think twice about invoking that very article when it suits our "interests." For example: In the case of Kosovo, when the Albanian ethnic minority claimed independence from Serbia. Do you think the Albanians living in Kosovo should have just moved to Albania?

sendero

(28,552 posts)
75. I think every selfish.
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 08:06 AM
Jul 2014

... person that thinks the world should revolve around them is what starts wars. I think Crimea was enough, and NO COUNTRY ANYWHERE would allow these folks to do what they apparently think they can do.

So good luck to them. They can have their war and when it is all over everyone loses.

 

another_liberal

(8,821 posts)
77. The Chechnyans were called "terrorists" too . . .
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 08:40 AM
Jul 2014

I guess anyone who tries to claim their right to independence is called a terrorist these days?

 

another_liberal

(8,821 posts)
53. Whom exactly Poroshenko may be referring to . . .
Tue Jul 1, 2014, 07:35 PM
Jul 2014

Is probably not be all that important to the helpless women, children and old people his brutal offensive is injuring, killing and driving from their homes. He is a stone cold asshole in my book, period.

Response to another_liberal (Original post)

dipsydoodle

(42,239 posts)
17. Uptodate on the subject from BBC here
Tue Jul 1, 2014, 02:40 PM
Jul 2014

Russian President Vladimir Putin has condemned Ukraine for ending a truce with separatist rebels in the east.

He said his Ukrainian counterpart Petro Poroshenko must now bear direct responsibility for the conflict.

Mr Poroshenko blamed "criminal elements" as he ended the ceasefire and launched a full-scale military operation using aircraft and artillery.

>

A tank battle between rebels and government forces was reported near the town of Karlivka


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28113680 1 July 2014 Last updated at 17:28 GMT+1

karynnj

(59,475 posts)
15. While Poroshenko's rhetoric is bad, your equation of his "parasites" to mean "ethnic Russians"
Tue Jul 1, 2014, 02:23 PM
Jul 2014

is ridiculous. He is speaking of the separatists, who did not respect the ceasefire - essentially rejecting the possibility of a peace process including both new elections (RADA) and amnesty.

Do you think the Russia would stand for some group in their country declaring they are independent and a group of unelected people declaring they were the government? You know - some place like ..... Chechnya. Seems to me, Russia fought to keep them in their country.

As to the facebook post -- I think it important to establish whether he actually is the one who controls it. It seems the comments he made himself publicly are far less obnoxious. (If they weren't his, he needs to deny them.)

 

another_liberal

(8,821 posts)
25. I disagree . . .
Tue Jul 1, 2014, 03:19 PM
Jul 2014

It seems quite clear that is exactly what he meant. Though it hardly matters, because he will either succeed in his "ethnic cleansing" operation, or he will be removed from power by those hard-line factions who dictated the current course of action.

 

another_liberal

(8,821 posts)
32. Poroshenko's comments are open to interpretation . . .
Tue Jul 1, 2014, 03:35 PM
Jul 2014

I can well imagine, though, how Ukrainians of Russian descent interpreted them. You have to admit ethnic Russians are fleeing their battered homes by the thousands, and they are not fleeing in the direction of Kiev either!

Igel

(35,197 posts)
18. Putin didn't say he was going to protect ethnic Russians. Not this time.
Tue Jul 1, 2014, 02:58 PM
Jul 2014

He's clarified it a bit.

He wants to protect those who consider themselves part of the "russkii mir." That means Russian-speaking, but doesn't mean "ethnic Russians." It includes Russian-speaking ethnic Ukrainians who want to aspire to Russianness, and doesn't include Russian-speakers who would rather be something else.

The entire "russkii mir" bit--"the Russian world"--is usually fraught with ideological baggage of a nationalist stripe.

You're dividing people in a way that the Gubarevs and Borodais of the world divide them--the way the Zyuganovs, Dugins, and Zhirinovskys divide them. It's worth pointing out that if you look for the press that reflects their worldview, you're stuck with Russian state-pressured media and Donbas publications with small press runs. If you look at the Russian-speaking Donbas media, you find that most consider Gubarev and Borodai to be, um, goofy. Scary-goofy, but goofy nonetheless. It's possible to be so anti one group that you're stuck being de facto a much worse group without noticing it.

 

another_liberal

(8,821 posts)
28. Everything is relative . . .
Tue Jul 1, 2014, 03:24 PM
Jul 2014

The position of the observer is crucial to interpreting any information, it goes without saying.

lexx21

(321 posts)
20. The "simple" solution to all of this is....
Tue Jul 1, 2014, 03:04 PM
Jul 2014

for Putin to get out of the Ukraine all together and make it known in no uncertain terms that they will not have anything to do with annexation.

Russia wanted a deep water port. Crimea offered one, so he took it. It's like a fat kid in a candy shop with no self restraint. Ultimately he will try to take over the entirety of the Ukraine under the auspices of "maintaining the peace".

 

another_liberal

(8,821 posts)
30. That is rather one-sided . . .
Tue Jul 1, 2014, 03:29 PM
Jul 2014

Many others see the situation and its causes quite differently.

A case in point: Some would say that Crimea is no longer a part of Ukraine, so Russia is not actually "in" Ukraine.

lexx21

(321 posts)
33. Crimea is no longer a part of Ukraine..
Tue Jul 1, 2014, 03:38 PM
Jul 2014

because Russia annexed it. Up until that point it was part of the Ukraine.

Think about it this way.... you and I are neighbors. I decide to build a fence but I want to put in a big swimming pool so I encroach 20 extra feet onto your property. You complain to me about it but I use the argument "well, it was your yard, but now it's my yard because I wanted it for something". Does that sound like a reasonable argument to you?

That is pretty much what happened in Crimea. There were "ethnic Russians" living there, BUT it is part of the Ukraine. I don't know the back story as to if Russia sent in any agitators to the area to stir up trouble, but it honestly wouldn't surprise me. Now.... take a look at what Crimea has access to. They have a sea port. Look at the sea ports in Russia.... frozen over for a large portion of the year. Doesn't my scenario make more sense than just "oh, our people want to be under our rule. Lets be magnanimous and bring them into the fold...."?

 

cosmicone

(11,014 posts)
44. crimea was given to Ukraine in the soviet days
Tue Jul 1, 2014, 05:03 PM
Jul 2014

Russia graciously didn't demand it back during the split but when Ukraine decide to go to the West and betray its ethnic roots, Russia took it back. End of story.

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
47. Ukrainians are not ethnically Russian.
Tue Jul 1, 2014, 05:46 PM
Jul 2014

Why doesn't anyone bother to know the history of this region before saying incorrect things?

dipsydoodle

(42,239 posts)
46. Putin says Russia will hold Ukraine accountable after ceasefire ends
Tue Jul 1, 2014, 05:28 PM
Jul 2014

Defense Ministry spokesman Oleksiy Dmytrashkivsky said Tuesday that Ukraine had unleashed a "massive artillery and air offensive" following the end of a ceasefire.

After declaring a weeklong truce in June and then extending that agreement through Monday, Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko had evidently rejected the idea of waiting any longer for the separatists to begin peace efforts.

Russian officials immediately expressed "deep regret." President Vladimir Putin said Poroshenko would assume responsibility for future casualties and gathered his top security aides to discuss the "swiftly deteriorating" situation in Russia's western neighbor.

Over the weekend and again on Monday, German Chancellor Angela Merkel and French President Francois Hollande held teleconferences with Poroshenko and Putin. The two leaders found themselves in rare agreement with Putin, and urged Ukraine's president to extend the truce to give indirect talks between separatist commanders and the government a chance.

http://www.dw.de/putin-says-russia-will-hold-ukraine-accountable-after-ceasefire-ends/a-17751985


Events in Ukraine Provoked by West for Deterrence of Russia - Putin

MOSCOW, July 1 (RIA Novosti) – The events in Ukraine provoked by the West are a concentrated political expression of deterrence toward Russia and an attempt to create a tense center on the Russian border, Russian President Vladimir Putin said Tuesday.

“We all need to clearly understand that the events provoked by the West in Ukraine have become a concentrated political expression of deterrence toward Russia. Its roots go deep in history and it’s obvious that this policy has not stopped even after the ‘Cold War,’” Putin said during a meeting with Russian ambassadors and permanent representatives.

“Attempts have been made through Ukraine to rock the situation in the region and to create a tense center on our borders,” Putin said.

The Russian leader expressed hope that eventually the West would drop its ambitions of building a “global barracks” and acknowledge the right of each country to develop the way they see fit.

“I hope, nonetheless, that pragmatism will prevail, the West will drop its ambitions of trying to build a ‘global barracks,’ placing everyone in formation, imposing single rules of behavior and social life and start building relations on the basis of equality, mutual respect, and mutual interests,” Putin stressed.

http://en.ria.ru/world/20140701/190775497/Events-in-Ukraine-Provoked-by-West-for-Deterrence-of-Russia--.html

lanlady

(7,133 posts)
49. well, Moscow, you did annex Ukrainian territory (Crimea) and continue to invade their country
Tue Jul 1, 2014, 06:13 PM
Jul 2014

So stop with the faux outrage. Ukraine has a right to defend itself from the likes of you. Stop sending heavily armed Russian and Chechen mercenaries into a sovereign state.

 

another_liberal

(8,821 posts)
54. Good for Merkel and Hollande!
Tue Jul 1, 2014, 07:42 PM
Jul 2014

Maybe western Europe is not actually wedded to American imperial expansion after all? At any rate, it is wonderful to see some international leaders display sanity for a change.

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
50. Fighting engulfs key city as Ukraine truce ends
Tue Jul 1, 2014, 07:03 PM
Jul 2014

DONETSK, Ukraine — Rifle shots rang out Tuesday in the streets of the largest city in eastern Ukraine and panicked residents fled gunbattles as fighting flared with new intensity after the president ended a cease-fire.

Hopes for peace in eastern Ukraine appeared to sink, as separatist rebels fought to gain further ground and badly-trained and disorganized government troops did not seem capable of crushing the mutiny.

The shaky cease-fire had given European leaders 10 days to search in vain for a peaceful settlement, and its end raised the prospect of an escalation in a conflict that has already killed more than 400 people since April.

President Petro Poroshenko had called a unilateral cease-fire to try to persuade the rebels to lay down their weapons and hold peace talks. Some of the rebels signed onto the cease-fire as tentative negotiations began, but each side accused the other of repeated violations.

http://www.bellinghamherald.com/2014/07/01/3728820/residents-cower-as-ukraine-rebels.html

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
51. Pro-Russian rebels capture police HQ in Ukraine city
Tue Jul 1, 2014, 07:04 PM
Jul 2014

DONETSK, Ukraine —

The Interior Ministry headquarters in eastern Ukraine’s largest city fell to pro-Russia separatists Tuesday after a five-hour gunbattle that erupted hours after the Ukrainian president ended a ceasefire.

The shaky ceasefire had given European leaders 10 days to search for a peaceful settlement, and its end raised the prospect that fighting could flare with new intensity in a conflict that has already killed more than 400 people since April.

In Tuesday’s clashes, rebels fought for more ground, and badly trained and disorganized government troops seemed incapable of crushing the mutiny.

President Petro Poroshenko had called a unilateral ceasefire to try to persuade the rebels to lay down their weapons and hold peace talks. Some of the rebels signed onto the break in fighting as tentative negotiations began, but each side accused the other of repeated violations. When he ended the ceasefire, the president said the rebels were not serious about peace.

http://www.japantoday.com/category/world/view/pro-russian-rebels-capture-police-hq-in-ukraine-city

 

another_liberal

(8,821 posts)
52. Poroshenko says he wants to secure peace through making war . . .
Tue Jul 1, 2014, 07:30 PM
Jul 2014

I had really thought he might be more clever than that.

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
55. I don't know enough about him.
Tue Jul 1, 2014, 07:44 PM
Jul 2014

But I do know he lacks usable military assets, and I think it is a big mistake to be trying to assert himself that way.

I think it is not correct to see him as calling the shots in Kiev, far from it, although he does seem to have some influence. As with Putin in Russia or Obama in the USA, people overestimate the power of political figureheads, Presidents and such.

 

another_liberal

(8,821 posts)
56. Poroshenko seems to have been swayed by right wing demonstrations yesterday . . .
Tue Jul 1, 2014, 07:54 PM
Jul 2014

He certainly has spoken and acted since then as if he was trying to comply with their wishes. Personal threats by people like the Right Sector are not to be dismissed lightly.

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
57. I would hazard a guess that he is surrounded by enraged idiots
Tue Jul 1, 2014, 08:18 PM
Jul 2014

and is always trying to fend off the loudest at the moment. I have no reason to think he is a nice person, or not, though I don't think much of billionaires, but I would not take the job he has. He's not a military person, is he? So he is relying on advice, and not necessarily people whom he would choose for advisors. And sometimes you just want everybody to shut up so you can try to think of a way forward. Fat chance, right?

He has made some nice noises and tried some sound moves, but he doesn't get enough traction, enough obedience. Power is the expectation of being obeyed, that kind of power he does not have, at least so far.

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
58. Putin Warns Again of Force As Ukraine Fighting Spreads
Tue Jul 1, 2014, 09:05 PM
Jul 2014

MOSCOW — The simmering standoff in eastern Ukraine exploded into warfare early Tuesday, pushing the conflict to a dangerous new phase and prompting President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia to warn again that he reserves the right to use force to defend Russian-speaking citizens.

---

In the speech, the Russian president chastised Mr. Poroshenko for ending the cease-fire and urged renewed peace negotiations. But Mr. Putin also described the economic sanctions against Russia by the United States and its allies as “blackmail” and said the West had precipitated the conflict in Ukraine by blithely ignoring Russia’s interests for years.

At least 27 Ukrainian soldiers had been killed in clashes with rebels since Mr. Poroshenko announced the unilateral cease-fire on June 20, putting heavy political pressure on him to resume military action and cut off negotiations with the rebels, viewed as terrorists by many Ukrainians. Even some supporters of Mr. Poroshenko disapproved of his discussions with Mr. Putin, who is widely reviled after the invasion and annexation of Crimea earlier this year.

European leaders issued an ultimatum to Russia last week, demanding it do more to end the violence caused by the separatists. But attacks on government forces had continued, and with a Monday deadline passing with no progress toward a peace deal and no indication that the Europeans were prepared to move ahead with new sanctions, Mr. Poroshenko decided to end the cease-fire.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/02/world/europe/ukraine.html?_r=0

 

another_liberal

(8,821 posts)
59. If European Leaders want to see an end to fighting in Ukraine . . .
Tue Jul 1, 2014, 11:19 PM
Jul 2014

All the European Leaders have to do is tell Poroshenko to stop attacking in east Ukraine, or his aid will be cut off.

The fighting will be over in an hour or two.

dipsydoodle

(42,239 posts)
65. The background to that
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 06:51 AM
Jul 2014

was that the absence of the east would in the IMF's opinion could have a material effect on Ukraine's ability to repay loans.

This isn't like Greece. The IMF have already made clear in this instance that the bailout loans referred to cannot be made subject to either write downs of write offs at later dates.

From 2 weeks ago on the subject of restructuring :

Ukraine, creditors in talks on possible debt restructuring: IIF

Ukraine is holding talks with creditors on restructuring its foreign currency debts, an official from an international finance association said on Thursday following recent meetings with Ukrainian officials.

Lubomir Mitov, an economist with the Institute of International Finance, said that while Ukraine's finances were precarious, it was too soon to say whether it would need to change the terms of its debt.

Mitov said Ukrainian officials stressed they would avoid forcing any so-called haircuts on bondholders in a debt restructuring.

"The Ukrainians authorities made very clear to us that they would consider this only as a really, truly voluntary operation agreed by the bondholders," Mitov told journalists by phone. "A voluntary exchange or maturity extension could be one of the sources for financing."

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/06/19/us-ukraine-crisis-debt-idUSKBN0EU20R20140619

In the event they were to reschedule some current debt that could also have some bearing on the IMF loans too. I like the way they say "avoid forcing any so-called haircuts on bondholders" - as if they have any say in the matter.

 

another_liberal

(8,821 posts)
67. Too right . . .
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 07:11 AM
Jul 2014

The international lenders have already calculated how much profit they'll be getting from forcing Kiev to sell east Ukrainian factories and businesses, at a big discount, to new Western owners. They also see money to be made through just scrapping other concerns and then flooding the local market with Western manufactured products. The IMF and Wall Street investors fully intend to make money out of eastern Ukraine, no matter what happens to the people there.

Tommy_Carcetti

(43,085 posts)
79. Exactly what happens in such a situation?
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 09:53 AM
Jul 2014

Do the separatists then lay down their own weapons, leave the government buildings they took over, and seek some sort of political dialogue with Kyiv on decentralization measures?

Does the DNR and LNR (or "Novorossiya" with their little Confederate Battle Flag of theirs) continue on as independent nations, and could they even maintain themselves as independent nation(s)?

Does DNR/LNR appeal to Russia for annexation a la Crimea, as what is the stated goal of DNR/LNR leaders (but not the opinion of the majority of the population)?

Or does the region continue in its Mad Max-esqe dystopian chaos with rogue, unelected figures calling the shots and rampant crime and disorder amongst the people?

The problem is, the people in charge in that region aren't the most reputable of folks. You've got (actual) fascist Russian nationalists (Gubarev), criminals (Pushlin), "former" Russian FSB (Borodai, Girkin), and whatever the hell Bolotov is. So what exactly happens if these guys "win"? Can we ever expect any reasonable, rational behavior from these guys?

Contrary to what you might claim, this isn't some unilateral act of aggression against peace loving people by the Ukrainian government here. This is military vs. well-armed and equipped paramilitary. The seperatists had no interest in abiding by any cease fire. So what happens with a total withdraw of Ukrainian forces?



 

another_liberal

(8,821 posts)
81. Negotiation is always better than outright war on civilians . . .
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 01:17 PM
Jul 2014

One would think that much was a given?

Will the negotiations succeed? We can only hope such talks will bring peace; nevertheless, we know what continued civil war will bring to Ukraine: It will bring more war.

Tommy_Carcetti

(43,085 posts)
82. What you're suggesting isn't negotiation, however.
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 01:20 PM
Jul 2014

It's essentially Ukrainian surrender to these armed militants and acquiescence of this territory to Russia (given that is the stated goal of these seperatists).

The Ukrainian government attempted on several occasions to reach out to the separatists. They aren't interested in negotiating.

 

another_liberal

(8,821 posts)
89. The Ukrainian forces "reached out" alright . . .
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 06:56 PM
Jul 2014

The graveyards of Donetsk and Lugansk are filling up with civilians Kiev's butchers "touched" during their "reaching out."

 

another_liberal

(8,821 posts)
86. Western media?
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 01:38 PM
Jul 2014

They never make mistakes, and always tell only the truth, right?

Seriously though, the Washington Post is close to the very people who most want unrestricted access to the industrial areas of east Ukraine, those same areas now in revolt. I question the poll's methodology on that basis alone.

For example: how big was the sample area, all of the Ukraine, all of eastern Ukraine, all of the Donbas region, or just within the self-proclaimed republics? Who did the actual polling, Americans, eastern Ukrainians or western Ukrainians?

See what I mean?

Tommy_Carcetti

(43,085 posts)
87. No, actually I don't see what you mean.
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 01:42 PM
Jul 2014

I mean, Pew is one of the most respected polling agencies out there. If you want to dismiss it just because you don't like the results, go ahead.

FWIW:

http://www.pewglobal.org/2014/05/08/despite-concerns-about-governance-ukrainians-want-to-remain-one-country/

 

another_liberal

(8,821 posts)
88. It's not like there is no evidence most Russian-Ukrainians want independence . . .
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 06:50 PM
Jul 2014

Referendums were held in both "Republics," and both regions voted heavily for independence. Even more telling is the absence of any evidence refugees from the fighting are fleeing toward Kiev's forces. The people of Donetsk and Lugansk Republics are seeking safety in the East, not in the West. That is called, "Voting with your feet."

How would you explain those rather glaring contradictions to what the "Pew" organization claims to have found?

Tommy_Carcetti

(43,085 posts)
90. Those referendums were a farce and you know it.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 09:28 AM
Jul 2014

There were no voter rolls, limited polling stations, flimsy paper ballots that could easily be reproduced, and no outside monitoring whatsoever. You'd be a fool to put stock in any election with so many glaring deficiencies.

And yes, contrary to what you might think, there are a significant amount of refugees heading both east and west from the war torn regions.

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/117921/refugees-ukraine-thousands-have-fled-their-homes

Some have even taken up residence in Yanukovych's old digs:

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2014/0624/Ukrainian-refugees-find-haven-with-a-dash-of-presidential-posh

I mean, it's really silly of you to try to turn the situation into some type of public opinion poll, but your underlying assertion is not correct.

 

another_liberal

(8,821 posts)
91. Maybe the poll you quoted is a farce as well . . .
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 01:39 PM
Jul 2014

Hmmmm?

As to your other point: Just how many thousands of your so-called "refugees" have taken possession President Yanukovich's personal residence? Over a hundred thousand real refugees are already being cared for on the Russian side of the east Ukrainian border.

Tommy_Carcetti

(43,085 posts)
93. You're asking if a poll conducted by Pew, with documented methodology, is a farce?
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 05:27 PM
Jul 2014

Sure. Okay.

Regarding the whole business of refugees. I have no problem admitting that thousands of people have fled towards Russia. However, you seem to have a problem admitting that there have also been thousands of people who have fled west towards calmer portions of Ukraine. Why you choose to try to turn such a situation into some sort of public opinion poll, I have no clue.

Xolodno

(6,334 posts)
92. I'm wondering if there is something else going on here...
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 04:57 PM
Jul 2014

If Poroshenko gives east Ukraine a lot of autonomy.....those on the right are not going to like it and look to boot him at next opportune moment.

Poroshenko may need to prove to them that east Ukraine is unwinable and cannot be tamed. Was able to prove it using the make up of the military the right wanted. Now with a recent re-org, perhaps prove it even with his "vision". He needs to prove that eastern Ukraine is sufficiently armed and trained well enough that not only can they repel any advance....with enough losses on their side, could be in danger themselves.

Thus he's saving the rights ass by giving the east more autonomy.

Latest Discussions»Latest Breaking News»Ukraine launches offensiv...