Rockets in Syrian Attack Carried Large Payload of Gas, Experts Say

[Turborama]

Source: NYT

A new study of images apparently from the Syrian attack last month concludes that the rockets delivering toxic sarin gas to neighborhoods around Damascus held up to 50 times more nerve agent than previously estimated, a conclusion that could solve the mystery of why there were so many more victims than in previous chemical attacks.

The study, by leading weapons experts, also strongly suggests that the mass of toxic material could have come only from a large stockpile. American, British and French officials have charged that only the Syrian government and not the rebels was in position to make such large quantities of deadly toxins.

=snip=

In interviews and reports, the two weapons specialists said their analysis of rocket parts and wreckage posted online suggested that the warheads carried toxic payloads of about 50 liters (13 gallons), not the one or two liters (up to half a gallon) of nerve agent that some weapons experts had previously estimated.

“It’s a clever design,” Dr. Postol said of the munitions in an interview. “It’s clever not only in how it was implemented but in the effectiveness of its dispersal. It accounts for the large number of causalities.”

Read more: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/05/world/middleeast/rockets-in-syrian-attack-carried-large-payload-of-gas-experts-say.html?from=world&_r=0

---

Much more on this at the link.

[Botany]

1. This is a really complex problem with no good solutions

n/t

[TwilightGardener]

2. IT'S ALL A LIE!!11!!

Just getting a head start.

[RobertEarl]

43. You are wising up?

Did Judy Miller's friends write this article? It is the bloodthirsty NYT.

[Alamuti Lotus]

3. Duplicate posting; you should lock this, like you do with most everything else these days

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014585220

[Turborama]

5. If you think something violates the SOP you should alert

Instead of calling out hosts for doing their job.

BTW The other article is a completely different report.

[bananas]

41. Ted Postol's name jumps out for those of us who followed Star Wars

This is an extremely important story and not related at all to the other one.
Thanks for posting it.

[madrchsod]

7. not everyone on this site is here everyday

i was here on and off here yesterday and i did`t see the other post

[Turborama]

9. The other article is a completely different story

It's about a report by the head of Germany's BND.

[Alamuti Lotus]

10. The last posting on that particular thread was 10min before Turbo's new thread

Things are locked for much less and with clearly biased application.

No, I haven't had something of mine locked and throwing a fit in response; it's just become very obvious.

[Turborama]

20. That OP is not the same story. If you still dispute this, alert on it as an SOP violation

If you have a problem with how the hosts are doing their job here you are free to tell Skinner about it in ATA: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1259

[Orrex]

33. Determining whether or not it's a duplicate is vital to our national security

Nothing, and I mean nothing, is more vital during this difficult time.

[Agschmid]

8. I don't feel it is actually a dupe...

Threads are quite different.

[Sand Wind]

12. This post has nothing to do with the other....not a dupe. Nt

[muriel_volestrangler]

18. That earlier thread was a suggestion that earlier attacks were diluted

This is about the volme the rockets can carry. It's 2 different hypotheses.

[madrchsod]

4. of course it`s a lie.....

the obama government lackeys in the ny times made up this story......

[Sand Wind]

13. Of course...

Now I can take my green tea.

[jakeXT]

6. Maybe the Iraqis can help ?

In an interview, Mr. Lloyd said the manufacture of the rockets, if not the deadly nerve agent, appeared to be within the capabilities of both the Syrian government and the rebels.

But Stephen Johnson, a former British Army chemical warfare expert who is now a forensic expert at Cranfield University, at Shrivenham, said if the estimate of a 50-liter payload was correct, only the Syrian government could have achieved such a large volume of production.

Iraq claims foiling al-Qaeda nerve-gas plot

Iraq's defence ministry has said that it has intercepted an al-Qaeda cell working to produce poisonous gas for attacks within the country as well as in Europe and North America.

The group of five men built two facilities in Baghdad to produce sarin and mustard gas, using instructions from another al-Qaeda group, spokesman Mohammed al-Askari said on Saturday.

The suspected al-Qaeda members were producing sarin nerve gas, Iraq's defence ministry claimed (Reuters)

The members of the cell were preparing to launch attacks domestically, and also had a network to smuggle the toxins to neighbouring countries and to Europe, Canada and the US, Askari said.

....

So far, the group has largely refrained from waging violence outside Iraq, but earlier this year it publicly said it was linked to Syria's Jabhat al-Nusra, a rebel group fighting the Assad regime.
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2013/06/20136117362322130.html

[TM99]

11. I will not claim that this is a lie, but

I do have a serious reservation.

While the weapons experts may be totally above board and well respected in their field, they are basing their analysis and conclusions on "rocket parts and wreckage posted online".

Did they analyze photos? Youtube video?

But here is the part that concerns me the most.

The NYT articles starts by stating:

"A new study of images apparently from the Syrian attack last month..."

So the images are apparently but not proven for certain to be of the Syrian chemical attack. So there is some question. If there is a question, then how can the conclusion drawn from photos that have not yet been proven to be of the actual attack be conclusive as to the source being governmental due to the size of the payload?

It is these types of very small inconsistencies and questions but with absolute definitive conclusions being drawn which definitely fit the narrative of Assad responsibility and therefore war, that makes me uncertain as to what exactly happened, is happening, and what the plans are to deal with what ever really did happen.

[John2]

15. I think it is irrelevant.

There is going top be a war by the United states government. They have been looking for opportunities to start a War on the [part of Israel and several of their other Allies. Syria has become a red line for both sides in the conflict. It can't be avoided. I think the Iranians,Syria,Hezbullah, and several other countries have secretly been preparing for it just in case the U.S. attacks.

I don't think all Syria's military secrets has been revealed. I think the first phase failed, which was taken out President Assad. I think people believe the Syrian people will start running over to the rebels if they see the Assad regime fall, but I don't think this is just about one man but millions of people, fighting against foreign oppression. I think the assault by the U.S. will unify people against a common foe like the U.S. and Israel.

Many of these mercenaries, have tried to bully and scare people into submitting to them. John Kerry is putting on an Act. John McCain has never gave a dam about people except his own arrogance. Don't forget the video where he was caught lying to his Constituent,whom was a teabagger. This is President Obama and John Kerry's buddy. I'm just glad, that I'm not in the military now to down for these clowns decisions. It isn't for the United States period but for them and their arrogance.

[blm]

19. So can you name any American who actively engaged with Assad for diplomatic

solutions in Syria over the last 8 years?

Did Arab Spring have any significant effect on Assad's state of mind?

[OnyxCollie]

29. A question about John Kerry:

Is he following in the footsteps of his predecessors, Hillary Clinton and Condi Rice, and directing diplomats to spy and surreptitiously collect biometric data, like passwords, fingerprints, iris scans, and DNA, or is he his own man, immune to the constraints of the office of the Secretary of State?

[blm]

36. I asked my question many times with no answer.

I answered many ignorant questions that didn't deserve answers.

I await an answer to my question.

[TM99]

28. I disagree that it is irrelevant, however,

I can agree with much of the rest that your wrote.

I, too, am glad that I am no longer fighting wars for sociopathic business interests disguised by the flowery rhetoric of 'bringing democracy', 'humanitarian missions', and 'we have to fight them over there so we don't fight them over here.'

[Turborama]

22. The answers to your questions are in the article. n/t

[TM99]

26. I read the article,

and no it is not.

There is only self-referential 'intelligence' from the states that support the regime change and war.

[Turborama]

30. .

"Did they analyze photos? Youtube video?"

The new study was conducted by Richard M. Lloyd, an expert in warhead design, and Theodore A. Postol, a physicist at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. They based their investigation on scores of online videos and photographs posted since the Aug. 21 attack sent thousands of sick and dying Syrians to hospitals in the Damascus suburbs.

"how can the conclusion drawn from photos that have not yet been proven to be of the actual attack be conclusive as to the source being governmental due to the size of the payload? "

No such conclusion was made. In fact...

In an interview, Mr. Lloyd said the manufacture of the rockets, if not the deadly nerve agent, appeared to be within the capabilities of both the Syrian government and the rebels.

[TM99]

31. My first question

was a bit more rhetorical.

Analyzing photos that have not yet been sourced. These are online videos and photos. What are the sources? Syrians? Israeli Intelligence?

In other words, these men were not actually looking at the object in front of them. They were drawing conclusions based on the best possible information presented to them.

If you know anything about expert witnesses, this can be a real issue.

Your quote from Mr. Lloyd, which I read, is still contradicted by the NYT article itself which states:

The study, by leading weapons experts, also strongly suggests that the mass of toxic material could have come only from a large stockpile. American, British and French officials have charged that only the Syrian government and not the rebels was in position to make such large quantities of deadly toxins.

So which is it? Do we accept Mr. Lloyd or the US, British, & French officials pushing the war?

This is what I mean yet again by inconsistent and incongruencies. It gives one pause, or it should, if they are paying attention.

[Turborama]

32. I can see the confusion, but there's not a contradiction, really

The NYT quote is about who is capable of producing such large quantities of the "deadly toxins".

The quote from Mr. Lloyd, whose conclusion you took issue with, states both antagonists are capable of manufacturing the rockets.

[TM99]

34. It is not confusion.

I took issue with the intelligence and the experts. I also take issue with the way they are wed into an article that supports a particular conclusion when the UN has not even released a preliminary report of their weapon experts who were actually on the ground.

[Turborama]

37. I agree to a certain extent with where you're coming from with regards to the article itself

But we were discussing your original questions. Going back to where this all started, the "conclusion" you "took issue with" originally and asked about was...

"how can the conclusion drawn from photos that have not yet been proven to be of the actual attack be conclusive as to the source being governmental due to the size of the payload?"

As I pointed out, no such conclusion was made by the experts from the photos and videos. In fact...

In an interview, Mr. Lloyd said the manufacture of the rockets, if not the deadly nerve agent, appeared to be within the capabilities of both the Syrian government and the rebels.

[legin]

14. definition of an expert

an opinionated shit working for some narrow interst, with initials after his name

[legin]

17. Why do you

if you are defined as an expert, do you get to say what you like and you are above all scrunity as to what you say.

I'M A BLEDIN EXPERT ON EVERYTHING
so don't even think about questioning my judgements on anything

[legin]

21. Experts are compleat ho's

There were plenty of them saying there were weapons of mass distruction in Iraq

[GeorgeGist]

24. I checked out Postol ...

he seems very legit. He's not exactly a friend of the Defense department.

[bananas]

40. Ted Postol is well known for his outspoken criticism of Star Wars

He has a lot of credibility.

[LanternWaste]

38. That is, I imagine, your expert opinion...

That is, I imagine, your expert opinion...

[freshwest]

47. LOL! Well played.

[Sunlei]

16. yes, that youtube video that showed the 2 BMW semi tractor rocket launchers, had blue containers

tipped on the rocket bodies. looked about 50 gallon size to me, not 13 gallon size.

The rebels don't have rocket launchers on semi trailers, pulled by BMW trucks, do they?

guess we will know when that toxic gas falls into the 'wrong hands' when people who get their hands on it manage to throw little containers all over the world. damn those gunrunner war profiteers to hell for selling that crap in the first place.

[Turborama]

23. By "gunrunner war profiteers"

Do you mean Russia?

They're the arms dealer that's making a huge profit out of the civil war in Syria, after all. Why aren't we hearing any outcries about that?

[Sunlei]

25. I guess it's russia but probably smaller corps with investors. bet some corp 'profiteers' are usa?

They should name the gunrunner corps, so the entire world can know who sells this stuff. One of the trucks clearly had a BMW logo on the front and looked brand new, the other semi truck looked older but had the same trailer rocket launcher.

[jmowreader]

42. Do you have a link to this video?

[snappyturtle]

27. .............

[Ash_F]

35. "They based their investigation on scores of online videos and photographs"

So they didn't go there.

Yeah, still waiting on the report from the doctors on the ground.

[gussmith]

39. With All the NRA Spying

how come the CIA has not identified the chemical producing factories in the world, and taken them out?

[ileus]

44. but...but the rebels gassed themselves! !!!

[Evasporque]

45. Russians did it.

Putin is a dick. He would do something like that just to have an excuse to be a bigger dick.

[freshwest]

48. Because he's not as tall as Obama:

"Barack? You are hurting my hand. Very much."

(Putin 'welcomes' President Obama to the G20 Summit)

https://twitter.com/TheObamaDiary/status/375614448800497665/photo/1

[daleo]

46. I doubt if a court would accept this evidence

They may well be sincere, but there has probably been tons of stuff posted online about this, some real, some fake, some by witnesses, some by intelligence agencies. How could they tell what' trustworthy in all that?

[fujiyama]

49. I have an idea

Assuming this is true, why not let Al Qaeda led rebels to capture the stockpiles! It's a brilliant move. Then we'll have an excuse to just open another base. After all, we're in the neighborhood already. What's a little expansion? I doubt the other neighbors will mind. What, you're saying they will? Well fuck 'em. We'll just MAKE them like us. By bombing them.

Because bombing makes everything better!