France stands by veil ban after riots

[alp227]

Source: Reuters

France's interior minister on Monday defended a ban on wearing full-face veils in public after a police check on a Muslim woman caused two nights of rioting near Paris, exposing tensions in immigrant-heavy suburbs.

The 2010 law was brought in by conservative former president Nicolas Sarkozy and targets burqa and niqab garments that conceal the face, rather than the headscarf that is more common among French Muslim women.

A police check on a couple in the southwest suburb of Trappes provoked an angry confrontation that led overnight on Friday to a police station being surrounded by several hundred people, some hurling rocks. Another building was torched in several hours of street violence that led to six arrests.

"Police did their job perfectly," Interior Minister Manuel Valls told RTL radio.

Read more: http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/07/22/us-france-riots-idUSBRE96L0J020130722

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Full face coverings do NOT belong in a modern, secular society. Even religious freedom has its limits.

[msongs]

1. odd how men DO NOT have to wear full face masks isn't it? nt

[MrNJ]

2. Good.

It's nice to see a country which doesn't let superstitions - no matter how closely held - influence its policy.

[JimboBillyBubbaBob]

18. Well said,

well said indeed!

[pnwmom]

3. It's not really a "veil ban." It's a ban of face-veils, masks, etc., whether worn

by men or by women -- anything that disguises the face.

[snagglepuss]

4. Tolerating intolerance will destroy the fabric of secular societies. A line in the sand

must be drawn.

[cosmicone]

5. Culture of peace has another paradoxical reaction. n/t

[Comrade Grumpy]

6. OP, would you support on a ban on veils in the US?

And how would that gibe with our First Amendment?

[alp227]

7. Clothing: not always speech.

I don't think a federal ban on wearing full-face coverings in public would be constitutional, but they'd work as local ordinances, I think. It's a matter of public safety too.

[Comrade Grumpy]

11. The public safety argument seems like a subterfuge...

...for attempting to limit what is essentially the free exercise of religion.

Unless you can point me to a list of veiled attackers.

Actually, as I ponder it, I don't get the public safety argument. If you're a deranged militant Islamic suicide bomber, what difference does a veil make? I suppose we could carry photographs of all known deranged militant Islamic suicide bombers, and a veil would make it more difficult to spot them. But if I were an unknown deranged militant Islamic suicide bomber--and not just a stupid one--I think I would go for the casual attire look, while all the frightened people are looking for that woman in a veil.

[riderinthestorm]

13. Nope. Full face veils and burqas are not religious. They are nowhere in the Quran

nor are they anywhere mandated in any of the hadiths...

Not religious.

[Comrade Grumpy]

20. Tell that to the women who want to wear them.

[Igel]

27. IT's France.

A lot of their secularism is rooted in staunch anti-clericalism. The idea was to reduce the Church's authority and power to zero by removing it not only from government but largely from the public sphere. It worked.

However there's also a government purpose in limiting the full face-covering and a number of states have tussled with this in the courts. The results before I tuned out were mixed. In one case I remember the woman was allowed to be a MBO (mobile black object) on her drivers license. You can see how that would be a problem. How do you prove that the MBO in the car is the MBO in the drivers license? What good's the ID for identification?

In another state, a woman was told that objection or not, she had to have her face photographed for her ID and, if stopped, had to show her face to the police officer.

Don't remember how that was resolved.

Public safety in general shouldn't be an issue. Granted, militants have cross-dressed to escape or to infiltrate (nothing like a burqa-wearing bomber that has to use the men's room). But all kinds of masks get used. As long as there's a requirement that, if asked by somebody in authority presenting sufficient credentials it can be lowered with an uprising, that should suffice.

[sulphurdunn]

10. In Virginia

Muslim women or anyone unwilling to get a full face mugshot won't get a drivers license, religious convictions notwithstanding.

[riderinthestorm]

12. Full face veils are cultural, not religious. They are not a required religious garment

And France has a very, very different cultural view on religion in the public square than the US - especially religious clothing and symbols...

[papa3times]

8. Ban on veils is

something the veil wearers don't like and for sure the ones who make them wear these ridiculous things in the first place. Here is a solution. France will stop the ban when there is religious freedom and expression allowed and tolerated in all Islamic countries.

[azurnoir]

9. so do you think the US should follow suit? n/t

[The Wizard]

14. The only time people should be

is disguise in on Halloween. Religion and superstition are a form of witch burning.

[azurnoir]

19. but the face veil is a disguise some are even see through

a burqa could be disguise but that is different

[The Wizard]

15. They have the right to relocate

to a culture that embraces the subjugation of women disguised as superstition. If we had any guts we'd do it here too. Disguises are for bank robbers and children on Halloween.

[azurnoir]

24. you mean like the US were face veils are allowed?

well unless of course you're 'lucky' enough to live in one of those areas where they had the foresight to instituted anti sharia law laws, cause we all know how liberal towards women those areas are-right

[Ash_F]

16. If France didn't want Muslims, maybe they should not have forcibly colonized Muslim countries

Most of their immigrants are from Algeria and Morocco. That's what you get for your exploitative colonial system.

Now their superpower status is gone and they are all upset about it. (the French right, French left and moderates are good people).

[Happyhippychick]

17. Is it the women who wear the veils who are objecting or the men who want them to wear the veil?

[Comrade Grumpy]

21. "Muslim women flout French ban of veil after court fines two women"

http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2011/09/22/168202.html

Kenza Drider’s posters for the French presidential race are ready to go, months before the official campaign begins. There she is, the “freedom candidate,” pictured standing in front of a line of police - a forbidden veil hiding her face.

Drider declared her longshot candidacy Thursday, the same day that a French court fined two women who refuse to remove their veils. All three are among a group of women mounting an attack on the law that has banned the garments from the streets of France since April, and prompted similar moves in other European countries.

They are bent on proving that the ban contravenes fundamental rights and that women who hide their faces stand for freedom, not submission.

“When a woman wants to maintain her freedom, she must be bold,” Drider told The Associated Press in an interview.

[Happyhippychick]

22. Thank you CG!

[Ash_F]

23. Supposedly they want to protect women from being told what to do.

...buy telling women what to do.

[ZombieHorde]

25. Good. Women need to be told how to dress and how not to dress.

[bravenak]

26. I think women should be allowed to dress how they please.

I'm not religious at all. But I live and let live.

[alp227]

32. I think people navigating public space should dress appropriately.

Don't cover too much of yourself like your face our too little.

[bravenak]

34. Who gets to decide what's appropriate?

I live in Alaska, half the year I have my face covered up to my eyeballs and a cap and scarf over my head. Don't want frostbite. Not to mention my parka, it's huge and goes to my knees. I'd be less covered up in a burqa, honestly.
In the summer you can't keep clothes on me.
I dress as I feel comfortable, it's not hurting anybody not to see my face in the winter. Unless they think I'm cute.

[jessie04]

28. Totally racist.

I think its arrogant for one culture to dictate to another culture what they should wear.

Maybe if France stops persecuting them, that might help.

[alp227]

31. I thought it was a sweeping ban on full face coverings in public.

It's a matter of public safety not culture. Penalties aren't limited to Muslim women.

[Heywood J]

36. What if a culture dictates that I should wear a face covering, even when I go

to the bank?

[totodeinhere]

37. Not racist. Muslims are of all races including whites. "Bigoted" would be a more accurate term. n/t

[maxsolomon]

29. What a difficult issue to legislate and enforce

I can't blame France for wanting to oppose the misogyny inherent in the niqab/burkha, and give younger women being raised in immigrant Muslim families more freedom to assimilate into French culture. The state can (and should) draw the line at banning some religious/cultural practices, like Female Genital Mutilation.

But face veils are clothing, not permanent physical damage. I'd rather there were a way to PERSUADE muslim elders, male & female alike, that they are unneccessary. And the women arguing politically for their "freedom" to wear the veil, Stockholm Syndrome is the only term I can think of.

In Seattle, I see more and more niqabs, hijabs, burkhas as our Somali and Iraqi immigrant population increases. Little girls standing on the corner waiting for the school bus, with their hair hidden from Allah. It's absurd, but only assimilation and persuasion will reduce it - not laws.

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

30. Reminds me of catholic school being told how to dress

Irony must be dead in France

[JoeyT]

33. Who gets to set the limits religious freedom stops at?

Any argument people can make about the burqa/niqab being oppressive applies to the entire structure of several churches in the US. Most churches everywhere are patriarchal systems that dominate the lives of the women that are members. That doesn't mean we should outlaw them: It means we need to set up systems that prevent the men from using force or coercion to keep women in those religions.

If the objection is that they're being forced to wear them, then use the force of law to punish the men forcing women to wear them. They won't, because that isn't the objection. The objection is that they're being forced to look at them, and they'll usually admit as much.

When I was young my Native American grandmother used to tell me stories about what it was like to be a member of a minority that was viewed as uncivilized barbarians. So I automatically take a dim view of white men telling brown women what to do to help them be civilized.

[alp227]

35. "The objection is that they're being forced to look at them, and they'll usually admit as much."

Well, for the sake of public safety, shouldn't people walking down the street show their faces so others aren't afraid of getting mugged? (Of course in the wintertime there are exceptions.)

[JoeyT]

38. I don't pass a lot of women with

scarves covering their faces, even in winter, but when I have it's never once occurred to me that they might try to rob me or kill me.

I have the same lack of concern passing someone whose face is hidden in a hoodie.

How far are we going to take dress codes for public safety? If we force everyone to wear skin-tight spandex, no one will ever have to worry about a concealed weapon again. But you wouldn't want to live in Mississippi either.