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Galraedia

(5,022 posts)
Thu Jul 18, 2013, 12:20 AM Jul 2013

House Republicans reject proposal to ban gun sales to suspected terrorists

Source: Raw Story

A proposal to ban the sale of firearms to individuals on the FBI’s terrorist watch list was defeated by House Republicans on Wednesday.

Reps. Nita Lowey (D-NY) and David Price (D-NC) offered an amendment to the Commerce, Justice, Science (CJS) Appropriations bill that would have given the U.S. Department of Justice authority to block suspected terrorists from purchasing firearms and explosives.

“Terrorists are knowingly exploiting our laws,” Lowey said, citing American-born al Qaeda spokesman Adam Gadahn.

The amendment was defeated in the House Appropriations Committee by a 19-29 vote.

Read more: http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/07/17/house-republicans-rejected-bill-to-ban-gun-sales-to-suspected-terrorists/

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House Republicans reject proposal to ban gun sales to suspected terrorists (Original Post) Galraedia Jul 2013 OP
Can someone explain a2liberal Jul 2013 #1
I have the same question. No one likes the poor old 5th. Eleanors38 Jul 2013 #2
Aaah ----I have a list of 205 (or 57 or 81) "known Communists." warrant46 Jul 2013 #11
Same reason it's okay crim son Jul 2013 #3
Same reason suspected murderers have to surrender their geek tragedy Jul 2013 #4
There's a difference between "suspected felon"... krispos42 Jul 2013 #5
So your position is that so long as a suspected felon successfully evades arrest, he should geek tragedy Jul 2013 #12
No. krispos42 Jul 2013 #14
How many of the DOJ's 'suspected terrorist list" members do you suppose are available geek tragedy Jul 2013 #17
Lots of them. krispos42 Jul 2013 #19
"Convicted felons can't vote, can they? At least in most states." geek tragedy Jul 2013 #27
They can't while in prison krispos42 Jul 2013 #30
Ted Kennedy's name was placed on that list hack89 Jul 2013 #22
Terrorist watch list and no fly list are different lists nt geek tragedy Jul 2013 #24
The no fly list is created from the terrorist watch list hack89 Jul 2013 #25
People on the terrorist watch list are not wanted for any crime hack89 Jul 2013 #18
That's the no-fly list, different list. nt geek tragedy Jul 2013 #23
The no fly list is created from the terrorist watch list hack89 Jul 2013 #26
Firearms should be a privilege, & not "every teabagger's birthright" Kolesar Jul 2013 #13
It's an American's right, including yours. krispos42 Jul 2013 #15
^incoherent thesis Kolesar Jul 2013 #16
"should be" is your opinion krispos42 Jul 2013 #21
The real question is why was this motion OFFERED in the first place??? happyslug Jul 2013 #6
what about a pending case for domestic violence? CreekDog Jul 2013 #7
I'm not sure, but I'd hope not davidpdx Jul 2013 #9
So the NSA can monitor the communications of an American citizen who talked to someone Maedhros Jul 2013 #8
This is the list that Ted Kennedy's name was placed on. hack89 Jul 2013 #20
Why do Republicans love terrorists? Berlum Jul 2013 #10
Republicans have and want to continue to sell guns to anyone with cash. Sunlei Jul 2013 #28
Ah, so the GOP finally admits they are pro-terrorist! City Lights Jul 2013 #29
Bush creates a BS terrorist no-fly list, and DU is up in arms NickB79 Jul 2013 #31
Sure would be nice to see some of the names and what got them on the list. ileus Jul 2013 #32

a2liberal

(1,524 posts)
1. Can someone explain
Thu Jul 18, 2013, 12:28 AM
Jul 2013

why, even if you support gun control, background checks, etc., it is ok to block someone from owning a gun because they're on some agency's "suspected" list, with no trial/conviction? That (well, the existence of those lists in general) offends my due process sensibilities so much more than any 2nd amendment concerns

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
4. Same reason suspected murderers have to surrender their
Thu Jul 18, 2013, 12:52 AM
Jul 2013

guns. Of course, if Gadahn were in the US he'd be in jail and thus not allowed to buy a gun anyways.

krispos42

(49,445 posts)
5. There's a difference between "suspected felon"...
Thu Jul 18, 2013, 01:04 AM
Jul 2013

...and a person arrested for and charged with a felony.


 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
12. So your position is that so long as a suspected felon successfully evades arrest, he should
Thu Jul 18, 2013, 07:46 AM
Jul 2013

be able to buy firearms?

krispos42

(49,445 posts)
14. No.
Thu Jul 18, 2013, 09:24 AM
Jul 2013

As long as the justice system is unable to bring felony charges against somebody, he or she should be able to do a whole host of things, including vote, speak, pray, own guns, get an abortion, and have privacy against unreasonable searches and seizures.


If you can lose a constitutional right simply because you get put on a list by an executive-agency bureaucrat (i.e., without due process) then why not more of them? I can image the Republicans eagerly jumping on the bandwagon that a woman on the terrorist watch list can't get an abortion.


Once the justice system can file felony charges against you, then I can see things changing.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
17. How many of the DOJ's 'suspected terrorist list" members do you suppose are available
Thu Jul 18, 2013, 09:31 AM
Jul 2013

for questioning?

Ex-cons and those convicted of domestic abuse aren't deprived of the right to an abortion, so the analogy is silly.

krispos42

(49,445 posts)
19. Lots of them.
Thu Jul 18, 2013, 09:37 AM
Jul 2013

People routinely get stopped from flying at the airport because they find out they (or, also commonly, that somebody with a similar name) is on the terrorist watch list.

There aren't follow-up arrests or anything like that. You're just... on a list. No more flying for you, citizen.



Convicted felons can't vote, can they? At least in most states. Even after they are done serving time. Nor can they own guns. So the idea of a convicted felon permanently losing rights is already established

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
27. "Convicted felons can't vote, can they? At least in most states."
Thu Jul 18, 2013, 09:49 AM
Jul 2013

Actually, they can and do vote in the vast majority of states.

http://felonvoting.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=286

Note that in Louisiana it's easier for convicted felons to buy a gun than to vote.

krispos42

(49,445 posts)
30. They can't while in prison
Thu Jul 18, 2013, 11:12 AM
Jul 2013

And for ¾ of them, getting out of prison doesn't get them the right to vote either. There are still a lot of rights removed (by due process) while a convicted person is out on parole and/or probation


So we've established that rights can be abridged even after their jail term is ended. ¼ of states have laws that a felony conviction permanently removes your right to vote unless you appeal it and your appeal is approved.

Convicted felons also can't own guns again, ever. I think that's federal law, and on the ATF form 4473 (application for a federal background check).



I have no problem with people charged by a court of law with terrorism being unable to fly, or being barred from buying or possessing guns.

I have a problem with that happening by executive fiat.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
25. The no fly list is created from the terrorist watch list
Thu Jul 18, 2013, 09:43 AM
Jul 2013

to be one one means you have to be on the other.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
18. People on the terrorist watch list are not wanted for any crime
Thu Jul 18, 2013, 09:36 AM
Jul 2013

it is just a list of "suspicious" people that is secretly compiled with no transparency and no due process.

Remember that Ted Kennedy was on it?

Kolesar

(31,182 posts)
13. Firearms should be a privilege, & not "every teabagger's birthright"
Thu Jul 18, 2013, 08:10 AM
Jul 2013

Even barbers have to go through background checks to do what they want to do in my state. The public should control who buys any firearm in America.

krispos42

(49,445 posts)
15. It's an American's right, including yours.
Thu Jul 18, 2013, 09:27 AM
Jul 2013

Background checks are not a problem.


But rights are not subject to majority whims.

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
6. The real question is why was this motion OFFERED in the first place???
Thu Jul 18, 2013, 01:36 AM
Jul 2013

You have to understand, if you are on the list, you may not know it till you try to fly. If you do not know if your name is on the list, the people who control the list can not be compelled to show if your name is on the list till it causes you some sort of harm. What harm do you incur if your name in on the list and you never fly? The answer is none and thus no grounds to file an action to get your name off the list.

Thus it takes a denial of the right to fly to give you a cause of action. The problem is if you are denied to right to fly, did you have other options and if you did you have the legal duty to minimize your lost by taking that option. If you do not, again you have no cause of action for you did not minimize your lost. On domestic flights you have the option of driving.

Now, if you are denied and file in court, the court can dismiss the action due to the problem being moot. You were denied a flight, the flight has flown, thus you can NOT get on that flight and any thus the action is moot. If you claim you are worried about it is the future, the court could rule they will rule on that whenever it occurs and you get in front of them BEFORE the flight flys. i.e. every time you try to fly, by the time you get to court, the ability to fly on that flight is gone and thus the action is moot (now the courts MAY work around this, for example in Roe vs Wade the Court ruled the Plaintiff had standing even through she had given birth to the child she technically wanted to abort, previous efforts to get an abortion issue in front of the US Supreme Court had failed on mootness grounds,. i.e. the mother gave birth thus her right to an abortion was moot).

I see Courts adopting the same policy as to flights, the ban is on US flights, internal US Flights you have the option to fly or take the train (Length of travel is NOT an issue), on oversea flights that involves treaties and the US can deny anyone on those flights for any reason so if you are denied because you are the list, the courts will say the list, as applied to overseas flights, is governed by treaty and nothing they can do.

Firearms is a different area. If you are denied you can then file an action in court on why you are on the list, and the court would have to rule on that issue. As long as you want to buy the weapon in dispute, the case is NOT moot. Thus you could force whoever controls the list to defend why your name is on the list and the court will have to rule on that issue, can not avoid making the decision on the grounds the issue is moot.

I suspect this is why it was proposed by two Democrats, it would permit someone to challenge they name on the list and the demand can not become moot due to the weapon being sold to a third party. I also suspect that is why it was defeated by the GOP majority in the house. The GOP does NOT want a court case that can rule the no fly list is unconstitutional. Remember the Proposition 8 ruling by the US Supreme Court was NOT that it violated the 14th Amendment but that since the California Attorney General or the Governor was NOT defending the law, no one else had standing to do so. The same with the No Fly List, adding it to the list of people banned from buying guns, gives such a person standing to challenge the law and his or her name being on the No Fly List.

No the voting seems to reflect a desire and a fear that this would give people standing to challenge the No Fly List. Thus why and who offered it and why it was voted down.

davidpdx

(22,000 posts)
9. I'm not sure, but I'd hope not
Thu Jul 18, 2013, 04:39 AM
Jul 2013

If they are found not guilty then they can be given their gun back (or be allowed to buy a gun in the future). If they are guilty chances are they are going to use the gun in which case bringing back the dead person isn't possible.

 

Maedhros

(10,007 posts)
8. So the NSA can monitor the communications of an American citizen who talked to someone
Thu Jul 18, 2013, 02:39 AM
Jul 2013

who talked to someone who was suspected of being a Terrorist, but a gun dealer can SELL WEAPONS to that suspected Terrorist with no restriction? It's perfectly OK to disregard the 1st Amendment in the first case, but absolutely unacceptable to disregard the 2nd Amendment in the other case?

Congress - do you even know how to logic?

hack89

(39,171 posts)
20. This is the list that Ted Kennedy's name was placed on.
Thu Jul 18, 2013, 09:38 AM
Jul 2013

it is just a list of "suspicious" people that is secretly compiled with no transparency and no due process.

Sunlei

(22,651 posts)
28. Republicans have and want to continue to sell guns to anyone with cash.
Thu Jul 18, 2013, 10:25 AM
Jul 2013

Nothing but bloody handed, gunrunner war profiteers for the entire world.

NickB79

(19,233 posts)
31. Bush creates a BS terrorist no-fly list, and DU is up in arms
Thu Jul 18, 2013, 01:54 PM
Jul 2013

As they rightly should have been.

But when someone on our side tries to do the same thing, only subbing in guns instead of the right to travel freely, we have cheerleaders for it, despite still using the same BS "suspected terrorist" list.

Amazing.

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