House Republicans reject proposal to ban gun sales to suspected terrorists
Source: Raw Story
A proposal to ban the sale of firearms to individuals on the FBIs terrorist watch list was defeated by House Republicans on Wednesday.
Reps. Nita Lowey (D-NY) and David Price (D-NC) offered an amendment to the Commerce, Justice, Science (CJS) Appropriations bill that would have given the U.S. Department of Justice authority to block suspected terrorists from purchasing firearms and explosives.
Terrorists are knowingly exploiting our laws, Lowey said, citing American-born al Qaeda spokesman Adam Gadahn.
The amendment was defeated in the House Appropriations Committee by a 19-29 vote.
Read more: http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/07/17/house-republicans-rejected-bill-to-ban-gun-sales-to-suspected-terrorists/
a2liberal
(1,524 posts)why, even if you support gun control, background checks, etc., it is ok to block someone from owning a gun because they're on some agency's "suspected" list, with no trial/conviction? That (well, the existence of those lists in general) offends my due process sensibilities so much more than any 2nd amendment concerns
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)warrant46
(2,205 posts)Heard this before
crim son
(27,464 posts)to read our emails and follow our phone conversations.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)guns. Of course, if Gadahn were in the US he'd be in jail and thus not allowed to buy a gun anyways.
krispos42
(49,445 posts)...and a person arrested for and charged with a felony.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)be able to buy firearms?
krispos42
(49,445 posts)As long as the justice system is unable to bring felony charges against somebody, he or she should be able to do a whole host of things, including vote, speak, pray, own guns, get an abortion, and have privacy against unreasonable searches and seizures.
If you can lose a constitutional right simply because you get put on a list by an executive-agency bureaucrat (i.e., without due process) then why not more of them? I can image the Republicans eagerly jumping on the bandwagon that a woman on the terrorist watch list can't get an abortion.
Once the justice system can file felony charges against you, then I can see things changing.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)for questioning?
Ex-cons and those convicted of domestic abuse aren't deprived of the right to an abortion, so the analogy is silly.
krispos42
(49,445 posts)People routinely get stopped from flying at the airport because they find out they (or, also commonly, that somebody with a similar name) is on the terrorist watch list.
There aren't follow-up arrests or anything like that. You're just... on a list. No more flying for you, citizen.
Convicted felons can't vote, can they? At least in most states. Even after they are done serving time. Nor can they own guns. So the idea of a convicted felon permanently losing rights is already established
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Actually, they can and do vote in the vast majority of states.
http://felonvoting.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=286
Note that in Louisiana it's easier for convicted felons to buy a gun than to vote.
krispos42
(49,445 posts)And for ¾ of them, getting out of prison doesn't get them the right to vote either. There are still a lot of rights removed (by due process) while a convicted person is out on parole and/or probation
So we've established that rights can be abridged even after their jail term is ended. ¼ of states have laws that a felony conviction permanently removes your right to vote unless you appeal it and your appeal is approved.
Convicted felons also can't own guns again, ever. I think that's federal law, and on the ATF form 4473 (application for a federal background check).
I have no problem with people charged by a court of law with terrorism being unable to fly, or being barred from buying or possessing guns.
I have a problem with that happening by executive fiat.
hack89
(39,171 posts)think about that for a second.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)hack89
(39,171 posts)to be one one means you have to be on the other.
hack89
(39,171 posts)it is just a list of "suspicious" people that is secretly compiled with no transparency and no due process.
Remember that Ted Kennedy was on it?
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)hack89
(39,171 posts)if you are on one you are on the other.
Kolesar
(31,182 posts)Even barbers have to go through background checks to do what they want to do in my state. The public should control who buys any firearm in America.
krispos42
(49,445 posts)Background checks are not a problem.
But rights are not subject to majority whims.
Kolesar
(31,182 posts)It truly jumps around.
krispos42
(49,445 posts)"is not" is the legal reality of the situation.
How's that?
happyslug
(14,779 posts)You have to understand, if you are on the list, you may not know it till you try to fly. If you do not know if your name is on the list, the people who control the list can not be compelled to show if your name is on the list till it causes you some sort of harm. What harm do you incur if your name in on the list and you never fly? The answer is none and thus no grounds to file an action to get your name off the list.
Thus it takes a denial of the right to fly to give you a cause of action. The problem is if you are denied to right to fly, did you have other options and if you did you have the legal duty to minimize your lost by taking that option. If you do not, again you have no cause of action for you did not minimize your lost. On domestic flights you have the option of driving.
Now, if you are denied and file in court, the court can dismiss the action due to the problem being moot. You were denied a flight, the flight has flown, thus you can NOT get on that flight and any thus the action is moot. If you claim you are worried about it is the future, the court could rule they will rule on that whenever it occurs and you get in front of them BEFORE the flight flys. i.e. every time you try to fly, by the time you get to court, the ability to fly on that flight is gone and thus the action is moot (now the courts MAY work around this, for example in Roe vs Wade the Court ruled the Plaintiff had standing even through she had given birth to the child she technically wanted to abort, previous efforts to get an abortion issue in front of the US Supreme Court had failed on mootness grounds,. i.e. the mother gave birth thus her right to an abortion was moot).
I see Courts adopting the same policy as to flights, the ban is on US flights, internal US Flights you have the option to fly or take the train (Length of travel is NOT an issue), on oversea flights that involves treaties and the US can deny anyone on those flights for any reason so if you are denied because you are the list, the courts will say the list, as applied to overseas flights, is governed by treaty and nothing they can do.
Firearms is a different area. If you are denied you can then file an action in court on why you are on the list, and the court would have to rule on that issue. As long as you want to buy the weapon in dispute, the case is NOT moot. Thus you could force whoever controls the list to defend why your name is on the list and the court will have to rule on that issue, can not avoid making the decision on the grounds the issue is moot.
I suspect this is why it was proposed by two Democrats, it would permit someone to challenge they name on the list and the demand can not become moot due to the weapon being sold to a third party. I also suspect that is why it was defeated by the GOP majority in the house. The GOP does NOT want a court case that can rule the no fly list is unconstitutional. Remember the Proposition 8 ruling by the US Supreme Court was NOT that it violated the 14th Amendment but that since the California Attorney General or the Governor was NOT defending the law, no one else had standing to do so. The same with the No Fly List, adding it to the list of people banned from buying guns, gives such a person standing to challenge the law and his or her name being on the No Fly List.
No the voting seems to reflect a desire and a fear that this would give people standing to challenge the No Fly List. Thus why and who offered it and why it was voted down.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)davidpdx
(22,000 posts)If they are found not guilty then they can be given their gun back (or be allowed to buy a gun in the future). If they are guilty chances are they are going to use the gun in which case bringing back the dead person isn't possible.
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)who talked to someone who was suspected of being a Terrorist, but a gun dealer can SELL WEAPONS to that suspected Terrorist with no restriction? It's perfectly OK to disregard the 1st Amendment in the first case, but absolutely unacceptable to disregard the 2nd Amendment in the other case?
Congress - do you even know how to logic?
hack89
(39,171 posts)it is just a list of "suspicious" people that is secretly compiled with no transparency and no due process.
Berlum
(7,044 posts)and hate America?
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)Nothing but bloody handed, gunrunner war profiteers for the entire world.
City Lights
(25,171 posts)Thanks, fools, for finally admitting it!
NickB79
(19,233 posts)As they rightly should have been.
But when someone on our side tries to do the same thing, only subbing in guns instead of the right to travel freely, we have cheerleaders for it, despite still using the same BS "suspected terrorist" list.
Amazing.