Comedienne Sarah Silverman’s sister arrested at Western Wall in Jerusalem for wearing male prayer sh
Source: Independent
Comedienne Sarah Silvermans sister arrested at Western Wall in Jerusalem for wearing male prayer shawl
Alistair Dawber
Monday 11 February 2013
The sister of comedian Sarah Silverman was arrested at Jerusalems Western Wall today for wearing a male prayer shawl during an attempt by women to pray at Judaisms holiest site.
Rabbi Susan Silverman a member of the liberal Reform movement - and her daughter Hallel, were detained by police for wearing a blue and white tallitot, a shawl reserved only for orthodox men. Rabbi Silverman belongs to Women of the Wall a group that visits the site each month wearing traditionally male religious garb. Yesterday as many as 300 people gathered at the Western Wall in Jerusalems Old City, to protest at the orthodox control of the site.
The issue of women praying at the Western Wall is fraught. Only a small section of the ancient site is reserved for women, with the rest given over to male worship. Before last months general election, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said that he would consider ways of making the situation more equitable, despite a 2003 Supreme Court decision that upheld the divide.
~snip~
The police confirmed that the arrests of 10 women were connected to the wearing of male style tallitot. The monthly prayer sessions are usually highly charged, and often there are arrests.
Read more: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/comedienne-sarah-silvermans-sister-arrested-at-western-wall-in-jerusalem-for-wearing-male-prayer-shawl-8490591.html
CBGLuthier
(12,723 posts)All MEN are made equal. Women, not so much...
Disgusting old world values.
ForgoTheConsequence
(4,846 posts)Israel is a secular, liberal, progressive paradise. To say different any different could get you in trouble.
Ikonoklast
(23,973 posts)He had a small congregation that met close to one of the Orthodox enclaves, mostly ex-pats like himself.
He would routinely find human feces smeared on the door handles of his synogogue because they didn't recognize him as either a rabbi or even a 'real' Jew.
He left after three years.
DesertRat
(27,995 posts)R Merm
(405 posts)In order to form a government too much power is given to the ultra Orthodox parties.
SkyDaddy7
(6,045 posts)Freddie Stubbs
(29,853 posts)louis-t
(23,199 posts)It makes my head hurt.
Voice for Peace
(13,141 posts)sakabatou
(42,083 posts)warrant46
(2,205 posts)tomm2thumbs
(13,297 posts)Sounds like they are proving the adolescent nature of their religious views
(no insult intended towards adolescents...)
maxsolomon
(32,992 posts)Do you not understand that we are special to God, who is, after all, also a man?
No Girls Allowed!
of a post-monotheist, obviously.
Brickbat
(19,339 posts)I could be wrong.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)Brickbat
(19,339 posts)Scairp
(2,749 posts)For stating the blatantly obvious. This stupid wall isn't holy, it isn't sacred, it's just a bunch of really old bricks. And this is just another way to try and keep women second class citizens by calling this a "holy" sight and restricting woman, who ought to be smarter than the men and know this is all bullshit. It's the same principle as when you could often find public bars or clubs for men only earlier in the 20th century. Augusta only just admitted women to that club last year. Shameful. Remember when the Oak Room Bar was for men only? Well, neither do I but I heard about it. Israel thinks it can be both a country about one particular religion governed in a secular way and that just doesn't work.
Mosby
(16,168 posts)Some secular countries with a state religion (not a complete list):
Israel
England
Ireland
India
Denmark
Iceland
Finland
Argentina
El Salvador
Cyprus
Costa Rica
Greece
Norway
Monico
Malta
Peru
Honduras
GliderGuider
(21,088 posts)This is an issue that is very dear to My heart!
Well, this and your sex life of course.
...I saw that...
snooper2
(30,151 posts)After a bit we'll take them around getting a tour of the planet and they see the "wall" with humans standing there mumbling, kissing it, LOL..
Alien- "those your people? WTF are they doing " "Is that a magic wall or something?"
Purveyor
(29,876 posts)relayerbob
(6,510 posts)they haven't already been here and decided we were too primitive to speak to. Figure if we survive oursleves, maybe they'll come by again in another 100 years or so.
snooper2
(30,151 posts)To just turn around and go back LOL
RedstDem
(1,239 posts)every religion can pretty much share this one thing, sexism........
Wind Dancer
(3,618 posts)meti57b
(3,584 posts)At our synagogue, women routinely chant the torah (from the torah scroll) to the congregation while wearing talisim with the four fringes.
What you are describing as "sexism" is realistically the Orthodox.
Mosby
(16,168 posts)SCVDem
(5,103 posts)Who gave the ultra-orthodox the keys to the kingdom?
Xithras
(16,191 posts)Same ideology, enforced with a slightly gentler hand
ZombieHorde
(29,047 posts)The Straight Story
(48,121 posts)leftynyc
(26,060 posts)This is the same thing as throwing acid in the face of girls who want to get educated? Same thing as women being forced to stay in their homes unless a male relative is with them? Forced into a marriage at age 14? Can you really say that with a straight fucking face and expect to be taken seriously?
Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)It's just another example of man's basic inhumanity to his fellow man. No one country, culture or religon has got a lock on it. Humanity is good at being foul to one another.
Visit sunny Palestine where even the food is rationed (1500 calories a day -if they are lucky! Yum!) for it's prisoners..I mean happy populace.
Mosby
(16,168 posts)Last edited Mon Feb 11, 2013, 11:38 PM - Edit history (1)
Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza eat whatever they want.
Food exports from Gaza and the West Bank are at an all time high.
What's your agenda katashi?
Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)You don't remember:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/feb/01/gaza-food-crisis
davidpdx
(22,000 posts)I don't think "denial" is in Egypt anymore
Ash_F
(5,861 posts)"Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza eat whatever they want."
^Get educated.
Part of being a progressive and a Democrat is combating right wing nuttery wherever it rears its head. Good on Rabbi Silverman.
Mosby
(16,168 posts)See the angle now is that Israel is forcing the Gazans to buy Israeli goods.
http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2013/02/israeli-goods-flood-gaza.html
Ash_F
(5,861 posts)But don't spout denialist right wing lies regarding human rights on a Democratic board and expect not to get called out on it every single time.
cheers
Iggo
(47,489 posts)surrealAmerican
(11,340 posts)That can't be right. Reform Jews wear these too.
... or is that only at the Wall? ... and if so who made that rule, and when?
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)The Independent is doing their regular bang up job of screwing up a simple story. And it's not a small section that is reserved for women - it's 1/2 and 1/2. People should line their kitty litter with that paper.
R Merm
(405 posts)leftynyc
(26,060 posts)I was there myself around 15 years ago and it looked NOTHING like that. Not only that, a bunch of us went over to the mens side and prayed over there. Nobody bothered us and, yes, I'm a woman.
R Merm
(405 posts)Over the years the orthodox have gone more to the right. There is no way today that you would have been able to go over to the mens side. This story is part of an ongoing push by the woman of the wall. They do this once a month and have had issues before. It was great to see the vets from the 67 war prevent their arrest while they were praying, hopefully this will force some changes.
obamanut2012
(25,911 posts)She was grabbed and shoved and called horrible names, as was her brother who was with her. Because she was female. Doing this to people PRAYING. To a woman so excited to finally visit Israel.
All religious Fundamentalists sicken me.
Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #68)
Mosby This message was self-deleted by its author.
klook
(12,134 posts)Still from Life of Brian, Monty Python (1975)
groundloop
(11,488 posts)Raise your hand if you remember the days of segregated bathrooms...... I was only like 5 or 6 but I still remember that I didn't understand why white people and black people had to use different restrooms in a public place. Well, I'm a little bit older now and, like then, I don't understand why women and men can't pray in the same place.
relayerbob
(6,510 posts)RebelOne
(30,947 posts)Separate restrooms and drinking fountains for blacks and whites, and blacks having to sit in the back of the bus.
madrchsod
(58,162 posts)i was 11 when we went through the south down to new orleans. beautiful scenery marred by the signs of segregation and all black shacks just down the road from the all white towns. up here in the north whites let them live in the towns but only in certain areas. the one in my town was named "chocalot square"
RoccoR5955
(12,471 posts)For being "anti-Semitic."
DesertRat
(27,995 posts)maybe everyone's too busy trashing the Pope to notice.
davidpdx
(22,000 posts)several times by those who disagree. The irony of the topic is kind of funny when you see people screaming and threatening people for posting things.
TwilightGardener
(46,416 posts)Damn wimmens, always ruining everything with their wimmin-ness.
libodem
(19,288 posts)Isn't one of the familiar prayers, one that the men say, thanking God, for not making them a woman? Suppose that little benefit gives them the patriarchal leg up, so to speak.
obama2terms
(563 posts)One of the many reasons why I am so turned off by former religion.
libodem
(19,288 posts)Worth of, Public Broadcasting Station, stories of both Palestinians and Ultra Orthodox, gay Jews.
I came away more informed. God I love PBS. And I have cultural respect for the history and traditions of Judaism.
I hope I make that clear, despite my personal rejection of many religious doctrines.
I didn't know that the tradition of having meat animals slain in a ritual of religious rights and blessings, were similar to both people. I
Mosby
(16,168 posts)The other 90% of worldwide Jewry have modified the Birchot Hashachar prayer to make it inclusive and egalitarian.
Xipe Totec
(43,872 posts)Judi Lynn
(160,218 posts)Sarah Silverman's sister among 10 detained in Jerusalem
Women stopped at the Western Wall because they were wearing garb reserved for men only, according to reports
Associated Press
The Guardian, Monday 11 February 2013 14.41 EST
Israeli police detained 10 women, including the sister of the American comic Sarah Silverman, as they tried to pray at a Jerusalem holy site, the head of a liberal Jewish women's group said.
Anat Hoffman, who was among those detained, said the women were stopped because they were wearing religious garb that Orthodox Judaism reserves for men only. The incident occurred at the Western Wall, one of Judaism's holiest sites.
Silverman's sister Susan, a Jerusalem rabbi from the liberal Reform stream of Judaism, was detained along with her teenage daughter.
Sarah Silverman wrote on her Facebook page that she was "SO proud" of her sister and niece for their "civil disobedience". The original post included more explicit language typical of Silverman's humour.
More:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/feb/11/sarah-silverman-sister-jerusalem-western-wall
R Merm
(405 posts)cactusfractal
(491 posts)Ironic that a story on gender equality labels the sister of a protester for same with a gender-diminutive title. Comedienne is no better than stewardess and only a hair better than "lady doctor".
Well, at least they didn't call her a Jewess, too.
Cal Carpenter
(4,959 posts)Hadn't even noticed. Thanks for pointing this out.
Cary
(11,746 posts)It is a different country with different traditions and different realities. In this instance it has to deal with a part of its population that is fundamentalist and quite militant.
I would side with Rabbi Silverman, being a Reform Jew myself. However I would suggest that those who are getting bent out of shape are really interjecting themselves into a debate that they don't fully understand or appreciate.
Wind Dancer
(3,618 posts)This is a perfect example of men treating women as inferiors. It's universal in the monolithic religions.
Cary
(11,746 posts)Are you going sit here and tell me that you understand the relationship between Orthodox Jews and Reform Jews in Israel? If so, I have a hard time believing that to be true.
They need to work it out and they don't really need outsiders.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)The Abramahic religions of this world can go and have all the internecine fighting they please, but when it comes to an issue of sexism, whether it be FGM, Sharia, or this current crop o'bullshit from my husband's people, they don't get to "work it out" without the spotlight on them.
And when religious leaders use the civil authorities to enforce their beliefs, you'd better believe I'm not going to let them "work it out." You know why? Because historically, when we women let the men "work it out" we are the ones who get the shaft.
I don't have to know the relationship between two sects to know that using the civil authorities to enforce your religious prerogatives to the detriment of women is wrong.
Cary
(11,746 posts)And feel free to lash out at me as much as you want. I'm a citizen of the U.S.A. and unless you're a citizen with rights to vote in Israel your righteous indignation directed at me will do you as good as directing it at anyone or anything else.
Whether you like it or not it is a matter for Israelis to work out and your declaration that you're free from obligation to understand the real meaning of the conflict is unconvincing. The Orthodox Jews in Israel murdered Yitzhak Rabin. They actually throw stones at people who violate their fundamentalist vision of the Sabbath. The issue here isn't just a matter of sexism. It is fundamentalism versus secularism and that debate is probably meaningless to you. To them, it's something different.
Israel is a secular state. I don't know this but I'm pretty sure that the rules at the Wailing Wall are some kind of compromise with the Orthodox Jews in Israel. You don't know that either but you're very ready to get yourself all riled up about it.
It's their country. Not yours.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)with the sect that murdered Yitzhak Rabin (according to you.)
marybourg
(12,540 posts)eastern European socialists and modeled on the socialist ideals of cooperative farms (kibbutzim) and equality (women in the army). Of course reality does not always live up to the ideal. Trouble started when orthodox Jews, many actually from th U.S., started immigrating to Israel and demanding the perks that their supposed exalted status as "more holy than thou" demanded. Couple that with the parliamentary need to form alliances, as another poster has noted, and you get a system where much of the moral authority is ceded to those who claim it as their "birthright", a very fraught concept in Israel.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)She eventually went to Cyprus. What she described to me did not sound like a secular state.
marybourg
(12,540 posts)Cary
(11,746 posts)It would be a much a better opinion, though, if it were based on some objective analysis.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Here, the state of Israel has decided to violate the human rights of women because it has delegated its authority on such matters to a backwards sect/cult.
Cary
(11,746 posts)You have weighed all of the facts and circumstances and you're a fair, unbiased observer.
Right. How you doing on selling those bridges?
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Cary
(11,746 posts)I think you could read a lot into it.
Cal Carpenter
(4,959 posts)Israel needs to deal with the HALF OF ITS POPULATION THAT IS NOT MALE.
Human rights are human rights. If a nation chooses to be a religious nation, and that religion (or some faction thereof) tramples on human rights based on gender, then it sure as fuck better expect criticism and ANYONE who believes in human rights and gender equality should look at this critically.
Your relativism (re: "tradition" etc) is anti-human rights. It is anti-gender-equality. Different realities? What? A reality where it is not okay to criticize state-sanctioned sexism? Where human rights have some other meaning?
If those fighting for human rights around the world backed down everytime someone asked them to be forgiving of those who are sexist/racist based on 'tradition' where would we be now?
Fuck that shit. Fuck apologizing for a state that is condoning sexism.
Cary
(11,746 posts)I am not "anti-human rights" and you have a lot of nerve making that ad hominem.
obama2terms
(563 posts)I am personally an atheist as well as my mom but the rest of my family are reform jews. They go to an orthodox synagogue because it's closer to our house and to be honest this doesn't surprise me. Orthodox Judaism is very repressive towards women, they have to cover their heads, wear long skirts, sit separate from men during services, not even touch a boy until marriage etc. It's shameful to me even if it's just a part of Judaism, it turned me off enough to make me just have no religion at all.
libodem
(19,288 posts)My mission is to be well informed. And I'm so glad you are open to discussion. I like hearing personal, points of view. Thank you. I've been starved for understanding.
Manifestor_of_Light
(21,046 posts)Not Cool Story Bro: I once attended a Classical Reform temple.
I didn't know there was such a thing as "Classical Reform".
No beanies, no prayer shawls, nearly all the service was in English. It was founded by German Jews in the 1800s with the idea that those items were mere trappings and not part of the spirituality.
The rabbi was cool. He wanted us (husbo & I) to convert. We wanted to convert, but the rich people on the board didn't want us b/c we were unemployed at the time. They also said "We've never had a COUPLE that wants to convert." Like they couldn't wrap their minds around that concept.
We offered to donate 40 hours of our time working in lieu of annual dues, and we have three college degrees EACH, but that wasn't good enough. We met at a Unitarian Church.
We didn't want to join a shul where the board didn't want us. I've been to snotty churches and synagogues before. So we're still Unitarians, and live far away from any UU churches.
I have people in my face constantly telling me how Gawd answers prayers, etc. etc., ya gotta have faith, studying the flaws in the Bible is bad(I did that at a liberal Christian college where 6 hours of religion were required to graduate) and how global warming is wrong because "God's takin' care of our world."
I've even been told I'm going to hell for "worshiping Buddha". I set the hick straight about "worshiping Buddha" b/c he had recto-cranial conjunction.
Cary
(11,746 posts)The pillar of the Reform synagogue that my family attended when I was a child turned out to be a corrupt judge. And too the place was incredibly cliquish.
It's unfortunate that these organizations have to cater to the money people. If that's the kind of synagogue you were contemplating, consider yourself lucky.
Was it Emerson who said that all organizations are corrupt because the organization itself takes on a fictional importance beyond the individuals? I find that to be generally true.
PasadenaTrudy
(3,998 posts)Utter nonsense. #atheist
ZombieHorde
(29,047 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)And numerous Israeli men and women stood in solidarity with her and her compatriots.
Hopefully this arrest will raise the profile of the Women of the Wall group. Kudos to them for their efforts.
R Merm
(405 posts)Count on next months group to be much larger. This happened in 2012 also and the following month there was a lager group of Woman.
marshall
(6,661 posts)Though I do recall that Michael Jackson was able to wear a burka in Bahrain and was not arrested.