'In God We Trust' is a go

[duhneece]

Source: Alamogordo Daily News

"Alamogordo will move ahead with a plan to display the words "In God We Trust" inside city hall, following in the footsteps of Artesia and several hundred other United States municipalities and counties...

Galea, who sponsored the resolution, granted two fifteen minute-long periods for citizens to speak in favor of or against the resolution.

Several citizens spoke out against the measure and gave varying reasons including the notion that passing it would be against the inclusive spirit of the United States, which is officially a secular nation.

Others cited the questionable constitutionality of making commissioners vote on the measure, because doing so amounted to a "religious test" in the words of Rosemarie Ferrara."

Read more: http://www.alamogordonews.com/ci_22352800/god-we-trust-is-go?source=most_viewed

---

My city. We've had a book burning, formerly best known as the site of the atomic bomb test...not pleased.

[and-justice-for-all]

1. Constitawhat? nt

[SamKnause]

2. God

How can I trust something I do not believe exists ?

"Separation of Church and State" should be strictly enforced !!!!

[duhneece]

4. Should be, should be

Sad.

[SharonAnn]

11. "In God we trust" is so last millenium!

[Tempest]

30. It should have gone away with McCarthy from which it spawned. n/t

[24601]

65. Separation of Church and State is not in the Constitution. Not establishing a religion or

prohibiting the free exercise thereof is.

So precisely what religion would it establish?

And if it is merely a reference to a religion already established, how could it be the establishing action.

[duhneece]

70. I wish I knew the answer to your question

You're right, the Constitution does not prohibit supporting or pushing a 'God' religion.

[Bandit]

73. When they put "God" in public building they establish religion

God = religion.. You establish it by representing it in official buildings. If someone wants to put God in and around any Private building they are more than welcome to do so.. However the Government should not be doing so...

[duhneece]

74. I absolutely agree with you

I'm trying to find the link between what you & I know to be right and the legal language of our Constitution.

[W T F]

3. Why should a tax paying Atheist have to have his money taken away from him and......

Have it used to promote a religion that he doesn't subscribe to?

[duhneece]

5. Shouldn't have to

But will,now.

[Ezlivin]

23. You live to serve this ship.

Row well and live.

That was the reply of the ship's captain to Ben Hur as he sat at the ship's oars. We as atheists are on the same goddamned boat.

[marshall]

42. Then Hobby Lobby et al should start paying for abortions

Turnabout's fair play, as they say.

[Tempest]

6. That shit's been put into the city council chambers in my town.

Here in Bakersfield.

And on some buildings owned by the city.

[Adsos Letter]

7. I cross-posted your OP to the Religion group.

[duhneece]

13. Thanks.

It crosses several lines. Religion. Government. Constitution. Inclusiveness vs Exclusiveness.

[Lars39]

8. I'd mess with 'em, start an "I love Thor" campaign.

[duhneece]

14. That would be fun! nt

[Proletariatprincess]

9. It is not just that it is unconstitutional,

which it is, but that it makes the whole community look stupid and in the future the residents will be ashamed of the foolishness of it all. It will not stand forever. Times are changing and the mention of god in a civic forum will be unthinkable like it is in England and most of Europe.

[duhneece]

15. I know. I wish some company that planned to come here would change

its mind due to this backwards, excluding 'motto.' And I don't like that I am thinking that way.

[Mosby]

22. "in God we trust"

is on every American coin and bill.

is that also unconstitutional in your opinion?

[kestrel91316]

29. It was the VOTE on the measure that constituted an illegal RELIGIOUS TEST.

Last edited Sat Jan 12, 2013, 06:59 PM - Edit history (1)

What part of "There shall be no religious test" are you having trouble understanding?

[Mosby]

33. I'm trying to understand the issue here

The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.

So if the city council members voted against the motto they would be thrown off the council?

Look, I really don't care one way or the other, I'm more concerned about the overt christian sentiment in the US and the fact that I can't buy beer at 8am on sunday.

[kestrel91316]

37. The vote required the council members to publicly disclose their religious views.

You know damned well what the issue is.

Go back in your closet and pray.

[Nye Bevan]

62. Really?

It's not possible to simultaneously be a Christian and oppose putting up the motto?

[duhneece]

68. I strive to heal the sick, feed the poor

welcome the stranger, visit those in prison...in other words, I strive to be like Jesus, so that makes me a Christian from my point of view and I opposed the motto vocally and publicly.

[Ter]

76. Come on, all he did was ask if In God We Trust is also unconstitutional on currency

You're picking a fight for no reason.

[duhneece]

78. I was replying to Nye

He asked if it was possible to be a Christian and oppose the motto on the city logo...it is, I am. It is, I did.
It didn't feel like either one of us was picking a fight.

[duhneece]

67. No, not thrown off the council

Just reduces their chance of re-election.

[Tempest]

31. Do you know why it's there?

It originates from a not so good place from our past.

[Mosby]

34. something to do with communism?

[Tempest]

35. "Have you no sense of decency, sir? At long last, have you left no sense of decency?"

[Proletariatprincess]

40. Yes it is.

E Pluribis Unim (I hope I spelled that right.. ) was originally on all coins and bills. Made better sense too. A lot of us don't trust god or gods or anything supernatural. The Constitution tried to address that issue but it never has been settled and the fight over that meaning still goes on.

[duhneece]

44. Yes nt

[Kali]

51. yes

[SCVDem]

10. What's this 'WE' shit?

We all don't trust in some version of an invisible sky being.

Time to grow up now!

[duhneece]

16. I know. It is so excluding, so divisive

besides being irrational.

[Socal31]

12. "We are officially a secular nation."

Yea, and the Groom Lake range doesn't "officially" exist, either.


Unfortunately there is a sky-fairy litmus test for holding the majority of political positions in this country. The only thing that varies between the two major parties is the degree that they allow (or publicly admit they allow) their understanding of their God's message to influence policy decisions.

I don't want to go on a religion rant so I will just stop with this:


A very under-the-radar, obscure person once said:

"You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one"

[duhneece]

17. "And the world will live as one."

The way we live our life will reveal our faith. Do we care for the poor, do we heal the sick, do we welcome the stranger?

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

18. Whew, it's only a city hall. From your title, ...

... I thought "In God We Trust" was going to be on the new Trillion Dollar coin.

[duhneece]

19. I"m pretty sure that's next nt

[Hugin]

20. Proving once again, "Idiocracy" is more than a movie.

In some places it's a way of life.

[TygrBright]

21. This clears the way for Alamogordo's atheists and Constitutionalists to file that lawsuit. n/t

[duhneece]

26. I'll pass your suggestion on. nt

[duhneece]

41. My friend, Rosemarie, contacted ACLU & AU

Rosemarie said, "I contacted the ACLU the other day. I have to file online. I will be doing so. The more successful actions have been taken against prayer in public meetings and the AU has been successful with that, not the motto, stuff. Here's the take from the Americans United for Separation of Church and State:

Thank you for the suggestion. The reason that the courts have upheld “In God We Trust” is because they say that the phrase itself is not religious. They say that it has been used in a purely secular, patriotic context for so long that it has been stripped of its religious meaning. Now you (like me) may not find this to be a particularly persuasive argument, but it is the prevailing legal view. And, unfortunately, that means that we can’t really attack “In God We Trust” as a “religious test” because the counterargument is that it is not religious---and the courts agree, unless there is some other indication that it is meant to be religious (for example, if they also included a picture of Jesus, or the cross)---and so cannot possibly constitute a religious test.

Best,

Ian Smith

_______________________________________________

Ian Smith

Staff Attorney

Americans United for Separation of Church and State

1301 K Street, NW

Suite 850, East Tower

Washington, D.C. 20005

[phone] ext. 244

[email protected]"

I don't know what will happen to the Commissioners who didn't vote for it-one, who was appointed when another commissioner quit, is the head of the Democratic Party of our county.

[immoderate]

52. I oppose the motto because it has no discernible meaning...

Apparently they approve it for the same reason.

--imm

[forestpath]

24. Why are "Christians" so aggressive about this shit?

[duhneece]

25. Most Sundays, you find me in the African Methodist Episcopal church

And I don't have a clue. It seems mean-spirited, divisive, exclusive and stands opposed to church-state separation. It bugs the shit outta me.

[FiveGoodMen]

81. "See, Daddy? I really, really, really love you (more than these other guys!)"

"I say 'Jesus' more; I hate gays more; I'm really, really on your side!!!

Even if heaven's pretty full, and all, you've got room for your very, very BEST believer!

Right?"

</Fundy>

[duhneece]

82. You sound angry. I don't define myself as Christian based on my belief

I try to do what Jesus said to do in Matthew 25 and by example: feed the poor (I'm a member of our local hunger coalition & vote for help in feeding those who need it), heal the sick (I support healthcare for all & vote that way), welcome the immigrant (work with local rights group Somos Un Pueblo Unido), and visit those in prison (through our non-profit Peace and Justice of La Luz http://pajoll.org) and fight for justice for GLBT, through our local production of The Vagina Monologue and the play of our local stories, In Our Own Voices.

Poor you, sounding so mean. Lighten up, man.

[FiveGoodMen]

83. My response was not to your post

Someone asked why Christians are so intense about this; I gave my answer; I stand by it.

Now, I know that not all Christians fit my uncharitable characterization, but the ones who keep pushing all these bad policies -- that Jesus would not have supported, based on his statements -- DO fit, in my opinion.

Angry? Sure. I'll bet you're angry with the people I was describing as well.

[duhneece]

84. Then I have to agree with you

You are right-I was angry and HAD to start this post for just the reasons you express. I've channeled my anger into something more positive: we're having a rally commemorating the 40 yr anniversary of Roe v Wade, when the US said 'We Trust Women' and (poor & middle class) women quit dying in illegal, unsafe abortions.

I completely understand where you're coming from.

[FiveGoodMen]

85. I'm glad

I certainly wasn't pointing any criticism your way.

I also wasn't just venting.

I really think that a competition for the approval of an angry, punishing father figure (which is many people's perception of God) is what drives the constantly-ratcheting-up extremism that we see in fundamentalist versions of faith.

[duhneece]

88. I couldn't agree more

I'm sorry I misunderstood who you were responding to, initially. I really think we see things similarly, which was my frustration with the city's action and my need to 'vent' by sharing on DU.

[kestrel91316]

27. The vote itself was an unconstitutional religious test.

[Fresh_Start]

28. if truth in advertising applied

it would say in God we trust when its convenient to pretend so...but you aren't going to find him in this building.

[Ken Burch]

32. Since this is Alamagordo, will the phrase be written in glow-in-the-dark-paint?

You'd pretty much HAVE to trust God to stay in Alamagordo after that, y'know.

[duhneece]

36. Good one!

Maybe THAT'S the link I'm missing-'cause that would make some sense, at least-

[daleo]

38. Does God include Allah?

Or the demiurge?

[raptor_rider]

39. Yes

In God We Trust!! She is magnigisift, right!!! Sitting here in my own living room, naked as a jay bird, reading your shit. Free as can be!!! Yes, she is a beautiful god!!!

[MH1]

43. There's going to be a lot of feelings of betrayed trust

when the effects of what the human race is doing to the planet (God's Creation, you know?) come crashing down on all of us.

[Blandocyte]

45. Where is it going? eom

[Bigmack]

46. The local taxpayers should be irate...

They are going to have to pay the legal fees to fight the suits that will undoubtedly come out of this.

They will lose. This issue is moot.

The commissioners who voted for this shit should be removed for malfeasance.... same with school board members who incur the legal fees for prayer in school cases.

[primavera]

47. Wow, 2 whole 15 minute comment opportunities?

Administrative law typically requires considerably greater opportunity for public comment on proposed legislation.

[Fathergregory]

48. I thought that science had already proven in the existence of a creator?

Scientist have come to the conclusion that we got here not by some primordial goo but by a very specific and ordered number of events. Even the location of earth in the system had to have been ordered for us to have an atmosphere. The idea of atheism was debunked years ago as just another road to follow for those that were somewhat lost and easily influenced by cult like organization. Our whole western civilization was built by and founded on the largest organization on the planet. Maybe you read about it or heard about it's founder?

[arcane1]

49. Science has done no such thing n/t

[Kali]

50. ...

The idea of atheism was debunked years ago as just another road to follow for those that were somewhat lost and easily influenced by cult like organization.

replace atheism with religion in that sentence and think about how that makes you feel

[immoderate]

53. Science never "proves" anything. So you're wrong out of the gate.

Assuming the highest motives on your part, I'll just inform you that you are mistaken about what science is for and what it can do.

--imm

[NRaleighLiberal]

56. science reports that there are 100 billion - yes, billion - planets in our galaxy.

And there are billions of galaxies. That translates into unfathomable numbers of planets in the universe. A belief that Earth is the only planet out of those countless billion billions with ideal conditions, or the development forms, is beyond egotistical.

Science will never prove a creator, because religion is based upon faith. No matter what you believe, it will always be up to each of us to decide.

[Bradical79]

59. Sounds more like you've lost your freakin' mind.

None of that has happened.

[FiveGoodMen]

64. Religionists are always saying that.

And they're always lying when they do.

[HughBeaumont]

66. .

[Arugula Latte]

71. Yeeeeeah NO.

Wanting Santa to be real and Santa actually being real are two very different things.

[NYC Liberal]

89. Lolz. You "thought" wrong. Very wrong.

Even the location of earth in the system had to have been ordered for us to have an atmosphere

No. It just so happened that it did. If Earth had been somewhere else, then it wouldn't have an atmosphere and we wouldn't be here.

Scientist have come to the conclusion that we got here not by some primordial goo but by a very specific and ordered number of events.

You confuse "specific and ordered number of events" with "creation by a being with specific intentions".

Yes there were a number of events that led to the state of the universe as it is today. That does not imply or necessitate intention or "design".

[Peregrine]

54. It is decided jurisprudence

Officially, "In God We Trust" a deistic statement, not favoring any religion. I know, I know.

In court the religious right has had to defend it as deistic, coming from a cold, uncaring god. I actually enjoy when they have to dechristianize things. So when somebody brings up the motto, just remind them that even the conservative Supreme Court ruled that the god mentioned is not the christian, jewish, or moslem god.

As long as it is not a god of some cult, it doesn't violate the Establishment Clause (so says the honorable SC). So just make sure you correct people when they do make a connection. This god is the god of Voltare's, just a clock maker.

[duhneece]

55. Interesting perspective

I'll pass it along to my friend who is mounting a complaint-probably on the beginning invocation...not sure, but your share is fascinating. Thanks!

[kenichol]

87. Who is God - and why?

Posting as one who fervently believes that "God" is a metaphor for everything in the universe that human beings don't and can't possibly understand, "In God We Trust" can also be seen as a statement that excludes everybody who doesn't buy into that particular slogan. By insisting on this slogan, The Mayor, who otherwise appears to be a competent person, has, managed to make visible the existing tension between the Alamogordo believers and the not so much. "In God We Trust" may have divided the community.

[yurbud]

57. these days I'm surprised they didn't sell religioning rights like they do naming rights

So it would most likely end up "In L Ron Hubbard we trust."

[duhneece]

60. Or, from a poster 'upstream', In Thor We Trust nt

[yurbud]

63. I saw that. But I would make the Thorists pay--or at least make a hefty campaign contribution

[duhneece]

69. Well, yeah. nt

[Ken Burch]

58. Any chance they'll use "All Others Pay Cash" as a sub-title?

[duhneece]

61. That would only be fair! nt

[grantcart]

72. Well just for fun you should send a letter to the editor compaining about the

ambiguity.

Tell them that God is generic and its not clear which God they are supporting.

Tell them that they should make it explicit by using "Yahweh".

Then the next day "Jehovah" (a mistransliteration of the German).

Then you could step up with YHWH (the actual tetragram in the old Testament),

Following up the next day you could advise that you just realized that God has two names in the Old Testament and as YHWH isn't actually spelled out that we should go with Elohim.

Then you could say that you caught a lot of shit and the following day say that the sign should include both YHWH and Elohim in order to not offend anyone.

The next day you could go back and say that yesterday's proposal was confusing and a lot of people thought that you were talking about 2 different Gods so a consensus had developed to go with YHWH but to write the sign in Hebrew.

That should get the pot going. . .

[duhneece]

75. Our local paper is not publishing any of my ltte's

Our only means of expressing ourselves, besides seeking legal help:

http://www.topix.net/forum/city/alamogordo-nm/TDMP6BVNKGGR6OMDO

or respond to the city:

http://ci.alamogordo.nm.us/Government/coaphonedir.htm

Respond if you'd like!

[LarryNM]

77. Southeast New Mexico aka Little Texas

Sadly, an increasingly end of the line backwater. Don't know if you consider Alamogordo in that area, some do some don't, unlike Roshell.

[duhneece]

80. Yes, this is muchly Little Texas

Plus the bonus of a military base and many military retirees, who should know better.

[MrYikes]

79. It's all about the midi-chlorians, it's all about the midi-chlorians. nt