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catsudon

(864 posts)
Tue Dec 12, 2023, 12:39 PM Dec 2023

'I am a Zionist,' says Biden at Hanukkah event, promises continued military assistance to Israel

Source: timesofisrael

US President Joe Biden is hosting a White House reception tonight to mark Hanukkah, celebrating the festival of lights as he has continued to denounce rising antisemitism in the US and abroad amid the Israel-Hamas war.

Read more: https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/biden-were-there-no-israel-there-wouldnt-be-a-jew-in-the-world-who-is-safe/



Very proud for my president for stating this.

All his statement means is Israel should exist as a Jewish state. This is as outlandish statement as Saudi Arabia or Iran or Pakistan should exist. Nobody seems to question the right of Muslim/Arab states to exist, yet a Jewish state is controversial.
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'I am a Zionist,' says Biden at Hanukkah event, promises continued military assistance to Israel (Original Post) catsudon Dec 2023 OP
Well, He Just Lost the Muslim Vote Deep State Witch Dec 2023 #1
It certainly seems like Biden could have affirmed his support for Israel without using such a provocative phrase. NT Midwestern Democrat Dec 2023 #15
Support for Israel IS Zionism yardwork Dec 2023 #34
He shouldn't have used a term that is subject to widespread interpretation LeftInTX Dec 2023 #35
Um, no. We can only dumb down the country so far. yardwork Dec 2023 #36
Let's teach it in school then. I never learned it in school LeftInTX Dec 2023 #40
I know, right? Same here. yardwork Dec 2023 #44
Is it more or less provocative sarisataka Dec 2023 #41
He already had it lost Bixtas Dec 2023 #53
Stop it Joe. Read the damn room, and not just the one you are in. Autumn Dec 2023 #2
FYI Hieronymus Phact Dec 2023 #7
And what does saying "Palestine has every right to be a state" make me? Autumn Dec 2023 #12
it makes you a supporter of a Palestinean state. Hieronymus Phact Dec 2023 #14
The poster is correct. You just affirmed a commitment to Zionism. yardwork Dec 2023 #28
The issue is what to do about the non-Jewish people there IronLionZion Dec 2023 #3
The non-Jewish people where? OilemFirchen Dec 2023 #5
Only if you exclude Gaza, West Bank, and right of return for other Palestinians IronLionZion Dec 2023 #13
Gaza and the West Bank are not part of Israel. OilemFirchen Dec 2023 #19
Jordan has taken in millions of refugees and given most of them full Jordanian citizenship IronLionZion Dec 2023 #24
HAD taken them in. HAD given them citizenship. OilemFirchen Dec 2023 #29
You are absolutely right they aren't part of Israel, which is why the Israeli settlements in the West Bank are illegal prodigitalson Dec 2023 #25
Not sure of your point, but I agree. (n/t) OilemFirchen Dec 2023 #26
ok...glad to hear it. prodigitalson Dec 2023 #27
Israel wants the land in the West Bank IronLionZion Dec 2023 #61
The nation members of the UN moniss Dec 2023 #17
As above, why is the onus on Israel? OilemFirchen Dec 2023 #21
See MAGA reaction to immigration IronLionZion Dec 2023 #31
You've already got very large refugee camps that moniss Dec 2023 #59
I am glad he said it so clearly sarisataka Dec 2023 #4
The obstacle to a two state solution is Netanyahu. He has kept Hamas in power to make sure Autumn Dec 2023 #6
Apologies for not mentioning Netanyahu sarisataka Dec 2023 #9
The difference being, of course, that removing Netanyahu can be done via democratic processes... AnrothElf Dec 2023 #16
Depends on what average is. Autumn Dec 2023 #18
So if that's accurate, and only 20% of Gazans support Hamas... AnrothElf Dec 2023 #50
Do the Palestinians get to decide if they want to hold elections? Hint: Autumn Dec 2023 #51
Correct. Because they don't have a democracy. AnrothElf Dec 2023 #55
I will only read your headline. So you knew the answer to the question you asked me? Autumn Dec 2023 #57
Yeah... it's called a "rhetorical question". AnrothElf Dec 2023 #58
not crazy talk... agingdem Dec 2023 #23
Palestinians have been rejecting peace offers since before Bibi was born. Mosby Dec 2023 #39
That doesn't change the fact Netanyahu kept Hamas in power because a two state Autumn Dec 2023 #42
No he didn't. Mosby Dec 2023 #46
Yes he did. He nor Hamas wanted a two state solution. He openly admitted that. Autumn Dec 2023 #47
Ok Mosby Dec 2023 #48
It was an intelligence failure. Perhaps along the lines of the August 6, 2001 PDF. Autumn Dec 2023 #49
No question there was an intelligence failure... AnrothElf Dec 2023 #52
Reject whatever you want, you're free to do so. I do not support what Israel is doing. Autumn Dec 2023 #54
Point stands. You wanna ceasefire? Gotta get Hamas to cease firing. AnrothElf Dec 2023 #56
What's the context? Bixtas Dec 2023 #8
Context: TheProle Dec 2023 #10
I wonder if Pres. Biden got his inspiration from Pres. Kennedy? Sal_NV Dec 2023 #11
A really dumb thing to say. Lordy! HUAJIAO Dec 2023 #20
Israel is our ally. Zionism means a commitment to Israel's existence. yardwork Dec 2023 #30
I've heard people Delphinus Dec 2023 #32
I don't know. yardwork Dec 2023 #33
John Hagee LeftInTX Dec 2023 #37
I posted a thread on Zionism here a few minutes ago. yardwork Dec 2023 #38
Here is an article from Wikipedia about Christian Zionism LeftInTX Dec 2023 #43
Oh, the End Timers!! yardwork Dec 2023 #45
I am so glad that President Biden is our POTUS LetMyPeopleVote Dec 2023 #22
Me too. Behind the Aegis Dec 2023 #60
15. It certainly seems like Biden could have affirmed his support for Israel without using such a provocative phrase. NT
Tue Dec 12, 2023, 01:33 PM
Dec 2023

yardwork

(62,555 posts)
34. Support for Israel IS Zionism
Tue Dec 12, 2023, 03:42 PM
Dec 2023

They are one and the same.

There appears to be widespread misunderstanding of the term Zionism.

yardwork

(62,555 posts)
36. Um, no. We can only dumb down the country so far.
Tue Dec 12, 2023, 04:07 PM
Dec 2023

If a bunch of people decide that the color "blue" means red, the president is not at fault if he says the sky is blue.

Zionism means support for Israel's existence. People who've allowed TikTok to convince them otherwise need to look up the term instead of asking everybody else to change.

LeftInTX

(27,708 posts)
40. Let's teach it in school then. I never learned it in school
Tue Dec 12, 2023, 04:13 PM
Dec 2023

Well, I barely learned anything about the Middle East in school.
I learned about the creation of Israel at the end of WWII by the UN and that is all I learned about the Middle East. Other wise, nada, zip. Place basically didn't exist...

Except we did learn about Egypt and Hammurabi's code in ancient history of Western Civ, but I don't think that counts.

Autumn

(45,519 posts)
2. Stop it Joe. Read the damn room, and not just the one you are in.
Tue Dec 12, 2023, 12:45 PM
Dec 2023

Israel has every right to exist. As does Palestine.

Autumn

(45,519 posts)
12. And what does saying "Palestine has every right to be a state" make me?
Tue Dec 12, 2023, 01:21 PM
Dec 2023

I'm confused. I've been called anti-Semitic and a Hamas supporter for saying that. However the problem I have is Joe has lost Michigan. That was clear this weekend. He loses in 2024 my country is fucked six ways to Sunday.

Hieronymus Phact

(450 posts)
14. it makes you a supporter of a Palestinean state.
Tue Dec 12, 2023, 01:32 PM
Dec 2023

It's not incompatible with Zionism in any way. Unless you think that Palestinian state should replace Israel and not live next to it.

yardwork

(62,555 posts)
28. The poster is correct. You just affirmed a commitment to Zionism.
Tue Dec 12, 2023, 03:18 PM
Dec 2023

"Israel has every right to exist" = Zionism. Every Zionist I know also believes that Palestine has a right to exist.

It's like feminism. The right wing tries to cast feminism as a hatred of men, but feminists know that feminism means equal rights for everybody, men and women.

IronLionZion

(46,096 posts)
3. The issue is what to do about the non-Jewish people there
Tue Dec 12, 2023, 12:50 PM
Dec 2023

Palestinian people would like a chance at life and citizenship. Resolve that in a fair way and things should be more peaceful in the future.

OilemFirchen

(7,143 posts)
5. The non-Jewish people where?
Tue Dec 12, 2023, 01:13 PM
Dec 2023

IIRC, roughly 25% of Israel's population in non-Jewish, the majority of whom are Palestinian, including a sizable proportion who are citizens. Last I checked, I believe ten serve in the Knesset.

Happy to be corrected on this, if need be.

IronLionZion

(46,096 posts)
13. Only if you exclude Gaza, West Bank, and right of return for other Palestinians
Tue Dec 12, 2023, 01:26 PM
Dec 2023

millions of whom are in Jordan

OilemFirchen

(7,143 posts)
19. Gaza and the West Bank are not part of Israel.
Tue Dec 12, 2023, 01:55 PM
Dec 2023

BTW, Jordan - which would be more likely to have a "right of return" than Israel - is, at best, ambivalent about Palestinian emigres from the Occupied Territories. They are most, if not all, confined to a few refugee camps and denied citizenship.

Again, happy to be corrected if I am in error.

IronLionZion

(46,096 posts)
24. Jordan has taken in millions of refugees and given most of them full Jordanian citizenship
Tue Dec 12, 2023, 02:52 PM
Dec 2023

Queen Rania, Queen Alia, and Princess Firyal are Palestinian-Jordanians.

Living through Trump should be a reminder to all DUers the importance of citizenship and national identity in determining a person's options in life.

The Palestinian people in the area fled to Gaza and West Bank to escape wars back in the day and got stuck there when the wars ended. Those territories have changed hands a few times but Israel has held them since 1967 as occupied territories. The people there don't have Israeli citizenship unless they were born in Israeli territory before those wars. Gaza is by far one of the worst places in the world to be born. They have fewer opportunities than people who hold citizenship of any country. The Palestinian Authority passport can offer some limited travel options but it isn't citizenship.

OilemFirchen

(7,143 posts)
29. HAD taken them in. HAD given them citizenship.
Tue Dec 12, 2023, 03:19 PM
Dec 2023

It IS where the vast majority of refugees settled. It CONTINUES TO BE the home of most modern Palestinians' ancestors.

Jordan doesn't prohibit immigration. Why isn't Jordan allowing refugees NOW? What about THEIR natural "right of return"?

prodigitalson

(2,625 posts)
25. You are absolutely right they aren't part of Israel, which is why the Israeli settlements in the West Bank are illegal
Tue Dec 12, 2023, 02:59 PM
Dec 2023

IronLionZion

(46,096 posts)
61. Israel wants the land in the West Bank
Tue Dec 12, 2023, 06:14 PM
Dec 2023

which is why Netanyahu and similar RW politicians resist any 2 state solution. They don't want the people who live there, just the land.

moniss

(4,568 posts)
17. The nation members of the UN
Tue Dec 12, 2023, 01:39 PM
Dec 2023

need to find some way of a different approach to having the body be able to take more serious steps to keep to it's commitments to also resolve the issues of compensation and right of return. By always basically trying to dodge those issues for peace plan after conference after peace plan for 75 years it has left anybody the reasonable conclusion that when the UN/US etc. make promises that it's just words like grains of sand in the desert. If those promised items are no longer to be on the table then just say so.

But until then those who were promised that the homes, businesses and land that was given up would receive compensation have a right to expect the ones who set this in motion so many decades ago and control the situation to make good on their promise. It is long past time to just keep telling people "it will be done some day but just go sit in the refugee camp and we'll let you know." Generations have come and gone and still nothing on those items. It is useless for the purposes of peace to hold out those things and string people along. It is like hearing the words "2 state solution". What little is left now raises viability questions and that means a possibly shaky stability as well and that doesn't bode well for peace either.

The time for the UN to have really resolved this was back in the late '40's/early '50's with a more assertive approach but it didn't happen. Assertiveness towards all parties including the US and Arab state supporters was called for but sadly never happened.

OilemFirchen

(7,143 posts)
21. As above, why is the onus on Israel?
Tue Dec 12, 2023, 02:06 PM
Dec 2023

Why is Jordan, the logical destination for displaced Palestinians, not treated with the same disapprobation?

IronLionZion

(46,096 posts)
31. See MAGA reaction to immigration
Tue Dec 12, 2023, 03:27 PM
Dec 2023

since the USA is the logical destination for displaced people from south of the US border.

About half the people in Jordan are of Palestinian origin. They've taken more refugees than anyone else by millions.

moniss

(4,568 posts)
59. You've already got very large refugee camps that
Tue Dec 12, 2023, 05:31 PM
Dec 2023

have been there for many years and in Lebanon also. So it is incorrect to think they haven't taken in refugees and displaced people. As far as any onus Israel should have been told by the UN from the beginning that either an agreement was reached by a date certain or one would be imposed. The subjects of compensation and right of return that were promised to the Palestinians that they would be negotiated don't just go away because an Arab state starts lobbing shells etc. The entire sum of the territories and the outstanding issues are under the disposition of the UN and not Israel alone as it sees fit although they do behave that way. That is also something that should not be allowed but the UN was neutered by the US from the beginning of it's existence.

Actually the whole thing could have been handled in a more orderly fashion somewhat if the British hadn't just turned tail and ran. The Mandate could have been extended by agreement so that there was a more effective peacekeeping force in place. There would have been less rapid forced displacement and a more orderly process. As it was massive ethnic cleansing took place and people lost assets while others grabbed those assets. Plain and simple. Prior to 1948 it was understood there would be some displacement and compensation and right of return were promised. As soon as Independence was declared everybody who got the benefit threw the middle finger at the ones who were supposed to be compensated and have some right of return.

sarisataka

(19,663 posts)
4. I am glad he said it so clearly
Tue Dec 12, 2023, 01:08 PM
Dec 2023

As there are many who disagree with Israel's right to exist.

A permanent resolution will require a Palestinian state but Hamas is an insurmountable obstacle to a two state solution.

Autumn

(45,519 posts)
6. The obstacle to a two state solution is Netanyahu. He has kept Hamas in power to make sure
Tue Dec 12, 2023, 01:13 PM
Dec 2023

it didn't happen. So how are you going to get that two state solution that Trumps buddy and Hamas are both dead set against?

sarisataka

(19,663 posts)
9. Apologies for not mentioning Netanyahu
Tue Dec 12, 2023, 01:15 PM
Dec 2023

and Likud. They are also obstacles but I am hopeful they will soon be removed by Israelis at the next election.

 

AnrothElf

(923 posts)
16. The difference being, of course, that removing Netanyahu can be done via democratic processes...
Tue Dec 12, 2023, 01:35 PM
Dec 2023

Hamas cannot.

When will Gazans hold another election? Where are the anti-Hamas protests? Why, in the last 17 years of Hamas "rule", has no opposition party emerged to challenge their power in Gaza?

Why were non-Hamas Palestinians holding hostages for Hamas? And raping them?

Could it be because... and this might seem like a stretch to you... the average Gazan actually SUPPORTS Hamas?

Crazy talk, I know.

Autumn

(45,519 posts)
18. Depends on what average is.
Tue Dec 12, 2023, 01:45 PM
Dec 2023
Just 20 percent of respondents selected Hamas as their preferred party, slightly less than the proportion who favored Fatah (30 percent), the party that is led by Abbas and that governs the West Bank. Hamas's popularity in Gaza has slipped as well, falling from 34 percent support in the 2021 survey.

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/israel/what-palestinians-really-think-hamas#:~:text=Just%2027%20percent%20of%20respondents,support%20in%20the%202021%20survey.


But that number may go up with all the deaths from the bombing of civilian areas. Things like that seem to create more radicals.
 

AnrothElf

(923 posts)
50. So if that's accurate, and only 20% of Gazans support Hamas...
Tue Dec 12, 2023, 05:04 PM
Dec 2023

Then when will they be voted out of power?

When will Hamas hold an election so that they can be swept from power?

Crickets?

Then when will Gazans protest Hamas? When will we see international protests against Hamas? Thousands in the street protesting Hamas, instead of Israel and The Great Satan?

Again... I don't expect serious answers, because the answers are obvious.

 

AnrothElf

(923 posts)
55. Correct. Because they don't have a democracy.
Tue Dec 12, 2023, 05:16 PM
Dec 2023

They don't even have a government. They have a terrorist organization stealing their wealth and spending it on rockets to shoot at Israel, or just sending it out of Gaza to enrich their Islamofascist cronies.

Remember the huge uprising during the Arab Spring, when Palestinians in Gaza rioted against their Hamas overlords and the PA?

Yeah... me neither.

It's hard not to draw the conclusion that the average Gazan doesn't give a fuck about democracy, or having a stable government. It's hard not to draw the reasonable conclusion that the average Gazan wants to destroy Israel "from the river to the sea".

Does that mean Israel should kill all their women and children? No, obviously.

But those in the best position to overthrow Hamas are the "average Gazans", and... 17 years on... CRICKETS.

Autumn

(45,519 posts)
57. I will only read your headline. So you knew the answer to the question you asked me?
Tue Dec 12, 2023, 05:21 PM
Dec 2023
When will Hamas hold an election so that they can be swept from power?

Crickets?


There a word for that.
 

AnrothElf

(923 posts)
58. Yeah... it's called a "rhetorical question".
Tue Dec 12, 2023, 05:22 PM
Dec 2023

I'm sorry... Did you think I was asking for your "expertise"?

agingdem

(8,151 posts)
23. not crazy talk...
Tue Dec 12, 2023, 02:24 PM
Dec 2023

Gazans shelter Hamas/serve as human shields/allow Hamas to stockpile their cache of weapons of war in tunnels under schools, hospitals, and mosques/allow Hamas leadership to divert their humanitarian aid into Hamas pockets while they live in poverty...

Gazans cheered the barbaric massacre of beheaded babies, tortured and dismembered children/parents, raped and mutilated women, the elderly/disabled set on fire, slaughtered Israelis enjoying a music festival, children torn from their families and held captive...the Palestinians of Gaza enable Hamas, and in doing so they are not "victims", they are accomplices...

Thank you President Joe Biden!

Autumn

(45,519 posts)
42. That doesn't change the fact Netanyahu kept Hamas in power because a two state
Tue Dec 12, 2023, 04:17 PM
Dec 2023

solution was what neither he nor Hamas wanted. You will notice I included Hamas in my other post you responded to.

Mosby

(16,703 posts)
46. No he didn't.
Tue Dec 12, 2023, 04:41 PM
Dec 2023

Please don't post the article from Tal, it doesn't prove anything.

Eta yall should really think through this new narrative, because what Bibi did was let aid money into Gaza that Hamas mostly stole. Should he have starved out Hamas and Gazans?

Autumn

(45,519 posts)
49. It was an intelligence failure. Perhaps along the lines of the August 6, 2001 PDF.
Tue Dec 12, 2023, 05:02 PM
Dec 2023

In plain English, intelligence that was ignored. Take it any way you want it.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/israeli-officials-repeatedly-dismissed-warning-signs-before-hamas-attack-report-claims#:~:text=The%20attack%20was%20preceded%20by,but%20those%20warnings%20were%20dismissd.

The attack was preceded by one thing Hamas was known for, launching a barrage of rockets from Gaza into Israel. In the days that followed October 7, there were reports that low-level analysts had reported seeing Hamas agents rehearsing some parts of this attack, but those warnings were dismissed.

But according to a new report from The New York Times, Israeli intelligence had obtained more than a year ago a 40-page document detailing virtually the exact attack plan that Hamas executed on October 7.


 

AnrothElf

(923 posts)
52. No question there was an intelligence failure...
Tue Dec 12, 2023, 05:09 PM
Dec 2023

But it's still victim-blaming in a desperate bid for an anti-Israel narrative.

"Ralph's an asshole, and his doorbell camera was pointed the wrong way, and he didn't notice the gang-rapists dismantling the sliding glass door on his backdoor patio. Therefore it's Ralph's fault that his wife and children were raped in front of him, and then he was murdered and his wife was taken hostage, where she would continue to be raped for months."

See what I mean?

Not a good narrative. I reject it.

Autumn

(45,519 posts)
54. Reject whatever you want, you're free to do so. I do not support what Israel is doing.
Tue Dec 12, 2023, 05:14 PM
Dec 2023

And I will not support it. Killing innocent people and children in their attempt to kill Hamas is wrong. There must be a better way.

 

AnrothElf

(923 posts)
56. Point stands. You wanna ceasefire? Gotta get Hamas to cease firing.
Tue Dec 12, 2023, 05:20 PM
Dec 2023

A ceasefire is like a "cease-fuck". It doesn't work if only one side is saying "No!" At that point it's just a rape.

Much like Hamas did on Oct. 7.

TheProle

(2,520 posts)
10. Context:
Tue Dec 12, 2023, 01:16 PM
Dec 2023
"As I said after the [Oct.7] attack, my commitment to the safety of the Jewish people, and the security of Israel, its right to exist as an independent Jewish state, is unshakeable.

“Were there no Israel, there wouldn’t be a Jew in the world who is safe,” says the president, to loud applause.

“The warmth and connection I feel to the Jewish community is unquestionable.” Biden added that “I ran into trouble and criticism when I said a few years ago that you don’t have to be Jewish to be a Zionist, and I am a Zionist.”

yardwork

(62,555 posts)
30. Israel is our ally. Zionism means a commitment to Israel's existence.
Tue Dec 12, 2023, 03:21 PM
Dec 2023

A lot of people don't seem to understand the meaning of Zionism. It means a commitment to allowing Israel to exist.

Delphinus

(11,932 posts)
32. I've heard people
Tue Dec 12, 2023, 03:37 PM
Dec 2023

accused of being a Christian Zionist - what does that mean? That a Christian is all for Israel's existence? Or something totally different?

yardwork

(62,555 posts)
38. I posted a thread on Zionism here a few minutes ago.
Tue Dec 12, 2023, 04:10 PM
Dec 2023

The ADL notes that anybody can be a Zionist, as long as they acknowledge Israel's right to exist.

LeftInTX

(27,708 posts)
43. Here is an article from Wikipedia about Christian Zionism
Tue Dec 12, 2023, 04:18 PM
Dec 2023
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Zionism

Christian Zionism is an ideology that, in a Christian context, espouses the return of the Jewish people to the Holy Land. Likewise, it holds that the founding of the State of Israel in 1948 was in accordance with Bible prophecy: that the re-establishment of Jewish sovereignty in the Levant — the eschatological "Gathering of Israel" — is a prerequisite for the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.[1][2] The term began to be used in the mid-20th century, in place of Christian restorationism, as proponents of the ideology rallied behind Zionists in support of a Jewish national homeland.[3][4]
_______________


Anyway, Zionism is a term that is subject to interpretation.

yardwork

(62,555 posts)
45. Oh, the End Timers!!
Tue Dec 12, 2023, 04:21 PM
Dec 2023

The people who believe that Israel must be created, then destroyed, to fulfill the Second Coming of Christ.

This is what I've dubbed the evangelicals' "transactional" relationship with Israel.

Biden didn't say he was a " Christian Zionist."

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