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Tue Sep 12, 2023, 07:17 PM

Eight catastrophic floods in 11 days: What's behind intense rainfall around the world?

Source: NBC News

Scientists say climate change is likely having an impact on rainfall and flooding, but understanding precisely what that relationship is can be tricky.

Sept. 12, 2023, 5:03 PM EDT
By Denise Chow

The catastrophic flooding in Libya that has left as many as 10,000 people feared dead is just the latest in a string of intense rainfall events to hammer various parts of the globe over the past two weeks.

In the first 11 days of September, eight devastating flooding events have unfolded on four continents. Before Mediterranean storm Daniel sent floodwaters surging through eastern Libya, severe rains inundated parts of central Greece, northwestern Turkey, southern Brazil, central and coastal Spain, southern China, Hong Kong and the southwestern United States.

Seeing this many unrelated extreme weather events around the world in such a short period of time is unusual, said Andrew Hoell, a research meteorologist at the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration’s Physical Sciences Laboratory.



Read more: https://www.nbcnews.com/science/science-news/eight-catastrophic-floods-11-days-s-intense-rainfall-world-rcna104620

63 replies, 2485 views

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Reply Eight catastrophic floods in 11 days: What's behind intense rainfall around the world? (Original post)
OKIsItJustMe Sep 12 OP
kimbutgar Sep 12 #1
lapfog_1 Sep 12 #2
OKIsItJustMe Sep 12 #11
Attilatheblond Sep 13 #52
OKIsItJustMe Sep 13 #54
Attilatheblond Sep 13 #55
Ford_Prefect Sep 12 #17
lapfog_1 Sep 12 #19
OKIsItJustMe Sep 12 #22
lapfog_1 Sep 12 #24
OKIsItJustMe Sep 12 #27
lapfog_1 Sep 12 #30
OKIsItJustMe Sep 12 #23
WhiteTara Sep 12 #28
OKIsItJustMe Sep 12 #31
Ford_Prefect Sep 12 #32
BlueIn_W_Pa Sep 13 #44
lapfog_1 Sep 13 #46
Think. Again. Sep 12 #3
Elessar Zappa Sep 13 #51
Think. Again. Sep 13 #56
republianmushroom Sep 12 #4
COL Mustard Sep 12 #5
Rural_Progressive Sep 12 #6
bucolic_frolic Sep 12 #7
PoindexterOglethorpe Sep 12 #8
Delphinus Sep 12 #15
PoindexterOglethorpe Sep 12 #37
Delphinus Sep 12 #39
royable Sep 12 #9
OKIsItJustMe Sep 12 #13
PoindexterOglethorpe Sep 12 #38
Evolve Dammit Sep 12 #10
OKIsItJustMe Sep 12 #14
Evolve Dammit Sep 12 #18
OKIsItJustMe Sep 12 #20
Evolve Dammit Sep 13 #47
OKIsItJustMe Sep 13 #53
Evolve Dammit Sep 13 #61
Blues Heron Sep 12 #12
OKIsItJustMe Sep 12 #16
hatrack Sep 12 #21
OKIsItJustMe Sep 12 #26
lapfog_1 Sep 12 #29
OKIsItJustMe Sep 12 #41
hatrack Sep 13 #42
Evolve Dammit Sep 13 #48
Marthe48 Sep 12 #25
Evolve Dammit Sep 13 #49
Marthe48 Sep 13 #50
Evolve Dammit Sep 13 #63
Voltaire2 Sep 13 #58
Evolve Dammit Sep 13 #62
Ford_Prefect Sep 12 #33
progressoid Sep 12 #34
SCantiGOP Sep 12 #35
IcyPeas Sep 13 #60
WestMichRad Sep 12 #36
OKIsItJustMe Sep 12 #40
Magoo48 Sep 13 #43
BlueIn_W_Pa Sep 13 #45
Voltaire2 Sep 13 #57
Kennah Sep 13 #59

Response to OKIsItJustMe (Original post)

Tue Sep 12, 2023, 07:25 PM

1. It's scarily becoming like those disaster movies where the world is coming to the end.

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Response to OKIsItJustMe (Original post)

Tue Sep 12, 2023, 07:26 PM

2. all predicted by climate models for, what, 25 years

maybe longer.

Welcome to the Anthropocene... a lot of people are going to die. We have never had 8 billion people on this planet with the type of conditions that are going to be the new normal.

Feeding them all is going to be a challenge.

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Response to lapfog_1 (Reply #2)

Tue Sep 12, 2023, 08:33 PM

11. More than 40

Hansen et al. (1981): Climate impact of increasing atmospheric carbon dioxide
Climate models indicate that large re­gional climate variations will accompany global warming. Such shifting of climatic patterns has great practical significance, because the precipitation patterns deter­mine the locations of deserts, fertile ar­eas, and marginal lands. A major region­al change in the doubled CO₂ experiment with our three-dimensional model (6,8) was the creation of hot, dry conditions in much of the western two-thirds of the United States and Canada and in large parts of central Asia. The hot, dry summer of 1980 may be typical of the United States in the next century if the model results are correct. However, the model shows that many other places, especially coastal areas, are wetter with doubled CO₂.

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Response to OKIsItJustMe (Reply #11)

Wed Sep 13, 2023, 01:26 PM

52. Warmer air holds more moisture, so more big rain events in places with humidity.

Throw in the human tendency to ignore maintaining infrastructure like dams and .... surf's up in some inland areas.

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Response to Attilatheblond (Reply #52)

Wed Sep 13, 2023, 01:30 PM

54. And warmer air holds more moisture, so it can carry more over hot dry areas without dropping it

The wet get wetter, and the dry get drier.

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Response to OKIsItJustMe (Reply #54)

Wed Sep 13, 2023, 01:36 PM

55. Yep. Am in AZ and this year's monsoon was a non-soon

Hoping El Nino brings rain to the southwest this winter, but the old weather patters and models are not working so much these days.

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Response to lapfog_1 (Reply #2)

Tue Sep 12, 2023, 08:48 PM

17. Since the early 70's at least.

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Response to Ford_Prefect (Reply #17)

Tue Sep 12, 2023, 08:55 PM

19. I worked with all of the climate scientists in the 1990s

all of them. I stored ALL of the collected climate data for a decade.

I knew the models predicted this before I got to NASA.

I just didn't know how long before... so I made the safe conservative "prediction".

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Response to lapfog_1 (Reply #19)

Tue Sep 12, 2023, 09:02 PM

22. It goes back even further than that

The thing to understand about Hansen is that he started out looking at Venus, and then, one day, a lightbulb lit, and he said, “This could happen on Earth!” and his career took a rather radical turn.

Did you work with James Lovelock?

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Response to OKIsItJustMe (Reply #22)

Tue Sep 12, 2023, 09:16 PM

24. Don't remember Lovelock

Hansen... Jose Zero ( can't forget that name ), lots of others. I'm really bad with names.

I was the "rescue" architect of a NASA program called EOSDIS (Earth Observation System - Distributed Information System - NASA loves acronyms... well all the federal government loves acronyms). When I say rescue architect... the original Contractor (who I won't name) was waaay behind and over budget... to the point where the Director's office became involved... at the urging of the Vice President... some guy named Al Gore. I sat on the technical review committee... and proposed that we use a system that I had already designed and which my local team implemented... and the Goddard guys and the White Sands guys just redirected the data stream to my facility... and we stored PBs of Earth Science data ( back when a PB was actually a big deal ).

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Response to lapfog_1 (Reply #24)

Tue Sep 12, 2023, 09:20 PM

27. Ah! Yes! I remember EOSDIS!

NASA itself is an acronym, so…

James Lovelock may be best known for formulating the “Gaia Hypothesis” in a response to a request for him to develop a simple test for life that could be carried to Mars on the Viking probes.

He came up with his test, but realized it could be performed by remote sensing (i.e. no interplanetary probe required.)

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Response to OKIsItJustMe (Reply #27)

Tue Sep 12, 2023, 09:27 PM

30. well, I generated the first instance of it. I hope the user community found it useful.

The great thing about government acronyms... is that within the acronym there is often the first letter of another acronym.

ok, I remember that paper... didn't remember his name, no idea if I met him or not... probably not.

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Response to lapfog_1 (Reply #19)

Tue Sep 12, 2023, 09:16 PM

23. Wang et al. (1976): Greenhouse effects due to man-made perturbation of trace gases.

Wang et al. 1976
Wang, W.-C., Y.L. Yung, A.A. Lacis, T. Mo, and J.E. Hansen, 1976: Greenhouse effects due to man-made perturbation of trace gases. Science, 194, 685-690, doi:10.1126/science.194.4266.685.

Summary
Nitrous oxide, methane, ammonia, and a number of other trace constituents in the earth's atmosphere have infrared absorption bands in the spectral region 7 to 14 p,m and contribute to the atmospheric greenhouse effect. The concentrations of these trace gases may undergo substantial changes because of man’s activities. Extensive use of chemical fertilizers and combustion of fossil fuels may perturb the nitrogen cycle, leading to increases in atmospheric N₂O, and the same perturbing processes may increase the amounts of atmospheric CH₄ and NH₃. We use a one-dimensional radiative-convective model for the atmospheric thermal structure to compute the change in the surface temperature of the earth for large assumed increases in the trace gas concentrations; doubling the N₂O. CH₄, and NH₃ concentrations is found to cause additive increases in the surface temperature of 0.7°, 0.3°, and 0.1°K. respectively. These systematic effects on the earth’s radiation budget would have substantial climatic significance. It is therefore important that the abundances of these trace gases be accurately monitored to determine the actual trends of their concentrations.

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Response to lapfog_1 (Reply #2)

Tue Sep 12, 2023, 09:23 PM

28. Rachel Carson wrote Silent Spring in the 70's and

it's what spurred Earth Day.

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Response to WhiteTara (Reply #28)

Tue Sep 12, 2023, 09:34 PM

31. Well, that was part of the impetus for Earth Day (there were several.)

Silent Spring (1962) warns about the overuse of pesticides (like DDT.)

https://www.earthday.org/history/

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Response to WhiteTara (Reply #28)

Tue Sep 12, 2023, 09:51 PM

32. Silent Spring is an environmental science book by Rachel Carson. Published on September 27, 1962.

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Response to lapfog_1 (Reply #2)

Wed Sep 13, 2023, 10:06 AM

44. The only reason we have 8 billion people

 

is because of cheap, high energy density from oil. No oil and the "extra 6 billion" are going to have a hard time - and we have to cut oil consumption.

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Response to BlueIn_W_Pa (Reply #44)

Wed Sep 13, 2023, 10:18 AM

46. yup...

we basically eat oil.

We use it to plant, weed, and harvest the crops. We use it as fertilizer for those crops. It then transports the crop to food processors, and then to market, etc.

Possibly the largest single input to what we eat is oil.

And it gets even worse for most meat products that we eat.

I remember reading all about the Hubbert Peak Oil papers back almost 20 years ago now. He wasn't wrong... but failed to take into account technology... in this case Fracking. Fracking has allowed us to get much more of the oil locked in small pockets of rock deep underground, making old "depleted" oil wells producers again.

But Hubbert wasn't wrong, we will... eventually... run out of oil to extract.

Not to mention that we must stop burning oil or these now seemingly constant weather disaster will only get worse.

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Response to OKIsItJustMe (Original post)

Tue Sep 12, 2023, 07:26 PM

3. Ha!....

"Scientists say climate change is likely having an impact on rainfall and flooding, but understanding precisely what that relationship is can be tricky."


Talk about downplaying climate change!

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Response to Think. Again. (Reply #3)

Wed Sep 13, 2023, 01:21 PM

51. How?

The statement is true. The relationship is very complex.

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Response to Elessar Zappa (Reply #51)

Wed Sep 13, 2023, 01:49 PM

56. The statement minimizes so much in so few words...

"...Scientists say climate change is likely having an impact on rainfall and flooding ..."

LIKELY??

The vast majority of scientists say climate change is most definitely having an impact on rainfall and flooding.

"...but understanding precisely what that relationship is can be tricky."

TRICKY??

Earth's ecological systems are almost infinitely complex, tricky is certainly not a correctly descriptive word to use for the difficulties involved in tracing the multitude of interdependent relationships, reactions and influences taking place.

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Response to OKIsItJustMe (Original post)

Tue Sep 12, 2023, 07:44 PM

4. Mother nature is PO'ed.

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Response to OKIsItJustMe (Original post)

Tue Sep 12, 2023, 07:47 PM

5. All I'll say is that if...

I see some guy building a boat, I'm getting out of town!

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Response to OKIsItJustMe (Original post)

Tue Sep 12, 2023, 07:48 PM

6. Welcome to the new normal

"Seeing this many unrelated extreme weather events around the world in such a short period of time is unusual"

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Response to OKIsItJustMe (Original post)

Tue Sep 12, 2023, 07:58 PM

7. Warmer air holds more moisture

More rain. Silly headline.

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Response to OKIsItJustMe (Original post)

Tue Sep 12, 2023, 07:59 PM

8. Read The Heat Will Kill You First (Life and death on a scorched planet)

by Jeff Goodell.

It's even worse than you know.

He also wrote The Water Will Come, which is about rising sea levels. What he's learned since that book, which came out in 2017, is scary, to say the least.

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Response to PoindexterOglethorpe (Reply #8)

Tue Sep 12, 2023, 08:43 PM

15. Both

are important reads.

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Response to Delphinus (Reply #15)

Tue Sep 12, 2023, 10:25 PM

37. Yes, absolutely.

Also, The Fourth Turning is Here by Neil Howe. It basically says that we are in a crisis mode, a fourth turning as he describes it. It's difficult to describe the thesis in less than several hundred words, but basically our culture/society has been through a number of turnings starting at the end of the 15th century England. We are now in the most recent Fourth Turning, during which EVERYTHING changes.

Think about what's going on now. Climate change. Diseases, like Covid. Social changes like helping poor people. Or not helping them. Lots and lots of such things.

What Howe essentially says is, "Brace yourself. Things are going to become VERY different very soon."

I now have a context for a lot of what is happening these days.

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Response to PoindexterOglethorpe (Reply #37)

Tue Sep 12, 2023, 10:37 PM

39. Oh my ...

I will add that book to my list of things to read. I tell you, there are days I am glad I am old (and I've not even read the book yet!).

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Response to OKIsItJustMe (Original post)

Tue Sep 12, 2023, 08:01 PM

9. It could also have something to do with greater human population on the planet,

crowded into places that are more easily habitable, such as river valleys and flood plains.

Could also have to do with increasing fraction of the population living in terrible poverty.

If there's torrential rainfall in a place no one lives, or lives downstream from, we don't care so much.

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Response to royable (Reply #9)

Tue Sep 12, 2023, 08:36 PM

13. We've always settled by bodies of water

Rivers, streams, lakes, ponds, oceans…

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Response to royable (Reply #9)

Tue Sep 12, 2023, 10:28 PM

38. Clearly there are a whole lot more humans on this planet

than the planet can actually sustain.

I'm guessing that this planet can maintain no more than one billion people, and we crossed that threshold a long time ago.

Without a serious reduction in population, there's no hope.

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Response to OKIsItJustMe (Original post)

Tue Sep 12, 2023, 08:21 PM

10. The Pentagon (US Pentagon) declared "global warming"/ re-branded"climate change" to be the biggest

threat to the USA over 10 years ago. It's not improving with age. They were right (and incredibly) largely ignored.

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Response to Evolve Dammit (Reply #10)

Tue Sep 12, 2023, 08:42 PM

14. Would you believe twenty?

The Observer: Now the Pentagon tells Bush: climate change will destroy us
  • Secret report warns of rioting and nuclear war
  • Britain will be ‘Siberian’ in less than 20 years
  • Threat to the world is greater than terrorism
Mark Townsend and Paul Harris in New York
Sat 21 Feb 2004 20.33 EST

Climate change over the next 20 years could result in a global catastrophe costing millions of lives in wars and natural disasters..

A secret report, suppressed by US defence chiefs and obtained by The Observer, warns that major European cities will be sunk beneath rising seas as Britain is plunged into a ‘Siberian’ climate by 2020. Nuclear conflict, mega-droughts, famine and widespread rioting will erupt across the world.



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Response to OKIsItJustMe (Reply #14)

Tue Sep 12, 2023, 08:48 PM

18. Damn the time flies. Thank you for that. We are in a global crisis. Will we get our collective

S--- together?? I am not optimistic "we" will (meaning the "industrialized nations".)

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Response to Evolve Dammit (Reply #18)

Tue Sep 12, 2023, 08:58 PM

20. I'm aftraid the answer is "No."

The US can’t even get it together as a country!

If, by some miracle, we do get it together, and I hope that we do… I’m afraid we may be a little bit late for the wake (if you know what I mean…)

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Response to OKIsItJustMe (Reply #20)

Wed Sep 13, 2023, 01:04 PM

47. It seems a tipping point has been crossed already. "Unprecedented" events almost daily

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Response to Evolve Dammit (Reply #47)

Wed Sep 13, 2023, 01:26 PM

53. My point exactly

I’m afraid multiple tipping points may have been crossed, naturally, like dominoes, one may have quickly led to another etc.

They are not independent.



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Response to OKIsItJustMe (Reply #53)

Wed Sep 13, 2023, 07:50 PM

61. great info. Thanks

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Response to OKIsItJustMe (Original post)

Tue Sep 12, 2023, 08:35 PM

12. higher temps - more evaporation, also more capacity to hold onto the water

and transport it. All that extra heat is doing a lot of heavy lifting.

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Response to Blues Heron (Reply #12)

Tue Sep 12, 2023, 08:44 PM

16. And when it decides to let go of it, there's a lot more to drop

In addition, that water vapor has mass. The air is heavier, has more momentum, more energy to dissipate…

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Response to OKIsItJustMe (Original post)

Tue Sep 12, 2023, 09:01 PM

21. Physics

.

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Response to hatrack (Reply #21)

Tue Sep 12, 2023, 09:18 PM

26. There you go, blaming physics again!

What did physics ever do to you

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Response to OKIsItJustMe (Reply #26)

Tue Sep 12, 2023, 09:23 PM

29. Damn those pesky laws of physics...

hey, I know, we will just pass NEW laws... yeah, that's the ticket!



I remember I story I heard of in college where some town in Missouri (maybe) decided the the value of Pi should be exactly 3.141 so they passed a law that made it so.

Possibly in the Journal of Irreproducible Results?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journal_of_Irreproducible_Results#:~:text=The%20Journal%20of%20Irreproducible%20Results,magazine%20about%20science%2C%20for%20scientists.

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Response to lapfog_1 (Reply #29)

Tue Sep 12, 2023, 11:46 PM

41. For most practical purposes, 3.14 is sufficient

22/7 or √10 will get you more than close enough for the back of an envelope.

Maybe they got tired of engineers doing a calculation like 5 × 3.14159265 (“You realize that you’ve only got one “significant digit” in that calculation. Right?”)

I say if they want to use 3.141, let ’em.

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Response to OKIsItJustMe (Reply #26)

Wed Sep 13, 2023, 07:55 AM

42. It's been holding me down my WHOLE LIFE!!!!

I HATE that!!

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Response to hatrack (Reply #42)

Wed Sep 13, 2023, 01:05 PM

48. Ha!

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Response to OKIsItJustMe (Original post)

Tue Sep 12, 2023, 09:17 PM

25. Going out with a gurgle or a bang

Just a toss-up if putin will launch before the water rises to drown us.

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Response to Marthe48 (Reply #25)

Wed Sep 13, 2023, 01:06 PM

49. or a nuke from a RNK sub???

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Response to Evolve Dammit (Reply #49)

Wed Sep 13, 2023, 01:09 PM

50. That too

I'd prefer Mother Nature be the cause. Nuke or Nature won't be pretty, but at least natural causes won't pollute Earth for eons and eons.

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Response to Marthe48 (Reply #50)

Wed Sep 13, 2023, 08:04 PM

63. Agreed. It's just incredibly sad that we don't have the international will to stop it. Either way.

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Response to Evolve Dammit (Reply #49)

Wed Sep 13, 2023, 03:12 PM

58. It's DPRK and they don't have enough nukes to do it.

That property belongs only to Russia and the USA. Both nations retain catastrophic level nuclear arsenals.

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Response to Voltaire2 (Reply #58)

Wed Sep 13, 2023, 08:02 PM

62. It doesn't take many to create massive casualties and complete havoc, with WW implications.

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Response to OKIsItJustMe (Original post)

Tue Sep 12, 2023, 09:59 PM

33. Mid-nineteenth century scientific experiments predicted the effects of increased Co2...

https://daily.jstor.org/how-19th-century-scientists-predicted-global-warming/

But the road to understanding climate change stretches back to the tweed-clad middle years of the 19th century—when Victorian-era scientists conducted the first experiments proving that runaway CO2 could, one day, cook the planet.

In other words, “global warming was officially discovered more than 100 years ago.”

* * *

Early climate research grew out of the astonishing ferment of science in that century. Scientists were formulating the basis of our modern understanding of thermodynamics, and its connection to chemistry and molecular physics. One was Joseph Fourier, a French mathematician and physicist who spent his career pondering the mechanics and equations governing heat transfer. He was intrigued by a puzzle: Why was the Earth as warm as it was? When he estimated how much energy from the sun hit our planet, he figured the Earth ought to be colder than it is.

The answer, he proposed, must be the atmosphere: It was somehow preventing heat from escaping. In an 1824 paper, he hypothesized that gases in the atmosphere must create barriers that acted to trap heat. Fourier didn’t yet know what molecular mechanisms were trapping the heat. But in an 1837 paper for The American Journal of Science and Arts, he surmised that over a long period of time, the amount of heat held in by the atmosphere could change — altered by both the Earth’s natural evolution and human activity. “The establishment and progress of human society, and the action of natural powers, may, in extensive regions, produce remarkable changes in the state of the surface, the distribution of the waters, and the great movements of the air,” he predicted. “Such effects, in the course of some centuries, must produce variations in the mean temperature for such places.”


Eunice Newton Foote identified and predicted how the atmosphere would change as CO2 increased.

John Tyndall intrigued by the question of what caused the ice ages did a series of experiments to identify the likely atmospheric culprits.

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Response to OKIsItJustMe (Original post)

Tue Sep 12, 2023, 10:06 PM

34. Nope. I heard Mark Levin say it's a hoax.

Who are you going to believe, scientists or a second rate AM radio host?

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Response to progressoid (Reply #34)

Tue Sep 12, 2023, 10:17 PM

35. Well, there's your answer

The abnormal weather is all being caused by the Climate Hoax.

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Response to progressoid (Reply #34)

Wed Sep 13, 2023, 04:17 PM

60. According to the internet he has 2 homes....

One in Jupiter, Florida, so if that one becomes submerged... no problem... he can move to his other house. See, this is why we should all own multiple houses.

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Response to OKIsItJustMe (Original post)

Tue Sep 12, 2023, 10:19 PM

36. Flooding in Japan

I was thinking it had just happened, but it was in July. They also had bad floods in ‘21 and ‘22. Yikes!

Not to make light of all the catastrophic flooding, but Portugal had a different sort of flooding: storage tank rupture caused streets in a Portugal town to be flooded with red wine:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/sep/13/levira-portugal-wine-flood-how-damage-litres-destilaria

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Response to WestMichRad (Reply #36)

Tue Sep 12, 2023, 11:36 PM

40. Close to 20 years ago we had a flood

A “climate skeptic” co-worker asked me after that if I was really serious about that “Climate Change” business, and if I thought we would see another flood like that one. He was looking to buy a nice cabin by the river, and the owners told him that it had flooded, but it was a “500 year flood” and it had never flooded before.

I said, “Well, yeah, that was a ‘500 year flood,’ but I read in the paper that the year before that, we had a ‘250 year flood’ and the year before that we had a ‘100 year flood.’ Do you know what the odds against a string like that happening at random are?” He said, “it’s been a while…” I said, “Invert and multiply.” He thought a moment, whistled appreciatively, and said, “That’s a pretty big number!” I said, “Yeah… something’s changing…”

He retired, and bought the cabin anyway. A few years later, I heard from another co-worker that it had flooded in the most recent flood… “Isn’t that terrible‽” he asked, and I agreed, “Sure is!”

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Response to OKIsItJustMe (Original post)

Wed Sep 13, 2023, 09:59 AM

43. Climate Catastrophe, politicians can't and won't respond adequately. 4 billion Gretas might work.

Generally, the first world will not be inconvenienced.

Now is the time to begin teaching adaptive engineering and speculative survival concepts in all schools and universities K-thru…..Make these courses of study free at every institution of higher learning from now on.

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Response to Magoo48 (Reply #43)

Wed Sep 13, 2023, 10:11 AM

45. Totally agree with you

 

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Response to OKIsItJustMe (Original post)

Wed Sep 13, 2023, 03:10 PM

57. Abnormal is now normal.

We have entered the find out stage of the climate catastrophe. It just gets worse until we either get serious about a sustainable global economy, or die off in such vast numbers that we stop making it worse that way.

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Response to OKIsItJustMe (Original post)

Wed Sep 13, 2023, 03:12 PM

59. FAFO

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