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Fri Sep 17, 2021, 04:05 PM

France recalls its ambassador to the US in protest of Biden's submarine deal with Australia

Source: NY Times

France announced on Friday that it is immediately recalling its ambassador to the United States, Philippe tienne, in protest of President Biden's announcement of an agreement to provide nuclear-powered submarines to Australia without consulting French officials.

In a statement, the French foreign minister said the decision was made by French President Emmanuel Macron.

"At the request of the President of the Republic, I have decided to immediately recall our two ambassadors to the United States and Australia to Paris for consultations," Jean-Yves Le Drian, the foreign minister said. "This exceptional decision is justified by the exceptional gravity of the announcements made on 15 September by Australia and the United States.

In the statement announcing that the ambassador, Philippe tienne, would return temporarily to Paris -- a severe diplomatic step that is usually used against adversaries -- Mr. Le Drian made it clear that his country sees the actions of the two nations as a serious breach of trust. He said the U.S.-Australia partnership constitutes "unacceptable behavior between allies and partners, the consequences of which affect the very conception we have of our alliances, our partnerships and the importance of the Indo-Pacific for Europe.Ē

Read more: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/17/us/politics/france-ambassador-recall-us-australia.html

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Reply France recalls its ambassador to the US in protest of Biden's submarine deal with Australia (Original post)
BeyondGeography Sep 17 OP
bucolic_frolic Sep 17 #1
Anon-C Sep 17 #2
BeyondGeography Sep 17 #3
Anon-C Sep 17 #22
sinkingfeeling Sep 17 #4
cstanleytech Sep 17 #5
LanternWaste Sep 17 #18
Lonestarblue Sep 18 #30
cstanleytech Sep 17 #6
Calista241 Sep 17 #7
Demsrule86 Sep 18 #25
Calista241 Sep 18 #31
nycbos Sep 17 #8
BeyondGeography Sep 17 #9
nycbos Sep 17 #10
BeyondGeography Sep 17 #11
nycbos Sep 17 #12
BeyondGeography Sep 17 #16
nycbos Sep 17 #13
Moebym Sep 17 #15
orangecrush Sep 19 #36
Prospero1 Sep 17 #14
Red Mountain Sep 17 #17
Demsrule86 Sep 18 #26
Red Mountain Sep 17 #19
Demsrule86 Sep 18 #27
Jedi Guy Sep 17 #20
Moebym Sep 17 #21
Demsrule86 Sep 18 #28
EX500rider Sep 18 #32
Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin Sep 17 #23
OldBaldy1701E Sep 18 #29
Smackdown2019 Sep 17 #24
The Unmitigated Gall Sep 19 #33
Snackshack Sep 19 #34
orangecrush Sep 19 #35
ck4829 Sep 20 #37
artemisia1 Sep 20 #38
Sapient Donkey Sep 20 #39

Response to BeyondGeography (Original post)

Fri Sep 17, 2021, 04:23 PM

1. Shocked

overreaction? I think so.

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Response to BeyondGeography (Original post)

Fri Sep 17, 2021, 04:24 PM

2. C'est dommage.

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Response to Anon-C (Reply #2)

Fri Sep 17, 2021, 04:25 PM

3. Yes, when you run on restoring alliances and your oldest ally recalls its ambassador

cíest bien dommage.

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Response to BeyondGeography (Reply #3)

Fri Sep 17, 2021, 08:11 PM

22. Well perhaps the point is well taken across our alliances.

And with new governments incoming.

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Response to BeyondGeography (Original post)

Fri Sep 17, 2021, 04:42 PM

4. Whoa! They sure aren't happy. This is a sad turn of affairs.

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Response to BeyondGeography (Original post)

Fri Sep 17, 2021, 05:01 PM

5. If the US was giving them nuclear missiles I could understand but they are not doing that so imo its

a gross over reaction.

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Response to cstanleytech (Reply #5)

Fri Sep 17, 2021, 06:17 PM

18. Precisely how is it an overreaction?

 

Specifically how does recalling an ambassador for consultation rise to the level of a gross over-reaction, and on what objective measure is that assertion based on?

Or is just some random gut-feeling?

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Response to cstanleytech (Reply #5)

Sat Sep 18, 2021, 08:15 AM

30. France lost a multimillion contract to supply Australia with submarines over this.

Of course, theyíre angry. And, at least according to the news Iíve read, they were not even given the courtesy due an ally of a heads-up that this deal was coming. Not a good way to keep your allies.

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Response to BeyondGeography (Original post)


Response to BeyondGeography (Original post)

Fri Sep 17, 2021, 05:18 PM

7. This is a BFD.

Hope it turns out okay.

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Response to Calista241 (Reply #7)

Sat Sep 18, 2021, 04:32 AM

25. No it is not. We dont owe France jobs that could come here. Too bad.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #25)

Sat Sep 18, 2021, 11:00 AM

31. A European ally has withdrawn their ambassador. That never happened under Trump.

I don't think it's happened under any President. It's a big fucking deal that it's happened.

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Response to BeyondGeography (Original post)

Fri Sep 17, 2021, 05:31 PM

8. Why did the French have so many civil wars?

So they could win a war occasionally.

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Response to nycbos (Reply #8)

Fri Sep 17, 2021, 05:33 PM

9. Cute...can I get some freedom fries with that?

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Response to BeyondGeography (Reply #9)

Fri Sep 17, 2021, 05:36 PM

10. You could think freedom fries are stupid...

... and The Frogs a temper tantrum over the Aussies who is the American subs over French subs are stupid too.

France is acting like they were entitled to Australia's business.

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Response to nycbos (Reply #10)

Fri Sep 17, 2021, 05:38 PM

11. Oh, and your knowledge of French military history apparently excludes Napoleon

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Response to BeyondGeography (Reply #11)

Fri Sep 17, 2021, 05:54 PM

12. Ah yes...

Last edited Fri Sep 17, 2021, 07:11 PM - Edit history (1)

... Another joke is France's armies are victorious in war when not led by a Frenchman.


Another good one is Frenchman can lead troops from other nations to victory.

Ev'ryone give it up for America's favorite fighting Frenchman


Lafayette!

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Response to nycbos (Reply #12)

Fri Sep 17, 2021, 06:04 PM

16. Almost as funny

as watching Gary Sanchez try to catch a baseball.

Tough times, signed, Yankee fan.

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Response to BeyondGeography (Original post)

Fri Sep 17, 2021, 05:57 PM

13. What the Frogs sounds like

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Response to nycbos (Reply #13)

Fri Sep 17, 2021, 06:03 PM

15. Enough of this! n/t

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Response to nycbos (Reply #13)

Sun Sep 19, 2021, 01:35 AM

36. ....







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Response to BeyondGeography (Original post)

Fri Sep 17, 2021, 05:59 PM

14. This is why they're pissed.....

[link:|

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Response to BeyondGeography (Original post)

Fri Sep 17, 2021, 06:13 PM

17. C'mon France.....

give our defense contractors a break! They've had a terrible summer and need some positive news.

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Response to Red Mountain (Reply #17)

Sat Sep 18, 2021, 04:34 AM

26. These are good middle class jobs. Why would anyone want to send them to France?

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Response to BeyondGeography (Original post)

Fri Sep 17, 2021, 06:21 PM

19. Besides which.....

the US may not get the contract. Our AUKUS (Australia-United Kingdom-United States) ally is competitive.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/42418/uk-starts-work-on-a-new-nuclear-submarine-right-after-australia-says-its-looking-to-buy

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Response to Red Mountain (Reply #19)

Sat Sep 18, 2021, 04:36 AM

27. The US is getting the contract.

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Response to BeyondGeography (Original post)

Fri Sep 17, 2021, 07:46 PM

20. I saw on another thread that the subs the French were building for the Aussies were diesel.

Whereas the subs the Aussies will receive from the new deal are nuclear. Not sure why France is all that shocked that the Aussies, when given the chance, elected to go with a newer, better technology. The advantages of nuclear over diesel are obvious, particularly if the Aussies will be taking those subs into areas that are tantamount to enemy territory.

Seems to me the French need to step up their shipbuilding capabilities if they want to compete. Pitching a fit because someone else offered a better product is pretty silly, IMO.

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Response to BeyondGeography (Original post)

Fri Sep 17, 2021, 07:48 PM

21. From what I have read

The Australian government has long been frustrated with the French contractor Naval Group over the latter's foot-dragging on the $90 billion submarine contract.

A Feb. 2021 article from ABC (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) goes into more detail on this deal:

According to this article from Bloomberg, this deal was made all the way back in 2016.

France had initially offered to sell Australia diesel-powered submarines that Australia did not want - either that or Australia wanted diesel-powered subs at first, only to have changed its mind later. France was running behind in supplying the nuclear-powered submarines Australia had requested, so the latter backed out of its agreement in favor of entering an alliance with the UK and US, angering France.

If I may offer my opinion on this, I believe the French are acting huffy over losing this lucrative arms deal, although I do question why the US had kept France in the dark about this new deal until almost the 11th hour. I do hope there was a good reason for that, and most of all, I hope that we can quickly smooth over these tensions.

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Response to Moebym (Reply #21)

Sat Sep 18, 2021, 04:38 AM

28. So the French couldn't blow up the deal,

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Response to Moebym (Reply #21)

Sat Sep 18, 2021, 11:21 AM

32. Also the French are trying to convert the nuclear Barracuda Class subs to diesel for the deal..

Something they have no experience in, their entire sub fleet is nuclear. They signed the deal 5 years ago and still not one sub has been built.
Even if they had ordered the nuclear version from the French the US reactors are sealed and last for the lifetime of the submarine unlike the ones France uses which have to be serviced every ten years.

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Response to BeyondGeography (Original post)

Fri Sep 17, 2021, 08:12 PM

23. C'est la Guerre

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Response to Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin (Reply #23)

Sat Sep 18, 2021, 07:58 AM

29. Oui. (n/t)

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Response to BeyondGeography (Original post)

Fri Sep 17, 2021, 10:45 PM

24. HUH?

Who cares? I don't!

Besides... if my memory serves me, was it France that made Trump jealous of a military parade and wanted to do the same in DC?

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Response to BeyondGeography (Original post)

Sun Sep 19, 2021, 01:19 AM

33. Australia needs a stronger navy, given

Chinaís belligerence and massive investment in itís military capability. It seems to me Australia could use a mix of nuclear submarines for ranging wide with the allies in the Pacific and SCS, and a conventional fleet for home water defense. Conventional subs CAN be quiet and deadly; itís the range and speed where they fall short.

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Response to BeyondGeography (Original post)

Sun Sep 19, 2021, 01:26 AM

34. So it looks like

Australia wants nuclear subs originally went with France to get the boats but France was unable to produce. The Aussieís got tired of waiting and decided to go with the US. Now France is mad.

We didnít get all bent and pull our Ambassadors when Airbus stepped in because Boeing was behaving criminally IMO and unable to produce.

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Response to BeyondGeography (Original post)

Sun Sep 19, 2021, 01:29 AM

35. Here's a wild guess


After taking office, it came to the attention of the Biden administration that France had acted against the interests of the U.S., perhaps making a deal with one of our competitors, say, Russia or China in the Pacific region?

They aren't going to tell us everything, and I'm sure Joe has very good reasons.

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Response to BeyondGeography (Original post)

Mon Sep 20, 2021, 12:21 PM

37. Oh my

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Response to BeyondGeography (Original post)

Mon Sep 20, 2021, 01:13 PM

38. Mixed feelings on this one.

I have mixed feelings on this one. We probably should have given the professional courtesy notice, and just because President Biden's Administration has a "D" for party affiliation doesn't mean they can't make mistakes.

On the other hand, this smells, imho, of SOUR GRAPES from the French side. The truth is that their defence industry has fallen behind in terms of competitiveness. They lost the contract because they blew it. The heady days of the early-2000's when France had the stunningly new and advanced Dassault Rafale 4+ generation fighter as well as top-of-the line frigates and subs is now over. They need to retool to become super competitive again, imho.

That being said, this is a serious quarrel that could have been prevented with a little bit better diplomacy on our part. At least Pres. Biden isn't malicious like former Pres. Trump is. That doesn't mean he can't make a mistake, though, and TRUE respect for him and his office includes potential criticism of his decisions.

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Response to BeyondGeography (Original post)

Mon Sep 20, 2021, 02:59 PM

39. I know everyone is focused on France's reaction, but I find China's more interesting

The CCP seems to get upset whenever a country in that region acquire weapons, often in response to Chinaís own build up. I am not just talking about the special case of Taiwan either. They complained about Japan building those fancy helicopter destroyers/carriers, Vietnam potentially getting an arms deal (a couple times), and now this nuclear submarine deal. It reminds me of the people over here who get upset when countries like Iran buy advanced Russian air defense systems.

I mean, come on guys. Countries have the right to defend themselves from potential threats.

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