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Thu Oct 1, 2020, 03:08 PM

Moscow to reinstate tough measures if COVID-19 rules ignored

Source: Reuters

MOSCOW (Reuters) - Moscow may reinstate tough measures if its 13 million population ignores COVID-19 protection rules, its mayor Sergei Sobyanin said on Thursday after the Russian capital started to record increases in daily cases of infection.

Moscow, the epicentre of Russia’s coronavirus outbreak earlier this year, registered 2,424 new cases overnight, up from below 700 in new daily cases in early September.

In an attempt to curb the recent spike in infections, Sobyanin has earlier ordered to extend an upcoming school holiday by a week and advised anyone with chronic health problems or those older than 65 to stay home.

On Thursday, he ordered employers to send at least 30% of their staff to work remotely from Oct. 5, saying on his blog that hospitalisations of people with COVID-19 were rising in Moscow by around 5,000 per week and that the share of children among the city’s sick had risen above 19% for the first time.

Read more: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-russia-moscow/moscow-to-reinstate-tough-measures-if-covid-19-rules-ignored-idUSKBN26M5YT



I thought that Russia had announced the approval of a vaccine to much fanfare similar to Trump's planned announcement of the approval of a vaccine a week or so before the election?

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Reply Moscow to reinstate tough measures if COVID-19 rules ignored (Original post)
TomCADem Oct 1 OP
C Moon Oct 1 #1
ProfessorGAC Oct 1 #8
bluewater Oct 1 #12
ProfessorGAC Oct 1 #13
bluewater Oct 1 #17
brewens Oct 1 #2
SkyDaddy7 Oct 1 #3
bluewater Oct 1 #4
TomCADem Oct 1 #5
bluewater Oct 1 #6
TomCADem Oct 1 #7
Post removed Oct 1 #10
TomCADem Oct 1 #16
bluewater Oct 1 #18
TomCADem Oct 1 #19
ProfessorGAC Oct 1 #9
bluewater Oct 1 #11
ProfessorGAC Oct 1 #14
bluewater Oct 1 #15
Xolodno Oct 2 #20

Response to TomCADem (Original post)

Thu Oct 1, 2020, 03:17 PM

1. That's what I was thinking: what happened to the vaccine? Did it kill too many people?

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Response to C Moon (Reply #1)

Thu Oct 1, 2020, 06:45 PM

8. Nope. There Never Was A Vaccine

Russia is not the epicenter of immunological research.
They aren't close to a vaccine, but in the interest of interfering with the election, they lied about one being imminent.
Not that anyone here would be surprised to hear Russia lied.

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Response to ProfessorGAC (Reply #8)

Thu Oct 1, 2020, 08:07 PM

12. The Lancet disagrees with you.

"Nope. There Never Was A Vaccine"

The Lancet is a weekly peer-reviewed general medical journal. It is among the world's oldest and best-known general medical journals.[1][2]


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lancet

The Lancet published the phase 1 and phase 2 studies for the Russian vaccine.



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Response to bluewater (Reply #12)

Thu Oct 1, 2020, 08:33 PM

13. I Think They've Been Duped

You didn't need to tell anybody what the Lancet is.
Lots of smart folks here.
I think the data has been distorted, at best, and fabricated at worst.
I'm not alone in believing that.

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Response to ProfessorGAC (Reply #13)

Thu Oct 1, 2020, 09:20 PM

17. Hitchen's Razor: "What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence."


Hitchens's razor

Hitchens's razor is an epistemological razor expressed by writer Christopher Hitchens. It says that the burden of proof regarding the truthfulness of a claim lies with the one who makes the claim; if this burden is not met, then the claim is unfounded, and its opponents need not argue further in order to dismiss it.

Hitchens has phrased the razor in writing as "What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence."[1][2][3][4]


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitchens%27s_razor

Enjoy your Evening.

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Response to TomCADem (Original post)

Thu Oct 1, 2020, 03:40 PM

2. I had to check to make sure it was not Moscow, ID. Watch for news from there. I expect

COVID problems at New St. Andrews College there. It's run by Christ Church. The church just had a couple people arrested protesting the city of Moscow mask mandate.

I worked a lot of blood drives at the college. really nice people, but you wouldn't want to go in there. It's an old building with small classrooms. If enrollment is down because of the pandemic, that might help. If they aren't taking precautions, it's a prime spot for a breakout.

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Response to TomCADem (Original post)

Thu Oct 1, 2020, 04:25 PM

3. SPUTNIK-V?????

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Response to TomCADem (Original post)

Thu Oct 1, 2020, 05:01 PM

4. Did you read your own OP article? Seems not completely.

TomCADem: "I thought that Russia had announced the approval of a vaccine to much fanfare similar to Trump's planned announcement of the approval of a vaccine a week or so before the election?"

Um, your own OP article seems to answer that quite clearly.

From the OP Article:

Russia has so far developed two anti-coronavirus vaccines, Sputnik V backed by the Russian Direct Investment Fund and another developed by Siberia’s Vector Institute, with final trials for the both yet to be completed.

Sobyanin [Moscow's mayor] said on Thursday Moscow hoped to get a big supply of an anti-coronavirus vaccine in November-December which could resolve issues related to the pandemic, TASS quoted him as saying.


And it's nice though, isn't it, that the Mayor of Moscow seems to be planning a rational, science based response to a spike in cases in his city, unlike most of the Republican Governors here at home, hmmm?

Glad to be of assistance.

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Response to bluewater (Reply #4)

Thu Oct 1, 2020, 05:10 PM

5. That is the point. Russia is still addressing spike even though Putin made a big deal...

...about the approval of a vaccine even though "final trials for the both yet to be completed." That would suggest that Putin's big announcement of the approval of a vaccine was a lie. Likewise, the mayor of Moscow is pinning his hopes on the distribution of a
vaccine next month for which testing has not been completed?

This is similar to Trump's own planned announcement:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump-fixates-on-the-promise-of-a-vaccine-%e2%80%94-real-or-not-%e2%80%94-as-key-to-reelection-bid/ar-BB18KaW0?li=BBnb7Kz

Trump fixates on the promise of a vaccine -- real or not -- as key to reelection bid

President Trump is so fixated on finding a vaccine for the novel coronavirus that in meetings about the U.S. pandemic response, little else captures his attention, according to administration officials.

Trump has pressed health officials to speed up the vaccine timeline and urged them to deliver one by the end of the year. He has peppered them with questions about the development status and mass-distribution plans. And, in recent days, he has told some advisers and aides that a vaccine may arrive by Nov. 1, which just happens to be two days before the presidential election.

Trump’s desire to deliver a vaccine — or at least convince the public that one is very near — by the time voters decide whether to elect him to a second term is in part a campaign gambit to improve his standing with an electorate that overwhelmingly disapproves of his management of the pandemic.

“We remain on track to deliver a vaccine before the end of the year and maybe even before November 1st,” Trump told reporters at a Friday news conference. “We think we can probably have it some time during the month of October.”

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Response to TomCADem (Reply #5)

Thu Oct 1, 2020, 05:26 PM

6. You seem to not understand what REGISTRATION of the Russian Vaccines means.

Last edited Thu Oct 1, 2020, 06:00 PM - Edit history (1)

Previously, with some fanfare, the REGISTRATION of the first Russian vaccine, Sputnik V was announced.
And what does that mean exactly?
Well this article from the New York Times explains that some while reporting that a second Russian vaccine will soon also be registered.


Early clinical trials have been completed on a second Russian vaccine, a health official said Wednesday, moving it closer to registration under the Russian approach of approving vaccines for emergency use before beginning late-stage trials to determine whether they are effective.

Early trials provide information about safety, though rare side effects may go undetected until much larger late-stage trials are conducted. The later trials, known as Phase 3, are the only means of determining whether a vaccine actually protects against the coronavirus.

Russia registered its first Covid-19 vaccine — one based on common cold viruses — in August, and is now offering a small number of doses outside of trials to people at elevated risk of infection, like health care workers. Western vaccine experts criticized the Russian approach as potentially dangerous.

Anna Papova, the head of Rospotrebnadzor, a Russian agency regulating health care, said on Wednesday that researchers had completed early clinical trials of a different vaccine, based on proteins that mimic those in the coronavirus.

Ms. Papova defended the Russian regulatory approach, saying that it drew on a long history of Soviet vaccine development. “The Russian vaccines deserve absolutely no criticism,” she said.

Her agency said earlier this month that it planned to register the second vaccine, made by Vektor, a Siberian laboratory that studied biological weapons during the Cold War, by Oct. 15. A third Russian vaccine, made by the Chumakov Institute in Moscow and based on inactivated coronavirus, is now in early-stage trials.



https://www.nytimes.com/live/2020/09/30/world/covid-19-coronavirus#a-second-vaccine-nears-approval-in-russia

So, the Russian approach is once these vaccines have gone thru the small phase 1 and phase 2 studies, they will REGISTER the vaccine as suitable for use in those high risk workers most exposed to possible infection. In the case of the Sputnik V vaccine, those phase 1 and phase 2 studies seemed promising, with no alarming side effects. Further studies will ultimately determine it's effectiveness and safety for general use.

Honestly, this is similar to our approach here about allowing experimental treatments on a compassionate basis for diseases and conditions with no approved cures/treatments.

Again, most glad to be of assistance. I hope this clears up any confusion that anyone might have about what REGISTRATION of a treatment after phase 1 and phase 2 studies in Russia actually means.

Also, let me once again commend the Moscow mayor for pursuing a rational, science based response to the pandemic in his city. As your OP stated:

In an attempt to curb the recent spike in infections, Sobyanin has earlier ordered to extend an upcoming school holiday by a week and advised anyone with chronic health problems or those older than 65 to stay home.
On Thursday, he ordered employers to send at least 30% of their staff to work remotely from Oct. 5


That's so much saner than the reckless disregard exhibited by Republican Gov. DeSantis in Florida, no?

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Response to bluewater (Reply #6)

Thu Oct 1, 2020, 06:42 PM

7. ABC News: Putin anoints coronavirus vaccine. International scientists aren't so sure.

My post is directed to the actions of Putin in touting a vaccine before testing was complete. I mean bragging that his own daughter took it before testing is complete? How is that different from Trump bragging about how he takes hydrocholoriquine?

https://abcnews.go.com/International/putin-anoints-coronavirus-vaccine-international-scientists/story?id=72305866

President Vladimir Putin said Russia has become the first nation to approve a COVID-19 vaccine, effectively triumphing in what some around the globe have compared to the Space Race.

But while Putin said the vaccine, named Sputnik V after the world's first satellite, has "passed all necessary tests," many experts have said the drug hasn't yet been subjected to rigorous tests to prove it's effective -- or, more crucially, safe -- for large-scale use. Although potentially promising, the vaccine appears to be at the same stage, or even behind, others under development.

Russia's health ministry approved the vaccine just two months after trials began, and the ministry said it plans to start administering dosages to front-line workers such as medical staff and teachers by the end of this month. Mass voluntary vaccinations, according to the ministry, could begin by October.

Putin told officials at a televised meeting that he believed the vaccine "forms strong immunity" and was confident in it because it had been administered to his adult daughter.


https://abcnews.go.com/US/fauci-doubts-russias-covid-19-vaccine-safe-effective/story?id=72309297

Fauci says he has serious doubts Russia's COVID-19 vaccine is safe, effective

Dr. Anthony Fauci told ABC News' Deborah Roberts that he seriously doubts the Russian-made COVID-19 vaccine, dubbed Sputnik V and touted by President Vladimir Putin, has been proven safe and effective.

Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, shared the comments exclusively with National Geographic in a virtual panel discussion moderated by Roberts. The discussion is scheduled to air Thursday at 1 p.m. ET.

"I hope that the Russians have actually, definitively proven that the vaccine is safe and effective," Fauci said. "I seriously doubt that they've done that."

Russia's health ministry approved the vaccine after only two months of trials.

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Response to TomCADem (Reply #7)


Response to Post removed (Reply #10)

Thu Oct 1, 2020, 09:17 PM

16. Putin's bold claims for Sputnik V put Russia's vaccine on the map. Western scientists remain skeptic

You are right. I do believe that Putin's early pronouncements on a vaccine are similar to Trump's. Russia is not really any further along on a vaccine then the U.S., Europe or China, but Putin makes a big show of announcing a vaccine. I understand that you are putting in the fine print to suggest to minimize what Putin did, but my post related to what said Putin said.

How is what Putin did any different from what Trump plans to do if Russia is no further along in testing that the U.S.? If Trump announced back in August that he approved a vaccine, but then in the small print that you mentioned above it turns out that much testing still needed to be done through the rest of the year before it could actually be distributed for wide use in early 2021, I think he would have been rightfully ridiculed.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2020-10-01/russia-covid-19-vaccine-sputnik-v-has-scientist-doubters-in-the-west

The president’s live-TV announcement glossed over one key point. Russia approved the vaccine after tests in fewer than 80 people, with larger trials needed to assess safety and effectiveness just underway. Putin’s claim of victory has met with skepticism and disapproval from health experts in the West, where shots will have to be tested in tens of thousands of subjects before being cleared.

The vaccine will be ready for wide distribution late this year or early next, officials say. That's roughly the same schedule as shots from rivals in the U.S., U.K. and China. Initial results from final-stage studies won’t be ready until November, with full data expected next year.

“Overall I’d say Russia is a little bit behind the leading Western candidates,” said Rasmus Bech Hansen, CEO of Airfinity Ltd., a London-based firm that tracks Covid-19 vaccine and drug development, “but not far behind.”

Putin’s August announcement has already delivered one key result for the Kremlin: It put Russia’s previously under-the-radar vaccine efforts on the map, triggering a rush of requests from governments around the world to buy or produce the shot. By late September, the head of the state fund backing the project said it had orders for 1.2 billion doses.

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Response to TomCADem (Reply #16)

Thu Oct 1, 2020, 09:43 PM

18. I agree, Russia is definitely among the world leaders in vaccine development.

"Russia is not really any further along on a vaccine then the U.S., Europe or China"

I agree, Russia is definitely among the world leaders in vaccine development and all those leaders are in the same ballpark in terms of vaccine delivery.

I have taken the opportunity in this thread to point out, with facts, how far along Russia's vaccine development is, and how their approach to roll-out differs from ours here in the US. In my opinion, both approaches have some merit and some drawbacks.

What has made Russia's approach noteworthy is the assessment that it would be unethical not to allow those people most exposed to the virus--namely heath care workers, doctors, teachers--the choice of taking their vaccine at this point in time, as opposed to waiting for all phase 3 testing to conclude. They feel that people should have the choice to take the vaccine if they feel the risks of contracting covid 19 would be even greater.

That sounds pretty reasonable to me.

My family members -- a nurse and two teachers -- agree. All three said, for example, they would take the Pfizer vaccine now, even though its phase 3 studies are not complete.

This statement of yours makes a cogent point:
Putin’s August announcement has already delivered one key result for the Kremlin: It put Russia’s previously under-the-radar vaccine efforts on the map, triggering a rush of requests from governments around the world to buy or produce the shot. By late September, the head of the state fund backing the project said it had orders for 1.2 billion doses.


The early roll-out of the Sputnik V vaccine was both a source of Russian national pride and an opportunity for their sovereign investment fund to stake out some world market share for their vaccine.

Thanks for the discussion.

Enjoy your evening.

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Response to bluewater (Reply #18)

Thu Oct 1, 2020, 11:58 PM

19. So, You Think It Would Be Okay for Trump To Prematurely Announce...

...a vaccine even though a lot of testing has yet to take place?

It seems like you are really trying hard to justify what Russia did when it is ostensibly worse than what Trump has suggested he would do, which is announce the approval of a vaccine even though a lot of testing remains and it is nowhere near ready for production?

The early roll-out of the Sputnik V vaccine was both a source of Russian national pride and an opportunity for their sovereign investment fund to stake out some world market share for their vaccine.


There is no early roll out. Russia is actually a bit behind, but they just announced that they have approved a vaccine for PR purposes even though much testing remains to be done. Thus, rather than pride, Putin just comes off like an insecure strong man who wants to brag and take credit for something that is not even complete.

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Response to bluewater (Reply #4)

Thu Oct 1, 2020, 06:49 PM

9. You Sure You Believe Them?

I don't. Russia has immunology research funding in the bottom third of the industrialized world.
They are way down the list in per capita GDP, so that makes sense.
I am highly dubious that they have advanced faster than the US, UK, EU countries, or Japan.
I think that info was disseminated as disinformation to give PINO a positive talking point.

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Response to ProfessorGAC (Reply #9)

Thu Oct 1, 2020, 07:21 PM

11. "They are way down the list in per capita GDP, so that makes sense." Um, No.

Um, in terms of GDP PPP, Russia has the 5th or 6th largest economy in the world.

This article includes a list of countries by their forecasted estimated gross domestic product based on purchasing power parity, abbreviated GDP (PPP).[2] Countries are sorted by GDP (PPP) forecast estimates from financial and statistical institutions that calculate using market or government official exchange rates. The data given on this page are based on the international dollar, a standardized unit used by economists. Certain regions that are not widely considered countries such as the European Union and Hong Kong also show up in the list if they are distinct jurisdiction areas or economic entities.

GDP comparisons using PPP are arguably more useful than those using nominal GDP when assessing a nation's domestic market because PPP takes into account the relative cost of local goods, services and inflation rates of the country, rather than using international market exchange rates, which may distort the real differences in per capita income.




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)


Also, having a strong bio-research sector is not that expensive a proposition. Especially since many countries, the US and Russia included, have long established and well funded biological warfare programs --For purely defensive purposes, I am sure-- that can be readily applied to vaccine research.

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Response to bluewater (Reply #11)

Thu Oct 1, 2020, 08:45 PM

14. Nice Try, But Fail

I said, and you quoted "per capita". Did you even read your own post title?
Then you present a chart of absolute values. Silly.
They are, for instance, far below Canada, Sweden, Norway, Italy, France, Germany, England... Need I go on?
I'll do your research for you. They're 57th on the GDP per capita list. That meets the definition of " way down"
https://www.worldometers.info/gdp/gdp-per-capita/

And, your connection to a defunct, (because they could no longer afford to fund it) bio weapon program is specious.
Bioweapon research only modestly works to identify the immunology elements of the agents.
If they were so good at it, why, when the bioweapons work was still massively funded, did they have the 4 worst bioweapons accidents in history. Could it be that they weren't that good at reversing the damage?

I find it distressing that a single person at DU would believe anything coming from a country that has 95% control of outward information flow.

Same goes for The Lancet. They should he embarrassed.

You tried a "gotcha" and failed.

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Response to ProfessorGAC (Reply #14)

Thu Oct 1, 2020, 08:52 PM

15. So let's just ignore that Russia has the 5th largest economy in the world?

Or 6th largest. Germany and them are neck and neck, but economists project that Russia will definitively have the largest economy in continental Europe in a matter of years. Sanctions not withstanding. But sure, countries like Russia and China and India are not as rich as, say, Luxemburg, but they are economically vastly more powerful.

"per capita" rankings would place a country like Kuwait at or near the top, which in terms of actual economic power is meaningless.

Russia, with a population of 146 million is in the same economic ballpark as Japan with a population of 126 million and Germany with a population of 84 million. These are midsized countries population-wise in today's world.

The UK, which is also a world leader in vaccine development, has an economy smaller than Russia's. That's illustrative that vaccine development is not that constrained by GDP.

Enjoy your evening.

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Response to TomCADem (Original post)

Fri Oct 2, 2020, 01:20 AM

20. I'm sure they have a vaccine....

...just hasn't been tested enough that no other harmful side effects, such as "death" on certain segments of the population.

But even with a vaccine and it does work, its going to take around two quarters to get everyone inoculated. During that time, you still have to keep everything clamped down.

And let me drop the other shoe, its a vaccine, not a cure. So in addition to getting the flu shot on an annual basis, were going to have to get COVID-19 shots as well.

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