Gunman kills 3 at NC lumber company

[warrior1]

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/01/13/10148740-gunman-kills-3-at-nc-lumber-company

STAR, N.C. -- A gunman opened fire Friday at a lumber company, killing three people and injuring one before shooting himself, local media reported.

Montgomery County Sheriff Dempsey Owens told WXII 12 that deputies were called to McBride Lumber Company just after 6 a.m.

snip

[Doctor_J]

2. A small price to pay for "freedom"

and let's not forget that this wouldn't have happened if everyone at the lumber yard had been packing.

Feel free to append any other NRA talking points that make no sense.

[Hugabear]

3. He could have easily have done just as much killing with a knife

Or a baseball bat.

Guns do not make it any easier to kill multiple targets in a short amount of time.

[Mopar151]

4. I would beg to differ

You gotta get right up close to off someone with a knife or club, and it is no sure thing then - and the target may simply run away.
Not so with a gun - You can kill someone with little physical effort, hundreds of feet away.

[Hugabear]

9. Look at the post I was responding to

Poster asked "Feel free to append any other NRA talking points that make no sense"

I've heard NRA-types claim that people could kill just as many people with knives, bats, and other types of close-quarter weapons.

[Mopar151]

11. Yeah, the deadly golf club theory....

I think I was trying to concur with your sarcasam, or somethin' like that.

[saras]

29. It was a lumberyard - everyone could defend themselves with 2x4s against a bat.

Maybe there really are middle-class sheeple dumb enough to stand around in line while a single individual clubs a whole bunch of them to death with a bat, and as far as I can tell by observing the middle class, this is actually rather likely.

But I don't think you'll find very many working-class people who will stand for it.

[tabasco]

34. LOL

That's why the Army has that knife battalion.

[ellisonz]

47. +1000

[AlbertCat]

39. with a knife Or a baseball bat.

Perhaps.

Of course this ignores the blatant fact that a knife and a baseball bat are meant to be used for something else besides killing something. A gun... not so much. Using a baseball bat (or a car, or a chainsaw, or a pair of scissors...and so on) to kill something is misusing the item. Using a gun to kill something is using it correctly.

Try not to completely ignore this when forming an argument that has something to do with anything.

[Atypical Liberal]

42. Having a gun may not save you from a criminal with a gun...

...but not having a gun will definitely not save you from a criminal with a gun.

[MarkCharles]

68. ERGO, we should arm our children from age two onward..

right?

After all, children as young as two are killed with guns every year.

They should be able to defend themselves.

[Atypical Liberal]

70. Straw man.

That is a straw man argument. No one has advocated arming children.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

[hack89]

8. How about some perspective? How many Americans die every day? Just curious. nt

[Doctor_J]

15. 88 more than would die if the NRA didn't have a foothold in the government

perspective

[hack89]

35. Since gun deaths are at historic lows and steadily declining

it looks like we are on the right path - right?

[AlbertCat]

43. it looks like we are on the right path - right?

Well, we are.


Whether gun ownership, laws, the NRA, Dems or Repugs and/or the 2nd Amendment have anything to do with it is still a mystery.

[hack89]

44. But it is clear that they are not making things worse.

so why worry about it? Just accept the fact that you have never been safer and next year you will be safer yet.

[Hoyt]

16. "Perspective?" You guys kill me. You'll take any view to protect your access to more guns.

[vminfla]

19. Firearm Homicides are not all that common and dropping

http://webappa.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/mortrate10_sy.html

Firearm "deaths" (both homicide and non-homicide) are less than automobiles or poisoning deaths. The majority of firearm related deaths -- where the 88 # came from -- are from suicides. Factoring out suicides, the daily death toll from guns is high, but you should be more worried about being poisoned to death than an incident involving a gun.

[Hoyt]

21. It might be "insignificant" with 4% packing now, how about when 40% of population is carrying a gun.

If the 4% who pack now have their way, everyone will be packing down the road. At that point, accidental shootings, spousal abuse, stolen guns, armed road rage, etc., will clearly produce enough firearm deaths that even those obsessed with guns will see it as "significant." Of course, we'll have 100 million more guns to deal with.

[vminfla]

24. At what point in American History has gun ownership ever reached those levels?

There is no significant deterrent today for greater than 4% ownership. Nor has there ever been. Believe it or not, the market for gun owners is fairly inelastic. You either want a gun or you don't.

Your 40% analogy sounds like a slippery slope logical fallacy.

[Hoyt]

25. 4% is those who carry in public. I think that will increase if NRA, TParty, etc., have their way.

Those stuck in the "gun culture" will always want others to join them in their miserable view of life and society.

[vminfla]

28. Doubt it

Unless the price of guns and bullets go down, that 4% will remain as about as constant as it always has been. Although, it is interesting to note the disdain you hold for gun owners and how quickly you dismiss their motives for gun ownership. I can only hope that gun opponents are unsuccessful in forcing their miserable view of life and society on those that choose to embrace gun ownership.

[Hoyt]

30. Carrying guns in public is more than merely "embracing gun ownership."

It is "carrying it" too far in my opinion.

You should visit the "gungeon" where weekly those who promote guns in public post and cheer all the new permits issued. I think guns are a much bigger issue than you realize.

[vminfla]

65. The only way you can get from here to there is through a slippery slope

nt

[PavePusher]

60. hoyt is worried about guns "polluting society".

So far, he's failed to define what that means.

[slackmaster]

37. Hoyt, do you have any kind of evidence to support your major extrapolation here?

Objective standards for issuing concealed weapons permits have been in place in some states as far back as 1984, and I don't know of any where even 1% of the people have even gotten permits much less carry a weapon daily.

Most people don't get permits because they don't want one, or can't qualify.

[Atypical Liberal]

38. CCW permit holders are less likely to be involved in crime than you are.

Since CCW permit holders are hardly ever involved in any kind of crime, let alone firearm-related crime, it seems to me that if 40% of the population were CCW permit holders we would see a huge decrease in crime.

Of course, crime, including violent crime, is continuing its decades-long decline and is currently at historic lows.

[Hoyt]

67. Those who don't pack are even less likely to be involved in gun crimes.

Declining crime rates are not due to you and others parading around with guns. Aging population, better surveillance, longer sentences, etc., are.

[Atypical Liberal]

71. But again, you don't get to pick the people who are around you in the population at large.

Those who don't pack are even less likely to be involved in gun crimes.

Yes, Hoyt, we've been over this ground already. If you never pick up a gun, you will never commit a gun crime. I get it.

But you have no control over the people around you in public. Some of those people will be carrying firearms, lawfully or not.

And when you compare CCW permit holders against everyone else in society that you might encounter from the public at large, CCW permit holders are many times less likely to be involved in any kind of crime, let alone firearm-related crime.

It's like saying virgins will never have STDs, so you can sleep with anyone you want and not have to worry about getting an STD. Yes, it is a fact that virgins won't ever get STDs. But that fact does you no good as you move in a world where you cannot simply surround yourself with virgins.

[ellisonz]

48. Seriously...

Tell that to the families of these victims. Tell them that everything is just fine. Tell it 88 times every day.

[hack89]

53. So what number is "fine"?

when will you say that we have done all we can do? If your number is zero, what are you willing to do to get there?

[ellisonz]

61. Numbers comparable to other Westernized nations...

[hack89]

69. So name a figure. nt

[vminfla]

57. Seriously

Unless you are going to go around town wrapping yourself in kevlar bubble wrap and hiring your own personal food taster, life is going to be full of risks. The odd chance that you may be directly affected by gun violence is dwarfed by the chance that you will be poisoned or in a vehicle accident. Seriously. This was an unfortunate tragedy, but this incident is the exception, not the rule. Guns are used every day in a variety of responsible and safe ways.

[montanto]

20. I don't know, but I do know that 140 or so will

die as a result of "second hand cigarette smoke." I know that something like 500 people will die today of preventable medical errors. Thousands of people die every day from preventable causes related to habits and diet.

[Hoyt]

23. Don't just focus on deaths -- injuries, intimidation, future impact, etc., are considerations.

You bring up a good point though -- we have been smart enough to ban a lot of smoking in public in recent years.

At the same time, those who can't walk out of their house without a gun or two, have been successful in getting the backing of right wing legislators to pass laws allowing more guns in public. It's like people are really afraid they are going to be attacked standing in line at Chuck E Cheez or something if they don't have a gun strapped to their bodies.

[hack89]

54. Lets also focus on lives saved through defensive use of guns. Since we are doing all this focusing.

nt

[hack89]

10. Over 1600 Americans will die today of heart disease, another 200 from alcohol.

there are many many other things to worry about besides guns.

[Hoyt]

26. Yet, you carry a gun rather than a defibrillator.

[Atypical Liberal]

40. Any defibrillators that fit in my hand yet? n/t

[ellisonz]

49. And we have massive efforts to combat those things...

I'll condemn big food and and big booze just as much as I condemn big guns.

We must do better in this country. You can not rationalize your way out of suffering. It is by definition an irrational affliction.

[hack89]

51. Compared to heart disease or drunk driving we have been very successful combating gun violence.

Every year the suffering is less and less- our laws and policies appear to be working

Would you consider regulating food and alcohol like you would guns? Why shouldn't people with a record of DUI be banned from buying alcohol for example?

[hack89]

52. Suicides and drug related violence are two major causes of gun deaths

Fully funding mental health and rationalizing our insane "war on drugs" would do more to reduce gun deaths than further restrictions on law abiding gun owners. Taking away my guns would have absolutely no impact what so ever on gun violence. Let concentrate on the real problem.

[jpak]

5. But I thought all those stupid GOP/NRA guns laws they just passed would prevent this?

I guess they lied

yup

[hack89]

7. You thought wrong

where has anyone said that any law would eliminate criminal acts?

[jpak]

12. But...but...but... guns at work, concealed carry everywhere and castle laws would fix all this!

I guess it didn't

nope

[hack89]

13. Like all those laws that eliminated drunk driving or drug use? Those kind of laws? nt

[Remmah2]

14. No proof the workers at the mill took advantage of them.

Go figure.

[Doctor_J]

18. Hasn't been time to take hold yet.

In a little while when everyone is packing, shootings will disappear completely.

For the NRA's ideal situation, you need to look to Northern Illinois U. A crazy with a gun walked into a lecture hall and started firing. In NRA Utopia, all 120 students, upon seeing the mass murderer, would stand, remove their own sidearms from their holsters, and open fire. Surely you can see how much better that would be.

Right-wing logic eludes me on all levels.

[Hoyt]

27. That's much the way I see it too. Hundreds killed in the crossfire.

[Atypical Liberal]

41. Can you point to a single incident of this ever happening?

[Hoyt]

45. We are talking about the future if gun proliferation continues. Try to keep up.

Like most political issues, you have to look toward the future. You guys can't because you are stuck in the past, clinging to your guns. Seems like someone said something like that, and I agree. Time to give em up, or some of em anyway.

[hack89]

55. There has been 20 years of "proliferation".

the future has arrived already.

[Atypical Liberal]

56. Ah, Hoyt the fortune teller. Can you pick a lottery number for me, too?

We've had nearly 30 years of ever-more-liberal gun laws in this country, going from virtually no states allowing CCW to now every state except one. CCW permit holders have been shown to be less likely to be involved in any kind of crime, let alone firearm-related crime, than people who don't have a CCW permit.

So on what basis are you making this prediction?

[Hoyt]

59. CCWers have NOT been shown to be less involved in crime than those who qualify for a permit, but

choose not to carry a gun. You keep saying that, but you are comparing gun carriers to the population as a whole. Try comparing carriers to those who are rational and choose not to carry, but could qualify for a permit.

[Atypical Liberal]

62. You are surrounded by the population as a whole, so it is completely appropriate to compare to them.

People like you keep saying that we should not allow concealed carry because people who carry concealed firearms might do bad things with their guns.

But compared to everyone else you are likely to encounter on the street, which includes the entire population, including those people who can't get a permit and those who can., CCW permit holders hardly ever are involved in crime.

You are surrounded by the population as a whole.

If you are worried about random crime that might happen from concealed carry permit holders, then you are likewise worried about random crime that might be committed by the population as a whole.

In other words, you could encounter anyone on the street - anyone from the population as a whole. And if the person you encounter happens to have a concealed carry permit, they are much less likely to victimize you violently than anyone else you might encounter.

You want to compare all law-abiding people against each other, and ignore criminals you might encounter on the street. Well of course! If you exclude the criminal element in society, you will naturally be very safe! But no one has that luxury. When you go out in the world you are surrounded by the population as a whole. Some of those people will be bad people, and some of them will be concealed carry permit holders.

And the fact is, when you encounter a CCW permit holder, compared to everyone else you might encounter in public, you can be certain that that person is much less likely to be involved in any kind of crime, let alone firearm-related crime, than anyone else you might encounter in the population as a whole. You can be certain that they have never been adjudicated mentally incompetent, they have never been involuntarily committed to a mental institution, and they have never been convicted of a disqualifying felony.

[Hoyt]

63. OK, let's throw CCWers in with everyone who carries a gun, including criminals.

See how you rate then.

"The CCWers are less likely to commit a crime" argument is just bogus and is not a rationale for letting almost anyone carry a gun in public.

[Atypical Liberal]

64. When you go out in public you are surrounded by the PUBLIC AT LARGE, not just people who carry guns.

OK, let's throw CCWers in with everyone who carries a gun, including criminals.

See how you rate then.

"The CCWers are less likely to commit a crime" argument is just bogus and is not a rationale for letting almost anyone carry a gun in public.

That is not a valid comparison.

If I drop you off in the middle of downtown Atlanta, you are surrounded by the population at large. This is your society. These are the people you live with.

Not just a subset of "everyone who could get a CCW permit", and not just a subset of "everyone who carries a gun".

No.

You are surrounded by the public at large. That includes everyone. Criminals. Law-abiding people. Armed people. Unarmed people.

If you are concerned about the crimes a CCW permit holder might commit against you, you have to compare them against all the other people you might encounter while in public.

That is the public at large.

There's no point in comparing CCW permit holders just against armed people, because when you go out in public, because you are not just surrounded by armed people.

There is no point in comparing CCW permit holders against just people who can lawfully carry firearms, because you are not just surrounded by people who can lawfully carry firerams.

If you are going to single out CCW permit holders as being especially dangerous, you can only consider how dangerous they are compared to everyone else you might encounter in public. And that means comparing them against everyone else you might encounter in public.

That includes criminals, law-abiding people, armed people, and unarmed people, crazy people, sane people, and everything in between.

And when you make that comparison, you see that CCW permit holders are much less likely to be involved in any kind of crime, let alone firearm-related crime, than everyone else.

But even when you compare them against other CCW permit holders, the rate of permit revocation is less than 2%, which means that even compared against themselves, 98% of CCW permit holders aren't involved in a crime serious enough to warrant revocation of their permits.

The bottom line is your fears of CCW permit holders is completely unfounded. You have no rational basis for this fear. It is an irrational phobia.

[Hoyt]

66. Fine. I'd still be better off if you and the criminals weren't armed.

My "fears" don't cause me to strap a gun or two on and walk around in society.

More guns are not the answer for society, just the subset who can't seem to function without more guns.

[Atypical Liberal]

72. Why are you lumping in highly law-abiding people with criminals?

Fine. I'd still be better off if you and the criminals weren't armed.

While you would certainly be better off if criminals weren't armed, why are you throwing lawful people like myself into the mix?

In what way will you be better off if I am not armed?

My "fears" don't cause me to strap a gun or two on and walk around in society.

More guns are not the answer for society, just the subset who can't seem to function without more guns.

Blah blah blah more "fear" bullshit again.

[jpak]

32. "when everyone is packing, shootings will disappear completely"

possibly the dumbest post I have ever read on DU

[ManiacJoe]

73. But it is a great straw man by Doctor_J.

[UpInArms]

6. just once, I would like to read where the guy killed himself first

sigh

[Hoyt]

17. That would be ideal.

[ileus]

22. all the more reason to CC or OC everywhere.

Never leave home without your PSD.

[jpak]

31. Didn't work here

yup

[Lance_Boyle]

33. maybe no ccw holders present

NC is a "shall issue" state but individual county sheriffs get to decide how the "shall" is interpreted and how many hoops you have to jump through to get one. I took my course and got my certification a month ago, and submitted my application to the sheriff's office within days. In my county the sheriff wants (and historically uses) all of 90 days to grant the permit. Two of the others in the cert class with me live in another county and turned in their applications the same day I did - they have their permits in hand already.

[Hoyt]

50. Thank goodness no other toters were present. They would likely have made things worse.

Yea, I can't say for sure -- but I would bet serious money on a cowboy with a gun or two strapped to their body would make things worse.

[LarryNM]

36. A Different Look

I wonder how many of these workplace shootings involve bullying in the workplace or the company's failed attempts to deal with it. Even if not bullying, all workplace acts of violence, threats of violence or tensions at home and in the workplace should be noted and dealt with as best as possible Prior to future events for the mental and physical well-being of all. Observe, Report, Take Action.

[Mopar151]

46. Read "Odd Girl Out" by Rachel Simmons

It's about how girls bully, a la "Mean Girls". Many of the ogres of the workplace operate the same way......

[bathroommonkey76]

58. The shooter died of his wounds early this morning.

http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/10599913/