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Wed Mar 25, 2020, 05:04 PM

US Justice Department: Don't treat trans athletes as girls

Source: AP

HARTFORD, Conn. (AP) — The U.S. Justice Department is getting involved in a federal civil rights lawsuit that seeks to block transgender athletes in Connecticut from competing as girls in interscholastic sports.

Attorney General William Barr signed what is known as a statement of interest Tuesday, arguing against the policy of the Connecticut Interscholastic Athletic Conference, the board that oversees the state’s high school athletic competitions.

The conference allows athletes to compete as the gender with which they identify, arguing it is following a state law that requires high school students be treated according to their gender identity. It also argues the policy is in accordance with Title IX, the federal law that allows girls equal educational opportunities, including in athletics.

[...]

“Under CIAC’s interpretation of Title IX, however, schools may not account for the real physiological differences between men and women. Instead, schools must have certain biological males — namely, those who publicly identify as female — compete against biological females,” Barr and the other department officials write. “In so doing, CIAC deprives those women of the single-sex athletic competitions that are one of the marquee accomplishments of Title IX.”

Read more: https://apnews.com/96ae2ed8ef4cfb2b450ef3b4fac8a954



More from the Hartford Courant about one of the plaintiffs, Selina Soule:

Soule, in an interview on Fox News’ “Tucker Carlson Tonight,” pointed specifically to the 2018-19 indoor track season. During the State Open preliminaries in the 55-meter dash, Soule finished eighth... With the top seven runners moving on to the finals, Soule was eliminated from competition unfairly she claimed. The top six runners in the finals are automatically entered into the New England High School Indoor Championships where, the complaint claims, numerous college coaches could see her run and offer scholarships.


This February 2020 story notes that Chelsea Mitchell, one of the other plaintiffs, took first place by just 0.02 second over a transgender runner.

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Arrow 31 replies Author Time Post
Reply US Justice Department: Don't treat trans athletes as girls (Original post)
alp227 Mar 25 OP
pnwmom Mar 25 #1
moriah Mar 25 #2
janterry Mar 25 #3
comradebillyboy Mar 26 #27
pnwmom Mar 25 #4
elias7 Mar 25 #5
3catwoman3 Mar 25 #16
Blackjackdavey Mar 26 #18
OldBaldy1701E Mar 26 #17
Blackjackdavey Mar 26 #19
Arthur_Frain Mar 26 #28
LizBeth Mar 26 #29
oldsoftie Mar 25 #6
eggplant Mar 25 #9
Tumbulu Mar 25 #11
oldsoftie Mar 25 #12
qwlauren35 Mar 26 #22
I_UndergroundPanther Mar 25 #7
catsudon Mar 25 #8
eggplant Mar 25 #10
pnwmom Mar 25 #13
ripcord Mar 25 #14
ck4829 Mar 26 #21
I_UndergroundPanther Mar 26 #26
OverBurn Mar 25 #15
ck4829 Mar 26 #20
eggplant Mar 26 #23
janterry Mar 26 #24
ck4829 Mar 26 #25
LizBeth Mar 26 #30
TheFourthMind Mar 26 #31

Response to alp227 (Original post)

Wed Mar 25, 2020, 05:10 PM

1. The issue that complicates things is that the transgender school athletes,

unlike Olympic athletes, can compete as girls without undergoing physical transitioning -- that is, without hormone treatment. So not only do they have a male bone structure, but they have high testosterone and more muscles than cis-females. How is this fair to cis-female athletes?

From the second link:

Both transgender runners have won state championships and the plaintiffs contend that cisgender girls are at a disadvantage. They argue transgender girls are displacing girls who are cisgender, denying the cisgender girls spots in postseason races. Not competing at those events could prevent the cisgender girls from showcasing their talent in front of college coaches or competing against higher level competition.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #1)

Wed Mar 25, 2020, 05:17 PM

2. Maybe the issue is people having to be good at athletics to go to college.

Just gonna be honest here:

How many people would be as upset as they are about this if it did not impact scholarship opportunities? Then it'd just be about the game/sport -- competing and having fun.

That's not what high school sports are about now, and that's what's wrong with the system, at least in my mind.

Not letting trans girls play on girls teams/participate in girls events.

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Response to moriah (Reply #2)

Wed Mar 25, 2020, 05:22 PM

3. I remember when there were few sport opportunities for girls

Mostly, all of the teams were for boys.

I don't know what the answer is, for trans athletes. But competing against biological girls, and disadvantaging girls athletics, is not a solution I endorse. And, fwiw, (for me) I don't care one bit about scholarships.

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Response to janterry (Reply #3)

Thu Mar 26, 2020, 12:19 PM

27. +1000

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Response to moriah (Reply #2)

Wed Mar 25, 2020, 05:28 PM

4. That's true. This is very much about college acceptances and scholarships.

And that's what Title 9 is about, too -- making sure girls and women have equal access to these opportunities.

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Response to moriah (Reply #2)

Wed Mar 25, 2020, 05:28 PM

5. I think it's having a level playing field

For most, high school is as far as they get in sports. So winning or placing in a regional or state tourney is the pinnacle for many excellent athletes. It is it’s own reward, not the scholarship or the college acceptance. It’s not so much about having fun, very kumbaya, but about fair play and healthy competition.

Then for those who are good enough for college sports, it is unfair to be bumped down out of the running by those competing with an advantage.

It is a tricky issue, and there have been several heated threads on DU about this topic.

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Response to moriah (Reply #2)

Wed Mar 25, 2020, 10:35 PM

16. There are thousands and thousands of Division III

...college athletes who get no sports scholarship money, so it is not solely about sports scholarships.

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Response to 3catwoman3 (Reply #16)

Thu Mar 26, 2020, 10:01 AM

18. You're right it is much more basic than that.

Parents are very caught up in who is the captain and who wins end of season awards long before they are competing for scholarships. They are very passionate.

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Response to moriah (Reply #2)

Thu Mar 26, 2020, 07:56 AM

17. Well...

that and the complete favoritism shown to athletics around the country. I used to work at a private school, and let me tell you, if you were a male and not interested in any athletics, you had pretty much nothing to do outside of class. The females had more to do other than athletics, they even had more choices when it came to doing something athletic. The end result is that you have basically two choices: try to be an athlete, or be a second class student. Anyone who has been in the halls of a school knows that the students, and even the faculty, are preferential to the jocks. I mean, they bring 'glory' to their school, they 'represent' the 'best of our student body' (what a crock! When I was in school, the jocks were the most evil children I had ever seen. They got away with 'murder' as well thanks to their preferential status). The fact that there are hundreds of scholarships for sciences, and thousands of scholarships for sports... well you figure it out. Trans kids have enough trouble in life without being forced to maintain such a status quo thanks to this jocular attitude. Now, once we stop really really really praising brawn over brains, all of this might be addressed with more reason, but until than happens... well, we end up with Trump, we end up with McConnell, we end up a bunch of BGFJs (Big Dumb Frat Jocks) running the show (regardless of their gender identity). Hell, we end up with Corvid, thanks to a bunch of preening, d**k waving 'tough guys' who think they can personally fight it, and then act like only the 'weak' will get it anyway.

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Response to OldBaldy1701E (Reply #17)

Thu Mar 26, 2020, 10:03 AM

19. Athletic prep schools are a thing now

I imagine your experience is increasingly common as private schools increasingly become "prep" schools for wealthy athletes.

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Response to OldBaldy1701E (Reply #17)

Thu Mar 26, 2020, 12:24 PM

28. Sports programs for high schools should have been eliminated long ago.

Deferential, I think you meant. I agree with you, for the record.

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Response to moriah (Reply #2)

Thu Mar 26, 2020, 01:16 PM

29. Competitive sport at that age can be 4 or 5 hours a day of work. It is not about fun.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #1)

Wed Mar 25, 2020, 05:38 PM

6. I agree with you. And its happened with other sports too.

After years of trying to open opportunities to female athletes, this is yet another roadblock. If all you've done is identify as a female and nothing else, i'm sorry, but no, you shouldnt be allowed to compete with the other girls

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Response to oldsoftie (Reply #6)

Wed Mar 25, 2020, 06:27 PM

9. "if all you've done"

Sorry, but that is obnoxiously trivializing the incredibly difficult process of publicly identifying oneself as transgender.

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Response to eggplant (Reply #9)

Wed Mar 25, 2020, 06:32 PM

11. it is not, and you are really missing the point.

I don't know why, either. Care to explain your reasoning here?

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Response to eggplant (Reply #9)

Wed Mar 25, 2020, 06:33 PM

12. You've made a decision to make what you've known inside, public. Not an easy decision, no.

But if your physical makeup hasnt changed, then it is simply not fair. You'd still have the advantages of the male body. It wouldnt be fair in basketball, wrestling, soccer. etc. Sorry, its just not right for all the other girls.

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Response to eggplant (Reply #9)

Thu Mar 26, 2020, 10:38 AM

22. I don't think it's meant to be

Only people who have experienced it can really know what it's like to "come out".

But when it comes to sports, physiology and hormones are a major factor. And from a hormonal point of view, someone who is secreting significant amounts of testosterone, in my opinion, should not be competing with those who primarily secrete estrogen.

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Wed Mar 25, 2020, 06:15 PM

7. How about

The disadvantages to trans Men that lose to cis men? Nobody brings that issue up.

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Response to I_UndergroundPanther (Reply #7)

Wed Mar 25, 2020, 06:19 PM

8. no one cares about a guy

being beat up....

but yeah a cis girl getting pounded to a bloody pulp in boxing/wrestling contact sports does not look good

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Response to I_UndergroundPanther (Reply #7)

Wed Mar 25, 2020, 06:28 PM

10. Exactly.

What about cis girls with no athletic ability? Who will speak up for their interests?

This whole thing is just transphobia, plain and simple.

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Response to eggplant (Reply #10)

Wed Mar 25, 2020, 06:34 PM

13. This is about top female athletes who lose spots in major competitions

to trans females who still have hormonally male bodies.

This doesn't happen in the Olympics because of the hormonal transition requirements.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #13)

Wed Mar 25, 2020, 08:28 PM

14. Well said

Fairness would dictate following the IOC rules in this area.

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Response to I_UndergroundPanther (Reply #7)

Thu Mar 26, 2020, 10:16 AM

21. Third gender sports

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Response to ck4829 (Reply #21)

Thu Mar 26, 2020, 12:01 PM

26. Good idea if the transphobia gets under control

Our human rights are being undermined still.

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Wed Mar 25, 2020, 09:30 PM

15. I'm very Liberal and support LGBTQ, I'm fine with all of it.

Everyone should have equal rights. But, I DO NOT support transgender males (born male) competing against cis females (born female) athletically. It's just not fair, it's not equal rights, it's a born advantage.

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Response to OverBurn (Reply #15)

Thu Mar 26, 2020, 10:16 AM

20. We need 'third gender' sports

The idea that gender exists as a male/female dichotomy is not something in nature, it's something we socially fabricated.

Nature is filled with morphs, eusociality, sex changing, and other things that certainly do not reflect a gender binary.

If the media and athletics just swallowed this pill and allowed this, they'd also get a lot of money. I think there would actually be a lot of support for something like this.

And this way, we don't exclude transgender athletes and they're not made invisible, trans-female and trans-male athletes as well as non-binary athletes would get a chance to shine, it would be a boon to medicine that involved non-binary/transgender medical needs and sports medicine, and it would reflect how human gender and sexuality actually are.

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Response to ck4829 (Reply #20)

Thu Mar 26, 2020, 11:33 AM

23. So, basically "separate but equal."

If you made this same suggestion using race instead of gender (an equally fluid concept) you would be thrown out of here in a second. What makes gender different?

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Response to eggplant (Reply #23)

Thu Mar 26, 2020, 11:41 AM

24. We already do this with sex

Mens vs. womens sports

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Response to eggplant (Reply #23)

Thu Mar 26, 2020, 11:43 AM

25. So, eliminate gender from sports entirely? That is something I'm also open to.

That would be true equality.

The system is archaic, but I'm just working from within it like Fabianism. I think it's what we'd eventually reach.

Honestly, with today's technology, a sort of 'weight class' or 'skill system' regardless of gender would serve everyone far better.

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Thu Mar 26, 2020, 01:24 PM

30. Might as well not have male and female sports then. If male bodied are allowed to compete against

female bodied, then why have a division at all? It makes no sense and there should be no sex classification in sport.

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Thu Mar 26, 2020, 03:36 PM

31. Don't Treat US Justice Department As Intelligent. n/t

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