Girls sue to block participation of transgender athletes
Source: ABC News
HARTFORD, Conn. -- The families of three female high school runners filed a federal lawsuit Wednesday seeking to block transgender athletes in Connecticut from participating in girls sports.
"Forcing them to compete against boys isn’t fair, shatters their dreams, and destroys their athletic opportunities,” attorney Christiana Holcomb said in a news release. “Having separate boys’ and girls’ sports has always been based on biological differences, not what people believe about their gender, because those differences matter for fair competition.
“And forcing girls to be spectators in their own sports is completely at odds with Title IX, a federal law designed to create equal opportunities for women in education and athletics,” Holcomb said. "Connecticut’s policy violates that law and reverses nearly 50 years of advances for women.”
The lawsuit centers on two transgender sprinters, Terry Miller and Andraya Yearwood, who have frequently outperformed their cisgender competitors. The two seniors have combined to win 15 girls state indoor or outdoor championship races since 2017, according to the lawsuit.
The three plaintiffs have competed directly against them, almost always losing to Miller and usually behind Yearwood. Mitchell finished third in the 2019 state championship in the girls 55-meter indoor track competition behind Miller and Yearwood.
Read more: https://abcnews.go.com/Sports/wireStory/girls-sue-block-participation-transgender-athletes-68941543?cid=clicksource_4380645_2_heads_hero_live_twopack_hed
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MontanaMama
(23,285 posts)I never considered something like this happening.
killaphill
(212 posts)This is the type of thing these athletes will have to put up as we undergo the cultural and generational shift toward full acceptance of transgender athletes. These young women are in fact women, and should be able to compete as such. My assumption is that this lawsuit is being pushed by parents, and not of the athletes who are supposed aggrieved.
alittlelark
(18,888 posts)Men are physically much stronger than women (there is variance......). Testosterone just does that. It would be profoundly Unfair to allow a hormonally male competitor in a field of hormonal females. Not sure what to do about it, but wiser minds than mine will figure it out.
iluvtennis
(19,815 posts)
whathehell
(29,023 posts)It is an unfair matchup.
Tumbulu
(6,268 posts)why in the world would Trans kids do this anyway?
ChubbyStar
(3,191 posts)Follow the yellow brick road......
Buzz cook
(2,471 posts)You're comparing cis gender males to cis gender females.
The comparison between cis gender female athletes with trans gender athletes is not the same. Frequently trans female athletes will have lower testosterone than their cis gendered competition.
As part of their transition trans females take hormones which lower testosterone and decrease bone density and muscle mass.
A trans athlete has to be on those hormones for a set period of time before competing.
While its easy to think of a trans athlete as a man with tits, that is not the case.
The IOC and other sports organizations now allow trans athletes and the regulate them. I would suggest they did that after studying the science involved.
Tumbulu
(6,268 posts)Which are not being followed at a high school setting.
And so, that is not correct.
Adult Trans athletes have rules and regulations. But not at the high school level.
pnwmom
(108,950 posts)In Connecticut it isn't true that "a trans athlete has to be on hormones for a set period of time before competing."
Buzz cook
(2,471 posts)Are not taking hormones.
This is the interesting quote though.
The two seniors have combined to win 15 girls state indoor or outdoor championship races since 2017, according to the lawsuit.
The three plaintiffs have competed directly against them, almost always losing to Miller and usually behind Yearwood. Mitchell finished third in the 2019 state championship in the girls 55-meter indoor track competition behind Miller and Yearwood.
In other words the cis athletes do beat the trans athletes some times. If this were an insurmountable obstacle, by definition, they would never beat the trans athletes.
How well do these trans athlwtws fare in state wide competition? Why guess what, here they are.
https://www.athletic.net/TrackAndField/Connecticut/
You'll notice only one of those trans athletes is in the top and then in only one event. The 55 meter.
I've seen these girls before. Their story was part of a trans phobic youtube video demanding that trans athletes be band from competition. It was obvious pap there. Here it is less obvious because its a pure appeal to emotion with no evidence to push back against.
pnwmom
(108,950 posts)Soule, a Glastonbury High School junior, believes the Connecticut Interscholastic Athletic Conference (CIAC) policy that allows transgender girls to compete in girls’ sports without any hormone treatment is unfair.
That sense of injustice is at the heart of the complaint Soule and two other girls filed with the U.S. Department of Education’s Office of Civil Rights in June arguing that their Title IX rights have been violated by a policy that they say pits girls against athletes who are biologically male despite their female gender identity. They contend the situation has robbed them of top finishes and possibly college scholarships.
SNIP
“I respect these transgender athletes, and I understand that they are just following CIAC policy. But at the same time, it is demoralizing and frustrating for me and for other girls,” Selina said in a recent email. “No matter how hard I try, I’ll never be able to be competitive with someone who’s biologically a male … No amount of practice and determination will ever get me or other girls to a place where we will have a fair chance to win. But the CIAC doesn’t seem to care.”
SNIP
In a state that requires high schools to allow transgender girls to play sports with girls even if they have not had hormone therapy, Lopiano said, the challenge is how to do that fairly.
https://www.ctpost.com/local/article/Girls-sue-to-block-transgender-athletes-from-15051468.php
HARTFORD — Three female high-school track competitors filed a federal lawsuit Wednesday challenging a Connecticut Interscholastic Athletic Conference policy that allows transgender students to compete in girls’ athletic events.
Selina Soule, Alanna Smith, and Chelsea Mitchell said the policy has resulted in “biological boys” beating them at competitive track events and denying them opportunities to compete at higher levels.
SNIP
Speaking at a state Capitol press conference, Holcomb said that since 2017 when the CIAC first implemented the policy, two athletes who are “biologically male” have “taken 15 women’s state championship titles” that were previously held by nine different girls. The complaint says the girls, as a result, have been denied 85 opportunities to participate in higher-level competition between 2017 and 2019.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)There are testosterone limits in women's athletics, which apply to all women athletes.
Wiser minds actually have applied a lot of thought to it, as this issue comes up in international athletics and the Olympics.
To compete as a "woman" in international sports is much more complicated than many here assume.
SoCalNative
(4,613 posts)are taking hormone blockers then testosterone doesn't enter into the equation.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)And that is what is done under current rules in some sports.
Bradical79
(4,490 posts)Their hormone levels would be checked, and so on. They wouldn't be "hormonaly male". At least that's how it worked last time I read about similar conplaints.
janterry
(4,429 posts)The rule in several states is simply 'self-identification'. That's true in HS sports here in Vermont.
From what I've read, the science about this is still not very good. Part of the problem is that athletes that have gone through male puberty have distinct advantages. But, again, the science is still trying to sort all of this out.
I'm very supportive of Title IX and very concerned.
pnwmom
(108,950 posts)That phrase could mean almost anything -- including "social transitioning."
https://www.plannedparenthood.org/learn/gender-identity/transgender/what-do-i-need-know-about-transitioning
How do transgender people transition?
There are two different types of transition, or ways to affirm your gender: social transition and medical transition.
Social transitioning may include:
coming out to your friends and family as transgender
asking people to use pronouns (she/her, he/him, they/them) that match your gender identity
going by a different name
dressing/grooming in ways that match your gender identity
SNIP
Does everyone who is transgender decide to transition?
No, not all transgender people transition. For those who do, not all transition in the same way. Some may transition socially and not medically. Some may transition medically by doing one or only a few of the procedures listed above. Some may take hormones and decide not to have any surgeries, or just choose one kind of surgery and none of the others.
There are many reasons for the differences in how people transition. These medical procedures can be very expensive, which means that not everyone can afford them. Some transgender people may have health insurance that covers transition-related procedures, and some may not. And finally, but most importantly — not all trans people want all of the available medical procedures.
Regardless of whether a transgender person chooses to transition and how they choose to do it, they're no more “real” than other trans people who don’t transition. Someone’s gender identity should always be respected no matter how they decide to transition socially or medically.
killaphill
(212 posts)Give details? What kind of "details" do you want? These young women are under no obligation to provide details of their transition, and quite frankly any details are no one's business but their own.
Connecticut state law (as well as the laws in 16 other states) are quite clear. Transgender athletes compete without restriction. As it should be.
pnwmom
(108,950 posts)then it means they still have all the advantages of a male body in competition with a female's.
If they have been taking hormones for a certain period of time, that has an effect on muscle mass and strength that mitigates the advantage.
killaphill
(212 posts)None. Lets make this clear. If someone identifies as a female, then they are a female. Period. Full stop. And should be able to compete as such. At least in high school, which is the law in this case.
pnwmom
(108,950 posts)https://www.plannedparenthood.org/learn/gender-identity/transgender/what-do-i-need-know-about-transitioning
How do transgender people transition?
There are two different types of transition, or ways to affirm your gender: social transition and medical transition.
Social transitioning may include:
coming out to your friends and family as transgender
asking people to use pronouns (she/her, he/him, they/them) that match your gender identity
going by a different name
dressing/grooming in ways that match your gender identity
SNIP
Does everyone who is transgender decide to transition?
No, not all transgender people transition. For those who do, not all transition in the same way. Some may transition socially and not medically. Some may transition medically by doing one or only a few of the procedures listed above. Some may take hormones and decide not to have any surgeries, or just choose one kind of surgery and none of the others.
There are many reasons for the differences in how people transition. These medical procedures can be very expensive, which means that not everyone can afford them. Some transgender people may have health insurance that covers transition-related procedures, and some may not. And finally, but most importantly — not all trans people want all of the available medical procedures.
Regardless of whether a transgender person chooses to transition and how they choose to do it, they're no more “real” than other trans people who don’t transition. Someone’s gender identity should always be respected no matter how they decide to transition socially or medically.
killaphill
(212 posts)n/t
pnwmom
(108,950 posts)They also recognize the distinction between social transitioning and medical transitioning, and the fact that it is a PERSONAL decision which steps, if any, to take.
https://transcare.ucsf.edu/transition-roadmap
Gender transition is a very private, personal, and individualized process. In general the first step is to explore your gender identity. This can include any combination of internal self-reflection, connecting with community and support groups, or working with a therapist who has expertise in gender identity issues. This process could take anywhere from months to years.
SNIP
Social Transition
Presenting in public part- or full-time in your identified gender, may include:
Changing your wardrobe or hair style
Packing (using a penile prosthesis to give a masculine genital contour)
Tucking (placing the testes into the inguinal canal, held in place with tight underwear or a garment called a gaff, to give a feminine genital contour)
Binding (using a tight chest garment to flatten breasts and give a masculine chest contour)
Breast, hip, or buttock prostheses (inserts into clothing or bra to augment breast, hip, or buttock size)
Coming out to spouse, partner(s), children, friends, family, classmates, coworkers, community members
Changing your legal documents to reflect your chosen name, gender identity, and pronoun used
Medical Transition
Hormone therapy
Chest, face, genital, or other gender affirming surgeries
Hair removal (face, body, in some cases genital hair removal if preparing for surgery)
Speech therapy
Fertility preservation (sperm/egg storage)
killaphill
(212 posts)"Specifically targeting transgender girls in sport continues the long history of gender discrimination and stereotyping that has hindered the advancement of all women in sport. This type of sex discrimination is a dangerous starting point for further discrimination of all women and girls in athletics at every level of play."
Your requirement for "transition tests" is quite frankly a bit offensive.
pnwmom
(108,950 posts)before they can compete against cis women.
https://ctmirror.org/2019/07/22/transgender-issues-polarizes-womens-advocates-a-conundrum/
Experts in girls’ sports and Title IX, the federal law that requires that women have equal access to sports, believe Soule and other cisgender athletes could have a valid complaint. They point out that both the NCAA and the Olympic Committee require transgender women to receive hormone treatment for at least a year and be tested for testosterone levels. The CIAC does not require either.
“I don’t know of a woman athlete who doesn’t want trans girls to be treated fairly,” said Donna Lopiano, who led the Women’s Sports Foundation for 15 years and now runs a Shelton-based consulting firm that works with clients on Title IX and other sports management issues. “But the cost of treating her fairly should not come at the cost of discriminating against a biologically-female-at birth woman.”
killaphill
(212 posts)"transathlete is a resource for students, athletes, coaches, and administrators to find information about trans inclusion in athletics at various levels of play. This site pulls together existing information in one central location, and breaks down information into easy-to-reference areas to help you find what you need."
And Transathlete's position is very clear (and note, "affirmed" gender):
While policies vary by state and school district, the recommendation for K-12 inclusion of transgender students is for transgender youth to be allowed to play sports in their affirmed gender.
The Transgender Law & Policy Institute's document, Guidelines for Creating Policies for Transgender Children in Recreational Sports, says,
"All young people should have the opportunity to play recreational sports and have their personal dignity respected. Transgender young people are no different. In fact, because transgender young people often must overcome significant stigma and challenges, it would be particularly harmful to exclude them from the significant physical, mental and social benefits that young people gain by playing recreational sports. The impact of such discrimination can be severe and can cause lifelong harm. In contrast, permitting transgender children and youth to participate in recreational sports in their affirmed gender can provide an enormous boost to their self-confidence and self-esteem and provide them with positive experiences that will help them in all other areas of their lives."
dhol82
(9,351 posts)Does she now identify as male? I doubt it.
Jim__
(14,056 posts)This article is a year old. She may have changed her position since then.
From Bleacher Report:
The former tennis star wrote an op-ed in the Sunday Times detailing why she feels the practice is unfair.
"It's insane and it's cheating. I am happy to address a transgender woman in whatever form she prefers, but I would not be happy to compete against her. It would not be fair," Navratilova wrote (h/t Frances Perraudin of the Guardian).
The 62-year-old came out in 1981 and has been a gay rights activist after her playing career, but she thinks men would force their way into women's competitions if transgender women are allowed to compete.
we can do it
(12,166 posts)elias7
(3,990 posts)Dr. Strange
(25,915 posts)then why segregate sports on the basis of sex?
Loki Liesmith
(4,602 posts)pnwmom
(108,950 posts)Loki Liesmith
(4,602 posts)And also wrong
PoindexterOglethorpe
(25,809 posts)won't change whatever combination of X and Y chromosomes you have.
Tumbulu
(6,268 posts)what a preposterous thing to post.
we can do it
(12,166 posts)biological females, just tough shit? Wow.
Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)Make a difference.
I was a competitive powelifter fir years. In women, thr "Open" competitots (non-drug tested) ALWAYS had better results than "Tested".
Same in men.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)I don't think people understand the role of hormone limits in sport.
Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)Slap 5 plates on the bar, and bench press more than the current woman's world record.
So could 15 other guys in the gym I work out at.
None of would even be competetive in the men's elite group. I am a full 150 lbs short of that level.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)janterry
(4,429 posts)have a 'disorder of sexual development' (dx of DSD)
(like Caster Semenya).
That magnitude of testosterone does not occur naturally in women.
(just adding to what you are writing. I listened to an endocrinologist discussing this).
ETA: Just read your other post - yes, or they are doping illegally. This is spot-on
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)You seem to be unaware that this is not a "new" thing, and that neutral hormonal limits are applied to women athletes, regardless of whether they are cis or trans, in international sports.
The Mouth
(3,140 posts)You are entitled to your opinion, but your facts flat out wrong.
eggplant
(3,906 posts)"all the advantages of a male body" is meaningless. Men and women run the gamut for physical fitness and such. I'm sure there are lots of male students that these female plaintiffs could easily best in the sport of their choice.
Dr. Strange
(25,915 posts)If there is no "advantage of a male body", then the question remains: why segregate sports on the basis of sex?
There is a spectrum for men and women, yes. But it's not the SAME. Here's a list of US high school students who have run a sub-4:00 mile: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_American_high_school_students_who_have_run_a_four-minute_mile#Sub-four-minute_mile_runs_by_U.S._high_school_students
(That's just US, and only high school students.) According to this page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four-minute_mile), over 1400 hundred athletes have broken the 4:00 mile. The fastest mile time for a woman is 4:12.33.
The key here is: there is a spectrum for both male and female. But the tail end (where the athletes are) is not located at the same spot. There really does appear to be an objective biological difference.
That's probably true--but can these female athletes best the male students at the tail end? When the competition involves a shot at college scholarships, these differences become really important. I don't doubt that the top female runners can beat some of the male students; I don't think they can beat the top male runners on the track team.
pnwmom
(108,950 posts)jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Athletics matches up the people at the skinny end of the curve against one another, in both genders.
I'm sure these girls could outrun me, but I'm not trying to win a state championship.
Mosby
(16,247 posts)Claim whatever gender you want, but it you want to compete as a woman, then you can't have the testosterone levels of a man. It's only fair.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/01/sports/caster-semenya-loses.html
killaphill
(212 posts)We're talking about high school......
Do you want to deny transgender athletes the ability to compete based on "transition tests"? Thats what is being implied. And contrary to Connecticut state law.
Mosby
(16,247 posts)And in this situation the women's rights should prevail over transgender rights.
It's simply not fair for girls to compete with boys who want to transition, frankly it's sort of a form of misogyny.
Don't see this happening in reverse, do you?
killaphill
(212 posts)That is exactly what is happening! Do you not think transgender girls are really girls?
Mosby
(16,247 posts)Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)They psychologically IDENTIFY as female, but anatomically, cellularly, and hormonally, they are still male and their bodies have all the male advantages.
Medical procedures can reverse that, BUT if they are not under medical care to change it, they have all the physical advantages of males.
College scholarships are competitive. Quit acting like this is fucking Pop Warner football...its not.
Croney
(4,656 posts)I wonder if there are any girls who transitioned, and want to play as boys. If so, maybe they're not in the news because they're not winning any races.
Mosby
(16,247 posts)As he transitions from female to male.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/early-lead/wp/2018/02/25/transgender-wrestler-mack-beggs-wins-second-texas-state-girls-championship/
Dr. Strange
(25,915 posts)I'm not comfortable with cis females having to compete with trans females, but a female transitioning to male who is begging (so to speak) to compete against males should be allowed to. I don't think it would put the cis male athletes at a disadvantage, but even if it did, males have had plenty of opportunities to compete in sports.
Tumbulu
(6,268 posts)pnwmom
(108,950 posts)jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Athletes who have made it to the Olympics have, in most instances, reached the pinnacle of their career. To compete in the Olympics is what they have been aiming for.
Athletes who compete at the highest levels of high school athletics often have the rest of their lives hanging in the balance, as they attempt to qualify for academic scholarships to colleges which they may not be able to attend otherwise.
There is much more at stake in high school athletics than there is in the Olympics. Any Olympian can secure a career in, for example, coaching the sport in which they qualified. Third place in the state finals, not so much. But it can make the difference between over $100,000 in scholarship awards or not.
DonaldsRump
(7,715 posts)A bit off the point you're making, but an Olympic medal, particularly gold, has huge value for endorsements for some sports (e.g., Mary Lou Retton, 1980 US Ice Hockey Team, Usain Bolt, Norwegian x-country skiiers in Norway, Alpine medalists worldwide). Another thing I didn't realize is that many medalists get cash compensation for their medal, including the US.
https://www.fool.com/investing/2016/08/18/what-is-a-gold-medal-worth-to-olympic-athletes.aspx
That doesn't diminish your point that high school athletics and the competition for scholarships is astounding (seeing it myself with my family).
More relevant to the topic at hand, here is a link to the complaint filed on behalf of the Connecticut athletes: http://www.adfmedia.org/files/SouleComplaintOCR.pdf
(note: this links to the very conservative organization that filed the complaint.)
elias7
(3,990 posts)No one is denying anyone the right to compete. People are looking for a fair playing field and an equitable solution to a complex problem. Hugh school sports can be serious business, they are not some sort of rec leagues. The argument is valid and doesn’t get invalidate$ by saying, “no it’s not”.
Proud Liberal Dem
(24,384 posts)
lark
(23,058 posts)Without those checks, it's entirely UNFAIR to the girls competing, even at the high school level. My daughter was a top athlete and she earned it by training all the time, working her tail off. Even as strong as she was, guys were still stronger and faster.
msongs
(67,336 posts)killaphill
(212 posts)When it comes to for instance.... basketball. Thats just a fact of life. Some people are larger and stronger than others.
pnwmom
(108,950 posts)And there's no indication in the article that the two athletes have physically transitioned.
I agree with what you are saying. I don’t think biological males with high levels of testosterone should be competing against biological women, unless they’ve been medically transitioning. Not just socially.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)(btw: welcome back...)
killaphill
(212 posts)Some people are just more athletic than others. Should I sue the basketball coach because a player six inches taller than me made the team and I didn't?
christx30
(6,241 posts)didn’t start hormone replacement, and could out bench you, and she made the team team instead of you, I’d say that puts Randy (Heather) at a clear unfair advantage over you, if you’re trying to compete for a single spot on a team. It could mean the difference between getting a scholarship or not.
at140
(6,110 posts)but the same athlete would not have a chance against say Tiger Woods.
Mike Nelson
(9,940 posts)... bravo to the courageous young women and men that are able to participate in sports during a very challenging time in their lives. I don't think they are doing this to gain an advantage in high school sports - they have the right to try-out and participate, like everyone else. My personal belief is that each individual case should be evaluated - with parents, educational staff, and doctors - about the appropriate time to select and participate in a sport. It's a right - everyone gets to try-out and participate.
pnwmom
(108,950 posts)Because that appears to be the issue.
https://ctmirror.org/2019/07/22/transgender-issues-polarizes-womens-advocates-a-conundrum/
Experts in girls’ sports and Title IX, the federal law that requires that women have equal access to sports, believe Soule and other cisgender athletes could have a valid complaint. They point out that both the NCAA and the Olympic Committee require transgender women to receive hormone treatment for at least a year and be tested for testosterone levels. The CIAC does not require either.
“I don’t know of a woman athlete who doesn’t want trans girls to be treated fairly,” said Donna Lopiano, who led the Women’s Sports Foundation for 15 years and now runs a Shelton-based consulting firm that works with clients on Title IX and other sports management issues. “But the cost of treating her fairly should not come at the cost of discriminating against a biologically-female-at birth woman.”
killaphill
(212 posts)Its your contention that a HIGH SCHOOL athlete, who happens to be Transgender, should be MANDATED to undergo expensive hormone treatments before they compete, which many can't even afford. And if they can't afford it, well thats tough. You can watch from the sidelines.
Well... this is a very progressive position (insert eye roll)
Loki Liesmith
(4,602 posts)And I don’t care.
pnwmom
(108,950 posts)Without hormone treatments, they can compete with the boys. With hormones, they can compete with the girls.
eggplant
(3,906 posts)Where do you draw the line?
Should a transgender girl who is small and not terribly fit be allowed to compete and lose?
pnwmom
(108,950 posts)even if she has a hormone imbalance.
I think the Olympics and the NCAA have drawn the line correctly.
janterry
(4,429 posts)wouldn't occur unless the dx were a disorder of sexual development (DSD).
That much testosterone is way out of the range. I heard an endocrinologist trying to explain this on NPR a few months ago. I think people thought that the 'normative' range for women would somehow approach the range that occurs with men. It's so far beyond what would even be a female outlier -
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Cisgendered women who test over the limit for testosterone, or various other hormones and substances, cannot compete.
The reason does not matter.
This happens with regularity in international sports.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/01/sports/caster-semenya-loses.html
Female track athletes with naturally elevated levels of testosterone must decrease the hormone to participate in certain races at major competitions like the Olympics, the highest court in international sports said Wednesday in a landmark ruling amid the pitched debate over who can compete in women’s events.
The decision was a defeat for Caster Semenya, a two-time Olympic champion at 800 meters from South Africa, who had challenged proposed limits placed on female athletes with naturally elevated levels of the muscle-building hormone testosterone.
Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)Less than ideal, but fair.
Mike Nelson
(9,940 posts)I understand the NCAA and Olympics... but this is high school. Yes, it's possible a young woman or man could participate in a sport before the hormone requirement. I think the sports decision should be individualized - and private.
pnwmom
(108,950 posts)The cis girls are concerned that they could be denied college scholarships that they might otherwise be eligible for -- if they weren't competing against trans girls with male hormones and muscle mass. One girl, for example, wasn't able to compete in some post-season event because only the eight top people went on . . . and she was number 9. The top two winners were the trans girls.
eggplant
(3,906 posts)The cis girls could be just as concerned that they could be denied college scholarships that they might otherwise be eligible for -- if they weren't competing against OTHER CIS girls who have bodies even more suited to their chosen sport.
pnwmom
(108,950 posts)all of the cis girls except 6 of them -- and she only needed to be in the top 8. But the trans girls were 2 of the 8.
If a trans girl wants to compete -- and she isn't on hormones -- she always has the option to compete with the boys.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/01/sports/caster-semenya-loses.html
Female track athletes with naturally elevated levels of testosterone must decrease the hormone to participate in certain races at major competitions like the Olympics, the highest court in international sports said Wednesday in a landmark ruling amid the pitched debate over who can compete in women’s events.
The decision was a defeat for Caster Semenya, a two-time Olympic champion at 800 meters from South Africa, who had challenged proposed limits placed on female athletes with naturally elevated levels of the muscle-building hormone testosterone.
YOHABLO
(7,358 posts)elias7
(3,990 posts)Are you doing that on purpose?
MenloParque
(512 posts)We have biological male non-transitioning high school students now playing girls field hockey. 3 freshman boys have gained varsity spots on a girls field hockey team with more gaining interest. Yes, these boys have taken starting spots away from girls...but the parents are ok with this as we are in a very diverse area. I do feel sorry for one girl who had a scholarship revoked due to losing her starting spot. I am fine with this as girls are now joining boys wrestling and football teams. Fair is fair.
pnwmom
(108,950 posts)playing on a girls team, so she lost her starting spot.
MenloParque
(512 posts)Since she was a high scorer in the midfield position, her points average dropped since she was no longer the top scorer. I have to learn to be ok with this since girls are playing on boys teams in the SF BAY.
Tumbulu
(6,268 posts)I am not.
eilen
(4,950 posts)Yeah, I hope those girls win their suit.
Maybe some of you who disagree should take a human development class. Understand that biological sex determines physical development at a very young age with increases in muscle mass, lung capacity genetically determined in men. Unless they started hormonal therapy in their toddler years, they have a biological physical advantage.
pnwmom
(108,950 posts)eilen
(4,950 posts)
n/t
KayF
(1,345 posts)so why should sports remain divided by male/female? Why not have transgender leagues?
Dr. Strange
(25,915 posts)I don't think there are enough transgender athletes to have a third category for sports, but the bigger issue is that sports aren't segregated based on gender--only on sex. The logic being that biological sex causes a fundamental difference in male and female outcomes. (At least in most sports.)
One problem with bringing in gender is what happens, for example, with a Gender fluid athlete who identifies as male during one track meet and female in another? Maybe not a big deal for the athlete, but it could create havoc in terms of qualifying for state championships, and maybe even affect other teams differently.
Bradical79
(4,490 posts)It's more difficult to classify than you'd think. A pretty good Twitter thread giving a basic overview of complications:
Link to tweet
?s=20
pnwmom
(108,950 posts)Proud Liberal Dem
(24,384 posts)Because Trans people need to be excluded?
mr_lebowski
(33,643 posts)If were going to let trans women compete in cis sports, there needs to be some sort of compromise ... which a lot of people got together and agreed upon when it came to high level sports like the Olympics ...
All I see anyone really advocating for here is applying the same, seemingly not terribly controversial, regulations to lower level (but still potentially very important) athletics.
If you're not bent out shape about the Olympics having the rules they do ... I'm not sure I quite understand your argument here, frankly.
And allow me to expound slightly on my original thought that started this thread re: dying this proverbial hill.
You know what I think the most powerful argument has always been against the assholes of the world that want to limit LGBTQ+ rights?
Unfortunately it's really not 'because it's the right thing to do'. It's the simple argument that 'we/they are not freaking HURTING ANYONE, so why is it your damn business?!?' This argument has ended up winning the day ... now, what was unthinkable 20 years ago has happened ... gays and lesbians can get legally married across the USA.
There's more to be done esp. in employment discrimination, but I think mostly it'll come eventually.
Point is, the good guys have been consistently winning these debates and securing rights ... and that's mainly because enough people were convinced ... this kind of thing doesn't hurt anyone else.
Pushing for biological males to get to compete in sports with biological females ... does not meet that criteria. This 'feels unfair' to a lot of people. Like you're hurting others by demanding a 'right' that actually kinda borders on privileges if I may say so.
Pushing hard on this issue is not going to go over well, and it's likely to cause a backlash. And it's going to be that way among a lot of women, who frankly have, all along, been statistically more supportive of LGBTQ+ rights all along vs males.
Accepting the compromise available to them ... hormone tests ... is the smart ploy in situation, from a practical standpoint. Don't die on this proverbial hill, not yet anyway. There's more important battles to fight, IMHO. Don't risk turn an important group of allies against you.
Just MHO, fwiw.
Proud Liberal Dem
(24,384 posts)And it *is* exclusive. Trangender is NOT a "gender"
mr_lebowski
(33,643 posts)I'm arguing that a solution that's fair to cis-gendered females when it comes to sports ... needs to crafted and agreed upon. I think the hormone tests are at least reasonably fair.
If nothing else, it gives 'our side' a good argument that's not just 'let these biological males compete in biological women's sports ... because we're offended that you don't allow it!'. That's not a compelling argument. And there are essentially victims in this scenario. It's not a good look.
And people largely seem to understand that when it comes to the Olympics, so ... not sure why it's so egregious at the high school level ... given scholarships can hang in the balance.
We're not talking about community inter-murals here ... or middle school ... if we were, I'd be 100% with you 
Dr. Strange
(25,915 posts)I think sports is the one case where separate but equal has been an unequivocally good (and necessary) thing.
Doing away with the separation by sex would be far, far worse, I would think.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)If you want to eliminate “separate but equal” the entire problem arises from defining a category of “women’s competition” and trying to nearly fit people into that category with an objective rule.
Attempts to neatly divide persons into binary gender classifications will never succeed on some absolute basis.
However, for purposes of athletic competition, testosterone is a performance enhancing substance in many sports. That advantage could be eliminated by, for example, coming up with different sports in which that is not so. But in the sports we generally recognize, it is an undeniable fact that if you do not draw a line on hormone levels, then persons with highly elevated testosterone will win.
Get rid of “separate but equal” women’s sports, just have sports, and be done, is an entirely different conversation. There will be some remaining sports in which cis women will dominate, which is why in gymnastics, for example, men and women don’t do the same things.
But if your objection is to “separate but equal” you could have saved a lot of time in this thread by simply saying your opinion is to eliminate women’s sports.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Even cisgendered women are routinely disqualified if they test for high testosterone - and even if that is simply their own endocrine systems.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/01/sports/caster-semenya-loses.html
Female track athletes with naturally elevated levels of testosterone must decrease the hormone to participate in certain races at major competitions like the Olympics, the highest court in international sports said Wednesday in a landmark ruling amid the pitched debate over who can compete in women’s events.
The decision was a defeat for Caster Semenya, a two-time Olympic champion at 800 meters from South Africa, who had challenged proposed limits placed on female athletes with naturally elevated levels of the muscle-building hormone testosterone.
evertonfc
(1,713 posts)There is an advantage here. A male to female transgender would have a huge advantage in many female sports. Come on
JustABozoOnThisBus
(23,314 posts)... start pulling in university scholarships under Title 9.
Not so fast, Chelsea Manning!
There might be some applicable case law from Renee Richards vs US Tennis Assn in the mid '70's.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ren%C3%A9e_Richards
pnwmom
(108,950 posts)because she only placed #9. The top 8 went to the competition, and #'s 1 and 2 were the trans girls.
PoindexterOglethorpe
(25,809 posts)If you're transgender, you compete with other trans.
Otherwise, either compete according to your biological gender (the combination of X and Y chromosomes you have).
Or maybe everyone competes together, regardless of gender or whatever. People can simply be assigned to compete with another group that has their level of ability in that sport. Obviously, some sort of ability testing would need to happen, but that already occurs much of the time in many sports. You try out and you're good enough to make the team or you're not.
pnwmom
(108,950 posts)PoindexterOglethorpe
(25,809 posts)Maybe there would be men's teams, women's teams, and mixed-gender teams. It would depend on the sport. And think of it as the kind of rankings that happen in baseball, with major league, minor league, and non-affiliated teams.
That's how Ultimate Frisbee works. All three kinds of teams. But all men teams play other all men teams, all women teams play other all women teams. The mixed teams have a system that whoever currently controls the disk populates the field with whatever ratio of men to women they choose, and the other team matches.
They also have a system where at tournaments where individual players just show up, they are assigned to teams more or less randomly. The players are asked to rate themselves as to skill. I think it's a 1, 2, 3 rating, and I don't recall which is higher. The players are expected to be honest about their skill level.
Oh, another thing. It's self-refereed. Players are expected to be willing to call fouls on themselves.
Yeah, I know, this would never work at the professional level of any sport.
My younger son used to play Ultimate, which is why I know this stuff.
But back to your comment. Perhaps a number of women's sports would disappear. I hope not. Even though I myself am not much of a sports fan at all, I recognize there would be a loss. The underlying issue, especially at the pro level, is the "win at any cost" mentality. It's why there is so much cheating in certain sports. I'll simply reference the recent sign-stealing thing in baseball.
pnwmom
(108,950 posts)Last edited Thu Feb 13, 2020, 01:45 AM - Edit history (1)
And allowing trans girls to play with male bone structure and musculature -- and no hormones -- will put cis girls at a disadvantage.
PoindexterOglethorpe
(25,809 posts)Ultimate is a club sport, not one that has scholarships.
And I agree that allowing someone with a male bone structure and musculature, and perhaps male hormones, to play on a girls team, is highly unfair.
Which is why, in my unsophisticated opinion, biology perhaps should triumph. What are the X and Y chromosomes?
ChubbyStar
(3,191 posts)I think you both are brilliant!
PoindexterOglethorpe
(25,809 posts)Because I seem to almost never come into contact with anyone trans gender, I am probably oblivious to how many such are really out there. I will say that I keep on meeting parents who tell me about their trans son or daughter.
What I haven't a handle on is just how commonplace trans people are.
Another thing that comes to mind is perhaps there should be trans men teams and trans women teams. Again, I haven't a clue if there are enough trans people who are athletic enough to warrant those teams. Also, see my description above of how Ultimate Frisbee works.
JonLP24
(29,322 posts)I'm not sure they can field teams and who would they compete against?
ck4829
(35,020 posts)JonLP24
(29,322 posts)I don't think there are enough people to field transgender only teams. It is best to let them compete in whatever existing team sports depending on what the laws are.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)One would think that would be obvious. Unless they DO have an invisible fifth player, they aren't going to be able to have a transgender basketball team.
pnwmom
(108,950 posts)WestLosAngelesGal
(268 posts)Last edited Wed Feb 12, 2020, 11:08 PM - Edit history (1)
But this brings up memories of Bruce Jenner, Olympic gold medalist, long before he became Caitlyn Jenner. He was the motivational speaker for our company picnic and he was really a fine speaker who got lots of applause and was truly nice, mingling with the employees. I wonder what Jenner might think of this current competition situation...
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)This case is going to court. Experts will weigh in. A court will decide.
That's too much for some people to handle.
kelly1mm
(4,732 posts)
jayfish
(10,037 posts)kelly1mm
(4,732 posts)jayfish
(10,037 posts)pnwmom
(108,950 posts)of boys and trans girls. Great. Problem solved.
Dr. Strange
(25,915 posts)but I'm pretty sure that doing that at a public institution (high school or college) would violate Title IX.
Jose Garcia
(2,581 posts)elias7
(3,990 posts)Response to killaphill (Original post)
Name removed Message auto-removed
James48
(4,424 posts)I don’t know what to think!
I hope everyone can approach the issue with a sense of humor-
I know this one is going to be a tough nut to crack!
Captain Stern
(2,198 posts)Sex isn't the same as Gender, and Gender isn't the same as Sex.
A person with two 'x' chromosomes is a female. A person with one 'x', and one 'y' chromosome is a male. However, the chromosomal makeup of a person doesn't determine whether the are a man (boy) or a woman (girl).
Maybe it's just a matter of semantics. Maybe we should just have 'xx' divisions in sports, and 'xy' divisions in sports.
Or, maybe our sports competitions shouldn't take any of that into account at all.
For instance, Wimbledon could stop having two separate tournaments....they could just have one, and it would be open to all.
But, I think we should appreciate that if Wimbledon had been doing that for the last fifty years, the following folks would have ZERO Wimbledon championships combined:
Billie Jean King
Chris Evert
Martina Navratilova
Steffi Graff
Venus Williams
Serena Williams
questionseverything
(9,644 posts)n/t
ck4829
(35,020 posts)jberryhill
(62,444 posts)
pansypoo53219
(20,948 posts)mr_lebowski
(33,643 posts)Requiring a certain minimum amount of hormone therapy as req'd by the higher authorities like Olympic Committee seems like a very reasonable compromise to me. Even in High School. The stakes are actually fairly considerable. Perhaps even more so than the Olympics from an economic perspective, in certain circumstances.
Dying on this proverbial hill is also I suspect a rather poor choice. I would bet if polled, a large majority of Americans would take the same stand as I have, and would be very much resentful of the transgender community if they were to push very hard on this issue and insist on having their way. It would definitely cause a backlash among a great many people who are in 99% of other ways ... supportive.
ChubbyStar
(3,191 posts)For the record, I fully agree with you.
killaphill
(212 posts)Then you DONT 1000% support trans rights.
pnwmom
(108,950 posts)then she would be at no disadvantage playing on a boys' team.
Farmer-Rick
(10,126 posts)Olympic events.
Why? Because male hormones give women an advantage. No doubt about it. Just look at the doping scandals of East Germany.
"Female track athletes with naturally elevated levels of testosterone must decrease the hormone to participate in certain races at major competitions like the Olympics, the highest court in international sports said Wednesday in a landmark ruling amid the pitched debate over who can compete in women’s events.
The decision was a defeat for Caster Semenya, a two-time Olympic champion at 800 meters from South Africa, who had challenged proposed limits placed on female athletes with naturally elevated levels of the muscle-building hormone testosterone."
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/01/sports/caster-semenya-loses.html
It is not about them being transgender it is about the amount of male hormones in their system.
There are many schools who test student athletes for illegal drug abuse like cannabis or cocaine as part of anti drug campaigns. The supreme court had no problem with it. {Board of Education v. Earls, 536 U.S. 822 (2002), was a United States Supreme Court case in which the Court upheld the constitutionality of mandatory drug testing by public schools of students participating in extracurricular activities.}
Maybe they should test for more than just substance abuse.
It really seems like it would be unfair to cis girls to compete with females with excess male hormones.
djg21
(1,803 posts)Last edited Thu Feb 13, 2020, 12:40 PM - Edit history (1)
The current rules stipulate a maximum serum testosterone level of 10nmol/L but, from March, male-to-female athletes will be limited to 5nmol/L and will have to show it has been below the new threshold for 12 months before they are deemed eligible to compete.
. . . .
The current IOC guidelines, which set the testosterone threshold at 10nmol/L, have been in force since 2016. Prior to that, transgender athletes had to have undergone sex reassignment surgery as well as at least two years of hormone therapy.
According to the new UCI regulations "All transgender athletes wishing to compete in the category corresponding to their new gender" must make a request to a UCI medical manager at least six weeks before they intend to compete. The athlete’s eligibility will be decided by a panel of "three international experts independent of the UCI".
Those who have transitioned from male to female "must prove that the their serum testosterone level has been below 5 nmol/L for at least 12 months prior to the eligibility date". Once deemed eligible, they must keep within that threshold "for the entire time they compete in the Women category" and must undergo hormone tests using mass spectrometry.
Any breach of the regulations can be punished with anything from a "reprimand and warning" to "disqualification and a fine".
Sporting bodies such as the International Association of Athletics Federations (IAAF), have argued that females who have natural testosterone levels higher than the average healthy female (0.4 nmol/L to 2.0 nmol/L), and closer to the range of healthy male (7.0 nmol/L and 30 nmol/L), and whose androgen receptors can uptake the testosterone, have an unfair advantage over peers in their category. However, the basis of these findings have been disputed by some scientists.
https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/uci-halves-testosterone-threshold-for-transgender-riders/
This still doesn’t take into account cumulative effects of a lifetime of higher testosterone before a person begins the process of transitioning. There are physiology differences that result and cannot be undone by a year of hormone therapy. In sports like cycling, the fix may be easier — unisex fields, and prizes for top overall, top male, top female, top transgender athlete, etc.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)...the conditions under which the athlete had gone through puberty.
As you mention, the training benefit from previous hormonal levels doesn't magically reverse itself.
If, for example, you train as a weightlifter out of competition for years on steroids, and then get clean as you approach competition and testing, you still benefit from having used the steroids previously.
pnwmom
(108,950 posts)JonLP24
(29,322 posts)When in fact they face a lot of backlash. You should see bathroom bill topics if you think people are supportive of Trans people. Or you could read the comments to this Tweet.
Link to tweet
Also 99% of people aren't trans. Only .03 are so I couldn't care less what they think is best for them.
Proud Liberal Dem
(24,384 posts)And the way that you are talking is NOT supportive of Trans people/youth
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)There is nothing in the Olympics which compares to qualifying for a $100k+ scholarship to a top school.
The main thing the athletes get is a piece of metal on a ribbon.
High school athletes are playing for higher stakes in terms of the relative impact on their future lives.
Proud Liberal Dem
(24,384 posts)And Trans girls are as entitled to compete for them as Cis girls.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Setting limits on performance enhancing substances is not unfair to anyone.
And it does not matter whether they are cis or trans, since cis women are also disqualified if they exceed testosterone limits.
Proud Liberal Dem
(24,384 posts)That's what we're talking about here.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)High school athletes use PEDs.
Testosterone is a PED.
Who do you think buys this stuff?
https://www.wilsonsupplements.com/Hi-Tech-Decabolin-p/il-100.htm?gclid=CjwKCAiAhJTyBRAvEiwAln2qB-hmnQaXgKHJcVt-6uM6x8EqfweVUfcgdhjUb-0-y2grxTnUVmUgpBoCxZ4QAvD_BwEO
WhoWoodaKnew
(847 posts)Proud Liberal Dem
(24,384 posts)Cis girls have a wide range of abilities and potential inherent advantages. Why should Trans girls be singled out if they happen to be successful?
WhoWoodaKnew
(847 posts)spots on teams, starting positions and possible careers because another group of men and women decided to juice and beat them out (starting in high school and including college (scholarships), minor leagues and professional sports/Olympics) because another group of people did the Trump and cheated like hell.
Now, biological men who are now women competing against biological women aren't juicing/cheating but the end result will be the exact same. Some girls that would have made teams will be cut. The girls that would have been offered scholarships won't be. The girls that would have made college teams won't. The girls that would have been stars won't. The girls that would have made professional teams (pay their bills) won't. It's not all of them of course but some have to be bumped by the biological males that take their spots. The record books for biological women will be re-written as the biological men (who are women) shatter their records. Heck, as I type this I'm realizing that the biological women will have to start juicing just to keep up.
Unless, of course, people think that we made a mistake initially by separating men and women into different divisions (as we fought for women's sports to be offered in high schools and colleges).
I'm in my 50s and about 10 women in the world can hit a golf ball longer than me. I could go back to college (as a women) and dominate many women's sports.
It's the biological women who will be cheated. And some people will justify it.
Bradical79
(4,490 posts)and the medical opinions of those who study such things.
JonLP24
(29,322 posts)I'm not talking about this thread but Im seeing this a lot on European Twitter accounts.
It seems trans people get lost in all this and they are often targets for violence.
I also learned a new word. TERF.
Proud Liberal Dem
(24,384 posts)I beg everybody here to educate themselves on the reality of things and watch what kind of information they're getting and from whom, esp. if they happen to be TERFS, which are a particularly toxic group of women whose primary mission in life seems to be attacking Trans girls/women and have allied themselves with the religious right, when it has been convenient for them.
JonLP24
(29,322 posts)I see ugliness in this thread. The reason why I didn't mean this thread so much because the comments here are mild compared to the stuff I was reading from Europe. Seems like trans rights are dividing the Labour Party in the UK and seen a lot of transphobia even from rose(logo for Democratic Socialists) accounts.
I certainly do need to learn more and have learned a lot the past few weeks.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Or do you think that women athletes should be allowed to take supplemental testosterone up to the permissible limit applied to women athletes?
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/01/sports/caster-semenya-loses.html
Female track athletes with naturally elevated levels of testosterone must decrease the hormone to participate in certain races at major competitions like the Olympics, the highest court in international sports said Wednesday in a landmark ruling amid the pitched debate over who can compete in women’s events.
The decision was a defeat for Caster Semenya, a two-time Olympic champion at 800 meters from South Africa, who had challenged proposed limits placed on female athletes with naturally elevated levels of the muscle-building hormone testosterone.
---
I believe the only sensible solution is to allow doping in sports and let it go. If that's what athletes want to do with their bodies, that's up to them.
Proud Liberal Dem
(24,384 posts)And yes, testosterone levels shouldn't matter. There is wide range of T levels among Cis women (and even Cis men) and it seems like it would be difficult, if not impossible, to quantify exactly what sort of advantages or disadvantages it provides.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Unfortunately, it seems you are unfamiliar with hormone testing in athletics.
There is no way to tell whether a woman has a “naturally” high level of testosterone or an “artificially” high level, unless you plan on keeping female athletes confined and under observation.
Accordingly, there are limits on hormone levels, because testosterone enhances performance in many sports. If you have some other way of dealing with it, spit it out. Biochemistry is not a social construct.
So instead of acting coy, that this has nothing to do with doping, my question is whether you would permit other female athletes to supplement their hormones to match those of female athletes who have higher testosterone levels - for whatever reason.
Otherwise, it would seem that you simply do not understand the issues relating to hormones in athletics generally.
Proud Liberal Dem
(24,384 posts)This is getting so far down the rabbit hole. We're talking about High School athletics where (I assume) doping isn't an issue.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Okay. That’s funny.
I’m going to guess you have not had any involvement with athletics at any level for a very long time if ever.
Have yourself a great day.
mr_lebowski
(33,643 posts)jayfish
(10,037 posts)Are you thinking of Little League or Rocket Football or something else?
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Let me be clear.
I completely agree with where you are coming from.
However, yes, there is doping in High School athletics. There has long been doping in High School athletics.
CIS female athletes, absent testing and limits, will in fact - and do in fact - use testosterone and precursors thereof to enhance performance.
This happens at all levels of athletics.
Accordingly, there are testosterone limits applied to female athletes. To allow female athletes with excessive testosterone - regardless of whether they are cis or trans and regardless of whether it is natural or artificial - to compete against other female athletes with relative normal (in the statistical sense - i.e. within some range of the statistical mean selected to capture a given high percentage of all athletes), is to allow an unfair competitive advantage.
That is not a value judgment of any kind. The ENTIRE reason for having separate men's and women's athletic categories for the same sport (as opposed to sports such as pairs figure skating) is due to the statistically different hormonal levels and the persistent training advantage of those hormonal levels. Otherwise, men and women would simply all compete in an undifferentiated category which, in some sports, is reasonable.
But if you are going to say, "performance-enhancing biochemical levels should be irrelevant to competitive gender category" then you have to make it an even playing field in some way.
I totally get where you are coming from. It simply does not work out "fairly" to all of the athletes to ignore limits on naturally-occurring performance-enhancing biochemicals, which is the entire basis for gender division in sport in the first place.
janterry
(4,429 posts)compared to biological women. That is not only unfair, it doesn't begin to address the issue of transgender women who have gone through male puberty.
Transgender women can compete in the women’s category as long as their blood testosterone levels have been maintained below 10 nano moles per liter for a minimum of 12 months.
Men typically have testosterone levels of 7.7 to 29.4 nano moles per liter,
women are generally 1.7 nmol/L or less.
The governing body of track and field just adopted a 5nmol/L limit.
Transgender women who have gone through male puberty have many advantages. These include: bigger bone structure, greater lung capacity, and larger heart size.
They also retain 'muscle memory': Testosterone also promotes muscle memory—an ability to regain muscle mass after a period of detraining—by increasing the number of nuclei in muscles, and these added nuclei don’t go away.
https://www.wired.com/story/the-glorious-victories-of-trans-athletes-are-shaking-up-sports/
Calista241
(5,585 posts)Olympic records are expected to be shattered by trans athletes. Well see how people really feel about it as trans women start to dominate women’s sports over the next 10 years.
Captain Stern
(2,198 posts)People might start realizing that allowing males (even if they are women) to compete against females is going to turn a lot of female sports into a sad, joke.
Proud Liberal Dem
(24,384 posts)Jose Garcia
(2,581 posts)Proud Liberal Dem
(24,384 posts)Captain Stern
(2,198 posts)People might start realizing that allowing people that have xy chromomes (even if they are women) to compete against people with xx chromomes is going to turn a lot of female sports into a sad, joke.
janterry
(4,429 posts)I remember when there were just a few options for girls/women in sports. In my town, a few girls played baseball for a few years - until they were finally kicked off the teams (it was 'too competitive').
The playing field needs to be fair.
Baclava
(12,047 posts)The 29-year-old will make history on February 29 in Atlanta, where she will compete against 63 women for a spot on the Olympic team to compete at the Summer Games in Tokyo later this year.
Youngren began her transition from a male to a female when she was a college student in 2011. She also started taking hormone medication that year, and in 2012, she came out publicly as transgender. She officially finalized her transition last year, submitting the necessary paperwork.
Unlike other competitions that allow runners to qualify and participate within their gender identity, USA Track & Field more closely follows the Olympic rules which applies numerical values to athletes that determine who is and is not allowed to compete as a woman. Trans female athletes must show that their testosterone in serum is below 10 nanomoles per liter for at least 12 months before competition. It also must remain below that line for the period of the athlete wishes to compete with their gender. These policies haven't had the same effect on Youngren as they have had on other transgender runners, such as Caster Semenya.
https://www.si.com/olympics/2020/02/13/megan-youngren-first-transgender-athlete-us-olympic-marathon-trials
killaphill
(212 posts)And best of luck in her race!!
janterry
(4,429 posts)that's quite an advantage
pattyloutwo
(279 posts)Makes total sense that it should be a biological determination. They can compete as girls on the boys team.
dogknob
(2,431 posts)
Response to killaphill (Original post)
Post removed
canetoad
(17,129 posts)To me it looked like a thread of adults grappling with an existential problem. I'd also like to remind you that 'phobia' is described as 'an exaggerated usually inexplicable and illogical fear of a particular object, class of objects, or situation'.
Unfortunately the term 'phobic' is now used as a lazy way to describe any discussion, not in glowing, friendly terms, that may offend someone's remote sensibilities. JMHO.
janterry
(4,429 posts)thank you for saying this
MosheFeingold
(3,051 posts)It was a bit more mundane and practical -- the camp was traditionally segregated by heterosexual male/female cabins -- largely on the basis that sticking a bunch of hormonal teenagers of the opposite sex is a recipe for sending home pregnant girls and very young fathers (and rape and everything else that can go with mixing) But also just to avoid a pick-up culture. This were (are) young teens, and it was too early for that kind of activity (not that there is a good age for rape) -- but you get the issues.
So, now we have openly homosexual kids (and probably transsexual, but that hadn't come up yet) -- so where do they go? We didn't want to segregate them (and that defeated the purpose of not having people who are potentially sexually attracted to each other in separate cabins/showers/etc, anyway). Simultaneously, there were similar issues -- exacerbated by the fact that a lot of the kids are frum (observant Jews) who were very uncomfortable sleeping/showering/etc with anyone who was sexually attracted to them.
Very vexing issue, weighing the competing concerns.
Anyway, I don't think a satisfactory result came about.
Sophia_Of_PlanetX
(73 posts)I think that’s a good compromise between outright banning transwomen and letting anyone who identifies as a girl on girls’ teams.
Also, The Alliance Defending Freedom sucks.
hunter
(38,300 posts)They are a danger to the kids who participate (especially football) and create a larger class of kids who think they are not "good enough" to participate in healthy physical recreation.
As a society we "win" when ALL of our children are running, swimming, playing soccer, basketball, etc..
Friendly informal competition isn't a bad thing, but in general high school sports are toxic.
If parents want to groom their kids for the sports industry, then fine, they can do that on their own time, outside the public school system. Maybe the sports industry itself could fund independent competitive sports programs not connected to any school, public or private.
In high school my children played various sports and ran on cross country teams but I did not expect them to be sports heroes.
As adults, they still participate in competitive sports. For fun.
