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Fri Jan 24, 2020, 12:07 AM

New York On Track To Ban Cashless Stores And Restaurants

Source: CNN

New York (CNN) ó New York is on track to ban cashless businesses after the city council voted to join San Francisco and Philadelphia in requiring brick-and-mortar stores to accept cash. Under the law, food and retail establishments would have to accept American bills and coins or face a fine.

Mayor Bill De Blasio is expected to sign the bill, his office told CNN. "When you open a dollar bill, it reads 'This note is legal tender for all debts, public and private,'" said Councilman Ritchie Torres, the sponsor of the bill. "Cash ought to command universal acceptance."

Once signed, businesses would have nine months to adjust before the law takes effect. Torres said the bill would protect the most vulnerable New Yorkers, such as seniors, homeless people and undocumented residents.

A 2015 Urban Institute study found that almost 40% of the city's households were "unbanked" or "underbanked" -- meaning they have no bank accounts or use alternative financial services -- increasing their reliance on cash. That percentage is higher outside of Manhattan, where large swathes of the city have few banking services. Those areas also tend to have more immigrants and people of color, according to the New Economy Project, an organization for low income New Yorkers...

Read more: https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/23/us/nyc-cashless-ban/index.html





- A cashless store, 'Two Forks' in New York in 2017.

59 replies, 2938 views

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Arrow 59 replies Author Time Post
Reply New York On Track To Ban Cashless Stores And Restaurants (Original post)
appalachiablue Jan 24 OP
Talitha Jan 24 #1
appalachiablue Jan 24 #2
SoCalNative Jan 24 #26
Bernardo de La Paz Jan 24 #16
Hotler Jan 24 #23
Mosby Jan 24 #24
Igel Jan 24 #36
MosheFeingold Jan 24 #38
meadowlander Jan 27 #54
Arthur_Frain Jan 24 #3
Codeine Jan 24 #32
Arthur_Frain Jan 24 #45
Codeine Jan 24 #46
jberryhill Jan 27 #51
BigmanPigman Jan 24 #4
appalachiablue Jan 24 #5
BigmanPigman Jan 24 #6
appalachiablue Jan 24 #7
Mosby Jan 24 #25
Freddie Jan 24 #28
Codeine Jan 24 #33
jberryhill Jan 27 #53
BigmanPigman Jan 24 #39
dalton99a Jan 24 #8
alwaysinasnit Jan 24 #9
cab67 Jan 24 #10
rpannier Jan 24 #11
Sherman A1 Jan 24 #12
bucolic_frolic Jan 24 #13
OnlinePoker Jan 24 #14
Codeine Jan 24 #43
Blues Heron Jan 24 #15
SomewhereInTheMiddle Jan 24 #17
Codeine Jan 24 #34
Happy Hoosier Jan 24 #41
Meeker Jan 24 #18
melm00se Jan 24 #19
Blues Heron Jan 24 #22
Cal Carpenter Jan 24 #29
smirkymonkey Jan 27 #49
MicaelS Jan 24 #20
Polybius Jan 24 #21
Me. Jan 24 #27
I_UndergroundPanther Jan 24 #30
Igel Jan 24 #37
OneCrazyDiamond Jan 24 #31
Codeine Jan 24 #35
Happy Hoosier Jan 24 #42
Codeine Jan 24 #44
mwooldri Jan 24 #47
MicaelS Jan 27 #50
Codeine Jan 27 #52
brooklynite Jan 24 #40
Coventina Jan 27 #55
brooklynite Jan 27 #56
Coventina Jan 27 #57
brooklynite Jan 27 #58
Coventina Jan 27 #59
Raine Jan 25 #48

Response to appalachiablue (Original post)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 12:17 AM

1. Why are there cashless stores - robberies?

I'd starve in NY!

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Response to Talitha (Reply #1)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 12:24 AM

2. Mgmts claims they don't have to hassle with security issues & robberies

and they can get more customers thru and served w/o cash. This is a good move, cashless marginalizes several groups.

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Response to appalachiablue (Reply #2)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 10:47 AM

26. And in some cases they also don't need to employ the use of armored car services

for delivery and pick-up.

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Response to Talitha (Reply #1)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 08:22 AM

16. Cash has to be held & physically carried to a bank. Or secure courier paid to do it. . . . nt

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Response to Talitha (Reply #1)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 10:32 AM

23. It's the government and the bankers that want a cashless system.

The government wants to track your every movement and the bankers want to be able to sell your purchasing habits to third parties.
they can't track you or sell your purchasing habits if you use cash. I very seldom use my credit card, I use cash for all my everyday spending. I withdraw my money at the bank and not from an ATM.

All it takes with a cashless system is a flip of a switch and your money is cut off. When the economy crashes and people are in the streets, you're going to want some cash on hand.

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Response to Hotler (Reply #23)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 10:41 AM

24. The underground economy would disappear without cash

Depending on how bad it gets, cash is on it's way out.

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Response to Hotler (Reply #23)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 05:38 PM

36. Businesses often like cashless.

You get more customers served if they pay quickly by card than if they rummage for cash, hand it to the cashier, and then deal with change. Increases sales per cashier and lets you deal with more customers with a given POS device.

Then there's having cash on hand, shorts and overage in the cash drawers, dealing with getting can to and from the bank and the rather rare employee theft.

This is from experience supervising management in the mid 1990s, so it's not a new idea.

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Response to Hotler (Reply #23)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 06:14 PM

38. Correct

It's about control and freezing out the undesirables.

Oh, you voted Democrat? Sorry, you can't bank. Sorry, no bank card, no food!

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Response to Talitha (Reply #1)

Mon Jan 27, 2020, 08:52 PM

54. No cash, no cashiers.

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Response to appalachiablue (Original post)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 12:31 AM

3. I always wanted to push this when the airlines did it.

It says right on the bill ďThis note legal tender for all debts public and privateĒ.

You can ask your clientele if you prefer, but itís right on our money.

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Response to Arthur_Frain (Reply #3)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 05:08 PM

32. The catch is

that until the bargain is struck (i.e. a sale is made) no debt exists, so itís perfectly legal to refuse to accept cash ahead of time. If I have a liquor store that is cashless thatís fine as long as no debt exists, no property has changed hands.

Now if I serve you a meal before payment then a debt exists and Iím obligated to take cash.

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Response to Codeine (Reply #32)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 08:00 PM

45. Yeah, I'm not sure I agree with you unless there's some esoteric ruling I'm unaware of.

I mean it says right on the bill, all of them:

ďThis note is legal tender for all debts public and privateĒ

Iím not a real confrontational guy, and back in the day I always brought my own food anyway. But I am a bit alarmed by the concept of a cashless society. At least my generation always had the money stuffed in the mattress to fall back on.

Iíve travelled a lot. Everywhere, the gold standard was the U.S. money. All my life it was something you could count on. Got enough of it? You can get where you need to go. But I imagine those days are ending.

Iíll miss the anonymity of cash. Not that I did anything wrong with it, I just appreciated the privacy.

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Response to Arthur_Frain (Reply #45)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 08:07 PM

46. But it's not a debt

until itís been entered into. Thatís just the way it is, and why these cities are specifically passing these laws. If the situation was actually as you believed then new laws would not be required.

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Response to Arthur_Frain (Reply #45)

Mon Jan 27, 2020, 07:55 PM

51. Popular misconception


Try buying a car with $1 bills and let us know how that works out.

If you owe a debt to someone, and you offer them US currency, then youíre good to go.

But as others point out, you donít walk in owing these people money.

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Response to appalachiablue (Original post)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 12:33 AM

4. I can't imagine Chinese Restaurants in NYC going cashless.

When I tried to find one that took credit cards in 2002 there were NONE. Maybe it has changed since then but this also happened to me in Chinatown in San Francisco in 2007.

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Response to BigmanPigman (Reply #4)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 12:38 AM

5. It's become a big thing in large urban areas in the last few years.

Love of all things digital too maybe. It's esp. popular with the young, hip and affluent.

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Response to appalachiablue (Reply #5)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 12:46 AM

6. They certainly must trust technology

not getting hacked or just going kaput. People like that are the first ones to start crying when there is a problem and they can't access their cash. That is why I always have some hidden at home in case there is an earthquake or another emergency. Cash will buy a lot when the ATMs and credit cards go off the grid. Can you imagine not having cash at a gas station to evacuate during a hurricane?

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Response to BigmanPigman (Reply #6)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 12:55 AM

7. Several years ago there was a post on this topic in the lounge,

and plenty of people argued for going cashless.

Once we had a nasty derecho summer heat wave storm with 97 degrees and all power went out, for hours- ATMS, drugstore cash registers wouldn't open, etc. Luckily I had some cash to use at a convenience store and gas station. Never leave home without it.

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Response to BigmanPigman (Reply #4)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 10:43 AM

25. Because they cheat.

Cc transactions are reported to the state, no so for cash.

You don't pay tax on revenue that doesn't exist.

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Response to Mosby (Reply #25)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 11:57 AM

28. I'm sure that's true

Most Chinese restaurants around here and a couple locally owned pizza places are cash only, not even debit. They all have ATMs (that charge a fee of course) within.

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Response to Freddie (Reply #28)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 05:10 PM

33. Yep, cash only businesses are usually

laundering money.

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Response to Codeine (Reply #33)

Mon Jan 27, 2020, 07:57 PM

53. They could have other problems


Hard to open a merchant account if the owner has an inconvenient financial or criminal past, and you certainly donít want to use a bank account if you have had a misunderstanding with the IRS.

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Response to Mosby (Reply #25)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 06:53 PM

39. That explains it.

I knew there had to be an angle in it someplace.

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Response to appalachiablue (Original post)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 01:01 AM

8. Good.

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Response to appalachiablue (Original post)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 03:06 AM

9. Too much reliance on digital systems can cause havoc.

https://off-guardian.org/2018/06/02/visa-payment-crash-and-the-dangers-of-a-cashless-world

Yesterday, Visaís payment system crashed in Europe. Millions of people were unable to complete purchases. Some found themselves trapped overseas. It was a small glitch, apparently, but could have caused a major panic.

This situation should be a special warning to the people of the UK, who on average carry only £17 in cash at any moment, and where 1/4 of us will leave a store if paying by card is not an option. I count myself among those people.

As someone who has simply gotten completely out of the habit of carrying cash at all, this news is an eye-opener. Obviously, through OffGuardian, I consider myself aware of the deeper problems of society and of malicious political agendas, and yet I never thought of my financial vulnerability in a world where I literally have no control over my money.

Well, in a cashless world, where your money is entirely digital, youíre never more than a computer glitch or a power outage from going bankrupt. A hack away from identity theft. A forgotten pin from being locked out of your own money. A clerical error from the complete collapse of your finances.

Snip...

----------

Article is from 2018

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Response to appalachiablue (Original post)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 05:03 AM

10. Had a recent experience with a cashless coffee shop.

The coffee shop in the building across from my department is cashless. Usually, not really a problem for me. I often get my lunch and frequent doses of caffeine there.

But it became one about a month ago. I went in for an MRI and forgot to take my wallet out. All of my cards were demagnetized. Swiping one of them was like swiping a playing card.

It took me a day or two to get my ATM card replaced. But in the meantime, I was utterly unable to buy anything at this coffee shop. They wouldn't take cash, which was all I had.

This wasn't really a major hardship for me; I had a new ATM card the next day, and I was able to get what I needed at another store that actually took cash. But I can imagine this would be a more serious problem for anyone lacking ATM or credit cards, or who have cash onhand, but not enough money in the bank.

About two weeks later, my ATM card ended up getting shut down because I used an ATM machine in which someone had installed a skimmer. I'm grateful the situation was addressed by my credit union quickly, but I was out of town and unable to get a new ATM card until I went back home three days later. I also haven't replaced my demagnetized credit cards; I really don't use them in stores that often, so I haven't bothered. But without my ATM card, I had to pay for everything with cash. I didn't know how much of a hassle paying for gas has become if one is using cash.

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Response to appalachiablue (Original post)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 05:28 AM

11. Good

They should take cash. Not everyone can get credit cards, or make enough to use banks

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Response to appalachiablue (Original post)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 06:23 AM

12. Good

I believe that cashless is a bad idea.

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Response to appalachiablue (Original post)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 06:47 AM

13. Cashless society with bank branches every 1/4 mile

Just like strip malls. The only thing keeping economy growing is building unneeded buildings.

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Response to appalachiablue (Original post)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 07:04 AM

14. Unless it's a big ticket item, I only use cash.

The data you're giving the credit card and banks about your shopping habits when using their cards is incredible. It's nobody's business but mine what I spend my money on.

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Response to OnlinePoker (Reply #14)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 07:08 PM

43. Why do I care if a bank knows

that I enjoy bagels, jersey sheets, and Coke Slurpees? Whatís the desire to maintain some sort of consumer secrecy rooted in?

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Response to appalachiablue (Original post)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 08:13 AM

15. Good

The safety claim is usually debunked by the existence of a cash tip jar. If it was really about safety there would be no cash allowed period.

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Response to appalachiablue (Original post)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 08:32 AM

17. My favorite breakfast place only takes cash

So every Sunday morning I have to make sure I have cash on hand. They know lots of people forget and I often hear them giving directions to the nearest ATM to first timers or the forgetful as they try to pay a the register.

In college I was without a bank and had to pay all my bills, including rent, in cash. Even back then it was problematic. I could not rent a car or make a air reservation without going through a travel agent (remember them?).

I have always taken the "all debts public and private" seriously and wondered how that was not enforced. I wonder if you could call the Treasury agents on anyone that does not accept cash. They print the cash. They should be willing to enforce the contract.

Or maybe that's just me.

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Response to SomewhereInTheMiddle (Reply #17)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 05:11 PM

34. That's a fundamental misunderstanding

of ďdebt.Ē

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Response to SomewhereInTheMiddle (Reply #17)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 06:55 PM

41. As an individual, you can choose to accept cash, or not...

I strongly suspect these laws requiring the acceptance of cash are Unconstitutional.

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Response to appalachiablue (Original post)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 09:00 AM

18. There's plenty of stores that "underbanked" people can't shop in ...

 

... simply because they are too poor.

And grocery stores in NYC like cash because it helps them evade sales tax.

And point-of-sale is not a debt, public or private.

DeBlasio isn't being a bad guy, but I opine he didn't think this through.

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Response to appalachiablue (Original post)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 09:01 AM

19. upsides/downsides to being cashless

Upsides
- easier accounting.
- lower physical security risk (less likely to be robbed).
- lower potential for cash shrinkage.
- faster checkout (no need to physically handle money).
- no need to actually go to a bank branch to make a deposit.

Downsides
- not everyone likes to use cards or even has cards to use.
- dependent upon an outside service to process payments (downtime).
- keyboard critics.

As to the commentary about cash being "legal tender":

- the argument can be made that if the business clearly posts that they only accept cards before you place the order, you will have entered into a contract accepting the terms and conditions for payment.

- the business is accepting US money just in a different physical form.

- This is virtually no different than a business posting that they do not accept anything larger than $20 bills.

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Response to melm00se (Reply #19)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 09:56 AM

22. The security one is BS because there's always a cash tip jar

and lets face it - there's cash in the store cashless or not.

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Response to melm00se (Reply #19)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 12:22 PM

29. You're missing at least 2 downsides

off the top of my head...

- security risk - data breaches/theft/hacks of millions of credit card user's info (much more likely to impact an individual than a physical robbery simply because of the scale)
- processing costs for small businesses. Credit card processors take 2 to 3% of the charges to cover processing costs. As a small retail business owner in a low-margin industry, those fees are the reason I sometimes can't cash my own paycheck. For giant companies, it may be a wash because they have to pay employees to count their cash drawers after their shifts, more room for human error, etc. But for the little guys like me, it fucking sucks.

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Response to Cal Carpenter (Reply #29)

Mon Jan 27, 2020, 07:12 PM

49. Not only that, but what about power outages?

Nobody will be able to buy a thing or even get money out of an ATM in the event of a major power outage.

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Response to appalachiablue (Original post)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 09:35 AM

20. Great, all for this.

I am sick and fucking tired of businesses always coming up new ways to make it harder for customers and easier on themselves.

My apt complex has a laundromat that only accepts plastic. That flats sucks. I do not trust situations like this.

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Response to appalachiablue (Original post)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 09:41 AM

21. I've lived in NYC all my life

Not once in all of my years have I ever run into a cashless store.

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Response to Polybius (Reply #21)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 11:27 AM

27. There Are A Growing Number of Them

Daily Provisions, opened by Shake Shack's Danny Meyers, just opened on the UWS. I'm in favor of the ban as I consider it just another way banks will pick our pockets. Sooner or later they will figure out how to do so and if we are completely cashless there will be no recourse. And there's also the possibility of more and more intrusion into private matters. Then there is the discrimination issue.

ďA 2019 report by New York Cityís department of consumer and worker protection found that 11% of households in the city have no bank account, while about 22% of households are ďunderbankedĒ Ė meaning they use alternatives to bank accounts for some payments.Ē

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jan/24/new-york-city-ban-cashless-businesses-discrimination

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Response to appalachiablue (Original post)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 03:49 PM

30. Wish this would be the law everywhere.

Wish Maryland had the wherewithal to make it the law here too.

I pay my bills with cash and money orders. I don't like electronic banking. I only have a cellphone.
Limited data because unlimited data is a lie.

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Response to I_UndergroundPanther (Reply #30)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 05:44 PM

37. When most places I've run into say "cashless,"

that's including various cell-phone based payment methods. Not just chip.

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Response to appalachiablue (Original post)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 04:51 PM

31. This should be the law everywhere including Government agency

I can't use cash for a fishing license

https://wildlife.ca.gov/Licensing/Fishing

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Response to appalachiablue (Original post)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 05:19 PM

35. Cashlessness is inevitable.

Might as well rail against the incoming tide or the phases of the moon.

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Response to Codeine (Reply #35)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 07:00 PM

42. Lots of Luddites here it seems. NT

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Response to Happy Hoosier (Reply #42)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 07:10 PM

44. It's kind of a running theme in these parts. nt

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Response to Codeine (Reply #35)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 09:00 PM

47. The society that's most cashless? Probably the Chinese.

Alipay or Wepay are the methods of payment. Not cash.

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Response to Codeine (Reply #35)

Mon Jan 27, 2020, 07:47 PM

50. Really?

And what will you do when there is a system crash, and no digital transactions can be made?

How do plan to eat?

Before you accuse me of being a Luddite, I am in favor of tech, not just with this one.

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Response to MicaelS (Reply #50)

Mon Jan 27, 2020, 07:56 PM

52. I'm not saying it is good or bad

or minimizing the inherent issues, Iím just saying itís inevitable. I believe that developed economies will be cashless, and within my lifetime (for reference, Iím 50.)

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Response to appalachiablue (Original post)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 06:54 PM

40. So the store will close and jobs in NYC will be lost.

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #40)

Mon Jan 27, 2020, 09:26 PM

55. One of the most popular restaurants in my town is cash only.

It's been open for decades and is packed every day.

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Response to Coventina (Reply #55)

Mon Jan 27, 2020, 10:10 PM

56. Delighted to hear it...perhaps it should expand to fill the void.

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #56)

Mon Jan 27, 2020, 10:11 PM

57. They're a family business. They have no desire to expand.

Trivia: They are the real-life establishment that the TV show "Alice" was based on.

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Response to Coventina (Reply #57)

Mon Jan 27, 2020, 10:13 PM

58. IN which case the decision to accept cash or not will be left up to the businesses already in NYC

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #58)

Mon Jan 27, 2020, 10:14 PM

59. Apparently not, according to this news story.

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Response to appalachiablue (Original post)

Sat Jan 25, 2020, 07:28 PM

48. Good

I prefer to use cash! 💰

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