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Mon Dec 9, 2019, 08:13 AM

Pensacola Attack Probed for Terrorism Link. Saudi Suspect Clashed With Instructor

Source: New York Times

As the F.B.I. continues to conduct interviews with everyone at the Pensacola Naval Air Station who may have had contact with the gunman, identified as Second Lt. Mohammed Alshamrani, a new report emerged that the Saudi trainee filed a formal complaint earlier this year against one of his instructors, who left him “infuriated” in class by tagging him with a derogatory nickname.

The complaint, quoted in a communication circulated among people connected to the flight training, said that the instructor referred to Lieutenant Alshamrani as “Porn Stash” in front of about 10 other aviation students, embarrassing and angering him.

“I was infuriated as to why he would say that in front of the class,” the Saudi trainee wrote in his complaint, as quoted in the summary. The document was reviewed by The New York Times and authenticated by a person who spoke with Lieutenant Alshamrani shortly after the incident...

Read more: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/08/us/pensacola-gunman.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage

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Reply Pensacola Attack Probed for Terrorism Link. Saudi Suspect Clashed With Instructor (Original post)
ancianita Dec 9 OP
bluedye33139 Dec 9 #1
ancianita Dec 9 #3
bluedye33139 Dec 9 #7
getagrip_already Dec 9 #26
ancianita Dec 9 #29
bluedye33139 Dec 10 #34
tblue37 Dec 10 #33
Elmer1007 Dec 9 #4
Ingersollman Dec 9 #5
bluedye33139 Dec 9 #6
ancianita Dec 9 #10
okaawhatever Dec 9 #15
bluedye33139 Dec 9 #23
marble falls Dec 9 #8
bluedye33139 Dec 9 #21
marble falls Dec 9 #25
Devil Child Dec 9 #20
bluedye33139 Dec 9 #22
Devil Child Dec 9 #28
bluedye33139 Dec 10 #31
Devil Child Dec 10 #37
bluedye33139 Dec 10 #38
tblue37 Dec 10 #32
bluedye33139 Dec 10 #35
NonPC Dec 9 #2
marble falls Dec 9 #9
ancianita Dec 9 #11
hack89 Dec 9 #17
Miguelito Loveless Dec 9 #12
ancianita Dec 9 #13
Miguelito Loveless Dec 9 #14
ancianita Dec 9 #16
no_hypocrisy Dec 9 #18
Devil Child Dec 9 #19
dchill Dec 9 #27
ancianita Dec 9 #24
Happy Hoosier Dec 9 #30
DeminPennswoods Dec 10 #36
ancianita Dec 10 #39
ck4829 Dec 13 #40

Response to ancianita (Original post)

Mon Dec 9, 2019, 08:19 AM

1. Yikes. Saying someone looks like porn is problematic

Telling someone they look pornographic or they remind you of pornography is bordering on sexual harassment. It ridicules a person while also sexualizing them. This is not appropriate conduct.

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Response to bluedye33139 (Reply #1)

Mon Dec 9, 2019, 09:15 AM

3. Very unprofessional. A teacher who makes fun of a student's appearance is stupid.

This is what happens when instructors come from subcontracted companies without proper training on instructional attitude, methods.

Not saying anyone should be killed for this stupidity, either. All the adult students of the class should have filed the complaint along with one singled out by the teacher, in my view. They're not there to play games.

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Response to ancianita (Reply #3)

Mon Dec 9, 2019, 10:02 AM

7. Classroom management is a thing.

I would be interested to see what kind of training the instructor had. This is just unbelievably bad.

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Response to ancianita (Reply #3)

Mon Dec 9, 2019, 05:05 PM

26. Imagine that - a military instructor insulting recruits... who ever heard of such a thing?

Surely it's not military culture to insult recruits or trainees in order to weed out the bad candidates?

Tell me it isn't so!


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Response to getagrip_already (Reply #26)

Mon Dec 9, 2019, 06:46 PM

29. James Day worked for a subcontractor to the military, was not military himself. But I get your point

I worked on base at Fort Gordon, GA, back in the day, saw military instructors insult, usually in field training sessions but not the classroom.

We "get" military culture, but this Saudi obviously didn't get our civilian culture, nevermind our military culture. So there's that to consider.

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Response to ancianita (Reply #29)

Tue Dec 10, 2019, 01:51 PM

34. Members of the same military

This practices occur within one's own organization. The behaviors are meant to promote group cohesion.

A temporary subcontractor dealing with international trainees is not in the same situation.

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Response to ancianita (Reply #3)

Tue Dec 10, 2019, 10:09 AM

33. +1. nt

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Response to bluedye33139 (Reply #1)

Mon Dec 9, 2019, 09:18 AM

4. Dont see it that way.

Looks to be a reference to the student having a stash of porrn. Maybe looking at some when supposed to be studying. Porn appears to be illegal in Saudi Arabia withe producers subject to death penalty

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Response to Elmer1007 (Reply #4)

Mon Dec 9, 2019, 09:37 AM

5. Possibly.

But if you look at the killer's picture, you'll see why he was called "Porn Stache", as in porn mustache. Not saying that it was alright for the instructor to call him that, just saying I can see where the nickname came from.

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Response to Ingersollman (Reply #5)

Mon Dec 9, 2019, 09:51 AM

6. I can see where the instructor derived the content of the insult

But the reason why an instructor ridicules an individual in a classroom has to do with the ego of that instructor and an aggressive desire to demean and harm the individual that is targeted.

I taught for years, and I learned early on that when you have the entire attention of the room and you target an individual, you are playing with fire.

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Response to Elmer1007 (Reply #4)


Response to Elmer1007 (Reply #4)

Mon Dec 9, 2019, 10:50 AM

15. Porn Stashe refers to a character from the TV show Orange is the New Black. One of the

guards was nicknamed Porn Stache. It's a thing.

You can google for multiple pictures/articles.

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Response to okaawhatever (Reply #15)

Mon Dec 9, 2019, 12:28 PM

23. I'm familiar with this. He likely was not.

In a speech situation, one cannot assume that one's own cultural references are coming through. Also, the reference to the type of facial hair that men in pornography have is problematic. Edgelords made it a norm in our culture, but for most people speaking English worldwide, the reference would be interpreted much differently.

An instructor using this kind of an insult to demean and degrade someone in a classroom is playing with fire.

Such conduct is astonishingly unprofessional.

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Response to bluedye33139 (Reply #1)

Mon Dec 9, 2019, 10:15 AM

8. Porn 'stash, and that expression has been used lots of times here in the US as in ...

Steven Colbert saying something like this about Trump aide: "Joe Doaks, assistant to Jarod Kushner and man who really rocks his porn 'stash (porn mustache) ....."

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=porn%20moustache

porn moustache
aka porn 'stash

the close and neatly trimmed moustache not extending beyond lips word by adult film actors, especially Ron Jeremy
Buck told friends he was an actor, but they could tell he was only in stag films because of his telltale porn stash.
by chromedome December 07, 2003


?quality=65&strip=all




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Response to marble falls (Reply #8)

Mon Dec 9, 2019, 12:23 PM

21. I'm not sure how a photo of Ron Jeremy is unrelated to porn

I'm not persuaded that you showing me a photograph of a porn actor indicates that references to this are not references to pornography.

Can you see how telling someone they remind you of a person from pornography is not unrelated to pornography? Can you see how that would be an inflammatory topic to invoke while insulting someone?

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Response to bluedye33139 (Reply #21)

Mon Dec 9, 2019, 04:57 PM

25. Me either, he has a porn 'stache, too.

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Response to bluedye33139 (Reply #1)

Mon Dec 9, 2019, 12:02 PM

20. Yikes, killing people for perceived insults is problematic.

It kills a person while also dehumanizing them(literally). This is not appropriate conduct.

The shooter appears to be a radical Islamist incel with a murderous axe to grind. Fuck him.

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Response to Devil Child (Reply #20)

Mon Dec 9, 2019, 12:26 PM

22. You have no knowledge of this person's faith

You have absolutely no direct knowledge of this person's faith, do you? Can you tell me what imam he follows?

My experience with Saudis is that most of them belong to moderate or mainstream mosques.

My expectation would be that this was a response to being directly challenged in public. I would chalk this out to a cultural difference. He likely felt that his honor was at stake as a human being.

But if you have data on his mosque and sect, I would be happy to hear it.

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Response to bluedye33139 (Reply #22)

Mon Dec 9, 2019, 06:14 PM

28. He is Islamic and he quoted Bin Laden on his Twitter before the attack

It is a cultural difference. Islamic extremist intolerance for US citizens helped shape his decision making.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN1YC0K3

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Response to bluedye33139 (Reply #31)

Tue Dec 10, 2019, 03:31 PM

37. You sound like you have nothing to refute the reality of who and what the shooter is

I care little for dancing around sensitivities or an overly broad umbrella of “islamophobia” in trying to hide this under a “more sensitive and understanding” workplace violence excuse.

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Response to Devil Child (Reply #37)

Tue Dec 10, 2019, 03:44 PM

38. It's ignorance, not islamophobia

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Response to bluedye33139 (Reply #1)

Tue Dec 10, 2019, 10:05 AM

32. Yes, and Saudis are *very* conservative about sex, so it would have really riled him. nt

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Response to tblue37 (Reply #32)

Tue Dec 10, 2019, 01:52 PM

35. Yeah. I mean I'm not saying it was okay to shoot people

I'm just saying that it was also highly, highly inappropriate to use this kind of talk in a public setting in such a situation.

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Response to ancianita (Original post)

Mon Dec 9, 2019, 08:36 AM

2. Could Be That, too

Being friends with several ex-military instructor pilots, I have hears stories about Saudi pilot trainees. Seems these guys are NOT the brightest and the best -- rather -- they are either related to or closely tied to the Royal family. Being a Saudi military pilot back home is prestigious. Thus, it takes much more training time to get these guys thru the course so that they don't kill themselves or anyone else. Forget any ability to perform in battle. That's why the US has to send planes and pilots to defend Saudi Arabia. Wouldn't surprise me that this was the situation.

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Response to ancianita (Original post)

Mon Dec 9, 2019, 10:19 AM

9. The most troubling aspect after the mayhem involved is that this training was being done ...

by private contractors.

The military is just another area where there should be NO privatization.

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Response to marble falls (Reply #9)

Mon Dec 9, 2019, 10:31 AM

11. It's too late to change that. The US Military has subcontracted since Kennedy, maybe earlier.

I would say that the subcontractor's contract should be cancelled, or changed to stipulate verifiable teacher training before the put any teacher in any military base classroom.

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Response to marble falls (Reply #9)

Mon Dec 9, 2019, 11:10 AM

17. Military flight training has been privatized for a very long time and has been effective.

all the instructors are ex-military with years of experience. It is the most effective way to train pilots - the active duty pilots are needed to fill operational billets.

There are many places where privatization make sense - running the food service on base is a good one as are janitorial services. Depot level maintenance of vehicles and aircraft is another.

People forget just how small the military is now - there are not a lot of bodies for non-combat related jobs.



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Response to ancianita (Original post)

Mon Dec 9, 2019, 10:42 AM

12. Was he referring to "stash of porn"

Or the "stache" (mustache) supposedly worn by porn stars (see many policeman).

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Response to Miguelito Loveless (Reply #12)

Mon Dec 9, 2019, 10:45 AM

13. Oops. My mistake. I'll withdraw my previous post. Day referred to his appearance, most likely.

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Response to ancianita (Reply #13)

Mon Dec 9, 2019, 10:48 AM

14. No reason to, legit story

but I couldn't see the full story so I was asking for context.

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Response to Miguelito Loveless (Reply #14)

Mon Dec 9, 2019, 11:03 AM

16. So far, we have enough context to see that Day referred to his mustache, not some net "stash."

So I was just trying to clear up my previous misunderstanding.

Thanks for your posts.

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Response to ancianita (Original post)

Mon Dec 9, 2019, 11:45 AM

18. The shooter was Muslim. Referencing him with porn

could be construed as an insult to his religion and/or culture. He wasn't brought up in a culture where porn is accepted.

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Response to no_hypocrisy (Reply #18)

Mon Dec 9, 2019, 11:59 AM

19. He was insulted? Oh well I guess it's alright he went on a murder spree then

No one to blame in my mind except the murderer.

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Response to Devil Child (Reply #19)

Mon Dec 9, 2019, 05:20 PM

27. Exactly.

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Response to no_hypocrisy (Reply #18)

Mon Dec 9, 2019, 02:02 PM

24. Understanding his religion/culture does not excuse his ignoring our laws/culture. He cannot

Last edited Tue Dec 10, 2019, 10:38 AM - Edit history (1)

impose his religious/cultural practices on anyone, any place in this country.

No matter whether he was Muslim, atheist or Christian; no matter whether his feelings were correctly construed or not, we in this country are not brought up in a religion/legal culture where murder for any "insult" is accepted.

Do Saudi Muslims have any rules about honoring the religions and laws of other countries? Hardly.

How do I know this? Because I've spent more time than most Americans with Muslim students; attended University of Chicago's conferences on Islamic studies, where entire panels of students and Qu'ranic scholars spoke, speakers who engaged in Q & A re Qu'ranic education, and the Qu'ran as the very basis of Islamic culture. I've read the Qu'ran three times cover to cover.

I've come to conclude, based on reading Muslim writers, based on the few conversations any Muslims have given me time for, that they are raised only to appear to assimilate, but they don't intend to actually become American, with nationalized citizenship secondary to living their religion. They are taught that All non-Muslim parts of the world are dar al-harb, where infidels deserve no expectation of peacemaking from Muslims.

I could go on, but calling someone Muslim carries many more ramifications than some implied respect for his religious identity.

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Response to ancianita (Original post)

Mon Dec 9, 2019, 09:20 PM

30. It's referring to his mustache....

It's looks like a 70's "porn star" mustache... and for anyone familiar with aviation, pilots, and some folks closely associated with military aviation usually acquire a slightly embarrassing "callsign" sometime in their early career. I acquired one when I was flight test engineer. It's not a big deal.

Dude had a pornstache....

?imwidth=1200

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Response to ancianita (Original post)

Tue Dec 10, 2019, 03:08 PM

36. All pilots have nicknames

That's probably what this instructor had in mind, but he should have been sensitive to the Saudi culture with regard to religion and sex.

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Response to DeminPennswoods (Reply #36)

Tue Dec 10, 2019, 04:33 PM

39. You can just as logically say that the Saudi student should have been sensitive to American military

culture.

Just sayin.'

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Response to ancianita (Original post)

Fri Dec 13, 2019, 07:19 AM

40. Maniac's feelings got hurt?

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