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Fri Aug 9, 2019, 03:53 PM

Spend more on defense or we move troops to Poland, U.S. envoy tells Germany

Source: Reuters

An envoy of U.S. President Donald Trump suggested on Friday that Chancellor Angela Merkel’s unwillingness to boost defense spending might give the United States no choice but to move American troops stationed in Germany to Poland.

The comments by Richard Grenell, the U.S. ambassador to Germany, signal Trump’s impatience with Merkel’s failure to raise defense spending to 2% of economic output as mandated by the NATO military alliance. “It is offensive to assume that the U.S. taxpayers continue to pay for more than 50,000 Americans in Germany but the Germans get to spend their (budget) surplus on domestic programs,” Grenell told the dpa news agency.

Germany’s fiscal plans foresee the defense budget of NATO’s second-largest member rising to 1.37% of output next year before falling to 1.24% in 2023. Eastern European countries like Poland and Latvia, fearful of Russia after it annexed Crimea from Ukraine in 2014, have raised their military spending to the 2% target, drawing praise from Trump who wants Germany to do the same. U.S. complaints about Germany’s defense spending pre-date Trump but relations with the United States have deteriorated since he became president.

The United States has more than 33,000 soldiers in Germany and an additional 17,000 U.S. civilian employees to support them. It is believed the United States also has nuclear warheads in Germany. Trump travels to France this month for the G7 summit ... Trump will also visit Poland and Denmark.

Read more: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-germany-usa-nato/spend-more-on-defense-or-we-move-troops-to-poland-u-s-envoy-tells-germany-idUSKCN1UZ21H

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Reply Spend more on defense or we move troops to Poland, U.S. envoy tells Germany (Original post)
left-of-center2012 Aug 9 OP
Dan Aug 9 #1
Mr.Bill Aug 9 #2
left-of-center2012 Aug 9 #8
displacedtexan Aug 9 #15
MBS Aug 10 #24
Ohiogal Aug 9 #3
Evolve Dammit Aug 9 #16
MBS Aug 10 #25
EX500rider Aug 9 #4
Jacoby365 Aug 9 #5
NCjack Aug 9 #6
The Liberal Lion Aug 9 #7
lark Aug 9 #9
cstanleytech Aug 9 #10
lark Aug 9 #11
The Mouth Aug 9 #12
ripcord Aug 9 #13
keithbvadu2 Aug 9 #14
ripcord Aug 9 #17
KY_EnviroGuy Aug 9 #18
ripcord Aug 9 #19
KY_EnviroGuy Aug 9 #20
ripcord Aug 9 #21
nitpicker Aug 10 #22
Mike_DuBois Aug 10 #23
AJT Aug 10 #26
left-of-center2012 Aug 10 #27
AJT Aug 10 #28
Xolodno Sunday #29
JI7 Sunday #30

Response to left-of-center2012 (Original post)

Fri Aug 9, 2019, 04:07 PM

1. Trump is the dumbest SOB on the planet.

His failure to understand history might end up killing us all.

The NATO troops stationed in Germany are there for a reason - and while it may not be necessary now - it's because of the history of Germany.

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Response to Dan (Reply #1)

Fri Aug 9, 2019, 04:11 PM

2. Exactly. It would be interesting to see what would happen

if the Germans said: How soon can you be out of here?

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Response to Mr.Bill (Reply #2)

Fri Aug 9, 2019, 04:28 PM

8. How soon can you be out of here?

France did that 54 years ago.

In 1965 De Gaulle withdrew from the military portion of NATO, and he required all American bases to close.
They rejoined in 2006, but there are still no foriegn bases in France.

https://www.quora.com/Are-there-US-military-bases-in-France

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Response to Dan (Reply #1)

Fri Aug 9, 2019, 07:39 PM

15. Unfortunately, so are a lot of his followers, evidently.

We’re I Putin, I'd love to see the weapons pointing at me from Germany packed up and shipped home.

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Response to Dan (Reply #1)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 09:02 AM

24. +10,000

The evil of this administration is a horror in itself - but, above all, it's the STUPIDITY, and most especially the stupidity combined with the evil, that is creating the most lasting damage to our country.

The next president is going to have a hell of a job to clean up this mess.

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Response to left-of-center2012 (Original post)

Fri Aug 9, 2019, 04:13 PM

3. He hates Markel and loves Poland's right wing government.

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Response to Ohiogal (Reply #3)

Fri Aug 9, 2019, 07:53 PM

16. That's how I see it as well.

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Response to Ohiogal (Reply #3)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 09:03 AM

25. yup, that too.

Right-wing autocrats of the world, unite.

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Response to left-of-center2012 (Original post)

Fri Aug 9, 2019, 04:13 PM

4. There is no doubt Germany has let their military readiness degrade to a alarming degree.

For example:

"Among the failures: none of Germany’s submarines is operational, only four of its 128 Eurofighter jets are combat-ready and the army is short dozens of tanks and armored vehicles needed for NATO missions.

In addition, troops are short on the basics: body armor, night vision gear and cold-weather clothing.

The situation is so dire that 19 helicopter pilots from Germany’s Bundeswehr were forced to turn in their flight licenses because of a lack of training time.
The reason: not enough helicopters for the pilots to fly."




https://www.stripes.com/news/as-germany-prepares-for-nato-crisis-response-role-its-military-readiness-is-abysmal-1.527253

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Response to left-of-center2012 (Original post)

Fri Aug 9, 2019, 04:18 PM

5. Okay, Poland's 2% is worth what, about $12 Billion?

Versus Germany's 1.3% which is about $52 Billion. I guess The Orange Maggot isn't very good at math.

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Response to left-of-center2012 (Original post)

Fri Aug 9, 2019, 04:18 PM

6. We don't need to go to Poland.

cockholster#45 should beg Putin to reduce his military and bring Russian soldiers home. And, the rest of the world can join in a simultaneous reduction to make all nations more comfortable.

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Response to left-of-center2012 (Original post)

Fri Aug 9, 2019, 04:22 PM

7. Too bad we here in America

Can't give more priority to domestic programs than our over-bloated and wholly unnecessary military budget. Hopefully Germany tells trump to go fuck himself.

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Response to left-of-center2012 (Original post)

Fri Aug 9, 2019, 04:56 PM

9. Damn, it's so clear drumpf is trying to recreate conditions so Russia can invade Germany.

It's never been more clear that PUtin is pulling his strings and he's really putting Russia First, not America at all.

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Response to lark (Reply #9)

Fri Aug 9, 2019, 05:16 PM

10. I do not think its being done so Russia can invade Germany rather the intent is to weaken NATO

enough to force it to either dissolve or weaken its ability and thereby its resolve to counter Russian goals at retaking certain territories that used to be part of the USSR.

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Response to cstanleytech (Reply #10)

Fri Aug 9, 2019, 05:25 PM

11. I think you have described the short term goals and I do agree.

He wants the west to be unable to respond. I doubt PUtin's goals end there, though.

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Response to left-of-center2012 (Original post)

Fri Aug 9, 2019, 05:33 PM

12. Just. Bring. Them. Back.

The Germans have plenty of money for their own defense, we owe them nothing.

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Response to left-of-center2012 (Original post)

Fri Aug 9, 2019, 06:51 PM

13. Germany needs to live up to their treaty obligations

President Obama pushed NATO to keep their word but they feel comfortable reneging on the treaty.

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Response to left-of-center2012 (Original post)

Fri Aug 9, 2019, 07:27 PM

14. How much can Poland afford to pay?

How much can Poland afford to pay?

Probably lots of foreign economic grants to make it look like they are paying.

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Response to keithbvadu2 (Reply #14)

Fri Aug 9, 2019, 08:06 PM

17. The NATO treaty calls for the members to spend 2% of the gdp on defense

It isn't complicated, if they aren't spending 2% they are in violation of the treaty.

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Response to ripcord (Reply #17)

Fri Aug 9, 2019, 10:35 PM

18. "Calls for" or "requires"?

Post #5 makes a good point:

Poland's 2% is worth what, about $12 Billion?

Versus Germany's 1.3% which is about $52 Billion.


Perhaps Germany is saying due to our high GDP, in proportion we feel we're doing enough.

...

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Response to KY_EnviroGuy (Reply #18)

Fri Aug 9, 2019, 10:57 PM

19. So what about the overwelming US contributions?

Should the US be able to feel like cutting back to the levels of the other countries in the alliance? I have never been able to figure out why people think the US should be required to uphold its treaty obligations while other countries weasel out.

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Response to ripcord (Reply #19)

Fri Aug 9, 2019, 11:12 PM

20. Good point but are we required to in the treaty or do so voluntarily?

My impression is the U.S. bases those decisions on protection of economic interests, and it also essentially allows us to be in charge.

I've had the strong impression in the past that many of the smaller nations have such desperate domestic needs that they can't afford to meet the obligation so we cover for them.

Been a while since I've studied this issue. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.......

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Response to KY_EnviroGuy (Reply #20)

Fri Aug 9, 2019, 11:31 PM

21. Would you be happy if the US scaled back its contributions to only the treaty levels?

People don't take into account that all the troops in the US are part of the NATO contribution since the US is a NATO country just the same as German troops in Germany. I don't think it is out of line to expect our allies to meet the treaty obligations they agreed to, they should be more committed to their security than the US not less.

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Response to left-of-center2012 (Original post)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 08:48 AM

23. To be a member of NATO, countries agree to 2% military spending

Germany has been out of treaty compliance for a long time.

Stopped clocks and all that.

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Response to left-of-center2012 (Original post)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 10:09 AM

26. Does he have anywhere in Poland that can house them?

There is a lot of peripheral support needed also. Has he even talked to the leaders of Poland?

By the time any of this can start he won't be president.

He is destroying any trust that our European allies have with us. They are being jerked around and will never believe in our support again.

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Response to AJT (Reply #26)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 10:20 AM

27. Poland has offered to build a "Fort Trump"

Fort Trump? The Pentagon Takes a Step Toward Establishing Base in Poland

Polish President Andrzej Duda floated the idea for a new, permanent military base to President Donald Trump in-person during a trip to Washington in September.

His selling points? The Polish government would pay $2 billion to the United States and, he joked, the base would be named “Fort Trump.”

https://time.com/5551061/poland-military-base-fort-trump/

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Response to left-of-center2012 (Reply #27)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 10:58 AM

28. This won't even begin to happen while he is president.

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Response to left-of-center2012 (Original post)

Sun Aug 11, 2019, 01:48 AM

29. The main nations of NATO, I think have had enough of NATO.

In my opinion;

1. They are tired of the US calling the shots and would prefer an EU military.

2. GWB went on a massive NATO expansion of nations....nations the original signatories weren't exactly too keen on defending. Particularly when you promise membership to some very corrupt nations.

3. GWB used NATO for his war in Iraq.

4. The fiasco in Libya. I don't blame Obama, he was working with the hand he was dealt with. But the US no longer has any appetite for any more Mid-East adventures, thanks to GWB.

5. This is no longer about East vs. West Europe. Other nations are rising around the world.

Trump making reckless demands in a very precarious situation with NATO....will eventually result in the end of NATO. It won't be during his "term", but the fire has been lit.

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Response to left-of-center2012 (Original post)

Sun Aug 11, 2019, 04:45 AM

30. stupid fucking asshole

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