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Tue May 14, 2019, 03:39 PM

Maine Senate reverses course, ends religious exemption for vaccines

Source: Portland Press Herald

AUGUSTA — The Maine Senate voted 18-17 Tuesday to remove religious exemptions from the state’s school vaccination law.

The vote followed an impassioned debate by opponents to the shift, who said the law would send thousands of families packing while doing little to improve public health or protect children from preventable diseases.

The mostly party-line vote, with Republicans in opposition and Democrats favoring the change, saw three Democrats join with Republicans in a failed effort to preserve the religious exemption. But one Democrat who supported the exemption in a vote last week changed his position on Tuesday, altering the results.

“We are pushing religious people out of our great state,” said Sen. Lisa Kiem, R-Rumford prior to the vote. “And we will also be closing the door on religious people who may consider making Maine their home. We are fooling ourselves if we don’t believe an exodus would come about.”

<more>

Read more: https://www.pressherald.com/2019/05/14/maine-senate-reverses-course-ends-religious-exemption-for-vaccines/



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Reply Maine Senate reverses course, ends religious exemption for vaccines (Original post)
jpak Tuesday OP
rurallib Tuesday #1
progree Tuesday #5
SWBTATTReg Tuesday #6
progree Tuesday #14
SWBTATTReg Tuesday #15
Maine-i-acs Tuesday #2
MyOwnPeace Tuesday #8
Maggiemayhem Tuesday #3
jmowreader Tuesday #9
TomSlick Tuesday #17
jmowreader Tuesday #18
TomSlick Tuesday #19
jmowreader Tuesday #20
TomSlick Tuesday #22
AZ8theist Wednesday #24
Jedi Guy Wednesday #25
TomSlick Wednesday #26
Jedi Guy Wednesday #27
TomSlick Wednesday #28
AZ8theist Thursday #29
Jedi Guy Thursday #30
AZ8theist Saturday #31
Jedi Guy Saturday #32
AZ8theist Sunday #33
Jedi Guy Sunday #34
AZ8theist Sunday #35
Jedi Guy Sunday #36
The Mouth Tuesday #4
Oppaloopa Tuesday #7
johannsyah Tuesday #10
perdita9 Tuesday #11
Sgent Sunday #37
Hulk Tuesday #12
Staph Tuesday #13
SWBTATTReg Tuesday #16
hatrack Tuesday #21
Sgent Sunday #38
LogicFirst Tuesday #23

Response to jpak (Original post)

Tue May 14, 2019, 03:41 PM

1. "We are pushing religious people out of our great state,"

She said that like it was a bad thing.

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Response to rurallib (Reply #1)

Tue May 14, 2019, 04:12 PM

5. "She said that like it was a bad thing" -- it is for the other 49 states. We don't want them either

Last edited Tue May 14, 2019, 07:28 PM - Edit history (1)

"We are pushing religious people out of our great state,"

She said that like it was a bad thing
.

EDITED TO ADD after #6 below

To clarify, I'm not talking about all religious people, but rather the very small nutter subset that would leave a state because it doesn't have a religious exemption from vaccinations that are needed to safeguard our public health.

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Response to progree (Reply #5)

Tue May 14, 2019, 04:32 PM

6. Kind of overreacting, eh? nt

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Response to SWBTATTReg (Reply #6)

Tue May 14, 2019, 07:26 PM

14. Actually, I was underreacting. My true reaction is that they can go fuck themselves

I'm not talking about all religious people, but rather the very small nutter subset that would leave a state because it doesn't have a religious exemption from vaccinations that are needed to safeguard our public health.

There are also non-religious people who are anti-vaccination and they can do likewise (some states allow "moral" objections as well).

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Response to progree (Reply #14)

Tue May 14, 2019, 07:31 PM

15. You're exactly right. I was pointing that out exactly, a nutter subset that would actually move ...

because of this, kind of an overreaction, leave their jobs, homes, etc., all for this, which has (vaccines) proven millions of times better than nothing. I'd prefer to not take the chance and die, vs. taking the chance on getting something (heaven forbid) and dying. Plain and simple. I do understand the argument that some reject due to their morality, or religion, but I wouldn't put that number as being very large in number. Take care!

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Response to jpak (Original post)

Tue May 14, 2019, 03:45 PM

2. Better than wheeling them out feet-first on a gurney, Lisa.

Along with a few vulnerable individuals killed off as bycatch in the name of "religious freedom".

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Response to Maine-i-acs (Reply #2)

Tue May 14, 2019, 05:29 PM

8. You got THAT right!!!!!

Summed it up beautifully!

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Response to jpak (Original post)

Tue May 14, 2019, 03:53 PM

3. Not all religious people oppose vaccines but some churches do.

This stuff is all unscientific and conspiracy driven. We have diseases that were effectively wiped out recurring because of unfounded fear of vaccines.

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Response to Maggiemayhem (Reply #3)

Tue May 14, 2019, 05:40 PM

9. The religious objection isn't just "fear"

Some vaccines are produced in cell lines that came from aborted fetuses.

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Response to jmowreader (Reply #9)

Tue May 14, 2019, 09:06 PM

17. And refusing vaccines - and endangering actual children - will unabort the fetuses?

The cell lines were developed years ago. An omniscient God would not expect people to endanger their health and the public health as a protest againt something that happened years ago and cannot now be undone.

Even if you are rabid anti-choice, life is full of times when you must choose the lesser of evils.

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Response to TomSlick (Reply #17)

Tue May 14, 2019, 09:13 PM

18. I agree

Unfortunately, I'm not the one refusing to vaccinate his kid because I say a book that contains this:

Numbers 5.11-29
11 Then the Lord said to Moses,
12 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘If a man’s wife goes astray and is unfaithful to him
13 so that another man has sexual relations with her, and this is hidden from her husband and her impurity is undetected (since there is no witness against her and she has not been caught in the act),
14 and if feelings of jealousy come over her husband and he suspects his wife and she is impure—or if he is jealous and suspects her even though she is not impure—
15 then he is to take his wife to the priest. He must also take an offering of a tenth of an ephah[a] of barley flour on her behalf. He must not pour olive oil on it or put incense on it, because it is a grain offering for jealousy, a reminder-offering to draw attention to wrongdoing.

16 “‘The priest shall bring her and have her stand before the Lord.
17 Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water.
18 After the priest has had the woman stand before the Lord, he shall loosen her hair and place in her hands the reminder-offering, the grain offering for jealousy, while he himself holds the bitter water that brings a curse.
19 Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, “If no other man has had sexual relations with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you.
20 But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband”—
21 here the priest is to put the woman under this curse—“may the Lord cause you to become a curse among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell.
22 May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.”

“‘Then the woman is to say, “Amen. So be it.”

23 “‘The priest is to write these curses on a scroll and then wash them off into the bitter water.
24 He shall make the woman drink the bitter water that brings a curse, and this water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering will enter her.
25 The priest is to take from her hands the grain offering for jealousy, wave it before the Lord and bring it to the altar.
26 The priest is then to take a handful of the grain offering as a memorial[c] offering and burn it on the altar; after that, he is to have the woman drink the water.
27 If she has made herself impure and been unfaithful to her husband, this will be the result: When she is made to drink the water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering, it will enter her, her abdomen will swell and her womb will miscarry, and she will become a curse.
28 If, however, the woman has not made herself impure, but is clean, she will be cleared of guilt and will be able to have children.

29 “‘This, then, is the law of jealousy when a woman goes astray and makes herself impure while married to her husband,


...is against abortion.

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Response to jmowreader (Reply #18)

Tue May 14, 2019, 09:19 PM

19. A truly weird passage.

But doesn't it say the bitter water will cause an abortion?

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Response to TomSlick (Reply #19)

Tue May 14, 2019, 09:22 PM

20. The term they use is "miscarriage"

But yeah, that's exactly the point: if you find one of your wives having sex with another guy, you take her to the priest and he performs this chemical abortion on her.

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Response to jmowreader (Reply #20)

Tue May 14, 2019, 09:30 PM

22. Oh, I've GOT to ask my anti-choice church folks about the passage.

Thanks.

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Response to TomSlick (Reply #22)

Wed May 15, 2019, 05:36 AM

24. Better ask them about all of the other Buy-bull passages where god orders abortions:

Numbers 31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones.
Deuteronomy 2:34 utterly destroyed the men and the women and the little ones.
Deuteronomy 28:53 And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters.
I Samuel 15:3 slay both man and woman, infant and suckling.
2 Kings 8:12 dash their children, and rip up their women with child.
2 Kings 15:16 all the women therein that were with child he ripped up.
Isaiah 13:16 Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled and their wives ravished.
Isaiah 13:18 They shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eyes shall not spare children.
Lamentations 2:20 Shall the women eat their fruit, and children.
Ezekiel 9:6 Slay utterly old and young, both maids and little children.
Hosea 9:14 give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts.
Hosea 13:16 their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.

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Response to AZ8theist (Reply #24)

Wed May 15, 2019, 10:01 AM

25. The only one of those that's even close to abortion is Hosea 9:14.

The rest are plainly talking about killing children who have already been born or pregnant women. How are you interpreting that as abortion?

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Response to Jedi Guy (Reply #25)

Wed May 15, 2019, 09:26 PM

26. Concur.

The Numbers 5 passage is interesting.

As I understand the process, if a man accused his wife of adultery, her choices were (1) admit to adultery and be stoned or (2) risk the trial by ordeal of the "bitter water." It seems pretty clear to me that the "bitter water" was something other than water and dust from the floor. So, the priests were allowed - commanded even - to conduct a chemical abortion against the woman's will.

Of course, it also occurs to me that I could be reading this exactly backwards. It might be that the idea was that a woman accused of adultery was offered a trial by ordeal involving the drinking of water with really nothing more than floor dust mixed in. If, not surprisingly, there was no adverse reaction, she was pronounced innocent. If God didn't demonstrate her guilt by a reaction that cannot be explained absent divine intervention, then she is innocent. Maybe, it's just a way to tell jealous husband's to chill.

Interesting, huh?

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Response to TomSlick (Reply #26)

Wed May 15, 2019, 09:54 PM

27. To me it kinda seemed similar to what some religious sects do with snakes.

If the snake bites you, clearly you had some hidden sin and the snake was the instrument God used to punish you. If the snake doesn't bite you, you and God are cool. If the woman drinks the "bitter water" and nothing happens, she's fine. If she drinks it and has a reaction of some kind, God is highlighting her guilt and she'll be less fine.

Bronze Age jurisprudence... let's just say it's good that it's no longer a thing.

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Response to Jedi Guy (Reply #27)

Wed May 15, 2019, 10:05 PM

28. The analogy is correct IF the "bitter water" really was an abortifacient.

If it really was just water with floor dust mixed in, then the analogy is not apt.

Poisonous snakes are - well - poisonous. "Taking up serpents" is inherently dangerous - that's the point. Drinking dust-fouled water, not so much.

I'm warming to the idea that the whole thing was a scam as a means of clearing woman from the accusations of jealous husbands.

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Response to Jedi Guy (Reply #25)

Thu May 16, 2019, 09:16 PM

29. "and their women WITH CHILD shall be ripped up"

Sounds like abortion to me...

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Response to AZ8theist (Reply #29)

Thu May 16, 2019, 09:48 PM

30. Sounds like killing a pregnant woman, which is quite a bit different from abortion. N/T

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Response to Jedi Guy (Reply #30)

Sat May 18, 2019, 07:07 AM

31. Semantics.

You interpret your bible your way, and I'll interpret your buy bull my way...

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Response to AZ8theist (Reply #31)

Sat May 18, 2019, 07:49 AM

32. Not really semantics, no.

You see, killing a pregnant woman results in the death of both her and the fetus. Abortion doesn't. So they're really not the same thing at all. You can keep insisting that they are, but that doesn't make it so.

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Response to Jedi Guy (Reply #32)

Sun May 19, 2019, 06:37 PM

33. Nope.

Last edited Sun May 19, 2019, 07:09 PM - Edit history (1)

Bible interpretation. There's a whole cottage industry called apologetics dedicated to it...

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Response to AZ8theist (Reply #33)

Sun May 19, 2019, 07:04 PM

34. So in your mind, killing a pregnant woman is the same as performing an abortion?

That's the argument you seem to be making here, unless I'm misunderstanding you. But if that is indeed the argument you're making, you're equating abortion to murder, which is not exactly a progressive position.

This isn't a matter of interpretation, no matter how much you insist otherwise.

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Response to Jedi Guy (Reply #34)

Sun May 19, 2019, 07:18 PM

35. You missed my point completly.

My interpretation of that bible passage is that GOD ORDERED ABORTIONS. Thats my opinion of the phrase "ripped up". An abortion. Your interpretation may be different. Thats the beauty of the bible. It's a book of nonsense that can be interpreted multiple ways. Everyone can be correct or incorrect in what they see in a passage.
My only point is the hypocrisy of so-called Christians who view abortion as murder when their own god ordered it in the bible. Personally, the decision on abortion should be the womans ALONE as she sees fit.

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Response to AZ8theist (Reply #35)

Sun May 19, 2019, 08:33 PM

36. And as I pointed out initially, only one of those verses seems even close to talking about abortion.

The rest are clearly referring to the killing of adults and children who have already been born. Your interpretation is extremely tenuous and doesn't make any sense at all. From what you've said here, it seems to me that you're interpreting it that way because you want to throw it in the faces of pro-life Christians, not because it makes any logical sense.

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Response to jpak (Original post)

Tue May 14, 2019, 03:58 PM

4. The only place religious nutters belong

is in a 3rd world, backward theocracy.

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Response to The Mouth (Reply #4)

Tue May 14, 2019, 05:14 PM

7. Wow

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Response to jpak (Original post)

Tue May 14, 2019, 05:50 PM

10. That was close

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Response to jpak (Original post)

Tue May 14, 2019, 05:52 PM

11. How and why are religions against vaccines?

I don't hear about these people turning down anesthesia during surgery

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Response to perdita9 (Reply #11)

Sun May 19, 2019, 09:18 PM

37. There is one vaccine (chickenpox)

that was created using an aborted stem cell line from the 60's. No organized religion opposes vaccination on that basis, but individuals and/or individual churches might.

The rest I think are not so much religious objections but due to isolation. The ultra-orthodox Jews who represent the large majority of the measles virus spread in NY don't object for religious reasons, but due to their isolation and being fed anti-vax propaganda. Add to that their distrust of authority...

That said, they may use the "religious" exemption to get around vaccine requirements.

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Response to jpak (Original post)

Tue May 14, 2019, 05:52 PM

12. Good first step

Next let’s take away their tax exempt status This is a farce.

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Response to jpak (Original post)

Tue May 14, 2019, 05:54 PM

13. I'm quite proud of West Virginians.

We have had no exemption but medical issues for vaccinations in our state for decades. When Republicans took over the state legislature a few years ago, they tried to change the law to allow religious and philosophical exemptions. The people of the state protested and the original law still stands.

BTW, there are currently no cases of measles in West Virginia!


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Response to Staph (Reply #13)

Tue May 14, 2019, 07:31 PM

16. Smart and proof!! NT

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Response to Staph (Reply #13)

Tue May 14, 2019, 09:26 PM

21. Well good for the Mountain State!

I had no idea - you're well ahead of our neck of the woods, with religious creepy-crawlies promulgating all kinds of medically hazardous bullshit legislation.

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Response to Staph (Reply #13)

Sun May 19, 2019, 09:20 PM

38. Right there with you

as a Mississippi native.

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Response to jpak (Original post)

Tue May 14, 2019, 10:46 PM

23. Good

Public health before religion.

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