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Sat Sep 15, 2012, 12:50 AM

Anti-Muslim Film Figure Also Runs Leading Anti-Mormon Site

Source: Buzzfeed


Klein's “Mormon Info” compares sacramental garb to the clothes of a “gay Irish baker.”

Steve Klein, one of the men behind the anti-Muslim video tied to riots in the Middle East and North Africa, doesn't restrict his fervor to attacks on Islam: He also runs one of the most prominent anti-Mormon sites on the web.

Klein, an insurance agent and Christian activist from California, has become the face of the movie, "Innocence of Muslims," promoting it in the press as movie's director is, reportedly, in hiding.

His most recent foray into religious provocation though, was hardly his first. In 1977, Klein founded a group called Courageous Christians United, whose main focus is to expose Mormonism and Islam — both "false religions" and "cults" according to Klein — with protests outside their places of worship, low-rent media productions like the now-viral Youtube video, and SEO-efficient web properties.

To accomplish this, the group runs MormonInfo.org, an expansive collection of anti-Mormon content whose benign URL belies the intensity of its mission. In addition to boilerplate criticism of the church's doctrines and policies, the site once managed to sneak an activist into a Mormon temple — which, after an initial public tour, are only open to devout Latter-day Saints — and record one of the ceremonies. The site posted the video to YouTube under the headline, "Welcome to Mitt Romney's World," and described the ceremonial garb worn in the temple as that of a "gay Irish baker."

Romney has found himself this week defending Klein's right to produce inflammatory attacks on another religious minority, Islam, and has strongly criticized the Cairo Embassy for apologized to outraged Muslims for the video.


Read more: http://www.buzzfeed.com/mckaycoppins/anti-muslim-filmmaker-also-runs-leading-anti-mormo



this is getting weirder and weirder

50 replies, 9554 views

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Reply Anti-Muslim Film Figure Also Runs Leading Anti-Mormon Site (Original post)
trailmonkee Sep 2012 OP
CoffeeCat Sep 2012 #1
azurnoir Sep 2012 #9
Tx4obama Sep 2012 #12
DRoseDARs Sep 2012 #13
dipsydoodle Sep 2012 #15
SoapBox Sep 2012 #2
Indpndnt Sep 2012 #3
kestrel91316 Sep 2012 #4
SoapBox Sep 2012 #5
azurnoir Sep 2012 #10
hue Sep 2012 #29
Heather MC Sep 2012 #6
trailmonkee Sep 2012 #7
SoapBox Sep 2012 #11
alcibiades_mystery Sep 2012 #8
Spitfire of ATJ Sep 2012 #14
dipsydoodle Sep 2012 #16
Scootaloo Sep 2012 #18
Bluenorthwest Sep 2012 #22
justiceischeap Sep 2012 #25
oberliner Sep 2012 #26
Scootaloo Sep 2012 #27
Vinnie From Indy Sep 2012 #40
Scootaloo Sep 2012 #17
Bluenorthwest Sep 2012 #23
Scootaloo Sep 2012 #24
Bluenorthwest Sep 2012 #28
Scootaloo Sep 2012 #32
Ash_F Sep 2012 #34
Igel Sep 2012 #37
Ash_F Sep 2012 #33
Posteritatis Sep 2012 #42
Kolesar Sep 2012 #19
Igel Sep 2012 #38
notadmblnd Sep 2012 #20
SoapBox Sep 2012 #35
nanabugg Sep 2012 #21
hue Sep 2012 #30
Strelnikov_ Sep 2012 #41
Pterodactyl Sep 2012 #45
rayofreason Sep 2012 #50
d_r Sep 2012 #31
rayofreason Sep 2012 #36
Igel Sep 2012 #39
Posteritatis Sep 2012 #43
octothorpe Sep 2012 #44
rayofreason Sep 2012 #48
Pterodactyl Sep 2012 #47
panzerfaust Sep 2012 #46
rayofreason Sep 2012 #49

Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Sat Sep 15, 2012, 12:56 AM

1. Is it true that one of the "actors"...

...in this film also has done porn films before? Anyone hear that? This whole things gets nuttier by the hour.

Someone had info about that on their Facebook.

If anyone is interested, I can find a link.

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Response to CoffeeCat (Reply #1)

Sat Sep 15, 2012, 01:15 AM

9. If true that's about the most unsurprising thing about this

I'd believe it

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Response to CoffeeCat (Reply #1)

Sat Sep 15, 2012, 01:43 AM

12. The 'DIRECTOR' has a softcore porn past, haven't heard about any actor yet. See link below


Alan Roberts & 'Innocence Of Muslims': Softcore Porn Director Linked To Anti-Islam Film
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/14/alan-roberts-innocence-of-muslims_n_1885758.html

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Response to CoffeeCat (Reply #1)

Sat Sep 15, 2012, 02:31 AM

13. Yes it's true. A gay porn actor actually. And misled by the film's producers.

http://joemygod.blogspot.com/2012/09/gay-porn-actor-tim-dax-talks-to-us.html

The statement received by Joe.My.God from the individual by email:
i can tell you i auditioned for a movie called Desert Storm that was about Ancient Warriors. My character was called Sampson on the paper with a few lines I got each day upon arriving on set. We never saw a full script or any lines after the day we shot them. Many questions were asked regarding absurdity of lines and situations. Sam the producer who I believed to be, but not certain as Egyptian. His reply would always to work with what we were given as he wrote the script. The clip that I saw part of today for the first time is questionable as to being my voice. The voice over work is dubious at best. a week and a half of work, 75 bucks a day & lunch. ; ) Can't tell you anymore than that other than I'm am very much NOT anti muslim. one world one love. Tim.

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Response to DRoseDARs (Reply #13)

Sat Sep 15, 2012, 04:16 AM

15. I'd already read

that their voices had been overdubbed leading the actors taking part to discredit their own parts in the film.

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Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Sat Sep 15, 2012, 12:58 AM

2. ROFL

So Mittens...defend this freak now!




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Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Sat Sep 15, 2012, 12:58 AM

3. This is....What is this?

Is Klein being used? Is he using others? Or is he just a nut (well, yeah!) who thinks Willard is better than the president, so he'll put up with having a Mormon as his candidate? I'm very curious now. This is playing out so very oddly.

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Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Sat Sep 15, 2012, 12:58 AM

4. And THIS, sportsfans, is probably why Rmoney flipflopped and

 

decided the film was probably not such a good thing today. He found out the guy was anti-Mormon.

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #4)

Sat Sep 15, 2012, 01:01 AM

5. Bingo!

Or should I say...DOH!



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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #4)

Sat Sep 15, 2012, 01:17 AM

10. yep

Mittens is gunna get whiplash if he doesn't have already

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #4)

Sat Sep 15, 2012, 08:27 AM

29. As President Obama says re: Rmoney, "Shoot first aim later!"

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Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Sat Sep 15, 2012, 01:08 AM

6. How can you breath day to day with all that hate inside you

I bet if he got pricked with a pin hot air would blow out of his gut
I bet his farts can start a forrest fire.
I bet he doesn't have blood in his veins, just sludge thick green toxic.
I bet when he gets a paper cut a hazmat team has to be called in
I bet when he was born his mother suffered 3rd degree burns
I bet he has never met a gay, a muslim, or a morman
I bet he is a dipshit
I bet $10,000 all of the above is true
`

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Response to Heather MC (Reply #6)

Sat Sep 15, 2012, 01:11 AM

7. obviously his mustache works as some sort of filter.... I am guessing that is how.

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Response to trailmonkee (Reply #7)

Sat Sep 15, 2012, 01:22 AM

11. Creepy

This freak AND that crazy SOB Jones in FL...both with the mustache!

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Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Sat Sep 15, 2012, 01:11 AM

8. This is Rove as the day is long

 

Gimme a fucking break. The bonus prize being that Romney should be viewed as a victim? Come on.

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Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Sat Sep 15, 2012, 03:39 AM

14. Oh sheeze,...that picture...

 

[img][/img]

The bricks, the expression,...looks like a scene from a cheezy 70s era crime show where the local mob kingpin is about to get taken out by the hitman.

Caption: "Whatever he's paying you, I'll double it!"

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Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Sat Sep 15, 2012, 04:17 AM

16. weirder and weirder ?

Wtf does "gay Irish baker" mean ?

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Response to dipsydoodle (Reply #16)

Sat Sep 15, 2012, 05:06 AM

18. It means the man that DU'ers are rallying in support of is a bigot on several levels

 

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #18)

Sat Sep 15, 2012, 07:34 AM

22. I think you are engaqing in baseless smearing of DUers.

 

No one here supports this creep. And you know that. What you are typing is a lie, and it is divisive and disgusting.
People who make arch insinuations about others without offering evidence of their accusations are all the same.

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #18)

Sat Sep 15, 2012, 07:51 AM

25. As much as I hate bigotry, the bigots still have a right to free speech

in this country. If you call that supporting or rallying, those of us defending free speech, then maybe you should find another corral for your pony to prance in.

As a member of the LGBTQ community, I would love never to hear from the Westboro Baptist Church again but as an American who wants the continued right to say that the Phelps' brand of religion is hateful and violent, I have to support their freedom to say all the hateful, bigoted things they say.

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Response to justiceischeap (Reply #25)

Sat Sep 15, 2012, 07:54 AM

26. Also, no one has to watch this stupid video

Fred Phelps forces people to hear his hateful bigotry.

No one is being forced to watch this garbage.

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Response to justiceischeap (Reply #25)

Sat Sep 15, 2012, 07:57 AM

27. It's a pointless rallying cry; his rights to free speech are not and never were in question.

 

He's in legal hot water for fraud and parole violation, and grounds could be made for civil suits against him over this mess. But he's never been in danger of having his first amendment rights violated (At least, no more violation than we allow regarding other convicts, I suppose.)

So. His rights were never in question. This isn't Azerbaijan, he's not going to be whisked off to a secret detention center, his work will not be purged and blacklisted - at least not in the US (other states with other legal codes, who knows)

So why the yelping frenzy of support for his rights that were never in question in the first damn place?

Answer: to provide a cover for people who support the man, his film, and the rhetoric he's peddling with it.

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #27)

Sat Sep 15, 2012, 11:25 AM

40. Is Scootaloo some Scottish word for Psychic?

So you know that each and every person here on DU that reaffirms and supports the 1st Amendment rights of this filmmaker ALL support this film and its bigotry? Is that it?

Also, if you could aim your powers my direction for a few seconds, I would appreciate it. You see, I can't find my car keys right now and thought you might be able to help. Please let me know!

Cheers!

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Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Sat Sep 15, 2012, 05:05 AM

17. So I expect DU'ers to start donating cash to the guy

 

After all, he's struck a twofer, in the "people it's okay to dehumanize on DU" list!

Hey, maybe he's done one about the Roma, too! Man... DU would eat that with a fucking spoon!

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #17)

Sat Sep 15, 2012, 07:37 AM

23. What a vile comment but that's all you are doing here, making false accusations

 

and smearing others with them. What a really horrid thing to say.

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #23)

Sat Sep 15, 2012, 07:48 AM

24. No, a horrid thing to say is that Muslims are "vermin."

 

But that's okay.

it's a horrid thing to say a film that purports that the only good Muslim is a dead Muslim, will be a "cult classic."

But that's okay too.

It's a horrid thing to say "muslims are animals who don't believe in free speech"

But that is also okay.

It's a horrid thing to rally in support of someone's right to hate speech, while also rallying against teachers' right to free speech.

But that's just how it goes.

It's apparently worse to point out the perpetuation of and support for bigotry among the DU community, than it is to be one of the people perpetuating and supporting bigotry on DU.

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #24)

Sat Sep 15, 2012, 08:11 AM

28. I think it is creepy to use unattributed quotes and claim DU said them.

 

This place is wide open. There are all sorts of people here. It is simply wrong, always, to claim that what some ahole said was what 'the community' said. Very, very wrong. It is in fact what the right wing does to Muslims, they take a quote from some radical hate monger and claim 'they' say this.
You type what you wish, claim 'DU said it' and then type lots of 'but that's ok' which you ascribe to DU, although it is just you typing dialog and putting in the mouth of this site, as if the site had a single voice, as if right wingers do not come here and say all manner of bullshit.
You claim DUers rallied in support of hate speech AND against teachers? That is a lie. Show your proof of your accusations.
Vague insinuations, ascribing the actions of an individual to others 'like' them, claiming group accountablity for the actions of mean or bigoted people, these things are what the right does.
Your entire display here is disrespectful to others, to Islam, to the minority groups whose names you are exploiting even as you trash others.
I asked you once for links to support your slamming of this community, what you offered was your own editorializing. You are all over DU claiming DU rallies for this scum, saying DU will financially support him, you are saying you 'expect to see 'Free Bassily' sig lines on DU. This is unsubstantied trash talk. You expect such a delusional thing, which would be against the rules of DU and lead to the poster being ppr'd? Are you unfamiliar with the rules of DU? You claim Skinner would allow fundraising for right wing hate mongers? These are huge accusations you are leveling without bothering to so much as show who said what where. You should point out, specifics so we can all altert and contact admins. So I ask you again for the specifics.

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #28)

Sat Sep 15, 2012, 08:38 AM

32. Oh yes. I'm CERTAIN it's all just one-shot right-wing trolls.

 

That's the ticket.

I do hold the community as a whole accountable. Because it's the community that's tolerating it. See, hatred towards some groups gets tamped out almost as soon as its posted. Which is good. Hatred against other groups... Not so much. If you want to imagine I'm just making up the statements above, go right ahead - but I'd suggest reading a few related threads for yourself, since calling out specific Du'ers across threads is prohibited, last I checked.

Also see my post above. Why the need for thread, after thread, after thread, after thread, defending this guy's right to make a film that portrays Muslims - not Islam, but the people who follow it - as subhuman savages, a plague upon the earth, fit only to be "gotten rid of"? It's not as if his right to create that drek were ever actually in question. So, when DU'ers rally around him - and screw your insinuations, open the damned "latest threads" page and have a look - how does that come off?

Thankfully there's nothing so blatant as your average right-wing site. Which is my initial point. Why not be blatant? if it's going to be there, and the community is going to let it be there, then why bother being subtle about it? Just put a link to Pam Gellar on the front page, hawk some Walid Shoebat seminar DVD's, and clal it a damn day.

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #32)

Sat Sep 15, 2012, 09:28 AM

34. It is people with thousands and thousands of posts.

...that seem to get a continual pass these days.


I think Pavulon(from like 7 years ago ) was their original champion and forefather(hands up if you remember that pearl). That guy ran rampant for years, carefully and coyly taking only the rightwing/bigoted position on any topic he ever posted in. He managed tens of thousands of rightwing posts before one day he slipped and said something like "I am not a Liberal or a Democrat" and finally got the tombstone.

There were very few like that back in those days, not more than a handful, but they were allowed to carry on for too long. Now we have many more.

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #32)

Sat Sep 15, 2012, 10:35 AM

37. I searched this thread for "vermin." Only found it in your post.

If it's elsewhere, oh, well. There's no context. We need context.

Now, I think I would call those who did the vandalism and murdering vermin. That's certainly not all Muslims. In fact, I'd hope that the chief imam in Jerusalem, Mecca, Medina, al-Azhar, and others would join in and say that those who committed the acts of destruction and killing are worse, in fact, than the guy who made the movie.

It's one thing if outsiders insult your petty diety. It's another if alleged acolytes screw him.

Except that's not how it works: You find justification for those who are like you and make the crimes of those belonging to competing gropus to be as heinous as possible. So these Muslim vandals and murderers are going to be called "misguided"--if not immediately, then within a month or two, as soon as the shame that would occur if they were ritually insulted isn't a threat.

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #28)

Sat Sep 15, 2012, 09:16 AM

33. I don't know Blue, the thread from the other day was pretty bad

"Vague insinuations, ascribing the actions of an individual to others 'like' them, claiming group accountablity for the actions of mean or bigoted people, these things are what the right does."

You are absolutely correct in that statement. There is a lot of that kind of behavior on this site unfortunately...against Muslims. Against Christians too actually, which isn't right either, but at least majority Christians are not in as great a danger of suffering from discrimination in this country as minority Muslims.

But if you are not seeing it, I don't know what to tell you except, keep reading. And keep that quote of yours above in mind. I think DUers are mostly good and tolerant people but the site has slid a long way in the 10+ years I have been reading. I don't know if it is because the tone of country has changed or just the culture of DU itself, or lax moderation or what. But it is said to see.

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #17)

Sat Sep 15, 2012, 12:30 PM

42. Yeah, can definitely see this kicking off some major dissonance for some people

"He hates Mormons, therefore he's good! But he hates Muslims, therefore he's bad! DOES NOT COMPUTE!"

It sucks that "even if I agree with a person's stances they can still be a terrible asshole" is actually a difficult thought for so many people to form.

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Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Sat Sep 15, 2012, 05:44 AM

19. Bigots like him embarrass the Christians

Cannot he express his grace through charity and kindness, instead?

BTW, I am a skeptic/agnostic.

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Response to Kolesar (Reply #19)

Sat Sep 15, 2012, 10:39 AM

38. Most "Christians" don't have strong group identity.

Those who do put limits around what the word means. So they're Xians but most other people calling themselves Xians aren't.

When one Muslim is killed or their religion called offended there's more group solidarity than among Xians. You have to get to things like having 10 Baptists or 8 Mormons killed to find similar kinds of responses.

It's that kind of thinking that hobbles the Islamic "world." If all Muslims are in the same group, well, who likes dissing members of their group? The choice left is to say they're not really in the same group. There's no authority in Islam to make that stick. Moreover, there's an injunction--whoever cobbled together the Qur'aan saw the fractiousness of the Xian world at the time and said not to call another Muslim a non-Muslim. The killers weren't obviously apostate, so they're stuck with the great "there's only one Islam" fallacy.

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Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Sat Sep 15, 2012, 06:44 AM

20. Another report...

– The LA Times reports that Media for Christ obtained filming permits for the movie in August 2011, and Nakoula provided his Cerritos home as a set and paid the actors. Police have visited Media for Christ, according to The Guardian. The filming permit has been temporarily removed from an online database amid safety concerns raised by the FBI and the State Department. Film LA president Paul Audley also told Bloomberg the film was shot at Blue Cloud Movie Ranch in Santa Clarita.

– Another man, Steve Klein, told CNN he worked with Bacile on the movie vetting the script. As a result of his connection, Klein has become a spokesman of sorts and has given a stream of interviews. Klein is an insurance agent and self-described militant Christian activist who resides in Hemet, CA.

– There are accounts of the film being screened in June under the name Innocence Of Bin Laden. According to Klein, Nakoula wanted to give it a title that would draw in and then trick “hardcore Muslims” into watching a movie that slammed Islam. But according to Klein, no tickets were sold and Nakoula was “crushed,” the AP said. Klein told The Times “felt great” about consulting on the film.

– According to the Southern Poverty Law Center, Klein founded Courageous Christians United, which conducts protests outside abortion clinics, Mormon temples and mosques, and started Concerned Citizens for the First Amendment, which preaches against Muslims and publishes anti-Muslim propaganda.

http://www.deadline.com/2012/09/latest-on-the-anti-muslim-filmmakers-that-sparked-mid-east-violence/#more-335162

Klein is a right-wing extremist who emerged from the same axis of Islamophobia that produced Anders Behring Breivik and which takes inspiration from the writings of Robert Spencer, Pamela Geller, and Daniel Pipes.

It appears Klein (or someone who shares his name and views) is an enthusiastic commenter on Geller’s website, Atlas Shrugged, where he recently complained about Mitt Romney’s “support for a Muslim state in Israel’s Heartland.” In July 2011, Spencer’s website, Jihad Watch, promoted a rally Klein organized alongside the anti-Muslim Coptic extremist Joseph Nasrallah to demand the firing of LA County Sheriff Lee Baca, whom they painted as a dupe for Hamas.

Klein is also closely affiliated with the Christian right in California, organizing resentment against all the usual targets — Muslims, homosexuals, feminists, and even Mormons. He is a board member and founder of a group called Courageous Christians United, which promotes anti-Mormon, anti-Catholic and anti-Muslim literature (including the work of Robert Spencer) on its website. In 2002, Klein ran for the California Insurance Commissioner under the American Independent Party, an extremist fringe party linked to the militia movement, garnering a piddling 2 percent of the vote.

Klein has been closely affiliated with the Church at Kaweah, an extreme evangelical church located 70 miles southeast of Fresno that serves as a nexus of neo-Confederate, Christian Reconstructionist, and militia movement elements. The Southern Poverty Law Center produced a report on Kaweah this spring that noted Klein’s long record of activist against Muslims:

http://maxblumenthal.com/2012/09/meet-the-right-wing-extremist-behind-anti-muslim-film-that-sparked-deadly-riots/

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Response to notadmblnd (Reply #20)

Sat Sep 15, 2012, 09:28 AM

35. wow

Crazy man supreme...thanks for the post.

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Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Sat Sep 15, 2012, 07:05 AM

21. So Romney is now apologizing for "American values?" nt

 

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Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Sat Sep 15, 2012, 08:33 AM

30. This film & it's RW producers & directors demonstrates how their vile, distorted minds and hateful

behavior brings hell upon this earth!! In their minds under the rubric of "Christianity".

I'm so sick of these nutters!!

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Response to hue (Reply #30)

Sat Sep 15, 2012, 11:38 AM

41. I'm sick of all religions

IMHO belief in in sky pilots this day and age is nutty.

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Response to Strelnikov_ (Reply #41)

Sat Sep 15, 2012, 01:51 PM

45. Even Wicca?

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Response to Strelnikov_ (Reply #41)

Sat Sep 15, 2012, 04:42 PM

50. Why should you care about...

...what others believe? Moreover, religion gives meaning and comfort to billions Why should anyone look down their nose at such a gift to so many?

As long as someone doesn't try to force me to follow their religious rules, OK. Of course, out of common courtesy avoiding offense is best, like not taking your BLT into the Synagogue, whereas being forbidden to eat a BLT at all anywhere is beyond the pale. I think that way because I am Modern, but I know just how different my thinking on this is compared to the PreModern view.

The trouble is when religious belief in a culture produces major disfunction's in the real world. A society whose religion preaches against modern science is in no position to blame anyone for the poverty that comes not having a scientifically literate population. If fundamentalists of any stripe want to ignore the Theory of Evolution, without which none of modern biology makes any sense, then they cannot complain about being left behind by the biotech revolution.

So lets look at the major religions.

In the years from Herod the Great to Hadrian an apocalyptic strain dominated Judaism, leading to several revolts. That ended pretty badly for the Jews. But rabbinic Judaism shed all that stuff, mostly because it was so deadly. Today Israel is a high-tech powerhouse, even if the country does shut down for Shabbat and McDonalds has separate ordering, serving, and eating areas for meat (burgers) and dairy (shakes and ice cream).

Christian fanaticism precipitated multiple wars (which were also mixed in with others motivators - like plunder). There were atrocities such as the Children's Crusade, which ended pretty badly for those involved. But Christianity has not been a significant motivator for war is a long time - not at all in the modern period. Much of the West (particularly Europe) is actually post-Christian Pagan anyway (that has its own issues). And Christianity did not block the discovery of science and industrialism. Some argue it abetted it.

Hinduism seems to have accommodated reasonably well to modernity. Of course various nasty customs, like Sati, had to be exterminated (google Charles Napier), and more interesting customs, like tantric devotion, were shed by the people themselves (but you should see some of those 8th century temple carvings!). On the whole, India seems to be adjusting. Buddhism likewise seems to have little problem with the modern world.

Marxism is no longer a major religion, with very few true believers left, but it was destroyed by contact with reality since its promises were worldly, not otherworldly.

Confucianism also seems to have adapted to modernity, although China and Korea (south) are rapidly becoming Christian. In Korea, christians (of all types) are already a plurality and in China there may be 100 million, a factor of 10 growth in 15 years. No fundamental problem with modernity there.

That leaves the elephant in the room - Islam. Serious problems there, and what Winston Churchill wrote over a hundred years ago about "...wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live." is still true today. I am certain that eventually Islam will find its way and join the modern world, as have the other great religions. But I am pessimistic that this will happen in my lifetime. I do have very good Muslim friends, but we just don't discuss religion. And I really don't care much about their beliefs - they are simply good people and they don't try to impose anything on me. And I don't mind going to the Halal store to buy food when I make dinner and have them over. It is just simple courtesy. But I have no tolerance for the general PreModern stance of Islamists around the world.



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Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Sat Sep 15, 2012, 08:35 AM

31. Onward, Christian Soldiers



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Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Sat Sep 15, 2012, 10:08 AM

36. So where are all the Mormon riots? n/t

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Response to rayofreason (Reply #36)

Sat Sep 15, 2012, 10:48 AM

39. We wait with bated breath.

If it were baited breath, then at least we could snack while we waited.

Perhaps we can change the phrase to "we wade with bated breath."

Still, it's a useful point. People focus always on what is and what was done, as though what is missing and what other things could have been done simply shouldn't matter. For the past, I'm mostly an existentialist--no point regretting what was because it's done and can't be not-done. For the future, I'm an essentialist, and therefore look at the present to help shape the future and to the past and possible presents to help undo bad consequences and to prevent the same mistakes from recurring.

People equate the Taliban and "Xian Taliban", extremists on both sides, and yet the number of Xian "terrorists" in the Western world are fewer than the number of Muslim "terrorists" that we saw in that one incident in Benghazi. The number of anti-Western films made by Muslims annually exceed by orders of magnitude the number of anti-Islamic films made by Xians, and yet the only concern from Xians and Westerns are the anti-Islamic films and the only concern from the Muslims are the anti-Islamic films.

In this, we side not with those against hate but with those against disrespect for Islam, which is a very strange state of affairs. We're agreed that they deserve respect and that we don't. (Of course, we carefully divide the "we" in this sentence" between the "us-Westerners" and the "not-us-Westerners" so that we can think of the anti-Western films as being anti the "not-us-Westerners," as though that actually made any difference or agrees in the least with the anti-Westerner filmmakers' views.

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Response to rayofreason (Reply #36)

Sat Sep 15, 2012, 12:31 PM

43. Where are the massively impoverished, historically violently oppressed Mormon populations? (nt)

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Response to Posteritatis (Reply #43)

Sat Sep 15, 2012, 01:41 PM

44. Utah :P

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Response to Posteritatis (Reply #43)

Sat Sep 15, 2012, 03:19 PM

48. Let's start with "historically violently oppressed"...

I guess you never heard of the riots and violence at Navoo, IL (including the murder of Joseph Smith), or the 2011 Pew study finding that 46% of LDS say there is significant discrimination against Mormons in the United States (whether true or not is irrelevant - it is how they feel).

http://journalistsresource.org/studies/society/culture/mormons-america-pew-beliefs-society/

And then there is the whole suppression of polygamy bit. How culturally insensitive (along the lines of Charles Napier's cultural insensitivity). Mormons have plenty of "reasons" to be angry, and maybe some are, but they deal with it. One reason, as you have pointed out, is that they are not impoverished. There does not seem to be anything in LDS teachings or practice that is fundamentally incompatible with modernity. In fact Mormon families thrive because they are two-parent households without drugs or alcohol, and with traditions of hard work, personal responsibility, and education. Someone who grows up with those cultural traits will be successful in our society. And there is nothing in LDS teaching that calls on them to impose their religion on others, or to violently punish blasphemers, apostates, and those who "insult" the church. Hence no riots over "The Book of Mormon" play.

Now, regarding "historically violently oppressed" in the context of Muslims, this has been perpetrated primarily by...Muslims! You just have to read about the reactions of Arabs to recent Turkish statements about restoring Ottoman glory to realize that the Arab world was mostly ruled by the Turks 100 years ago, and it was not pretty. Not to mention one nasty Islamic dictator after another in so many Islamic countries (especially in the ME). Sure western countries supported some of them. The fact is that you have to do business with somebody, and if an entire cultural region is unable to create open, democratic societies you will have to deal with Kings, Sultans, Presidents-for-Life, what have you. But to blame the West for the fact that the Muslim world remains stuck with cultural norms and modes of governance that far predate the rise of the West, and which in fact were operating when Islam was still trying to conquer the West (the siege of Vienna in 1683 was the high water mark) is just silly. Islam is still aggressive, trying to expand in Africa for example. Islamists are furious at the spread of Christianity, which has grow much more rapidly than Islam among black Africans. Boko Haram in Nigeria is a good example of this (do you know what "boko haram" means?). The major reason Islamic countries don't try to conquer non-Islamic countries is that they can't, because in the entire history of Islam when they could, they did, or tried.

The real underlying issue, the deep wound to the pride, is that Islam is not top dog. How can it be that infidels essentially rule the world when Islam is the true, final, perfect, revealed word of God? Why are Islamic countries so backward? Why even those godless, pagan Hindus are developing a richer, better educated, more modern civilization than the Muslims! Someone is doing this to the Islamic world and they must be punished!!!

Worse yet, we refuse to pass blasphemy laws and we block UN action on the matter!!! When Obama asked YouTube to take down the video clip (they refused - good for them!) he signaled to the Muslim world that in fact the US government DID have some authority to censure speech. What morons. Now you have the Muslim Brotherhood calling for "prosecution" of the film makers. "Prosecution" under what law? The "Making a ludicrously idiotic low budget film that angers total assholes Act?"

Their impoverishment is their own doing, as is the violent oppression in their lives. 90% of Egyptian women have undergone FGM. How is that for violent oppression? 3/4 of Egyptians work in agriculture - in a country that imports 1/2 its food, half are functionally illiterate, and there is not a single university in Egypt that can produce an internationally competitive engineer. How is that for contributing to massive impoverishment?

If somebody in the US wants to write a book claiming that Jesus was a fiction, fine (actually several such books exist). If somebody in the US wants to write a book claiming that Mohammed was a fiction, fine as well. And if that causes radicals to riot and try to storm our embassies, I say send in some Marines with flamethowers and toast any SOB who crosses into Embassy territory. And no apologies, lame attempts to get the publisher not to print the book, or anything else that smacks of yielding to "hurt feelings."



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Response to rayofreason (Reply #36)

Sat Sep 15, 2012, 02:19 PM

47. Excellent question!

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Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Sat Sep 15, 2012, 01:55 PM

46. Ah, but as a Xrister he is saved

 

and the rest of us are going to hell.



Myself, I'll take hell.

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Response to panzerfaust (Reply #46)

Sat Sep 15, 2012, 03:22 PM

49. Good thing that wasn't a cartoon ridiculing Islam...

...only Catholicism.

Hey, maybe if Catholics take up that head-chopping thing they will get a bit more "respect" and not have "hurt feelings."

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