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Mon Dec 17, 2018, 01:35 PM

Alan Dershowitz: Michael Flynn is innocent because 'lying to the FBI is not a crime'

This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by DonViejo (a host of the Latest Breaking News forum).

Source: Rawstory

Law professor Alan Dershowitz on Monday argued that former National Security Adviser Michael Flynn should never have pleaded guilty in special counsel Robert Mueller’s Russia investigation because “lying to the FBI is not a crime.”

During an interview on Fox News, Dershowitz asserted that Flynn’s lie about speaking to the Russian ambassador regarding removing sanctions was not “material” to the Russia investigation.

“I hope the judge understands when he has the case tomorrow that Flynn did not commit a crime by lying,” Dershowitz told Fox News host Bill Hemmer. “Because the lie has to be material to the investigation. And if the FBI already knew the answer to the question and only asked him the question in order to give him an opportunity to lie, his answer — even if false — was not material to the investigation.”

“Lying to the FBI is not a crime!” the law professor added.

Read more: https://www.rawstory.com/2018/12/alan-dershowitz-michael-flynn-innocent-lying-fbi-not-crime/



Say what? What is Dershowitz trying to hide? Or has he just gone as wackadoodle as tRump?

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Reply Alan Dershowitz: Michael Flynn is innocent because 'lying to the FBI is not a crime' (Original post)
Stonepounder Dec 2018 OP
redstatebluegirl Dec 2018 #1
RKP5637 Dec 2018 #6
Jopin Klobe Dec 2018 #14
Cicada Dec 2018 #21
William Seger Dec 2018 #44
Cicada Dec 2018 #48
at140 Dec 2018 #30
redstatebluegirl Dec 2018 #33
Cicada Dec 2018 #42
irisblue Dec 2018 #41
louis c Dec 2018 #2
YessirAtsaFact Dec 2018 #22
The Velveteen Ocelot Dec 2018 #3
zipplewrath Dec 2018 #10
louis c Dec 2018 #31
RKP5637 Dec 2018 #12
zipplewrath Dec 2018 #4
SWBTATTReg Dec 2018 #8
lark Dec 2018 #5
Cicada Dec 2018 #13
lark Dec 2018 #18
titaniumsalute Dec 2018 #39
Bernardo de La Paz Dec 2018 #47
Bernardo de La Paz Dec 2018 #49
Just a Weirdo Dec 2018 #19
Cicada Dec 2018 #40
Post removed Dec 2018 #27
irisblue Dec 2018 #43
AZ8theist Dec 2018 #29
Cicada Dec 2018 #34
Perseus Dec 2018 #46
Perseus Dec 2018 #45
C_U_L8R Dec 2018 #7
unblock Dec 2018 #9
SHRED Dec 2018 #11
Achilleaze Dec 2018 #15
Tom Rinaldo Dec 2018 #16
zaj Dec 2018 #17
Gothmog Dec 2018 #20
ck4829 Dec 2018 #23
pecosbob Dec 2018 #24
thucythucy Dec 2018 #25
jpak Dec 2018 #26
matt819 Dec 2018 #28
ffr Dec 2018 #32
Yavin4 Dec 2018 #35
laserhaas Dec 2018 #36
kennetha Dec 2018 #37
0rganism Dec 2018 #38
DonViejo Dec 2018 #50

Response to Stonepounder (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 01:36 PM

1. What law school did this moron graduate from.

You know since 45 came to the office I have used the term moron more than I ever have. I need to find a new word for ignorant.

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Response to redstatebluegirl (Reply #1)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 01:39 PM

6. Maybe "Trump U."

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Response to redstatebluegirl (Reply #1)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 01:42 PM

14. Here's the term/word ...

... "Republican" ...

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Response to redstatebluegirl (Reply #1)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 01:48 PM

21. Lying must be "material" to be perjury, maybe he's right here

Law professors are insanely smart. No one should lightly dismiss what they say.

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Response to Cicada (Reply #21)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 02:18 PM

44. It's material because lying implies "guilty knowledge"

... which is a requirement for any conviction for perjury, fraud, conspiracy, unregistered foreign agent, etc.

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Response to William Seger (Reply #44)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 02:33 PM

48. There are requirements in addition to "guilty knowledge"

The lie has to be about something “material” to the investigation whether you feel guilty as hell or not. Dershowitz makes the interesting claim that if the investigators knew the correct answer, to a 100% certainty, no matter what answer Flynn gave, the Flynn’s answer would not “matter” to the investigation. In other words that it was not “material.” Dershowitz gave a ver counterintuitive answer, one almost no one else would think of. That’s why he was a law professor while I am just another average chump.

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Response to redstatebluegirl (Reply #1)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 01:54 PM

30. Professor Dershowitz has taught law at Harvard for decades

So I would not denigrate his law knowledge off-handedly.
That does not mean he can't be wrong sometimes.

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Response to at140 (Reply #30)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 02:03 PM

33. Well I refuse to call this guy "Professor" he isn't that smart.

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Response to redstatebluegirl (Reply #33)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 02:13 PM

42. I read a book of his columns. He is a genius.

I got perfect scores on a couple ETS admissions tests. Close to perfect on others. After reading a book of columns by Dershowitz I have no doubt he is smarter than I am. Alan Dershowitz is a genius.

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Response to redstatebluegirl (Reply #1)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 02:12 PM

41. More worrying to me, where is he teaching Law?

TAF?

His wiki sez..."Dershowitz retired from teaching at Harvard Law in December 2013."

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Response to Stonepounder (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 01:36 PM

2. Alan is part of that Jeffrey Epstein ring out of Miami

 

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Response to louis c (Reply #2)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 01:49 PM

22. AKA The Pedophile Alan Dershowitz

He is a compromised liar, just like Trump

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Response to Stonepounder (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 01:37 PM

3. Dershowitz seems to be as senile as Giuliani.

Or, if not senile, so desperate for excuses that he'll blow the most ridiculous comments out his ass, assuming or hoping that the numpties who watch Fox will believe him because he's a famous lawyer.

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Response to The Velveteen Ocelot (Reply #3)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 01:40 PM

10. Defending a client

Lawyers will often make absurd arguments to defend their clients. The logic is that if it works, fine, if it doesn't, we'll try something else. Elegance in the argument is rarely the goal or intent.

The problem for someone like a Dershowitz is if one starts to "believe" ones arguments.

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Response to zipplewrath (Reply #10)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 01:56 PM

31. By the way, who's Dershowitz's client?

 

He certainly doesn't represent Trump of Flynn.

How about he's just a fucking asshole.

Link to accusations:
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/how-the-powerful-protect-jeffrey-epstein

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Response to The Velveteen Ocelot (Reply #3)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 01:41 PM

12. I think he's trying to remain relevant by walking the edge of outrageous statements.

... attention getting.

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Response to Stonepounder (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 01:38 PM

4. Obstruction of Justice

Lying to the FBI is a crime because it is an attempt to obstruct justice. If the FBI "already knew", the intent would be to introduce doubt, or to otherwise undermine the credibility of the information they already have.

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Response to zipplewrath (Reply #4)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 01:40 PM

8. Exactly! nt

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Response to Stonepounder (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 01:38 PM

5. He's part of the Epstein rape parties, along with drumpf.

Only drumpf will protect all of them,, so he's 100% in on lying to save drumpf (and himself). All 3 of them should be in jail and he knows it.

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Response to lark (Reply #5)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 01:42 PM

13. Neither Dershowitz nor Bill Clinton went to Epstein rape parties

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Response to Cicada (Reply #13)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 01:46 PM

18. I was reading the other day that Dershowitz definitely was a regular part of them.

Clinton - WTF, where did you get that front? I didn't mention Clinton, only Dershowitz and drumpf.

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Response to lark (Reply #18)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 02:08 PM

39. The Herald said Clinton was a friend of Epsteins

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Response to lark (Reply #18)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 02:26 PM

47. The RW frequently claims (without evidence) that


... Bill Clinton was on Epstein party flights to the "island".

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Response to lark (Reply #18)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 02:33 PM

49. You can search your browse history & give us the link


Since it was just the other day it will be easily at hand.

Then we will be able to appreciate the sterling quality of your sources that you use for such serious accusations. And we can begin to wait in delicious anticipation of Dershowitz imminent incarceration.

Since it is "definite". The source must have been very credible to convince you beyond doubt. Share it with us.

Please. We look forward to your information.

Or not. Perhaps you don't have a shred of credible evidence with which to accuse a person of serious felonies warranting hard time in prison.

Back up your serious accusation against a human being you don't like.

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Response to Cicada (Reply #13)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 01:46 PM

19. Got proof?

 

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Response to Just a Weirdo (Reply #19)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 02:10 PM

40. Her claim is implausible and refuted by travel records

The evidence against Dershowitz consists of a claim by Virginia Roberts. Dershowitz would know he faced years in prison, with many witnesses available to convict him. So her claim is is extremely implausible. In addition her claim was dismissed by her lawyers after Dershowitz presented travel records refuting her.

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Response to Cicada (Reply #13)


Response to Post removed (Reply #27)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 02:17 PM

43. Did you mean to make this sound like a callout of Cicada? Wow

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Response to Cicada (Reply #13)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 01:54 PM

29. SAYS WHO???

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Response to AZ8theist (Reply #29)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 02:05 PM

34. The claim of Virginia Roberts is not believable

The claim of Virginia Roberts is implausible. Dershowitz presented travel records refuting he extremely implausible claim.

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Response to Cicada (Reply #34)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 02:26 PM

46. Ok, we have a Dershowitz defender here...which is fine, but that is not what the accuser claimed

One of the accusers was interviewed not long ago, before Epstein's trial, and she said she had sex with Dershowitz six times.

And by the way, Dershowitz is not a genius, an intelligent man? Yes, and one who seems to be going senile...he is scared of something, I don't know what, be he looks scared every time he is in front of the cameras.

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Response to Cicada (Reply #13)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 02:23 PM

45. Dershowitz was accused by one of the girls

She claimed that he had sex with her six times.

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Response to Stonepounder (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 01:39 PM

7. What a weasel.

He’ll need to cook up a better defense... for himself.

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Response to Stonepounder (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 01:40 PM

9. Flynn pleaded guilty to a not a crime?



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Response to Stonepounder (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 01:41 PM

11. Since when is obstruction of justice legal?

 

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Response to Stonepounder (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 01:44 PM

15. disgusting how low republican "ethics" & "morals" are

republicans are without honor

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Response to Stonepounder (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 01:44 PM

16. Flynn committed multiple serious crimes. He negotiated to only plead guilty to lying to the FBI

The Republican talking point is that lying to the FBI is the only thing Flynn supposedly did wrong. First off, he did lie to the FBI and that is wrong. But that misses the point. Flynn was an unregistered agent for a foreign power, minimally. A strong case could also have been made that he was involved in a conspiracy to kidnap the Turkish cleric living in Pennsylvania to turn him over to Turkey. And I believe there were other charges that could have been made against him also. Getting offered the chance to just plead guilty of one count of lying to the FBI was the kid gloves treatment he got for cooperating with the Special Counsel. Mueller has the goods on other crimes Flynn committed.

The Republicans and shills like Dershowitz have to be called out on this tactic of pretending that the negotiated plea deals with cooperating witnesses represent the only crimes that they committed. To the contrary, they represent the least of the crimes they committed. That's why they call it a plea deal.

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Response to Stonepounder (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 01:44 PM

17. I think to understand Deshowitz, replace the powerful people...

... in his arguments with weaker people. Hes arguing in the abstract, a point that might appear to have more merit if it's about some 19 year old kid dealing with some other criminal case.

I suspect he is arguing a legit legal issue, but getting rich by raising his profile with famous and powerful clients.

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Response to Stonepounder (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 01:46 PM

20. Dershowitz has become a joke

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Response to Stonepounder (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 01:51 PM

23. I knew it was a crime to lie to the FBI when I was like 8 years old

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Response to Stonepounder (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 01:51 PM

24. Derpowitz is wrong as usual.

Cribbed from another's post...

To prove a violation of 18 U.S.C. §1001, the prosecution must prove that:

The topic was “any matter within the jurisdiction of the executive, legislative, or judicial branch”. If, for example, the FBI is asking the questions, then that’s self-evidently true.

”Knowingly and willfully”, either: c​​​​onceals a “material fact” or makes a “materially false” statement.

In 1998, the Supreme Court actually broadened the power of this statute by denying the longstanding “exculpatory no” exception. That means, if the feds asked you if you committed a crime (which you did in fact commit), simply denying that you did so is a violation of 18 U.S.C. §1001.

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2018/12/14/1819124/-Conspiracy-Treason-Espionage-FARA-Your-guide-to-laws-for-l-Affaire-Russe?utm_campaign=spotlight

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Response to Stonepounder (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 01:51 PM

25. So he's saying Flynn's lawyers are incompetent?

Allowing their client to plead guilty to a non-crime?

Either Flynn's lawyers are guilty of gross malpractice, or Dershowitz is desperately trying to deceive us all.

I suspect it's the latter.

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Response to Stonepounder (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 01:52 PM

26. Dershowitz has a "jail bait" problem - which of course is not a crime - according to him and Trump

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Response to Stonepounder (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 01:53 PM

28. Maybe. . .

on their death beds, Giuliani and Dershowitz will confess that they lied through their teeth in their later years because Trump - or the Russians, or the mob, or whoever - was blackmailing them. What else would explain the full 180 on their integrity. Giuliani may have had a mobster father, but he put mobsters in jail. And how this? He's a parody of himself. Heck, he's a parody of how he's portrayed on SNL. And it's not like their just shutting up and leaving the public arena. They are front and center every day with opinions that are vile, wrong, and diametrically opposite to their views of some 20 or more years ago. No one changes that dramatically without a reason.

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Response to Stonepounder (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 02:00 PM

32. Seems that this is repeating RW talking points.



The less coverage and drama they get, the more we all can keep on track.

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Response to Stonepounder (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 02:05 PM

35. I encourage Mr. Dershowitz to test his opinion and lie to the FBI

Then we'll know for sure if he's right.

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Response to Stonepounder (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 02:06 PM

36. Fruk Dersh

 

The sellout 🔧

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Response to Stonepounder (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 02:08 PM

37. Dershowitz is a complete and utter Zionist shill for Israel and Netanyahu

That's why he sucks up to Trump so closely. But his need and desire to stay on Trump's good side, because he thinks Trump is doing Netanyahu's bidding and so needs to be protected at all costs, distorts his legal reasoning.

He knows better. But his client is Trump and ultimately the current Israeli government. And like any good attorney, he's doing whatever it takes, within the bounds of the law, to defend his two clients ... Trump and though Trump Israel.

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Response to Stonepounder (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 02:08 PM

38. is Prof. Dershowitz ungraduating himself from law school before our eyes?

i never thought i would see such things in my lifetime, although to be fair, this one is kind of obscure

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Response to Stonepounder (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2018, 02:35 PM

50. Locking...

The opinions of TV talking heads are not LBN. If Dersh were Trump's lawyer, then his opinion might be important news of national interest. As it is, Dersh is just a talking head on Fox News

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