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Jedi Guy

(3,171 posts)
Sun Dec 16, 2018, 07:17 AM Dec 2018

Father of Guatemalan girl who died in US custody has 'no complaints' about her treatment, consul say

Source: CNN

(CNN)The father of a 7-year-old Guatemalan girl who died after being detained by the US Customs and Border Patrol (CBP) said he has "no complaints about how Border Patrol agents treated him and his daughter," Guatemalan Consul Tekandi Paniagua told CNN on Saturday.

The consul said the father, Nery Gilberto Caal, told him agents did everything they possibly could to help his daughter, Jakelin Caal Maquin, after she became sick on a a bus. The bus traveled from the Antelope Wells port of entry in New Mexico to a Border Patrol station in Lordsburg, New Mexico, about 90 minutes away.

~snip~

Caal did not speak to the media Saturday, but in a statement issued by his lawyers, he said he was "grateful for the many first responders that tried to save young Jakelin's life in New Mexico and Texas."

Read more: https://www.cnn.com/2018/12/15/us/guatemalan-girls-father/index.html



With more facts in hand, it doesn't seem at all like CBP denied Jakelin food or water, or that they simply shrugged their shoulders and watched her die because they're sadists. It sounds like they did the best they could in a terrible situation and were unable to save her. Sometimes tragic things happen and no one is at fault, but of course, everyone just can't wait to play the Blame Game.
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Father of Guatemalan girl who died in US custody has 'no complaints' about her treatment, consul say (Original Post) Jedi Guy Dec 2018 OP
The US government is aware of the Humanitarian Crisis and has not implemented delisen Dec 2018 #1
We must understand Timmygoat Dec 2018 #2
bingo dembotoz Dec 2018 #5
Exactly right. What are his options? marble falls Dec 2018 #7
Prove your assertion with evidence. eratznod Dec 2018 #8
Welcome to DU. Actually there is no evidence of anything, just facts and a child's remains ... marble falls Dec 2018 #11
No evidence of that. Yet. Kaleva Dec 2018 #10
"terrified of going back to a country that is too horrific to even imagine" lol EX500rider Dec 2018 #13
Ya, its history reads like a fairytale. na fleabiscuit Dec 2018 #17
It's history does not change the fact that Jamaica & the Bahamas are more dangerous. n/a EX500rider Dec 2018 #21
The fact that other countries are more violent does John Fante Dec 2018 #31
27.26 out of 100,000 is pretty good odds. EX500rider Dec 2018 #32
Exactly! laserhaas Dec 2018 #50
The problem is that our entire response to this crisis is inadequate. yardwork Dec 2018 #3
Inaccurate headline. The father wants an investigation & her cause of death determined. SunSeeker Dec 2018 #4
Oh give me a break. Jedi Guy Dec 2018 #9
He still has more family to take care of who are still alive. nt fleabiscuit Dec 2018 #14
This is a discussion board. If you're bothered by that, go elsewhere. SunSeeker Dec 2018 #15
Nah, I think I'll stay, thanks. Jedi Guy Dec 2018 #22
And you're welcome to skip my posts. SunSeeker Dec 2018 #27
Yes what is up with Jedi Guy pushing the rightwing pro-Trump line? sharedvalues Dec 2018 #29
Oh for fuck's sake, knock it off. Jedi Guy Dec 2018 #34
Thou doth protest too much, methinks. SunSeeker Dec 2018 #66
Annnnnnnnnnnnnnd there you go again, twisting and smearing away. Jedi Guy Dec 2018 #67
Uh huh. You mad. SunSeeker Dec 2018 #70
Not particularly, no. Why would I be? Jedi Guy Dec 2018 #71
LOL SunSeeker Dec 2018 #79
Yep, you got me, SunSeeker! Jedi Guy Dec 2018 #80
LOL Speaking of "delusions of your own importance," here, let me quote you: SunSeeker Dec 2018 #81
Post removed Post removed Dec 2018 #82
I'm flinging your own quotes. SunSeeker Dec 2018 #83
When the facts are in, if it is determined CBP was indeed negligent, I'll be happy to condemn them. Jedi Guy Dec 2018 #33
We have facts we can comment on now. You are just ignoring them. SunSeeker Dec 2018 #37
My entire point is that commenting and forming conclusions is premature. Jedi Guy Dec 2018 #40
Yet you conclude in the OP that CBP "did the best they could." SunSeeker Dec 2018 #49
Your emphasis there missed two key words: sounds like. Jedi Guy Dec 2018 #52
That is just silly. We have a right to comment on CBP just like you did. SunSeeker Dec 2018 #58
If you say so, SunSeeker. Jedi Guy Dec 2018 #60
I see you're resorting to sophistry. SunSeeker Dec 2018 #68
I see that you don't know what either of those words means. Jedi Guy Dec 2018 #76
LOL Project away. nt SunSeeker Dec 2018 #78
Jedi Guy: Your post is filled with rightwing talking points sharedvalues Dec 2018 #28
Is it really? Which ones are those, exactly? Jedi Guy Dec 2018 #35
You describe yourself as the self-appointed opinion police of progressive opinion on this site. SunSeeker Dec 2018 #38
LOL, you're a stitch, SunSeeker. Jedi Guy Dec 2018 #41
I see you think you are the only one who can decide when the "full facts" have emerged. SunSeeker Dec 2018 #44
If you're going to quote me, at least get it right. Jedi Guy Dec 2018 #46
You are projecting and being hypocritical. SunSeeker Dec 2018 #53
And there you go again, misrepresenting and twisting. Jedi Guy Dec 2018 #55
I see you are the typo police too. nt SunSeeker Dec 2018 #59
Yeah, I get paid double for catching typos. Jedi Guy Dec 2018 #61
I respect DU readers sharedvalues Dec 2018 #73
Nah, it doesn't work that way. Jedi Guy Dec 2018 #75
Much easier to push a narrative while cowering behind implication. LanternWaste Dec 2018 #84
You undeniably echo rightwing talking points sharedvalues Dec 2018 #85
Maybe if they had just granted her a temporary protected status and helped her family ... marble falls Dec 2018 #6
Still on your watch. Corgigal Dec 2018 #12
Hmmm. An incarcerated father, in a position of total weakness, says his incarcerators... Honeycombe8 Dec 2018 #16
He was speaking to personnel from his country's consulate. He has no reason to lie to them. Jedi Guy Dec 2018 #23
To be fair, it's what was reported that got people upset. Honeycombe8 Dec 2018 #24
I didn't say everyone wants someone innocent to hang. Jedi Guy Dec 2018 #25
He was imprisoned. And your headline jumps to conclusions. sharedvalues Dec 2018 #30
So because he was imprisoned, it follows logically that he lied to an official from his consulate? Jedi Guy Dec 2018 #36
He is not free to leave. He is trying to get asylum. SunSeeker Dec 2018 #39
It's starting to become clear now, I think. Jedi Guy Dec 2018 #42
Most likely, the same one alleging... LanternWaste Dec 2018 #43
Was wondering when you'd show up, old friend. Jedi Guy Dec 2018 #47
Your attack on DUers is gratuitous. SunSeeker Dec 2018 #45
I'm sorry you think that an observation about people playing the Blame Game is "gratuitous." Jedi Guy Dec 2018 #48
I accept that your opinion is different. You are the one who can't accept others' opinions. SunSeeker Dec 2018 #51
I can absolutely accept that others' opinions differ, and I can absolutely comment on them. Jedi Guy Dec 2018 #54
You are the one getting "worked up" by people pointing out how wrong and hypocritical you are. SunSeeker Dec 2018 #62
If you say so, SunSeeker. Jedi Guy Dec 2018 #63
Yes, you are. SunSeeker Dec 2018 #69
Yes. He was imprisoned, so this is coercive. sharedvalues Dec 2018 #72
The inmates the Red Cross interviewed at Theredienstadt dflprincess Dec 2018 #18
Disgusting, ignorant, and offensive comment oberliner Dec 2018 #19
Maybe calling it a concetration camp is too much for you, but the Tornillo camp in Texas is evil. SunSeeker Dec 2018 #20
Why? dpibel Dec 2018 #26
Is he still in custody? Squinch Dec 2018 #56
Per the article, he's at a migrant shelter in El Paso called Annunciation House. Jedi Guy Dec 2018 #57
But he's still a guy in a very vulnerable position whose arm could easily be twisted. Squinch Dec 2018 #64
I'd agree with you but for one fact. Jedi Guy Dec 2018 #65
Absolutely. Coercive situation. He's jailed sharedvalues Dec 2018 #74
Will the Bush WH learn from this? Ridiculous that the people in power applegrove Dec 2018 #77

delisen

(6,039 posts)
1. The US government is aware of the Humanitarian Crisis and has not implemented
Sun Dec 16, 2018, 07:25 AM
Dec 2018

a comprehensive plan of working with Central American countries address the issues.

It is good to know that the individuals in our government on the front lines were humane and caring but they did not have the tools they needed to address this specific situation. Those tools need to be deployed by the highest levels of our government.

These crises we are told will increase due to climate change. Our current administration is totally unprepared.

Timmygoat

(779 posts)
2. We must understand
Sun Dec 16, 2018, 08:33 AM
Dec 2018

this father was terrified of saying anything to offend, he is terrified of the US authorities and terrified of going back to a country that is too horrific to even imagine, and after days and days of walking, hunger and thirst he is not going to offend the US.

marble falls

(56,358 posts)
11. Welcome to DU. Actually there is no evidence of anything, just facts and a child's remains ...
Sun Dec 16, 2018, 12:17 PM
Dec 2018

Something happened under circumstances 100% controlled under our President's deadly fix for a non existent problem.

Its a crying shame when the death of a seven year old has to bring it home and yet will not even slow it down.

If I were her father, an extremely unsophisticated to US culture but used to military/police/political violence in my own country sort of man - I'd consider closely what I'd say against an authority that has me in jail and has had my daughter "die" alone already. Not speaking or understanding English, of course.

Kaleva

(36,146 posts)
10. No evidence of that. Yet.
Sun Dec 16, 2018, 11:55 AM
Dec 2018

Humans are not rational creatures and will believe what fits their world view. Your post, while there is no evidence at this time that proves it, does give you comfort as it supports your world view.

EX500rider

(10,518 posts)
13. "terrified of going back to a country that is too horrific to even imagine" lol
Sun Dec 16, 2018, 01:18 PM
Dec 2018

Guatemala has a lower homicide rate then the Bahamas or Jamaica or the Virgin Islands, I have driven across it and it is not "too horrific to even imagine" but a beautiful country with common 3rd World problems.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

You might be thinking of El Salvador which has almost 3 times the murder rate of Guatemala.

John Fante

(3,479 posts)
31. The fact that other countries are more violent does
Sun Dec 16, 2018, 10:28 PM
Dec 2018

not in itself make Guatemala a safe place to raise a child. A 27.26 homicide rate is awful.

SunSeeker

(51,367 posts)
4. Inaccurate headline. The father wants an investigation & her cause of death determined.
Sun Dec 16, 2018, 09:46 AM
Dec 2018

Last edited Sun Dec 16, 2018, 11:24 AM - Edit history (1)

As stated in the article itself:

Caal did not speak to the media Saturday, but in a statement issued by his lawyers, he said he was "grateful for the many first responders that tried to save young Jakelin's life in New Mexico and Texas."

Still, his lawyers called for an investigation that "will assess this incident within nationally recognized standards for the arrest and custody of children. The family intends to assist in such an investigation into the cause and circumstances of Jakelin's death."

The lawyers, Enrique Moreno and Elena Esparza, also criticized border authorities for asking Caal to sign a form written in English about the state of his daughter's health not long after they arrived at the border, when she showed no problems.

But he speaks no English, the lawyers said. He speaks Q'eqchi', a Mayan language used in Guatemala, and Spanish is his second language.

"It is unacceptable for any government agency to have persons in custody sign documents in a language that they clearly do not understand," the statement said.


So obviously, contrary to the consul's statement, the father does have complaints about the way CBP treated them and wants an investigation. The consul may have misunderstood the father, since the father speaks an indigenous language.

No one is disputing the girl had a 105.7 fever.

CBP should have checked her health when they took her into custody. Sure seems, based on the facts, there was a delay in calling EMTs. The EMTs were not called when the father alerted CBP that his daughter was vomiting, before they loaded them on the bus.

From the article:

Nearly eight hours after they were detained, Jakelin and her father were loaded onto a bus bound for the Border Patrol station in Lordsburg, New Mexico, the CBP said.

Before leaving, her father told agents his daughter was sick and vomiting, the CBP said. An agent notified the station that the child would need emergency medical care.


There is no indication CBP actually checked her temperature nor offered her food or water upon apprehension. Instead, CBP made the father sign a statement that she was in good health, a statement written in a language he could not understand.

So please explain, Jedi Guy, why you feel compelled to defend the CBP and mock the rest of us who are raising legitimate criticisms by accusing us of playing the "blame game."

Jedi Guy

(3,171 posts)
9. Oh give me a break.
Sun Dec 16, 2018, 11:44 AM
Dec 2018

He stated to the consul that he has no complaints about the way they were treated, and thanked everyone involved for trying to save his daughter. You, though, apparently know better than he does what he thinks and how he feels, despite what he apparently told the consul. Have you been in touch with Mr. Caal, then?

And by the way, it states in the article that Spanish in his second language, so I should think he can communicate with the consul just fine. After all, he somehow communicated with his lawyers as well, didn't he?

She had a fever of 105.7 around 6:30 am, when they arrived at Lordsburg. There's nothing to indicate that she had that high of a fever when they took her into custody. Her father told CBP that Jakelin was sick and vomiting, and they advised the station that they were coming in with a child who was ill. Should they have immediately loaded her onto a life flight because she was vomiting? When it later became apparently how ill she truly was, they put her on a life flight and sent her to a hospital.

There's no indication that they didn't give her food and water upon apprehension, it's simply your assumption that they didn't.

And "legitimate criticisms" are not, in fact, legitimate when you don't know the facts. No one who commented on that thread knew the facts of the matter, they just simply assumed that CBP were sadists who let a little girl die for funsies.

Criticisms will be legitimate after an investigation has determined the full set of facts, so it can weighed and judged whether anyone made a mistake or acted improperly. If someone screwed up, then I fully believe they should be held to account. Until that's determined, however, all your "legitimate criticisms" are pure conjecture and surmise, otherwise known as the Blame Game.

SunSeeker

(51,367 posts)
15. This is a discussion board. If you're bothered by that, go elsewhere.
Sun Dec 16, 2018, 03:55 PM
Dec 2018

If the CBP had given her water and food and checked her upon apprehension, they would have said so. Instead, they made up a story that she hadn't had food or water "for days" so they could blame her death on her dad. His lawyers statement pushed back on that, saying that was false. That is a complaint, along with the others I mentioned, that you're ignoring, Jedi Guy. The headline is inaccurate.

We are allowed to make criticisms based on the facts we have, like that CBP appears to have only made the father sign a statement his daughter was healthy (in a language he couldn't understand) rather than actually checking her out. If her temp was 105.7 at 6:30 am, it stands to reason it was elevated 8 hours earlier at 10 pm upon apprehension as well. A simple temperature check would have taken less than a minute but they did not call EMTs until they were loading the bus, and instead of having the EMTs come to where they were loading the bus, they had them meet them 90 minutes from then to the spot they were travelling to. Those are facts we know that are undisputed. Based on those facts, the CBP acted negligently, at best.

No one is saying the CBP let her die "for funsies." People are saying it was the result of neglect at best, racist hate at worst--a misguided attempt to "deter" migrants.

Seems to me YOU are the one making up facts.

Jedi Guy

(3,171 posts)
22. Nah, I think I'll stay, thanks.
Sun Dec 16, 2018, 09:01 PM
Dec 2018

And while I'm here, I'll continue to point out when people rush to judgment absent the facts, which they do quite frequently. People on that thread jumped the gun and assumed CBP was at fault through negligence or hatred, with absolutely nothing to support those assertions. One would think that a reality-based community would wait until an investigation had taken place, but apparently not.

If the child's father feels that CBP acted appropriately, that goes a long way towards assuaging my concerns on the matter. Let the investigation play out, and then let the results take place. Until then, any assertions of negligence or malice are conjecture and surmise, and I'll point that out to my heart's content. If you dislike that, that's not my problem. You're more than welcome to skip my posts or put me on ignore, if you don't like what I have to say.

SunSeeker

(51,367 posts)
27. And you're welcome to skip my posts.
Sun Dec 16, 2018, 10:21 PM
Dec 2018

Your post is not not part of the "reality based" community. You are ignoring the evidence of CBP negiligence, which I list. Trump and his officials have said their actions are motivated by wanting to deter the migrants from coming. That was the whole point of the truly evil child separation policy.

The father has NOT said CBP acted appropriately. You are making shit up.

Jedi Guy

(3,171 posts)
34. Oh for fuck's sake, knock it off.
Sun Dec 16, 2018, 11:52 PM
Dec 2018

Saying "Hey, how about we wait until the investigation before coming to a conclusion" is a "rightwing pro-Trump line" to you? Really?

SunSeeker

(51,367 posts)
66. Thou doth protest too much, methinks.
Mon Dec 17, 2018, 07:02 PM
Dec 2018

You are the one accusing people of "playing the Blame Game," getting their "undies in a twist" and suggesting DUers aren't part of "a reality-based community," all for expressing concerns about CBP actions based on troubling facts we know. That is what right wing trolls on this site do to us. That is why people are commenting that your posts sound like right wing talking points.

And you do this while asserting in your OP that in your estimation the CBP did "the best they could."

So, you shouldn't get angry when people think you are pushing the right wing pro-Trump line.

Jedi Guy

(3,171 posts)
67. Annnnnnnnnnnnnnd there you go again, twisting and smearing away.
Mon Dec 17, 2018, 07:08 PM
Dec 2018

Your shtick was funny at first, because ordinarily one must pay for comedy of that caliber. Unfortunately, like hearing the same joke over and over again, it has long since become boring. But I'm sure you're doing your very best, bless your heart.

Jedi Guy

(3,171 posts)
71. Not particularly, no. Why would I be?
Mon Dec 17, 2018, 08:39 PM
Dec 2018

I was entertained there for a bit, since I enjoy a spirited discussion, but now I'm just bored. All you do, over and over, is twist words, misrepresent what was said, and sling baseless personal attacks. It's kind of sad that you think doing so is a good thing.

Jedi Guy

(3,171 posts)
80. Yep, you got me, SunSeeker!
Tue Dec 18, 2018, 08:25 AM
Dec 2018

Here I sit, brimming with rage over your masterful performance, grinding my teeth in impotent fury and nearing a stroke as my blood pressure spikes!

I'm not really sure which is more pitiful, honestly. Your juvenile behavior, your delusions of rhetorical skill, or your delusions of your own importance? It's a tough call.

In my experience, when one resorts to trolling, it's because one's arguments are garbage. But carry on, if you wish.

SunSeeker

(51,367 posts)
81. LOL Speaking of "delusions of your own importance," here, let me quote you:
Tue Dec 18, 2018, 01:48 PM
Dec 2018
And while I'm here, I'll continue to point out when people rush to judgment absent the facts, which they do quite frequently.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=2224617



Response to SunSeeker (Reply #81)

Jedi Guy

(3,171 posts)
33. When the facts are in, if it is determined CBP was indeed negligent, I'll be happy to condemn them.
Sun Dec 16, 2018, 11:50 PM
Dec 2018

Until then, I'm reserving judgment. If you don't like that, tough rocks. Have fun on your bandwagon, I want no part of it.

The father told the consular official he had, quote, "no complaints about her treatment," unquote. If they had acted inappropriately, it stands to reason that he would indeed have had complaints, no? That's my interpretation. If you don't like that, see what I said above about tough rocks.

SunSeeker

(51,367 posts)
37. We have facts we can comment on now. You are just ignoring them.
Mon Dec 17, 2018, 02:04 AM
Dec 2018

And no, it does not stand to reason that he would have complaints even if CBP did not treat her properly. He is in their custody. He is still trying to get asylum so he can support the rest of his family. He does not want to attack the CBP. That is why the family is asking for an investigation.

Jedi Guy

(3,171 posts)
40. My entire point is that commenting and forming conclusions is premature.
Mon Dec 17, 2018, 03:45 PM
Dec 2018

No investigation has taken place, and the facts are nebulous. I'm stating that in my opinion, forming conclusions without the full facts to hand is a mistake. If you dislike that, waaaaaaaaaait for it... tough rocks.

According to the article, he's staying at a shelter for migrants, so it may not be accurate to say he's in CBP custody. For someone who gets so worked up about people supposedly making up facts, perhaps you ought to avoid doing so yourself, hm?

SunSeeker

(51,367 posts)
49. Yet you conclude in the OP that CBP "did the best they could."
Mon Dec 17, 2018, 05:02 PM
Dec 2018
With more facts in hand, it doesn't seem at all like CBP denied Jakelin food or water, or that they simply shrugged their shoulders and watched her die because they're sadists. It sounds like they did the best they could in a terrible situation and were unable to save her. Sometimes tragic things happen and no one is at fault, but of course, everyone just can't wait to play the Blame Game.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=2224253


But you hypocritically insist any comment we make is "premature."

Jedi Guy

(3,171 posts)
52. Your emphasis there missed two key words: sounds like.
Mon Dec 17, 2018, 05:08 PM
Dec 2018

If the little girl's father has "no complaints" about her treatment, then it stands to reason that they indeed did the best they could, based on his opinion of the matter. And I didn't say that "any comment" is premature, I said that condemnation of CBP is premature.

I really don't understand why you continue to insist on twisting my words to mean things they clearly don't mean, but given that your "debate" tactics include ad hominem smears and putting words in my mouth, I suppose I shouldn't be surprised.

SunSeeker

(51,367 posts)
58. That is just silly. We have a right to comment on CBP just like you did.
Mon Dec 17, 2018, 05:20 PM
Dec 2018

Any comment is based on what things "seem like" to that person based on the facts; that is assumed with any comment. I cited you correctly. Your assertions are hypocritical.

Jedi Guy

(3,171 posts)
60. If you say so, SunSeeker.
Mon Dec 17, 2018, 05:23 PM
Dec 2018

Leaving out the words "sounds like" turns it from a supposition to an assertion. The two are not the same. Yet another example of how you're twisting the things I've actually said to make them mean what you want them to mean.

Jedi Guy

(3,171 posts)
76. I see that you don't know what either of those words means.
Tue Dec 18, 2018, 12:55 AM
Dec 2018

Imagine my surprise.

And it's really rich that you're accusing me of sophistry when your posts are riddled with personal attacks, deliberate twisting of my words, and misquoting me.

Jedi Guy

(3,171 posts)
35. Is it really? Which ones are those, exactly?
Sun Dec 16, 2018, 11:54 PM
Dec 2018

I defy you to point to any statement of mine where I expressed approval of the way Trump is handling the situation on the border, or any situation at all, for that matter. I defy you to show your work on my post being filled with "rightwing talking points." I posted a story from a reputable news site that provided further information on a topic of discussion. If that updated information doesn't sit well with you, that's not my problem.

SunSeeker

(51,367 posts)
38. You describe yourself as the self-appointed opinion police of progressive opinion on this site.
Mon Dec 17, 2018, 02:20 AM
Dec 2018

As you state in this thread:
"And while I'm here, I'll continue to point out when people rush to judgment absent the facts, which they do quite frequently."  https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=2224617

You falsely claim DUers made opinions on this matter "absent the facts," but then you proceed to ignore the facts we list upon we base our opinions, as is evident in this thread.

You deride DUers as "quite frequently" jumping to connclusions without facts. That is something a right winger would say.



Jedi Guy

(3,171 posts)
41. LOL, you're a stitch, SunSeeker.
Mon Dec 17, 2018, 03:55 PM
Dec 2018

Kindly provide the post where I describe myself as the "self-appointed opinion police." I'll wait.

I'm stating my opinion, which you don't like and are flailing wildly against, so which of us is the opinion police, hmm?

If I stated that DUers made opinions on the matter "absent the facts," then I misspoke. Allow me to clarify now (as I have already done, repeatedly) that I think it's a mistake to come to conclusions without the full facts to hand. I really don't understand why that gets your undies in a twist.

And if you think DUers don't frequently jump to conclusions with very few facts, then you clearly aren't reading threads about officer-involved shootings. When the information at hand is "a cop shot someone" some DUers have already decided that the cop is a racist murderer despite no evidence of that being the case.

Lastly, when one resorts to ad hominem smears like calling someone a right-winger, that just reinforces the notion that you're the one playing progressive gatekeeper, not me.

SunSeeker

(51,367 posts)
44. I see you think you are the only one who can decide when the "full facts" have emerged.
Mon Dec 17, 2018, 04:29 PM
Dec 2018

I hope you realize we will never have the full facts about anything. So, waiting until we have the full facts means we will never be able to comment about anything. We can and must express our opinions regarding facts as we get them, based on those facts. That is all we are doing, and that is the purpose of a discussion board like this. Like I said, if you don't like that, go elsewhere, rather than trying to attack DUers.

You posted an OP in LBN adding a gratuitous paragraph bashing DUers for expressing concerns at the death of a 7 year old in CBP custody. And now you are accusing me of having me of having my "panties in a twist" (adding sexism to your right wing talking points).

Spare me your "clarification." Your posts have shown who you are.

Jedi Guy

(3,171 posts)
46. If you're going to quote me, at least get it right.
Mon Dec 17, 2018, 04:50 PM
Dec 2018

I said you had your "undies" in a twist. Undies is gender-neutral. Nice try, though!

We have very few facts about this matter, and I think forming a conclusion based on very few facts is a bad practice, as I have said over and over and over again. Why that hasn't penetrated your consciousness is, frankly, mystifying.

And if that's your threshold for "bashing" you must have extremely thin skin. It's my opinion, so once again, file it under "Rocks, Tough" if you don't like it.

SunSeeker

(51,367 posts)
53. You are projecting and being hypocritical.
Mon Dec 17, 2018, 05:12 PM
Dec 2018

It is you who can't seem to get something pretty basic through your conscienceness. We will never have all the facts.

And on top of that, it is you who has already concluded the CBP "did the best they could," stated right in your OP.

Jedi Guy

(3,171 posts)
55. And there you go again, misrepresenting and twisting.
Mon Dec 17, 2018, 05:13 PM
Dec 2018

And it's "consciousness," not "conscienceness." Slow down, take a deep breath, and proofread. Your arguments will be much, much better for it.

Jedi Guy

(3,171 posts)
61. Yeah, I get paid double for catching typos.
Mon Dec 17, 2018, 05:24 PM
Dec 2018

It's a pretty lucrative gig, really, so thanks for the extra Christmas presents.

sharedvalues

(6,916 posts)
73. I respect DU readers
Tue Dec 18, 2018, 12:28 AM
Dec 2018

And I think DU readers can read what you said and I said and come to their own (correct) conclusion.

Jedi Guy

(3,171 posts)
75. Nah, it doesn't work that way.
Tue Dec 18, 2018, 12:50 AM
Dec 2018

You gotta show your work, just like back in math class. If you assert something, then it's on you to back it up. Accusing someone of something and then refusing to provide any evidence when challenged is bullshit.

Again, I defy you to find any post from me that is pro-Trump or supportive of his policies. Put up or shut up.

 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
84. Much easier to push a narrative while cowering behind implication.
Tue Dec 18, 2018, 04:49 PM
Dec 2018

A consistent pattern is easily observable to all but the irrational mind oblivious to creating that pattern. Whoever that may be.

Regardless of what you want up, be it puts or shuts.

sharedvalues

(6,916 posts)
85. You undeniably echo rightwing talking points
Wed Dec 19, 2018, 12:50 AM
Dec 2018

The rightwing media was all over the CBP lines you are also pushing.
That is a fact.

If you don’t like the facts, you can’t wish them out of existence. And trying to deflect by talking about Trump, while I repeatedly call you out on rightwing talking points, isn’t going to work.

You are echoing rightwing talking points about CBP and this poor father.

marble falls

(56,358 posts)
6. Maybe if they had just granted her a temporary protected status and helped her family ...
Sun Dec 16, 2018, 09:59 AM
Dec 2018

get shelter - like they should be doing with 99-44/99% of asylum seekers?

Jail treatment is nowhere as effective as 'free-world' medical treatment.

Corgigal

(9,291 posts)
12. Still on your watch.
Sun Dec 16, 2018, 12:28 PM
Dec 2018

You took her into custody, so you are responsible. It doesn't matter if a child can advocate for themselves. If you don't want to do your job, then quit.

Until you do, you owe her family millions. It's on you. No different then when a cop puts cuffs on a suspect, who then kicks out the back window of the patrol car. Your going to do a pit stop to the emergency room first.


Honeycombe8

(37,648 posts)
16. Hmmm. An incarcerated father, in a position of total weakness, says his incarcerators...
Sun Dec 16, 2018, 04:11 PM
Dec 2018

acted appropriately. Now, what could possibly be suspicious about that statement?

Fact: Whenever you take children who have been crossing a desert for a long time, you accept the responsibility of proper care for those children.

Fact: The first thing you do when confiscating children who have been crossing a desert for a long time, is give them water, at a minimum. A minimum. Otherwise, I would call it reckless endangerment or negligence.

Jedi Guy

(3,171 posts)
23. He was speaking to personnel from his country's consulate. He has no reason to lie to them.
Sun Dec 16, 2018, 09:09 PM
Dec 2018

At this point, the facts are nebulous and an investigation has yet to take place. If the child's father has no complaints about their treatment, that goes a long way towards mitigating my concerns here. The investigation will determine the rest, and if someone erred through negligence, callousness, or malice, they should be called to account for it.

Until then, any assertion beyond that is conjecture and surmise. Some people are just chomping at the bit to blame CBP with little to nothing to go on. The way people so quickly rush to judgment is, in my view, damaging and counterproductive. People seem to have forgotten that sometimes awful things happen and no one is at fault... but everyone wants someone to blame. That mindset is not helpful.

Honeycombe8

(37,648 posts)
24. To be fair, it's what was reported that got people upset.
Sun Dec 16, 2018, 09:14 PM
Dec 2018

So it was the reporting. I believe, but can't be sure since I don't remember, the source of those facts. I thought it was the CPB itself.

I don't want to blame CPB, if they didn't do anything wrong. Unfair of you to characterize people's reactions to what was REPORTED. It's not as if they assumed the facts.

It was reported she died of dehydration and had been days crossing the desert without water. And that CPB had not given her water, when they picked her up. That is in and of itself negligence, on the face of things. No jumping to conclusions.

But now it's being reported that she had not been days crossing the desert, only 90 minutes after a dropoff in Mexico. Quite a difference.

The mindset that everyone wants someone innocent to hang for a tragedy is not helpful.

Jedi Guy

(3,171 posts)
25. I didn't say everyone wants someone innocent to hang.
Sun Dec 16, 2018, 09:50 PM
Dec 2018

I said everyone wants someone to hang. I don't think most people care much for innocence or guilt, sadly. They just want someone to point at and say, "It's all their fault." People seem to have forgotten that sometimes bad things happen and they are beyond the power of mortals to change or stop.

If, after an investigation, it is determined that Officer So-And-So should have called for a life flight earlier than he did, then that's something that can be acted upon, and Officer So-And-So should answer for his conduct. If it's determined that nothing they did would have saved the child, then punishing people for something they couldn't change is the very definition of unfair.

As for the reporting, we all know that news outlets will stumble all over one another to be first in breaking the news, and accuracy is sometimes a casualty of that. The fellow who was pilloried in the media over the 1996 Olympics bombing, Richard Jewell, could tell you a bit about that, were he still alive.

I feel like people should know by now that initial reports are fluid, and only an investigation will get to the bottom of it. Rushing to judgment and parceling out blame when very little is known about an incident is a bad habit, and I feel no guilt for pointing that out.

sharedvalues

(6,916 posts)
30. He was imprisoned. And your headline jumps to conclusions.
Sun Dec 16, 2018, 10:25 PM
Dec 2018

Your headline jumps to worse conclusions than the posts you are attacking. The headline echoes what I have heard from several rightwing pro-Trump sites today.

Jedi Guy

(3,171 posts)
36. So because he was imprisoned, it follows logically that he lied to an official from his consulate?
Sun Dec 16, 2018, 11:59 PM
Dec 2018

Also, you're not even correct about him being imprisoned. Did you even read the article? Here:

The father has been staying at Annunciation House, a shelter for migrants in El Paso, since December 9, said Ruben Garcia, the Annunciation House director, at a news conference.


If you think CNN is a rightwing pro-Trump site, that's just laughably absurd.

SunSeeker

(51,367 posts)
39. He is not free to leave. He is trying to get asylum.
Mon Dec 17, 2018, 02:35 AM
Dec 2018

It is your gratuitous commentary in your OP that echoes what right wingers are saying about this incident, not CNN.

You want us to reserve judgment until all the facts are in following an investigation, but there is no independent investigation going on. That is why the family has called for an independent investigation.

There are plenty of troubling facts that we know right now, and we have a right to make a judgment about them, just like you are making a judgment about them.

Jedi Guy

(3,171 posts)
42. It's starting to become clear now, I think.
Mon Dec 17, 2018, 04:03 PM
Dec 2018

Ahhh, so my commentary is "gratuitous" but everyone else is free to have an opinion. I see. Who's playing opinion police again?

If there isn't an independent investigation, then that'll confirm that something nefarious, or at least negligent, went on, and I'll thoroughly condemn CBP for declining to allow such an investigation and engaging in a cover-up. As it is, any such condemnation would be premature, in my view.

I really don't understand why you are so desperately flailing around and attacking me simply because I'm not willing to condemn CBP on incomplete information and think others should show similar restraint.

I guess because I don't agree with you on this particular issue, I must be a secret right-winger, huh? If I deviate from your view even an iota, it must be because I'm insufficiently pure in my progressive credentials, is that it?

 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
43. Most likely, the same one alleging...
Mon Dec 17, 2018, 04:25 PM
Dec 2018

"Who's playing opinion police again? "

Most likely, the same one alleging the unsupported statement... "but of course, everyone just can't wait to play the Blame Game."




But I get it... holding others to a higher standard than we hold ourselves to is a really efficient way to feel more self-righteous. now, go for the twofer, and rationalize it as something else. Premature, indeed...

Jedi Guy

(3,171 posts)
47. Was wondering when you'd show up, old friend.
Mon Dec 17, 2018, 04:52 PM
Dec 2018

I've got to admit, I expected to see you long before now. And your contribution was, unsurprisingly, about as worthwhile as I expected it would be. Which is to say, worth about as much as a fart in a windstorm.

SunSeeker

(51,367 posts)
45. Your attack on DUers is gratuitous.
Mon Dec 17, 2018, 04:40 PM
Dec 2018

If you think there are not enough facts to make a comment about CBP actions, then just say that, instead of attacking DUers.

There is no independent investigation now and there is no indication CBP intends to have one, just an internal review. We have plenty of facts to comment on now and are justified in condemning CBP actions to date, based on the facts. We are not "flailing." We are expressing our opinions based on facts.

Jedi Guy

(3,171 posts)
48. I'm sorry you think that an observation about people playing the Blame Game is "gratuitous."
Mon Dec 17, 2018, 04:54 PM
Dec 2018

I have said exactly that, multiple times. And you just can't seem to accept that my opinion differs from yours, and so you continue to flail away, including ad hominem smears and attributing to me words which never passed my keys.

Annnnnnnnnnnnnnd once again, if there is not an investigation, then I'll condemn the obvious cover-up. Until then, I'm reserving judgment. If you choose not to do so, go nuts, but don't expect me to applaud you for making a conclusion based on incomplete data.

SunSeeker

(51,367 posts)
51. I accept that your opinion is different. You are the one who can't accept others' opinions.
Mon Dec 17, 2018, 05:06 PM
Dec 2018

You are the one who thinks he knows when we have "all the facts." You are the one attacking DUers, accusing them of playing a "game" when all they are doing is expressing their sincere concerns based on the facts we know.

Jedi Guy

(3,171 posts)
54. I can absolutely accept that others' opinions differ, and I can absolutely comment on them.
Mon Dec 17, 2018, 05:12 PM
Dec 2018

I think it's pretty evident that we have very few facts at this point in time, and until more facts are in hand, parceling out blame is premature. And if my use of the term "Blame Game" is getting under your skin, I can only imagine what other turns of phrase get you all worked up.

SunSeeker

(51,367 posts)
62. You are the one getting "worked up" by people pointing out how wrong and hypocritical you are.
Mon Dec 17, 2018, 05:24 PM
Dec 2018

You even freak out over typos.

Jedi Guy

(3,171 posts)
63. If you say so, SunSeeker.
Mon Dec 17, 2018, 05:25 PM
Dec 2018

After all, I'm not the one resorting to personal attacks and smears, am I?

sharedvalues

(6,916 posts)
72. Yes. He was imprisoned, so this is coercive.
Tue Dec 18, 2018, 12:27 AM
Dec 2018

So, is there a reason why you echo rightwing talking points? Do you read Breitbart r the Daily Caller? If not, where did you get this elaborate and largely false information?

SunSeeker

(51,367 posts)
20. Maybe calling it a concetration camp is too much for you, but the Tornillo camp in Texas is evil.
Sun Dec 16, 2018, 07:16 PM
Dec 2018

It was meant to house 400 kids until they could be sent to sponsors. But Trump is having ICE arrest those sponors when they come forward. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/latino/ice-arrested-170-immigrants-seeking-sponsor-migrant-children-n946621
This has denied sponsors to many of of these children, at the same time as Trump has vastly increased the number of children detained, to now over 2,300 kids in the Tornillo camp alone. And unlike Theredienstadt, the CBP won't let international humanitarian organizations in to inspect Tornillo, or even let workers there discuss conditions at the camp. https://www.texastribune.org/2018/11/28/tent-city-texas-migrant-children/

Maybe you are offended, but I get the poster's analogy:

Succumbing to pressure following the deportation of Danish Jews to Theresienstadt, the Germans permitted the International Red Cross to visit in June 1944. It was all an elaborate hoax. The Germans intensified deportations from the ghetto shortly before the visit, and the ghetto itself was "beautified." Gardens were planted, houses painted, and barracks renovated. The Nazis staged social and cultural events for the visiting dignitaries. Once the visit was over, the Germans resumed deportations from Theresienstadt, which did not end until October 1944.
https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/theresienstadt

dpibel

(2,803 posts)
26. Why?
Sun Dec 16, 2018, 10:12 PM
Dec 2018

It's clearly rhetorical.

And how is it an entirely inapt analogy?

People under duress will say most anything.

So what is it that provokes this response from you?

Jedi Guy

(3,171 posts)
57. Per the article, he's at a migrant shelter in El Paso called Annunciation House.
Mon Dec 17, 2018, 05:19 PM
Dec 2018

Judging by its website, it doesn't seem to be a CBP facility, nor does it seem to be affiliated with the federal government. At a guess, I'd say he's staying there while his daughter's death is investigated and while his asylum claim is adjudicated. In any case, it doesn't sound like he's in direct CBP custody at this point, at least that's my reading of the situation.

ETA: Also per the article, he's been there since 9 December, the day after Jakelin died. So it seems like CBP released him to the shelter pretty much right away.

Jedi Guy

(3,171 posts)
65. I'd agree with you but for one fact.
Mon Dec 17, 2018, 05:38 PM
Dec 2018

It wasn't any US official who said he had no complaints, it was someone from the Guatemalan consulate. I'd turn a jaundiced eye on a US official claiming to speak for him, for obvious reasons. Someone from his own consulate, who is at least in theory supposed to be his advocate, has no reason to misquote or misrepresent what he said.

Time will tell, I suppose. As I've made abundantly (and repeatedly) clear elsewhere on the thread, I'm withholding judgment on who's to blame for this tragedy, if anyone is, until more facts have come to light.

applegrove

(118,013 posts)
77. Will the Bush WH learn from this? Ridiculous that the people in power
Tue Dec 18, 2018, 01:14 AM
Dec 2018

have stuff to learn about governance and the security of people in their care. And they are responsible for the wellfare of everyone that crosses the border. Water has been bad at the border site for years. Let us hope it is clean now.

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