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Mon Aug 20, 2018, 10:18 PM

South African White Farmers' Land to be Seized in Controversial Land Redistribution Claim

Source: Newsweek

The South African government has begun the process of seizing land from owners in cases where the negotiation for compensation has stalled. Two game farms in Limpopo province are being targeted after the government offered the owners one-tenth of the asking price.

The process moved forward after negotiations with the white owners of the properties stalled, according to South Africa's City Press newspaper. Akkerland Boerdery, the company of property owners Johan Steenkamp and Arnold Cloete, demanded 200 million rand ($13.7 million) for the land, but is being offered just 20 million rand ($1.37 million).

Earlier this year, Akkerland Boerdery was sent notice that an inspection of the properties would be held in order to audit their value before being handed over to the state.

Steenkamp told Newsweek that the decision was delivered on very short notice during a long weekend of South African public holidays in March. The notice demanded that the keys to the farm be handed over within seven days, forcing them to seek legal representation and file an urgent application to the courts.

Read more: https://www.newsweek.com/south-africa-begins-seizure-land-game-farmers-1081286

164 replies, 10458 views

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Reply South African White Farmers' Land to be Seized in Controversial Land Redistribution Claim (Original post)
Calista241 Aug 2018 OP
LenaBaby61 Aug 2018 #1
EX500rider Aug 2018 #12
Recursion Aug 2018 #33
EX500rider Aug 2018 #35
Recursion Aug 2018 #38
EX500rider Aug 2018 #39
Recursion Aug 2018 #40
Coventina Aug 2018 #43
EX500rider Aug 2018 #44
Recursion Aug 2018 #46
EX500rider Aug 2018 #49
john657 Aug 2018 #42
Recursion Aug 2018 #45
john657 Aug 2018 #47
john657 Aug 2018 #51
GulfCoast66 Aug 2018 #54
john657 Aug 2018 #65
Recursion Aug 2018 #75
john657 Aug 2018 #83
Recursion Aug 2018 #89
john657 Aug 2018 #95
wasupaloopa Aug 2018 #127
Recursion Aug 2018 #130
wasupaloopa Aug 2018 #160
MichMan Aug 2018 #128
john657 Aug 2018 #132
MichMan Aug 2018 #134
john657 Aug 2018 #135
Drahthaardogs Aug 2018 #78
john657 Aug 2018 #84
Coventina Aug 2018 #86
john657 Aug 2018 #87
Coventina Aug 2018 #88
christx30 Aug 2018 #146
Coventina Aug 2018 #149
christx30 Aug 2018 #150
Coventina Aug 2018 #158
RhodeIslandOne Aug 2018 #151
Yupster Aug 2018 #156
Coventina Aug 2018 #157
RhodeIslandOne Aug 2018 #161
Coventina Aug 2018 #162
Demsrule86 Aug 2018 #163
john657 Aug 2018 #164
DBoon Aug 2018 #101
WestIndianArchie Aug 2018 #76
EX500rider Aug 2018 #97
WestIndianArchie Aug 2018 #99
EX500rider Aug 2018 #103
WestIndianArchie Aug 2018 #107
EX500rider Aug 2018 #111
Hoyt Aug 2018 #105
EX500rider Aug 2018 #109
Hoyt Aug 2018 #112
EX500rider Aug 2018 #113
Hoyt Aug 2018 #114
EX500rider Aug 2018 #115
PETRUS Aug 2018 #129
EX500rider Aug 2018 #131
PETRUS Aug 2018 #159
john657 Aug 2018 #119
Hoyt Aug 2018 #126
john657 Aug 2018 #133
Hoyt Aug 2018 #136
john657 Aug 2018 #137
Hoyt Aug 2018 #138
Post removed Aug 2018 #116
EX500rider Aug 2018 #118
john657 Aug 2018 #121
EX500rider Aug 2018 #122
Judi Lynn Aug 2018 #153
EX500rider Aug 2018 #155
Jake Stern Aug 2018 #2
NickB79 Aug 2018 #23
Jake Stern Aug 2018 #24
christx30 Aug 2018 #66
samir.g Aug 2018 #3
Ron Obvious Aug 2018 #4
Yupster Aug 2018 #6
Honeycombe8 Aug 2018 #8
RhodeIslandOne Aug 2018 #34
brush Aug 2018 #14
dbackjon Aug 2018 #27
FrodosNewPet Aug 2018 #9
obamanut2012 Aug 2018 #20
EX500rider Aug 2018 #13
LanternWaste Aug 2018 #18
EX500rider Aug 2018 #19
dbackjon Aug 2018 #29
GulfCoast66 Aug 2018 #55
dbackjon Aug 2018 #90
NickB79 Aug 2018 #22
GulfCoast66 Aug 2018 #5
brush Aug 2018 #15
Bo Aug 2018 #7
moreland01 Aug 2018 #10
Adrahil Aug 2018 #11
brush Aug 2018 #16
Adrahil Aug 2018 #17
Jake Stern Aug 2018 #21
brush Aug 2018 #68
Yupster Aug 2018 #67
brush Aug 2018 #69
Yupster Aug 2018 #71
brush Aug 2018 #72
Yupster Aug 2018 #73
brush Aug 2018 #79
samir.g Aug 2018 #25
happy feet Aug 2018 #26
dbackjon Aug 2018 #28
Jake Stern Aug 2018 #30
brush Aug 2018 #70
john657 Aug 2018 #32
BannonsLiver Aug 2018 #62
john657 Aug 2018 #63
GulfCoast66 Aug 2018 #58
Judi Lynn Aug 2018 #123
Coventina Aug 2018 #31
EX500rider Aug 2018 #36
Coventina Aug 2018 #41
EX500rider Aug 2018 #48
Coventina Aug 2018 #50
EX500rider Aug 2018 #52
Coventina Aug 2018 #53
EX500rider Aug 2018 #56
Coventina Aug 2018 #57
EX500rider Aug 2018 #59
Coventina Aug 2018 #61
EX500rider Aug 2018 #64
Coventina Aug 2018 #80
EX500rider Aug 2018 #106
Coventina Aug 2018 #139
EX500rider Aug 2018 #143
Coventina Aug 2018 #145
EX500rider Aug 2018 #98
Coventina Aug 2018 #140
EX500rider Aug 2018 #141
Coventina Aug 2018 #144
EX500rider Aug 2018 #147
Coventina Aug 2018 #148
EX500rider Aug 2018 #60
Coventina Aug 2018 #81
EX500rider Aug 2018 #100
Coventina Aug 2018 #142
Judi Lynn Aug 2018 #152
cntrfthrs Aug 2018 #37
Yupster Aug 2018 #74
jberryhill Aug 2018 #82
Codeine Aug 2018 #85
WestIndianArchie Aug 2018 #77
MosheFeingold Aug 2018 #91
DavidDvorkin Aug 2018 #92
WestIndianArchie Aug 2018 #96
Jake Stern Aug 2018 #102
WestIndianArchie Aug 2018 #104
Jake Stern Aug 2018 #108
WestIndianArchie Aug 2018 #110
MosheFeingold Aug 2018 #117
EllieBC Aug 2018 #124
MosheFeingold Aug 2018 #154
DavidDvorkin Aug 2018 #120
dbackjon Aug 2018 #93
Steerpike Aug 2018 #94
oneshooter Aug 2018 #125

Response to Calista241 (Original post)

Mon Aug 20, 2018, 10:34 PM

1. Wonderful ...

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Response to LenaBaby61 (Reply #1)

Tue Aug 21, 2018, 11:52 AM

12. So if your family bought land in S Africa hundreds of years ago..

...and your family has lived the for generations, you think it is "wonderful"?
Turning game reserves into subsistence farms not really "wonderful" at all for the endangered species or their habitat.
And one only has to look at Zimbabwe to see just how well this will work out.

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Response to EX500rider (Reply #12)

Tue Aug 21, 2018, 08:50 PM

33. This is why we should end inheritance

Questions like this stop being a problem.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #33)

Tue Aug 21, 2018, 09:43 PM

35. Who better to inherit your property then your children or wife?

Certainly not the State.

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Response to EX500rider (Reply #35)

Tue Aug 21, 2018, 09:52 PM

38. Society.

I won't care; I'll be dead.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #38)

Tue Aug 21, 2018, 09:53 PM

39. So fuck your wife, children or parents? The State deserves your property more? Not.

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Response to EX500rider (Reply #39)

Tue Aug 21, 2018, 09:55 PM

40. Are you seriously arguing against the inheritance tax here? This is DU.

My children will be able to stand on their own two feet or I've failed as a parent. I never got an inheritance. Most people don't. We should tax that insanely high, and give everybody a nest egg at 18.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #40)

Tue Aug 21, 2018, 09:58 PM

43. Thank you! Inherited wealth is one of the biggest social ills of modern civilization

I could make the allowance for one modest property to be handed down, but that's it.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #40)

Tue Aug 21, 2018, 10:02 PM

44. I didn't argue against any tax, you said do away with inheritance, that is not a tax..

....that is appropriation.

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Response to EX500rider (Reply #44)

Tue Aug 21, 2018, 10:04 PM

46. There's zero difference

Inherited wealth is a scourge on society.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #46)

Tue Aug 21, 2018, 10:11 PM

49. ...in your opinion, others mileage may vary.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #38)

Tue Aug 21, 2018, 09:57 PM

42. So when I pass on,

 

I won't be able to leave my business with my kids?

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Response to john657 (Reply #42)

Tue Aug 21, 2018, 10:03 PM

45. What benefit is that to society?

Why should they get a business while people who were less lucky than them get nothing?

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Response to Recursion (Reply #45)

Tue Aug 21, 2018, 10:07 PM

47. Because we worked our ass off to make it successful, with the intent to leave it to my kids to run,

 

Last edited Wed Aug 22, 2018, 12:12 AM - Edit history (1)

so why shouldn't they be able to keep on running a successful business that employs 45 people?
Isn't that a benefit to society? My business makes it possible for my employees to make a comfortable living and to provide for their families.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #45)

Tue Aug 21, 2018, 10:16 PM

51. And, my business supports other businesses who supply my business with materials

 

so, again, how is that not beneficial to society?

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Response to Recursion (Reply #45)

Tue Aug 21, 2018, 10:27 PM

54. Lucky? I have had plenty of privileges in my life.

But calling what I worked for lucky is bullshit.

I got a college degree from my parents. And I am I white male.

But after college I was poor.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #45)

Wed Aug 22, 2018, 12:07 AM

65. So please explain to me why my kids,

 

who worked just as hard as me to make my business successful, shouldn't enjoy the fruits of their hard work upon my passing or retiring?

As far as them being lucky, that's utter bullshit, they earned and deserve it.

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Response to john657 (Reply #65)

Wed Aug 22, 2018, 07:07 AM

75. They should have taken sweat equity while they were doing it, then

That's an easy way around it.

Still surprised to see such a pushback against a high inheritance tax on DU.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #75)

Wed Aug 22, 2018, 09:09 AM

83. This isn't about a high inheritance tax,

 

this about you saying that my kids don't deserve the fruits of their hard labor upon my passing or retiring.

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Response to john657 (Reply #83)

Wed Aug 22, 2018, 09:51 AM

89. They don't deserve the fruits of *your* labor

Inherited wealth is a scourge on society.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #89)

Wed Aug 22, 2018, 12:22 PM

95. We'll just have to agree to disagree,

 

and I disagree vehemently.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #89)

Wed Aug 22, 2018, 06:17 PM

127. Probably because you aren't getting it.

 

When you were born nobody promised you a perfect world. You get your cards and you play them the best way you can. You donít get someone elseís money because you are Society.

Sorry but thatís life pal.

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Response to wasupaloopa (Reply #127)

Wed Aug 22, 2018, 07:55 PM

130. Well actually yeah society does get people's money

It's called taxation and eminent domain, and the idea that they're illegitimate is RW propaganda.

The farmers were offered a buyout for their property. They decided it wasn't enough. Their call.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #130)

Thu Aug 23, 2018, 11:04 AM

160. You don't get a dead person's money because

 

you are Society.

People work hard so their kids have a better life than they did. At least in theory.

They donít work hard so you can sponge off of them. Itís your job to make your life what it is.

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Response to john657 (Reply #83)

Wed Aug 22, 2018, 06:37 PM

128. By high, you said no inheritance at all

Last edited Wed Aug 22, 2018, 08:12 PM - Edit history (1)

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Response to MichMan (Reply #128)

Wed Aug 22, 2018, 08:49 PM

132. Huh?

 

Try as I might, I can't find anywhere I said that.

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Response to john657 (Reply #132)

Wed Aug 22, 2018, 09:12 PM

134. Sorry, I was replying to Recursion

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Response to MichMan (Reply #134)

Wed Aug 22, 2018, 09:13 PM

135. No problem.

 

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Response to john657 (Reply #65)

Wed Aug 22, 2018, 07:46 AM

78. What you described isn't a problem

What is a problem are families like the Waltons. Sam's great, great, grandchildren won't have to work. That's how aristocracies are born, and it's a problem.

Getting a lot of money YOU never personally worked to earn is rife with issues. That is what is going on now in this country. The rich are insatiable and the country is poorer while their wealth increases.

Robust inheritance taxes are GOOD for a country.

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Response to Drahthaardogs (Reply #78)

Wed Aug 22, 2018, 09:11 AM

84. I have no problem with that,

 

but what Recursion is saying is that my kids don't deserve to inherit the business that we worked so hard to make successful, that, IMO, is just crazy.

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Response to john657 (Reply #84)

Wed Aug 22, 2018, 09:18 AM

86. Sting is a good example of what responsible rich people do.

He is leaving his kids just enough of his money to get by, but if they want to live comfortably they will have to work.

The rest of his money he is giving away during his lifetime.

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Response to Coventina (Reply #86)

Wed Aug 22, 2018, 09:21 AM

87. And that's exactly what my wife and I are doing.

 

We're not rich, far from it, but we do live comfortable and our kids work at the business and will continue to work there after we retire.

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Response to john657 (Reply #87)

Wed Aug 22, 2018, 09:31 AM

88. I can't speak for others, but I'm totally OK with that.

The destructive type of inherited wealth is counted in multiple millions of dollars (and, increasingly, billions).

Not small, family-owned businesses.

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Response to Coventina (Reply #86)

Wed Aug 22, 2018, 09:47 PM

146. And Sting is free to decide for himself how

to dispose of the income he as worked for and built up over the course of his life. If I were in his shoes, I wouldn't go that way. I didn't work for society. I worked for myself and my family. If society ever went crazy like that, and the laws were changed to disallow inheritance, I would quietly hide my wealth little-by-little and let my children have it after my death.
When I was working 2 jobs, I worked my second one under the table so I could have as much as I could for my own survival. I hated myself, I hated the world. I was one piece of bad news away from killing myself. I figure, I was working between 65 and 80 hours a week, I deserved to get every dime I could get. Some months, that extra money meant we weren't living on the streets.
My point being people are going to do what they feel they have to do to benefit their families. They aren't going to say, "Sure. Here ya go." You know how people say "The world doesn't owe you a thing?" Well, it's mutual.

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Response to christx30 (Reply #146)

Wed Aug 22, 2018, 09:58 PM

149. Wow. That's truly sad. I thought as democrats we believed that part of the societal

contract was helping our fellow citizens.

Now it's all about me getting mine and to hell with everyone else?

That's just really sad.

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Response to Coventina (Reply #149)

Thu Aug 23, 2018, 12:37 AM

150. The question is "how much is enough"?

Do you decide when I've given enough? Or can I? If I pay taxes on 100 hours of work on a 2 week check, can I work another 30 hours just for me? Or is that, somehow, wrong? Where has society failed me that forces me to work like that just to survive?

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Response to christx30 (Reply #150)

Thu Aug 23, 2018, 10:34 AM

158. Society hasn't failed you, the rich are hoarding their wealth.

If wealth were distributed, then everybody would be getting by just fine.

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Response to Coventina (Reply #149)

Thu Aug 23, 2018, 01:54 AM

151. What is "just enough to get by"?

 

If you wish to distribute it to five kids.....or maybe a dozen grandchildren......$25,000......$100,000? Half a million? There's evidence out there it won't be long before none of that will put your multiple grand kids thru any good college. You have to define for me what "rich" is, and if it will be "enough to get by" five, ten, twenty years from now.

My father would be considered "a trust fund baby" thirty years ago. He and my mother are barely able to pay their property taxes now.

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Response to RhodeIslandOne (Reply #151)

Thu Aug 23, 2018, 10:09 AM

156. I'm in this position right now

According to every software program I've run I can retire whenever I want to.

But I haven't retired yet.

Why?

What if the stock market crashes the first two years of retirement?

What if we have 1981 style inflation?

It's real hard to know when you have enough.

So I keep working one more year.

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Response to RhodeIslandOne (Reply #151)

Thu Aug 23, 2018, 10:33 AM

157. And part of the reason it is so difficult to get by, is the hoarding done by the rich.

If wealth were distributed, we wouldn't even need to have this conversation.

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Response to Coventina (Reply #157)

Thu Aug 23, 2018, 06:07 PM

161. But you don't answer the question

 

Where do you draw the line of whose ďtoo richĒ for your liking?

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Response to RhodeIslandOne (Reply #161)

Thu Aug 23, 2018, 06:54 PM

162. No estate should be more than $5 million dollars, max, bequeathed to individuals.

After that, you designate charities, or let the state deal with it.

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Response to john657 (Reply #65)

Thu Aug 23, 2018, 07:16 PM

163. If I win the lottery I have to pay taxes. You started the business...taxes need to be paid by the

heirs. Inheritance needs to be taxed.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #163)

Thu Aug 23, 2018, 07:49 PM

164. I pay my quarterly taxes religiously,

 

and my kids won't inherent the business, they already own part of it.

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Response to EX500rider (Reply #35)

Wed Aug 22, 2018, 03:40 PM

101. Why not?

Automatic inheritance creates a hereditary aristocracy and inevitably concentrates wealth into a permanent ruling class

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Response to EX500rider (Reply #12)

Wed Aug 22, 2018, 07:21 AM

76. Not bought, I think the word you are looking for is stolen

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Response to WestIndianArchie (Reply #76)

Wed Aug 22, 2018, 03:31 PM

97. No, it is not.

Some of the land was originally stolen, some was empty, some was bought. So it is entirely possible to live on a farm/ranch etc in South Africa that was legally obtained. Plus modern farms/ranches could have been purchased entirely legally recently from previous owners.

Only about 10,000 to 15,000 nomadic San (hunter-gathers) and Khoikhoi (pastoral herders) lived in SW Africa before the smallpox epidemics killed many of them after 1500AD. They certainly weren't occupying all almost 500,000 sq miles of South Africa with that few people when the Dutch founded Cape Town in 1652.

They weren't going to be able to hold on to that much territory no matter what, the Bantu (who had already pushed them south in the 1st place) and later the Zulu would have taken over if the Dutch hadn't arrived.

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Response to EX500rider (Reply #97)

Wed Aug 22, 2018, 03:35 PM

99. I rest my case.

You have acknowledged that land was stolen but some of it was purchased. You sound like a cartoon comic.

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Response to WestIndianArchie (Reply #99)

Wed Aug 22, 2018, 03:44 PM

103. Less stolen and more occupied....

....with less then 10,000 tribesman living in over 400,000 square miles most of it would be empty most the time.
And if someones grandparents bought a farm in the 1950's from native africans how would that be "stolen"?

It's not like the land didn't change hands MANY times in history. The Bantu/Xhosa tribes were conquering and displacing the Khoisan people when the Dutch showed up.

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Response to EX500rider (Reply #103)

Wed Aug 22, 2018, 03:53 PM

107. Now your reaching

What does anything you stated mean? I'll answer it for you "nothing". The colonizers/imperialist were simply making productive use of the land.

So let me guess, Taking their land, was the most practical and rightful thing to do, they weren't using it.

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Response to WestIndianArchie (Reply #107)

Wed Aug 22, 2018, 04:03 PM

111. Actually in the 1600's you could either hold on to your land...

...or you couldn't. Right or wrong had little to do with it unfortunately.
That's the way it was and the way the African tribes themselves operated or the Khoisan tribes never would have left the more fertile grasslands bordering the Kalahari, they were pushed south by the Bantu and conquered or assimilated or fled.

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Response to EX500rider (Reply #12)

Wed Aug 22, 2018, 03:49 PM

105. Yes. Old time white land owners killed thousands of indigenous people to protect their land.

Screw them. They are lucky they werenít imprisoned for their racist crimes and backing apartheid.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #105)

Wed Aug 22, 2018, 03:55 PM

109. And yet it is still possible to have legally obtained land in S Africa recently..

....and have the government want to come take it away because of your skin color.
Not every white person in S Africa is descended from original colonists. Some are more recent immigrants and blameless for thing that happened 300 years ago.

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Response to EX500rider (Reply #109)

Wed Aug 22, 2018, 04:04 PM

112. Why is it gunners are so upset about racists getting $1.5 million

for land they or their parents likely stole and/or kept by apartheid?

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #112)

Wed Aug 22, 2018, 04:07 PM

113. Most sensible people think Zimbabwe 2.0 is a bad idea.

"they or their parents likely stole and/or kept by apartheid"

Or possibly legally bought.

"Why is it gunners are so upset about racists getting a $1.5 million"
What do guns have to do with it?
How do you know they are "racists"? Magic 8 Ball tell you so or what?

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Response to EX500rider (Reply #113)

Wed Aug 22, 2018, 04:09 PM

114. Seems to be a correlation among those standing up for the white SA landowners

on this thread.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #114)

Wed Aug 22, 2018, 04:13 PM

115. I am against arbitrary land confiscation anytime anywhere.

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Response to EX500rider (Reply #115)

Wed Aug 22, 2018, 06:54 PM

129. Is that so?

If I had more time, it would be amusing to pull on that thread and see what unravels.

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Response to PETRUS (Reply #129)

Wed Aug 22, 2018, 08:09 PM

131. That is so.

Why, do you think I am secretly pro-arbitrary land confiscation?

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Response to EX500rider (Reply #131)

Thu Aug 23, 2018, 10:35 AM

159. It's not that I suspect you of misrepresenting your opinion.

It's that I wonder to what extent you've thought it through, and whether or not there's a coherent set of principles behind your statement.

First of all, it's safe to say that most every party who has ever seized land has some kind of justification, including the example in the OP. "Arbitrary" is a matter of perspective and opinion.

More importantly, all land was initially un-owned. The first assertions of ownership were acts of confiscation. The disposition of land ownership today involves a history of repeated seizure. Without confiscation, no one would have legal title to any land, and there would be no nation states - certainly no USA.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #114)

Wed Aug 22, 2018, 04:21 PM

119. You should go see a doctor for that torn tendon you suffered reaching for that conclusion.

 

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Response to john657 (Reply #119)

Wed Aug 22, 2018, 06:10 PM

126. No doctor necessary. Gunz and apartheid are highly correlated.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #126)

Wed Aug 22, 2018, 08:50 PM

133. If you say so. N/T

 

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Response to john657 (Reply #133)

Wed Aug 22, 2018, 09:15 PM

136. I do, and I've said it plenty of times before including to your buddy GGJohn. Sorry to hear of his

passing, despite our differences.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #136)

Wed Aug 22, 2018, 09:19 PM

137. Thank you for that,

 

and just to be clear, I am no gun guy, haven't touched a firearm since my discharge from the Army.

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Response to john657 (Reply #137)

Wed Aug 22, 2018, 09:23 PM

138. Well, that's good.

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Response to Post removed (Reply #116)

Wed Aug 22, 2018, 04:20 PM

118. Personal attacks....the definite sign someone has lost a argument on the internet.

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Response to EX500rider (Reply #118)

Wed Aug 22, 2018, 04:38 PM

121. Oops, I guess personal attacks are verboten.

 

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Response to john657 (Reply #121)

Wed Aug 22, 2018, 04:45 PM

122. That one was certainly was, called me some quite nasty things.

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Response to EX500rider (Reply #122)

Thu Aug 23, 2018, 02:35 AM

153. Not so much, coming from someone who saw that post before it was removed.

I remember seeing your accusation to the poster, and thinking that was a deeply exaggerated response, and wondering how you got to that reply, and why you did it. The post in question was completely forgettable, compared to anything which would have been considered an attack. I can only remember your answer, and not a word from his or her post jumped out at me enough to even be remembered. Odd.

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Response to Judi Lynn (Reply #153)

Thu Aug 23, 2018, 10:03 AM

155. That's nice.

Unfortunately calling someone a "white supremacist self hating coward" as I was in that post is frowned on by the TOS, juries and me. You have a nice day now.

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Response to Calista241 (Original post)

Mon Aug 20, 2018, 10:47 PM

2. Apparently somebody hasn't been paying attention

to what's been happening north of the Limpopo. Perhaps they would have seen what an epic disaster this type of shit begets.

It's telling that one of the first acts of the military government that bounced Bob Mugabe was to plead with whites to return to Zim.

The Zimbabwean Government's message to exiled farmers is clear. Come home.

It is offering land leases to commercial farmers in an effort to re-start the nation's agricultural industry.

-Snip-

"We are saying, if you are Zimbabwean, there is now a real opportunity to come back home with your skills and be part of the building team."

The Government is now offering 99-year leases to white farmers, a deal previously reserved for black Zimbabweans.

The resignation of president Robert Mugabe last November and the swearing in of his successor Emmerson Mnangagwa has delivered significant change.

Government officials now admit the campaign of farm invasions that began in 2000 was a mistake.

"Clearly, the formulas deployed then, left a lot of bad feeling. And more importantly, the intellectual property, left our borders," Mr Nyabadza said.


[link:http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-02-03/zimbabwes-exiled-farmers-urged-to-return/9392322|

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Response to Jake Stern (Reply #2)

Tue Aug 21, 2018, 03:38 PM

23. Why would they want to return?

One, they're leasing land they once owned, which is a slap in the face to any farmer. And two, the Zimbabwean government has already shown how much legally binding contracts and land titles meant to them a decade ago.

The farmers that return will be the ones interested in growing cash crops for export to China who will only care about making as much money in as short a time as possible, in case they get their leases revoked in the future. The farmers who would work to create sustainable farms to support the local population will stay far away.

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Response to NickB79 (Reply #23)

Tue Aug 21, 2018, 03:41 PM

24. Very much so

And SA is heading straight down that path.

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Response to NickB79 (Reply #23)

Wed Aug 22, 2018, 01:17 AM

66. I agree fully.

Once something is stolen by a government, why would anyone trust them to not do it again. A contract doesn't mean anything when the other side holds AK-47's.
If I were a white farmer in SA, I'd take whatever money I had and move to Australia.

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Response to Calista241 (Original post)

Mon Aug 20, 2018, 10:53 PM

3. Now they can divide it equitably among the real owners

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Response to samir.g (Reply #3)

Mon Aug 20, 2018, 11:21 PM

4. And who might that be then?

I'm guessing you know exactly nothing about South Africa.

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Response to Ron Obvious (Reply #4)

Mon Aug 20, 2018, 11:27 PM

6. My guess is in an amazing coincidence, the real owners

will turn out to be relatives of the President, his wife, and other government ministers.

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Response to Yupster (Reply #6)

Tue Aug 21, 2018, 12:26 AM

8. Seems like a coal mining company wants that land.

Hate to hear that. First, it'll destroy the land. Second, it's a dying industry.

But yeah...the govt is not going to just "give" land away, and certainly not to the poor blacks.

What's disturbing is it seems as if companies and tribes are going around claiming land, and the white landowners have little or no say in disputing the claim.

Oh, well...I don't know enough about it, really. Not my country. But once apartheid was repealed, I probably would have moved elsewhere, if I were a white farmer there, knowing that the origin of much of the land was stolen, and the lives it devastated.

Although, there, like here with immigrants, generations of whites had lived there and those people had nothing to do with what had happened, and were citizens of the African country and knew no other country as home.

This is what happens when you go around invading places and stealing land.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #8)

Tue Aug 21, 2018, 09:26 PM

34. Some people don't think beyond the headline. n/m

 

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Response to Ron Obvious (Reply #4)

Tue Aug 21, 2018, 12:33 PM

14. It's a can of worms most don't want to open but it's similar too who are the original owners...

of the land here in the USóNative Americans or you know who?

The Zimbabweans seem to have found a workable solution (see post #2.

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Response to Ron Obvious (Reply #4)

Tue Aug 21, 2018, 04:56 PM

27. It sure isn't the Zulus...

 

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Response to samir.g (Reply #3)

Tue Aug 21, 2018, 03:32 AM

9. If they do, hopefully they will also provide financing and education to run a succesful farm

If it is only a case of giving the land away, without the education and resources to successfully run a farm, then the land will not be productive, the equipment will break down and corrode, and people will lose everything they own in bankruptcy. Farming is A LOT more than plant some seeds, harvest the crops, and sell them somewhere.

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Response to FrodosNewPet (Reply #9)

Tue Aug 21, 2018, 02:39 PM

20. There are already rumbles it will be mined

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Response to samir.g (Reply #3)

Tue Aug 21, 2018, 11:55 AM

13. What "real owners"?

....much of the land was empty when the Dutch moved in, the Portuguese brought small pox to the tribes around 1500, by the time the Dutch founded Cape Town in 1652 the native nomadic pastoral Khoikhoi tribes were decimated in number. The Dutch did buy some land from them. The native population was so small the Dutch imported slaves from Indonesia and Madagascar.

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Response to EX500rider (Reply #13)

Tue Aug 21, 2018, 01:34 PM

18. A inaccurate premise forwarded by Holden in 1866

"much of the land was empty when the Dutch moved in..."

A inaccurate premise forwarded by Holden in 1866 (The Past and Future of the Kaffir Races). Much of the idea of the 'vacant land' myth in African colonial history rests on white/colonial misunderstanding of African sovereignty and land use.

Most of the Bantu and KhoiKhoi used land in rotation, often leaving large sections of land fallow while they cultivated another region or moved their herds to greener pastures. As pastoralists they would migrate through various grazing-grounds, thereby appearing to leave a grazing ground not in current use 'empty'.

In the 1980s revisionist and liberal historians and archaeologists began to argue against the theory of an empty land. Using new archaeological evidence they were able to show the presence of Bantu like people in the eastern half of South Africa since around 300 AD.


(Source: Africa: A Modern History by Guy Arnold & South Africa: Conquest, Discrimination, and Development by Ellen McArthur)

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Response to LanternWaste (Reply #18)

Tue Aug 21, 2018, 02:18 PM

19. Unfortunately nomadic tribes making occasional stops in a area...

....does not equal ownership in the modern world, especially in the 1600's.
Yes the Bantu etc had been there for centuries...but after the smallpox epidemics there was indeed some empty land. Some tribes were completely wiped out by the disease.
And if the Dutch hadn't pushed the Khoikhoi aside the Xhosa and later the Zulu would have.
Either way stealing someones land they might have owned for over 350 years (and some of the land was bought from the Khoi)
is as wrong as when the Dutch did it.
And looking at the example of Zimbabwe (or Venezuela) isn't going to improve things in S Africa but make them worse.
Turning game reserves into small subsistence farms is not a improvement for the animals or habitat either.

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Response to LanternWaste (Reply #18)

Tue Aug 21, 2018, 05:02 PM

29. The Bantu were just as much of colonial oppressors as the Dutch

 

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Response to dbackjon (Reply #29)

Tue Aug 21, 2018, 10:31 PM

55. Careful now.

On DU the truth will not always set you free.

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Reply #55)

Wed Aug 22, 2018, 11:11 AM

90. Yup - but the truth should never be surpressed or ignored if unpleasant

 

Otherwise we are Republicans.

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Response to samir.g (Reply #3)

Tue Aug 21, 2018, 03:32 PM

22. These are game farms per the OP

Hunting preserves that serve to keep alive populations of wildlife that are disappearing elsewhere due to habitat loss.

And you want to divide these up for more farming. Nice.

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Response to Calista241 (Original post)

Mon Aug 20, 2018, 11:25 PM

5. Great. Another Zimbabwe.

Which used to be the bread basket of Africa. The government in SA has reached the point most thought they had avoided in the 90s. They have found the new enemy to keep them in power.

Land will now be given as political favors and production will go to shit.

If they go the full Zimbabwe route look for food shortages in 5-10 years.

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Reply #5)

Tue Aug 21, 2018, 12:39 PM

15. See post #2 about Zimbabwe.

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Response to Calista241 (Original post)

Mon Aug 20, 2018, 11:49 PM

7. And the EU is NO WHERE to be found

.....oh yea are taxes will be going to give these idiots to eat in about 2 years. Lovely.

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Response to Calista241 (Original post)

Tue Aug 21, 2018, 07:12 AM

10. Holy Crap!

Did you read the comments at the bottom of this Newsweek article? People have zero compunction now about spewing their white supremacist hate. Scary.

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Response to Calista241 (Original post)

Tue Aug 21, 2018, 07:40 AM

11. This is NOT a good idea.

 

I understand the sentiment. But we've seen this movie before. It didn't end well.


Unless South Africa has a plan to ensure these farms are farmed WELL, and that the former owners are treated justly, this is just going to stoke racial resentment and result in failed farms. I think Nelson Mandela would not support such an effort.

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Response to Adrahil (Reply #11)

Tue Aug 21, 2018, 12:45 PM

16. See post number 2. There is an equitable solution.

And btw, our country has not handled the situation of the original inhabitants of this land wellómost Native Americans live on reservations.

If the Native Americans had been successful in the Indian Wars, wonder how they would've dealt with the whites?

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Response to brush (Reply #16)

Tue Aug 21, 2018, 01:13 PM

17. I'm not saying you are wrong....

 

But one of the main points of Mandela's approach was was to avoid vengance taking and to seek an equitable future for all South Africans.

I was was glad to see Zimbabwe finally renounce the politics of racial resentment.

I guess I don't see the point here of destroying productive farms. If redistribution of wealth is the goal, then tax the farms sufficiently to do so.

These kinds of land seizures will almost always result in crop failures and mismanagement.

Good luck South Africa!

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Response to brush (Reply #16)

Tue Aug 21, 2018, 03:14 PM

21. The response to that plea has been rather negative

While a couple of white farmers have returned, most have said "we'll pass".

"Why?" You may ask.

First many of these farmers moved to places like Zambia, Nigeria and Mozambique which largely let them do their thing in peace, as long as they follow the rules - which typically means staying out of local politics.

Second, Zim's government doesn't exactly have a stellar record of enforcing the rule of law, property rights and contracts. These farmers have no assurance, other than the president's word, that a future government won't again whip up anti-white sentiment and move to revoke those leases in order to score political points.

Mugabe worked very hard to chase out whites and foreign investors and in the process shattered the country's reputation.

Why would I take a chance on a business venture in Zim, where it could be seized at any moment by politicians out to win votes, when I can set up shop nextdoor in Zambia where the government has shown it honors property rights and contracts?

Unfortunately it's probably going to take a while to repair their reputation BEFORE they can even begin attracting solid investment.

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Response to Jake Stern (Reply #21)

Wed Aug 22, 2018, 01:50 AM

68. So it is then. The country will have to build itself. Easier to do without white supremacy though.

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Response to brush (Reply #16)

Wed Aug 22, 2018, 01:45 AM

67. Just put yourself in the position of a white Zimbabwean farmer

who was forced from his family farm. His farm was given to the president's wife and then he watched it go to hell. The equipment was destroyed or sold off and the crops turned to dust. You cried.

Now you're in Canada or Australia and you get an invite from the government saying they changed their mind and are now willing to rent your land back to you with certain stipulations. Lucky you, the program that has been available to people with black skin is now going to be opened to you even though you have white skin. And if some militia guys take a few shots at your family, just call 911 and the police will come. Hopefully they weren't the militia guys.

Could you answer that invitation with anything other than a guffaw?

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Response to Yupster (Reply #67)

Wed Aug 22, 2018, 02:00 AM

69. It's not ideal. I agree. The country will have to build itself up if there are no takers.

It'll be a hard, decades-long slog. Frankly it won't be as complicated without the specter of white supremacy dragging down the self-esteem of Zimbabweans.

There will be the ever-present dash and corruption. I hope that gets minimized over time and the country is able to grow.

What is MLK's famous quote?: "The arc of the moral universe is long but it bends towards justice."

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Response to brush (Reply #69)

Wed Aug 22, 2018, 02:15 AM

71. Yeah it's not ideal

They chased away their most productive farmers and gave the land to corrupt politicians who don't know anything about farming.

The average age of their citizens is 19 and the average woman has four babies during her lifetime causing serious population growth.

Helping to mitigate that problem a little is the annual net emigration from the country as its educated people leave the country.

Add that to the corruption, bad health care, bad education and you have a situation that is not ideal.

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Response to Yupster (Reply #71)

Wed Aug 22, 2018, 02:21 AM

72. OK, you delineated the negatives. How about one huge positive...

no more white supremacy dragging down the self-esteem of Zimbabweans.

It won't be easy but whites aren't the only ones who can figure things out. Hell, this country wouldn't have survived without the Native Americans help. And we know what happened to them.

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Response to brush (Reply #72)

Wed Aug 22, 2018, 02:45 AM

73. They could have gone for race neutral laws

and just treated everyone as Zimbabweans or is that not an option? If you do not chase the whites out of your country you must have white supremacy?

But let's hear it for self esteem? We can chase away people based on the color of their skin but we can have good self esteem about it.

And okay I'll bite. How would our country not have survived without Native American help? As a former history teacher this one has me stumped? You could argue the first colonies would not have survived the first three years without NA expertise, but after 1776? You think our country wouldn't have survived without NA help. Tell me what your thinking is?

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Response to Yupster (Reply #73)

Wed Aug 22, 2018, 08:05 AM

79. South Africa had a Mandela. Zimbabwe did not. History can't be turned back.

Last edited Wed Aug 22, 2018, 09:04 AM - Edit history (1)

The white farmers aren't coming back so the country has to start from where they are now.

It's sad but ultimately it was inevitable. The centuries of colonialism were bound to end in Africa. This historic upheaval which has played out before our eyes since the late 50s has put many in harms way, but frankly, nowhere near the number of those harmed by the centuries of white supremacy.

Different countries on the continent handled it differently. All of them, unfortunately, didn't have a Nelson Mandela.

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Response to Calista241 (Original post)

Tue Aug 21, 2018, 04:09 PM

25. surprisingly large number of apologists for colonialism

"Only white men can successfully farm, the Africans will ruin it all and starve!"

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Response to samir.g (Reply #25)

Tue Aug 21, 2018, 04:18 PM

26. Yup!

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Response to samir.g (Reply #25)

Tue Aug 21, 2018, 04:58 PM

28. Not surprisingly, someone has no clue of the history of Southern Africa

 

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Response to samir.g (Reply #25)

Tue Aug 21, 2018, 07:14 PM

30. You mean like the smashing success of farm seizures in Zimbabwe?

That is if you measure success by how much a country can turn itself from a net exporter of food to a recipient of food aid, run off foreign investment and totally sink it's economy.

That's not the white man's doing - the blame falls exclusively at the feet of Bob Mugabe and ZANU-PF.




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Response to Jake Stern (Reply #30)

Wed Aug 22, 2018, 02:14 AM

70. Give the ZimBabweans time. It'll be a long, hard slog. The Mugabe era is over.

The country will have to build itself up but perhaps a fresh start without the legacy of white supremacy and Mugabe the country will be able to prosper over time.

Whites are not the only ones who can figure things out/

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Response to samir.g (Reply #25)

Tue Aug 21, 2018, 08:21 PM

32. You've made it

 

quite clear, by your uninformed comments, that you know nothing about South Africa.

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Response to john657 (Reply #32)

Tue Aug 21, 2018, 10:52 PM

62. +10000

Issues like this bring out the worst in DU, I find. It's one of those issues that seems so simple on the surface, it invites knee jerk reactions. I've been lucky enough to spend some time in south africa and found it to be a very complex place, full of nuances I could never hope to understand. One thing I'm clear on is my fears for its future. Hard to be optimistic about that at the moment.

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Response to BannonsLiver (Reply #62)

Tue Aug 21, 2018, 10:59 PM

63. Thank you.

 

Some of the uninformed comments on this site just makes me shake my head in disbelief.

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Response to samir.g (Reply #25)

Tue Aug 21, 2018, 10:35 PM

58. I guess in your mind Zimbabwe has been a shining success

Fir the last 30 years.

Cause that is where SA could be headed.

At least the waited till Mandela was dead before rolling this bulkshit out.

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Response to samir.g (Reply #25)

Wed Aug 22, 2018, 04:57 PM

123. So glad you posted. There are subjects when posted tell you immediately who will attend,

what opinions will be repeated, and, of course, if there could be any question, why the topic was posted in the first place from the one who posted it. After witnessing the pattern enough, there is no longer any mystery.

What you have just mentioned has been the total content of Zim threads for all this long time, etc. regarding any place Europeans have invaded, enslaved, tortured, murdered and stolen.

Thank you for taking the care to make that point. White to the core and beyond Ayn Randeans apparently imagine there are enough supporters around to appreciate their efforts on progressive message boards to keep them all afloat indefinitely.

On edit, especially comical, and disgusting, is the ancient gibberish that, no matter what country is being discussed, the racist will claim that before the "whites" got their, the native population scuffled, and kicked the butts of various factions within it, so this gives "whites" right to steal and plunder, enslave, torture, and murder.

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Response to Calista241 (Original post)

Tue Aug 21, 2018, 08:16 PM

31. Game farms? Fuck those fucking fucks. Take their land, PLEASE!!!!

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Response to Coventina (Reply #31)

Tue Aug 21, 2018, 09:50 PM

36. Game farms help keep African species numbers healthier then small subsistence farms will.

That will just be more loss of habitat.

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Response to EX500rider (Reply #36)

Tue Aug 21, 2018, 09:55 PM

41. Sorry, but I'm not going to buy the crap canned hunt profiteers try to sell.

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Response to Coventina (Reply #41)

Tue Aug 21, 2018, 10:10 PM

48. You don't have to buy the truth if you don't want.

♦ Private wildlife ranches generally focus on a select few of the game species on their land for commercial use, but they provide habitat for countless species of mammals, birds, fish, insects and plants that are not commercially exploited at all. With habitat destruction being one of the primary threats to wildlife biodiversity, these private reserves often represent vitally important corridors for wildlife between designated protected areas that are increasingly surrounded by swathes of land transformed by human activity.

♦ According to statistics from Wildlife Ranching SA, on average, a single wildlife ranch of about 2 700ha that focuses on eco-tourism and biodiversity support is home to 45 mammal species, 266 bird species, 43 reptile species, 29 grass species and over 100 other tree and plant species.

♦ Several species (bontebok, blesbok, roan and sable antelope, tsessebe, black wildebeest, leopard tortoise) have been rescued from the brink of extinction thanks to the creation of these reserves and now have healthy and growing populations in the country. There were only a few hundred disease-free buffalo in the country in the late 1900s and buffalo were also facing threats of eradication due to diseases they are susceptible to. Thanks to the collaboration of national and private reserves and various breeding projects, there are now more than 36 000 disease-free buffalo in the country Ė yet another success story for conservation in SA.

https://africageographic.com/blog/private-game-reserves-vital-conservation/

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Response to EX500rider (Reply #48)

Tue Aug 21, 2018, 10:13 PM

50. Give me a break. These people make their living off of getting trophy hunters' rocks off.

If conservation was so darn precious to them, they wouldn't allow the hunting of endangered species PERIOD!

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Response to Coventina (Reply #50)

Tue Aug 21, 2018, 10:17 PM

52. So in your opinion taking a game preserve with thriving wildlife..

.....and cutting it into small fenced farming plots and cutting down the forest and planting corn/wheat etc will be better for the animals somehow? Good luck with that working out better.

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Response to EX500rider (Reply #52)

Tue Aug 21, 2018, 10:20 PM

53. WE MUST KILL THE ANIMALS TO SAVE THEM!!!

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Response to Coventina (Reply #53)

Tue Aug 21, 2018, 10:32 PM

56. So fuck habitat? The animals will survive on farms somehow? They will not.

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Response to EX500rider (Reply #56)

Tue Aug 21, 2018, 10:35 PM

57. There are MANY organizations working with farmers to ensure that both humans and animals

can survive.

This not exactly a new issue in South Africa.

Fuck hunters and those who cater to them.

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Response to Coventina (Reply #57)

Tue Aug 21, 2018, 10:36 PM

59. Turning large game preserves into small farms will be a net loss of habitat for the animals..

....no way around that.

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Response to EX500rider (Reply #59)

Tue Aug 21, 2018, 10:42 PM

61. Well managed farms are better for the wildlife than being chased, cornered, and massacred to prove a

pathetic human's "manliness."

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Response to Coventina (Reply #61)

Tue Aug 21, 2018, 11:00 PM

64. Not surprisingly farms are fenced in and discourage large herds of animals eating and..

....tromping through their crops.
There is NO way farms are better for wildlife then a wide open natural habitat....hunted or not...you do realize animals do hunt each other also?

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Response to EX500rider (Reply #64)

Wed Aug 22, 2018, 08:24 AM

80. You are seriously comparing carnivores to trophy hunters?!?!?!

FAIL!!

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Response to Coventina (Reply #80)

Wed Aug 22, 2018, 03:51 PM

106. If I was a Gazelle..

.....and had a choice of being eviscerated and then eaten alive by a pride of lions or shot once by a high powered rifle I know which one I'd hope for. YMMV.

Anyway you keep glossing over and avoiding the fact that habitat loss is the biggest threat to wild animals and no, farms are not wild life friendly, especially to grazing herds and large carnivores.
It is possible to hate trophy hunting and still realize that game preserves are maintaining a wild habitat that animals need to survive and that farms do no such thing.

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Response to EX500rider (Reply #106)

Wed Aug 22, 2018, 09:28 PM

139. You clearly have no idea how predators bring down prey.

gazelles are not "eaten alive" that's just ridiculous.

Game farms are not wildlife friendly, they are places where animals are kept for trophy hunting, so that is a pretty big threat.

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Response to Coventina (Reply #139)

Wed Aug 22, 2018, 09:40 PM

143. No, I have seen it several times on nature documentaries.

Lion prides eating prey which were not dead yet. They could care less if it's dead as long as it can't run away.

Looks like I better repost this part:

Private wildlife ranches generally focus on a select few of the game species on their land for commercial use, but they provide habitat for countless species of mammals, birds, fish, insects and plants that are not commercially exploited at all. With habitat destruction being one of the primary threats to wildlife biodiversity, these private reserves often represent vitally important corridors for wildlife between designated protected areas that are increasingly surrounded by swathes of land transformed by human activity.

Game preserves are much more wildlife friendly then small farms which don't want any wild animals in their fields.
And again, loss of habitat is the most severe problem wild animals face.

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Response to EX500rider (Reply #143)

Wed Aug 22, 2018, 09:42 PM

145. You love their propaganda, don't you?

These places are not "preserves" they are FARMS where animals are raised for trophy hunts.

Nothing you can write changes that fact.

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Response to Coventina (Reply #61)

Wed Aug 22, 2018, 03:34 PM

98. Really?

So you know of operating farms that allow wild herds of grazing animals and prides of lions etc to occupy their farmland?
Herds of Wildebeest and Cape Buffalo?
Nonsense.
They would eat and crush all the crops and the lions would be a danger to the farmhands.

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Response to EX500rider (Reply #98)

Wed Aug 22, 2018, 09:30 PM

140. Yes, because game farms are the only places in SA where herds of grazing animals live.



The disappearance of these for-profit killing fields is not going to harm wildlife in any way.

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Response to Coventina (Reply #140)

Wed Aug 22, 2018, 09:33 PM

141. I can guarantee you none of them live on working farms.

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Response to EX500rider (Reply #141)

Wed Aug 22, 2018, 09:41 PM

144. I can guarantee that you are wrong.

There are many working farms that raise beef cattle in cheetah country.....and cheetah do not hunt cattle.

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Response to Coventina (Reply #144)

Wed Aug 22, 2018, 09:49 PM

147. Show me a farm (not a ranch) with herds of wildebeest and gazelle and Cape Buffalo.,,

...or rhinos or elephants or lion prides. Farms raise crops, ranches raise livestock. Not surprising a solitary cheetah could get by on ranch land, they are built for wide open chases.

Cheetah's are but one species.
I also doubt a hungry cheetah would turn down a calf.
And even snow leopards, the smallest of the big cats, can kill cattle.

https://www.sciencenews.org/blog/wild-things/big-cats-hunt-livestock-when-wild-prey-scarce

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Response to EX500rider (Reply #147)

Wed Aug 22, 2018, 09:54 PM

148. Oh brother, now you want to play the semantics game?

This whole story is about farms, and poor widdle white farmers having their farms taken away from them.

Turns out their "crops" are animals for rich fucks to take pot shots at.

So now you suddenly want to define crops as agricultural only.

Fine, then these "farmers" are not losing "farms" but just killing fields. Boo fricking hoo.

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Response to Coventina (Reply #57)

Tue Aug 21, 2018, 10:38 PM

60. Looks like this, from worse to best outcome: (urban being the worse)

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Response to EX500rider (Reply #60)

Wed Aug 22, 2018, 08:28 AM

81. Trophy hunter propaganda.

As I said before, many wildlife organizations are working with farmers to make their farms accommodating to local wildlife.

None of them advocate trophy hunting.

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Response to Coventina (Reply #81)

Wed Aug 22, 2018, 03:37 PM

100. "many wildlife organizations are working with farmers to make their farms accommodating.."

So how does that work exactly?
How does one run a commercial farm with wild herds of animals and their predators running about the property? Answer is you can't.

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Response to EX500rider (Reply #100)

Wed Aug 22, 2018, 09:33 PM

142. I am not your Google, but I'll give you one example that I support heavily:

The Cheetah Conservation Fund

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Response to Coventina (Reply #57)

Thu Aug 23, 2018, 02:30 AM

152. Just saw this "conversation." You have something to say, believe me.

Do NOT think for a moment you voice is not well respected.

I have heard that line of attack, the worship of violent aggression, every time I've been unfortunate enough to stumble across it. I stop reading the comments as soon as I realize where they are coming from, they are ALWAYS the same, the names change, but the same moral void presents itself.

Thank you, Coventina. You speak for a multitude. We most definitely outnumber the people who live to force suffering upon the helpless when everyone knows their victims have nowhere to hide from their sickness.

I admire your patience, your organized mind, and your character. I'm throwing morality in there, too, before I leave. G'night.

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Response to Calista241 (Original post)

Tue Aug 21, 2018, 09:50 PM

37. was never their land in the first place...

This is the DU member formerly known as cntrfthrs.

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Response to cntrfthrs (Reply #37)

Wed Aug 22, 2018, 02:47 AM

74. A good point

because really no one's land was their's in the first place.

This is especially true of South Africa where you had nomads getting invaded from north and south at the same time.

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Response to Yupster (Reply #74)

Wed Aug 22, 2018, 09:04 AM

82. "no one's land was their's in the first place"

 


Bingo.

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Response to cntrfthrs (Reply #37)

Wed Aug 22, 2018, 09:14 AM

85. Neither is yours. Or mine.

 

I canít imagine any section of arable or grazeable land on the planet is in the hands of the original human inhabitants.

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Response to Calista241 (Original post)

Wed Aug 22, 2018, 07:28 AM

77. News

The absolute best news I've heard coming out of South Africa in quite some time. They came and took the land, now the true owners are in a position to take it back. Take it back. It's really simple. The white farmers do not have any legitimacy. Unless you want to argue the "I'm white and I say so" position.

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Response to WestIndianArchie (Reply #77)

Wed Aug 22, 2018, 11:29 AM

91. People might want to learn a little bit about SA

It's far more complex than black vs. white.

It's essentially multiple tribal/ethnic groups, battling for position. One (and a half) of which is largely white.

The people who will be getting this land are not the descendants from whom it was taken. Instead, it will go to yet another hostile tribal group, who happens to be black.

I also am shocked at how quick people are to blame current white citizens of SA for the crimes of other white people (some of whom are ancestors, mot not).

Should I hate present-day German children for what their grandparents did to me and my family? Of course not.

Or maybe we all deserved it because there were rich Jewish families in Germany that were rather horrid people? Hitler's hatred did not come out of a vacuum, you know. There were legitimate beefs with how certain families and individuals acted.

Collective blame of a race for acts of certain members of that race IS RACISM, REGARDLESS OF COLOR.

As it is, this will end badly. Corrupt cronies in the government will take the land.

Nothing will change, except yet another unsympathetic ethnic group will fall victim to mass extermination.

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Response to MosheFeingold (Reply #91)

Wed Aug 22, 2018, 11:34 AM

92. Thank you for that post.

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Response to MosheFeingold (Reply #91)

Wed Aug 22, 2018, 03:01 PM

96. Stop Stop Stop

I didn't say anything about hating anyone. Nor did the Government of South Africa state they are taking the land, because they hate the landowners. If I remember correctly, They want to build a more equitable existence for all of the citizens of SA (The black ones too).

The colonizers stole the land from the Africans using military force. Now the dynamic has changed and they are righting the wrongs. Surely you can understand the word, "Justice".

I don't view this situation as anything even remotely close to being complex. The land was stolen from its rightful owners and now, it is being returned to those owners. The fact that it was stolen 500 years ago or 5 days ago isn't germane to the discussion. Theft is theft.

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Response to WestIndianArchie (Reply #96)

Wed Aug 22, 2018, 03:41 PM

102. If you live anywhere in the Americas

you're living on stolen land. Are you prepared to deed your property to the descendants of the tribe that lived in the area or vacate it so a Native American can have housing?

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Response to Jake Stern (Reply #102)

Wed Aug 22, 2018, 03:45 PM

104. Stop it, stop it, stop it.

Are you a child? Because this is a child's argument. I am Algonquin!, you are living on stolen land, clever.

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Response to WestIndianArchie (Reply #104)

Wed Aug 22, 2018, 03:54 PM

108. I'm Muscogee. But I live on land that once belonged to the Comanche Nation.

Guess what? I'm still living on stolen land and so are you. This isn't my people's land any more than Florida is Algonquian land.

You can call it childish, I call it pointing out a hypocrite. You live on stolen land yet you lambaste people living on land stolen half a millennium ago.

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Response to Jake Stern (Reply #108)

Wed Aug 22, 2018, 04:01 PM

110. yeah yeah yeah

I got it, your a 5 dollar Indian. I am an aboriginal indigenous man on the land. Before all of the bullshit. Understand we were here well, before any of the degenerate european colonizers. You got it.

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Response to WestIndianArchie (Reply #104)

Wed Aug 22, 2018, 04:19 PM

117. So you're good

With Jews getting their land back from the "little river in Egypt" all the way to the Euphrates?

Or do Jews not count? Or should we try to figure out who the Canaanites are now and give it to them?

Seriously, "calling dibs" is not how land claims works. All land has been "stolen" by someone.

The current Native Americans killed and conquered those before them. It's just the way things are.

And the land in SA is not being given to the-most-recent-inhabitants-before-whites.

The Bantu tribe (a colonizing tribe who immigrated to SA and now runs SA) will take this land.

And people who bought land from the government (the source of most of the land in question), mortgaged it, worked it, should lose it to the colonizing Bantu because they're white?

That's absurd and racist.

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Response to MosheFeingold (Reply #117)

Wed Aug 22, 2018, 04:57 PM

124. Lolololololol

Moshe...cmon. Heads would explode. Especially here.

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Response to EllieBC (Reply #124)

Thu Aug 23, 2018, 08:16 AM

154. Ha

I know. I just can't stand intellectual inconsistency.

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Response to Jake Stern (Reply #102)

Wed Aug 22, 2018, 04:36 PM

120. For some reason, you're never supposed to point that out on DU.

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Response to WestIndianArchie (Reply #77)

Wed Aug 22, 2018, 11:45 AM

93. Who do you want to give it too?

 

the Majority Bantu are just as much colonial oppressors as the Dutch were.

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Response to Calista241 (Original post)

Wed Aug 22, 2018, 12:15 PM

94. It's one great big shit sandwich

and we're all going to have to take a bite...

it all went south with the colonization of Africa...there is no fair or honorable way to make this right...

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Response to Calista241 (Original post)

Wed Aug 22, 2018, 06:02 PM

125. In five years, or less, the people will be starving.

Those who will "own" the once fertile land will allow it to go to ruin. They will not be injured in any way.

This is the way of Africa, and always has been.

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