U.S. Assessing Cost Of Keeping Troops In Germany As Trump Battles With Europe

[appalachiablue]

Source: Washington Post

The Pentagon is analyzing the cost and impact of a large-scale withdrawal or transfer of American troops stationed in Germany, amid growing tensions between President Trump and German Chancellor Angela Merkel, according to people familiar with the work.

The effort follows Trump’s expression of interest in removing the troops, made during a meeting earlier this year with White House and military aides, U.S. officials said. Trump was said to have been taken aback by the size of the U.S. presence, which includes about 35,000 active-duty troops, and complained that other countries were not contributing fairly to joint security or paying enough to NATO.

Word of the assessment has alarmed European officials, who are scrambling to determine whether Trump actually intends to reposition U.S. forces or whether it is merely a negotiating tactic ahead of a NATO summit in Brussels, where Trump is again likely to criticize U.S. allies for what he deems insufficient defense spending.

U.S. officials, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to comment on the unpublicized effort, emphasized that the exercise is limited to an internal exploration of options. The top military brass are not involved as yet, and the Pentagon has not been tasked with figuring out how to execute any option...More..

Read more: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/us-assessing-cost-of-keeping-troops-in-germany-as-trump-battles-with-europe/ar-AAzlSzT

[YOHABLO]

1. What's he going to do now, pull us out of NATO? He's such a jackass.

[MBS]

48. You took the words right out of my mouth.

Why can anyone think it's a good idea to trash our alliances - ones based on commitment to democracy, defense considerations, and long-time, well-earned trust. As others have mentioned, with increasing alarm, when the US next finds itself in trouble (at the rate we're going, that's likely to be sooner rather than later), we will find ourselves all alone, with no allies to come to our aid.

[tavernier]

61. Yes.

Putin’s goal is to get the Baltics back. Always has been. This will be step one.

[Yupster]

65. That's where our troops need to be

We need to move our troops from Germany to Poland and the Baltic States.

When we put our troops in Germany that was the front line against Russia. It isn't any longer.

[Takket]

2. the alliances that have kept us all safe since WW2 are crumbling...

and no one seems to care

[unblock]

6. There is zero chance of Donnie slashing the military budget

He can whine about us spending more to protect Europe, but the truth is that all of our overseas military presence is to preserve American power, American influence, and American business interests.

We do a lot of trade with Europe and it would hurt our economy if Russia rolled through a bunch of European countries.

[quartz007]

7. We have a trade deficit with EU

Their tariffs on US goods are way higher than what we charge them.

[unblock]

11. Wrong thread?

[GulfCoast66]

23. I think he is on the wrong site.

[paleotn]

45. Ugh! That's trade in goods and NOT the whole picture...

Add in services and the deficit is tiny. Services....from systems consulting to Wall Street investment banking to Hollywood movies, are a huge plus for US trade with virtually the entire world.

Now, your completely uninformed and idiotic comment on tariffs. What specific types of US goods are the Europeans putting tariffs on? And what European goods do we tariff? Be specific. Broad brush statements lead me to believe, and I'd bet dollars to donuts I'm right, you don't have a fucking clue what you're talking about.

[GulfCoast66]

28. Actually, some do and many are heading that way.

President Obama got them to agree to do so by, I think, 2022.

And while we spend over 4% most of that is spent fucking up the rest of the world, not doing the most useful and productive thing a military can do...sitting in a defensive posture to prevent a hostile power(Russia) from feeling tempted to invade smaller, Democratic nations.

And WTF is that Crimea statement about? They are not in NATO. I damn well guarantee you Putin would not do that with a NATO member. Well, not if we had a president who did not work for Putin.

And Russia would not be able to “roll thru Europe”. The French, Czechs, Polish, British and many other nations in Europe have formidable fighting forces. Hell, just taking the rest of Ukraine would bloody Russia something fierce.

And do not forget, France and Britain are In the Nuclear club.

What’s up with you parroting Trump on DU?

[Jedi Guy]

56. Yeah, the whole "Russia would crush Europe" thing is nonsense.

Their military is nothing like what it was back in the days of the Soviet Union. I'm hardly an expert, but I seem to recall reading that most of their equipment still dates from the Soviet era. A lot of our aircraft are older, like the F-15, F-16, and B-52, but we've upgraded them significantly as newer tech has become standard. I'm curious as to whether that's true with Russia's military hardware.

In any case, if Putin decided to take a stab at military conquest in Europe, he'd quickly find the entire continent's military forces arrayed against him. And as you point out, France and the UK have nukes in addition to significant conventional forces. It'd be an ugly brawl, and a whole load of people would die, but the Russians would hardly march to the Atlantic completely unopposed.

[appalachiablue]

60. Elvis Goes To Germany 1958. (Couldn't omit this one. :))

[msongs]

3. how many soldiers does it take to run the camps? nt

[braddy]

5. I'm ex NATO and believe that we need to shake Germany and some countries out of their free ride

complacency, we are moving some troops and assets to better locations and friendlier countries in Europe.

[unblock]

8. I'm the son of a holocaust survivor and I don't believe a more militarized germany is a good thing

[unblock]

15. Oh please. This is an idiotic trump lie. Du'ers should know better

Aside from a comparatively tiny administrative budget, member states don't pay NATO. The guideline is for member states to pay 2% of their gdp into their own military, which can then be used collectively in NATO actions.

If Germany pays their "fair share", they would have to increase spending on their own military.

[unblock]

24. Removing our troops would be incredibly stupid and dangerous even if Germany went to 2%

An American military presence is worth vastly more than an equal dollar amount of German troops because the entire American military unequivocally stands behind American troops. It's less obvious to someone like putin that if America were to pull out of Germany, that we would return in spades if Russia annexed the Baltic states. They know Germany won't be in a position to challenge Russia.

In fact, leaving Germany would basically be handing the Baltic states over to Russia.

As you note, this is really a nonsense issue as far as American budgetary considerations go. It's well worth our while to have a meaningful military presence there.

[GulfCoast66]

34. Well about 100% of German defense outlays are on NATO

Of our multiple millions person military maybe 100k are in Europe. The rest are used fucking up the rest of the world.

So which nation really gives more to NATO?

And should we also bring up the French, Czechs, Nordic Nations and Britain? Even tiny Denmark has a professional military.

Right now our nukes are the real deterrent. But in our absence France and Britain could fill that gap. They are in the club.

[Calista241]

58. The US has 1.3m active duty personnel.

approximately 60k are stationed in Germany, Belgium, Italy, the United Kingdom, Spain and the rest of Europe.

[GulfCoast66]

59. That few? So way less than 1% of GDP goes to NATO

[braddy]

12. The Germans need to quit freeloading off our treasure and GIs. By the way, my dad fought the Germans

and years later I was earning my German paratrooper wings and jumping out of Luftwaffe aircraft.

Life is strange.

[unblock]

18. It would not really meaningfully change anything for us if they went from 1.2% to 2.0%.

Really I don't see how people here are getting suckered by Donnie's idiotic and ignorant lies.

[unblock]

25. Let's say Germany spent an extra $30 billion on their military

What then? Would we cut our military by the same amount? Yeah right. We'd still want a solid military presence in Germany.

[braddy]

31. Thirty billion pumped into a local purely NATO military would help greatly, and getting serious

about the quality and intensity of their combat training and quality of troops would also help. Overwhelming capabilities against Russia will prevent war.

[unblock]

36. You're making wild assertions that don't hold water

$30 billion more dollars into the German military has nothing to do with "overwhelming force against Russia". It's a drop in the ocean.

Besides, it doesn't come from nowhere. Should germany tax more in order to pay for that? Would that slow down their economy, hurting demand for American goods?

Would America then cut its own military budget by $30billion? History and politics says otherwise.

So we don't gain anything really and it hurts trade with Germany. Plus as I noted, any reduction in American Tripp's in Germany destabilizes the region to Putin's advantage.

It's a complete loser move.

Unless we're a Russian satellite state, that is....

[quartz007]

9. +10

[Iliyah]

13. Leave, Germany will be ok.

p.s. Germany can hold it's own.

It's not that they didn't know the US would favor Russia now.

[quartz007]

14. Yes, as the strongest economy in EU

Germany can take care of itself. Our troops are there since WWII, and now it is 75 years later.

[unblock]

16. Germany probably would. The Baltic states and Poland, that's another story.

[Yupster]

66. That's where our troops should be

Poland with small trigger groups in the Baltic States. How do you think Poland feels as a NATO member knowing that our troops are willing to defend them from 500 miles behind them in Germany.

[meadowlander]

17. US troops in Germany haven't been about Germany since 1945.

They are there because of Russia and the Soviet bloc.

America withdrawing its sphere of influence from Europe is Putin's wet dream, just like America backing away from its commitments to Japan and South Korea.

[Pope George Ringo II]

52. Luftwaffe readiness rates have been beyond abysmal lately.

Last month they reported four (4) Eurofighters as combat ready. Their defence ministry is something of an ongoing scandal generally. Money may or may not be the problem, and they've certainly got to get their act together, but they need a little help from their friends right now.

[DetroitLegalBeagle]

57. Not really

The German military is in terrible shape. None of its subs are operational. Their air force is entirely reliant on private contractors or outside countries for transportation due to none of its transport aircraft being operational. Its fighters and interceptors are mostly grounded due to lack of parts. Army wise, maybe only 1/3rd of their tanks in condition to be deployed. Around 20000 NCO and Officer positions are empty due to lack of personnel. And outside of their deployed units, small arms and ammunition are on short supply badly enough that rifles are moved unit to unit for training due to not having enough.

[EX500rider]

62. Yep, not the Cold War West German force it used to be:

Currently Turkey, Chile, Greece, Singapore, Spain, Switzerland and Poland each have more operational Leopard 2 tanks than Germany (which had over 2,000 in the early 1990s). This odd situation was revealed in November 2017 when it was discovered that 53 Leopard 2s were unavailable while undergoing upgrades and 86 were inoperable because of spare parts shortages. That meant Germany only had 95 Leopard 2 tanks that were combat ready. That’s 39 percent of the 244 Leopard 2s currently available to the army.

https://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htarm/20171203.aspx

[irisblue]

20. American troops in Germany guarantees missle response if Russian troops enter Germany

Colin Powell, what ever you think of him must have thrown something on hearing this.

While most armoured divisions are gone, the US medical bases are hugely impt for the MiddleEast ongoing war.

The trumpers are floating an idra to please trumps boss, Putin

[Yupster]

67. I bet that's not very reassuring to the Poles

Don't worry Poland. After the Russians trample you, we'll hit them with missiles as soon as they enter Germany.

Our troops should be redeployed into Poland and the Baltic States where there is a realistic threat. Not in Germany where there is no threat.

[irisblue]

69. Poland, my parents ancestral home, is a flat 1000 miles. Tanks move fast, not as fast as satellite

You already know that any missles in Europe affect & effect the whole continent. There likely won't be any uninvolved populations.

Troops in place for near on to 70yrs, still a tripwire. And the current Polish administration know that
:: northern Poland not the Carpathian Mts.::
But I am glad you posted this, cuz it's true.

[kairos12]

22. A pre-Putin gift of withdrawal from Europe. I was stationed in Germany for 7 years and

I can tell you many German folks will be scared shitless to see us leave.

[Iliyah]

26. Than I guess it's over

[Napolion]

27. Putin asked Trump to do this

and the puppet complied.

[SunSeeker]

29. Our nearby state of the art medical bases in Germany lowered Iraq/Afghanistan casualties.

If we lose these, we lose soldiers.

This is craven idiocy.

[FailureToCommunicate]

30. "Good...GOOD!"

[saidsimplesimon]

32. Putin will be pleased.

The current occupier of our WH is a petty, spiteful bully who wants to punish Angela Merkel for failing to kiss his ample ass. Of course, she was much more diplomatic.

[AlexSFCA]

33. trump want out of nato, plain and simple

does he have the power to do so on his own w/o congress?

Putin is helping him to withdraw from WTO by filing a case against the US so trump has an excuse to withdraw.

[LastLiberal in PalmSprings]

35. If I lived in South Korea right now, I'd be very nervous.

Trump has already cited costs as the principle reason he agreed to stop participating in "war games" with South Korea, Japan and the U.S. The same line of thinking could lead him to the conclusion it's too expensive to keep our troops in South Korea, and besides, isn't he now best buddies with Kim Yung Un?

[roamer65]

37. Say hello to the Franco-German alliance.

EU army, navy and air force.

The Holy Roman Empire revived.

[orangecrush]

38. Traitor Trump

Helping Putin blatantly

[Achilleaze]

39. Wow, republican Draft-dodger-in-Chief is giving the kremlin everything

freaking republican traitors, pissing on our friends, blowing our enemies

[Cosmocat]

40. It's also important to

Has Bill Maher noted last night, the right authoritarian movement in Germany is reached almost 1/3 of the population now. This b******* isn't Just Happening Here. Removing our presents from Germany would only further make them vulnerable by emboldening those elements.

[watoos]

41. Gawd, Maher's show last night

was one scary episode. My belief that good always triumphs over evil was badly shaken.

[Cosmocat]

47. I have told everyone

Since the day he was elected, the only way he leaves the whitehouse will resemble the final scene of Scarface.

[appalachiablue]

71. Also Poland, some in Italy; Hungary, Turkey, more. Authoritarian elements rising.

[Maxheader]

42. Doubt tRump will pull any troops out..

Its too lucrative for the weapons makers..If anything it will
ask Merkel to pay a larger share for the "security".

[heaven05]

43. trump

will never get his head out of his ass. He was born with it there. Sick as the individuals killing people and children with assault rifle. Bolton, bannon, jones, gorka are still advising this fool. I have no doubts.

http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/presidential-campaign/289047-exploring-russian-ties-to-the-men-lurking-behind

[KG]

44. the russian hordes are never coming thru the Fulda Gap.

time to leave.

[LudwigPastorius]

51. Maybe not, but....

they might just come for the rest of Ukraine, Belarus, Lithuania, etc. if Putin can't make them cleave to Mother Russia with his current shit-stirring.

[Yupster]

68. So if we want to stop Putin, let's put our troops there then

Let Ukraine join NATO. Defend Poland and the Baltic States.

Move our troops to Poland and the Baltic States. How do our troops deter Putin by being in Germany? Putin isn't going to attack Germany.

[lark]

46. This is all about Russia.

drumpf wants us out of there so we can't easily help when he's invading other NATO or NATO aligned countries and of course drumpf always obeys his master. He's knows Putin put him in office and could take him down in 1 second by releasing audio and maybe even videotapes of of him committing treason, election financing crimes, conspiring with a hostile foreign power to subvert America, money laundering, obstruction of justice and maybe even treason.

[LudwigPastorius]

49. Just roll out that welcome mat for Pooty, right Trump?

The reputed leader of this country is a Russian stooge.

[NickB79]

50. In other news, shaking walls and a loud, long moaning sound were reported in Moscow today

First thought to be a small earthquake, sources now report that is has been identified as President Putin having the largest orgasm of his life.

[roscoeroscoe]

53. Defense is like space policy

While we may support some cuts to defense, we wouldn't trust Trump to do it right.

He wouldn't gradually draw down in a planned manner, it would be a grand FU to NATO.

[nature-lover]

54. Trump thinks of this as a negotiating point with the members of NATO.

He is throwing his weight around (sorry for that visual) to make him look like he is an effective leader. When he successfully ticks them off, he can run to Putin with a win for himself. He doesn't care about the country or the world. It is all about what business deals will be available to him and his family after his exit. His goal is a self serving business strategy for the future, not a benevolent governing one.

[TomVilmer]

55. Yes. please: Yankee troops go home!

- on the other hand, send something helpful next time...

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

63. Doing Putin's bidding

[Strelnikov_]

64. Red Don n/t

[inwiththenew]

70. Since US/Russia developed deliverable nukes in large quantities this has all been window dressing

Let's face it, it was/is nukes that have prevented another total war between world powers not US troops in Europe. Nuclear weapons make the cost of waging another war like that prohibitively high. This will make it easier for the next President to cut the budget if we don't have a large fixed cost like operating a huge base in Germany.