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Mon Jan 1, 2018, 01:24 PM

Bernie Sanders resolves to 'intensify the struggle against Trumpism' in 2018

Source: The Hill




BY BRETT SAMUELS - 01/01/18 11:55 AM EST

Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) late Sunday shared his New Year’s resolution: to “intensify the struggle against Trumpism.”

“In 2018, we will not only intensify the struggle against Trumpism, we will increase our efforts to spread the progressive vision in every corner of the land,” Sanders tweeted.




Sanders has been a frequent and vocal critic of President Trump, even calling on the president to consider resigning because of sexual misconduct allegations. Sanders has also advocated for progressive policies, including universal health care, free tuition at public universities and colleges and campaign finance reform.

Sanders, who lost the 2016 Democratic presidential nomination to Hillary Clinton, is considered among the leading candidates to run for the Democratic nomination in 2020.

Read more: http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/366978-bernie-sanders-resolves-to-intensify-the-struggle-against-trumpism-in-2018

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Reply Bernie Sanders resolves to 'intensify the struggle against Trumpism' in 2018 (Original post)
DonViejo Jan 2018 OP
George II Jan 2018 #1
Dopers_Greed Jan 2018 #2
heaven05 Jan 2018 #10
Kahuna7 Jan 2018 #179
KPN Jan 2018 #5
George II Jan 2018 #8
LiberalLovinLug Jan 2018 #13
George II Jan 2018 #14
LiberalLovinLug Jan 2018 #18
George II Jan 2018 #19
LiberalLovinLug Jan 2018 #25
George II Jan 2018 #30
LiberalLovinLug Jan 2018 #33
Cary Jan 2018 #82
George II Jan 2018 #85
LiberalLovinLug Jan 2018 #125
ehrnst Jan 2018 #139
Cary Jan 2018 #80
heaven05 Jan 2018 #9
questionseverything Jan 2018 #37
Cary Jan 2018 #84
questionseverything Jan 2018 #131
heaven05 Jan 2018 #94
questionseverything Jan 2018 #132
heaven05 Jan 2018 #148
questionseverything Jan 2018 #151
heaven05 Jan 2018 #152
lunamagica Jan 2018 #11
Me. Jan 2018 #39
lunamagica Jan 2018 #55
Fresh_Start Jan 2018 #96
The Wielding Truth Jan 2018 #153
shenmue Jan 2018 #175
The Wielding Truth Jan 2018 #176
David__77 Jan 2018 #3
InAbLuEsTaTe Jan 2018 #26
Weed Man Jan 2018 #4
George II Jan 2018 #15
InAbLuEsTaTe Jan 2018 #34
pangaia Jan 2018 #53
George II Jan 2018 #56
pangaia Jan 2018 #58
George II Jan 2018 #75
Eliot Rosewater Jan 2018 #126
sheshe2 Jan 2018 #81
SunSeeker Jan 2018 #86
KPN Jan 2018 #88
SunSeeker Jan 2018 #100
KPN Jan 2018 #104
SunSeeker Jan 2018 #113
KPN Jan 2018 #121
SunSeeker Jan 2018 #135
KPN Jan 2018 #155
SunSeeker Jan 2018 #160
KPN Jan 2018 #163
SunSeeker Jan 2018 #164
KPN Jan 2018 #165
George II Jan 2018 #112
KPN Jan 2018 #157
George II Jan 2018 #158
sheshe2 Jan 2018 #98
Cha Jan 2018 #91
still_one Jan 2018 #92
Cha Jan 2018 #93
disillusioned73 Jan 2018 #95
sheshe2 Jan 2018 #99
SunSeeker Jan 2018 #101
ehrnst Jan 2018 #134
Gothmog Jan 2018 #136
mcar Jan 2018 #116
sheshe2 Jan 2018 #117
ehrnst Jan 2018 #128
ehrnst Jan 2018 #129
KPN Jan 2018 #6
InAbLuEsTaTe Jan 2018 #28
katmondoo Jan 2018 #7
heaven05 Jan 2018 #12
pangaia Jan 2018 #54
George II Jan 2018 #61
LiberalLovinLug Jan 2018 #16
DavidDvorkin Jan 2018 #17
LiberalLovinLug Jan 2018 #22
politicaljunkie41910 Jan 2018 #24
LiberalLovinLug Jan 2018 #29
politicaljunkie41910 Jan 2018 #47
LiberalLovinLug Jan 2018 #59
politicaljunkie41910 Jan 2018 #63
heaven05 Jan 2018 #119
SunSeeker Jan 2018 #90
sheshe2 Jan 2018 #38
LiberalLovinLug Jan 2018 #41
sheshe2 Jan 2018 #44
LiberalLovinLug Jan 2018 #46
sheshe2 Jan 2018 #48
LiberalLovinLug Jan 2018 #60
sheshe2 Jan 2018 #64
LiberalLovinLug Jan 2018 #124
ehrnst Jan 2018 #133
DavidDvorkin Jan 2018 #51
George II Jan 2018 #78
LiberalLovinLug Jan 2018 #142
George II Jan 2018 #146
LiberalLovinLug Jan 2018 #154
George II Jan 2018 #156
LiberalLovinLug Jan 2018 #171
George II Jan 2018 #77
Gothmog Jan 2018 #138
ehrnst Jan 2018 #169
LiberalLovinLug Jan 2018 #170
ehrnst Jan 2018 #172
LiberalLovinLug Jan 2018 #173
ehrnst Jan 2018 #174
LiberalLovinLug Jan 2018 #177
ehrnst Jan 2018 #178
politicaljunkie41910 Jan 2018 #23
InAbLuEsTaTe Jan 2018 #31
pangaia Jan 2018 #57
George II Jan 2018 #79
questionseverything Jan 2018 #36
marble falls Jan 2018 #70
politicaljunkie41910 Jan 2018 #73
Skittles Jan 2018 #159
JHan Jan 2018 #167
KPN Jan 2018 #21
LiberalLovinLug Jan 2018 #35
sheshe2 Jan 2018 #50
KPN Jan 2018 #66
sheshe2 Jan 2018 #69
KPN Jan 2018 #87
SunSeeker Jan 2018 #102
KPN Jan 2018 #105
SunSeeker Jan 2018 #109
KPN Jan 2018 #111
SunSeeker Jan 2018 #114
KPN Jan 2018 #123
Me. Jan 2018 #40
LiberalLovinLug Jan 2018 #42
Me. Jan 2018 #49
LiberalLovinLug Jan 2018 #62
Me. Jan 2018 #67
lunamagica Jan 2018 #118
LiberalLovinLug Jan 2018 #122
Me. Jan 2018 #143
lunamagica Jan 2018 #147
Me. Jan 2018 #149
Skittles Jan 2018 #166
lunamagica Jan 2018 #145
ehrnst Jan 2018 #140
Me. Jan 2018 #144
left-of-center2012 Jan 2018 #20
InAbLuEsTaTe Jan 2018 #32
SunSeeker Jan 2018 #115
ehrnst Jan 2018 #137
Blue_Tires Jan 2018 #27
Aristus Jan 2018 #43
TomCADem Jan 2018 #45
David__77 Jan 2018 #65
TomCADem Jan 2018 #71
David__77 Jan 2018 #74
TomCADem Jan 2018 #83
lapucelle Jan 2018 #141
lapucelle Jan 2018 #127
pangaia Jan 2018 #52
Owl Jan 2018 #68
lapucelle Jan 2018 #72
sheshe2 Jan 2018 #76
SunSeeker Jan 2018 #89
dembotoz Jan 2018 #97
SunSeeker Jan 2018 #103
KPN Jan 2018 #107
SunSeeker Jan 2018 #108
KPN Jan 2018 #110
KPN Jan 2018 #106
David__77 Jan 2018 #150
ehrnst Jan 2018 #168
Tarc Jan 2018 #120
Raster Jan 2018 #130
democrank Jan 2018 #161
YOHABLO Jan 2018 #162
murielm99 Jan 2018 #180

Response to DonViejo (Original post)

Mon Jan 1, 2018, 01:39 PM

1. How does he plan on doing so?

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Response to George II (Reply #1)

Mon Jan 1, 2018, 02:06 PM

2. Hopefully by not criticizing Democrats more than Trump

That was not a winning strategy in 2016-2017.

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Response to Dopers_Greed (Reply #2)

Mon Jan 1, 2018, 04:16 PM

10. got that right

and being firm in not wanting to claim himself a Democrat, over and over again. FACT!!!!!!!!!!

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Response to Dopers_Greed (Reply #2)

Sun Jan 7, 2018, 06:50 PM

179. +1 nt

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Response to George II (Reply #1)

Mon Jan 1, 2018, 03:21 PM

5. How would you? What can you do to

intensify your fight against Trumpism? I know what I can do. Maybe Bernie does too.

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Response to KPN (Reply #5)

Mon Jan 1, 2018, 03:31 PM

8. It's not my resolution.

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Response to George II (Reply #8)

Mon Jan 1, 2018, 04:30 PM

13. Maybe you should reconsider

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Response to LiberalLovinLug (Reply #13)

Mon Jan 1, 2018, 04:37 PM

14. Why? Shouldn't our struggle against trumpism have reached the most intense possible....

....already?

Why wait almost a year after he took office?

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Response to George II (Reply #14)

Mon Jan 1, 2018, 04:52 PM

18. So you're spent eh?

Well move over then, chill out. We understand.


BTW you must have heard coaches on sports teams tell their troops at half time that they simply MUST dig deeper, resolve to be even more intense in the second half? Its a rallying cry. As a player listening to that would you think to yourself, "Gee coach, I don't understand....I was giving it my all in the first half already, what on earth do you mean?" I don't know why I have to even explain this to you.

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Response to LiberalLovinLug (Reply #18)

Mon Jan 1, 2018, 04:58 PM

19. Did I say I stopped? Rather presumptuous of you. So, when will YOU "dig deeper"?

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Response to George II (Reply #19)

Mon Jan 1, 2018, 05:26 PM

25. Starting today.

Look at it like its a rallying cry. Like "we have to give it 110%!" Like "we have to dig even deeper". Is that so difficult to hear?

You take it like its some kind of insult. You're that player I guess that thinks to himself, "Sorry coach can't give anymore"

This rallying cry is not meant in the backwards looking way you are interpreting it, ie..."you were not intense enough in 2017 dammit!". It is meant as a way to steel ourselves up for what will be an epic battle in 2018. Would you have preferred he say" Carry on then as per usual"? But I think you know all that, but enjoy being willfully confused on the intent so you can score another tiny stab at one of our most important allies. Sure, you may not need no stinkin pep talk to get yourself up for the fight, but some of us like to hear it once in awhile from our leaders. So if you don't have anything nice to say.......why keep poking the donkey?

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Response to LiberalLovinLug (Reply #25)

Mon Jan 1, 2018, 05:44 PM

30. Funny you're the one who is taking shots and you talk about not having anything nice to say?

Happy New Year.

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Response to George II (Reply #30)

Mon Jan 1, 2018, 05:48 PM

33. Responding, defending against someone else taking shots at someone I respect greatly

Is not in essence "taking shots". At least thats how I see it.

HNY George

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Response to George II (Reply #30)

Tue Jan 2, 2018, 12:16 AM

82. Why do they do this George?

How do they not see the obviousness of their ploy?

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Response to Cary (Reply #82)

Tue Jan 2, 2018, 12:19 AM

85. I don't know, Cary. Presumably we're all in this together, but for some maybe not.

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Response to George II (Reply #85)

Tue Jan 2, 2018, 03:16 PM

125. Wow

you have the gall to say that?

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Response to LiberalLovinLug (Reply #125)

Tue Jan 2, 2018, 03:49 PM

139. Why does that take "gall?"

It's observation.

Some are not in it with the Democrats.

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Response to LiberalLovinLug (Reply #18)

Tue Jan 2, 2018, 12:14 AM

80. It's all about George.

Good thinking.

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Response to George II (Reply #1)

Mon Jan 1, 2018, 04:15 PM

9. Yeah, right...HOW BS????

I agree George...how, when we all damn well know what happened......

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Response to heaven05 (Reply #9)

Mon Jan 1, 2018, 06:06 PM

37. hmmm if "you" all know what happened maybe you should inform meuller

because what it looks like happened is trump conspired with putin to affect a presidential election

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Response to questionseverything (Reply #37)

Tue Jan 2, 2018, 12:19 AM

84. You assume that we haven't

I have Mueller right here. He's laughing at you.

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Response to Cary (Reply #84)

Tue Jan 2, 2018, 03:35 PM

131. since mueller is a repub...i believe u

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Response to questionseverything (Reply #37)

Tue Jan 2, 2018, 09:50 AM

94. No arguement from me

yet......waaaa!!!! waaaa!!!! waaaaaa! from certain quarters and factions from within the LARGE tent housing loyal Democrats not afraid and definitely not whining about the past and not so cynical as to not be able to claim the Democratic Party as their chosen Party. And looking forward to defeating the monstrously fascist government we all have to contend with now with a social inclusiveness and equality FOR ALL as a plank of their particular promises....minor leaders of very minor factions within our Party are not a real concern to me no matter how loud they are or how many times their leaders may pop up on MSM.

GOTV is the priority without the defeatist factionalism of minor leaders from within our Party who I feel have to be marginalized also, for assurance of our victory 2018-2020. I'll leave it up to people more competent than me to deal with outside interference in our electoral system. That is what I know and desire!!!

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Response to heaven05 (Reply #94)

Tue Jan 2, 2018, 03:39 PM

132. marginalizing "minor leaders" is how we lost last time around

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Response to questionseverything (Reply #132)

Tue Jan 2, 2018, 04:27 PM

148. no, it isn't

whiny people NOT VOTING were partly responsible.... Jill STEIN WASN'T not sitting a a table with the buddy of the POtuS at some function in russia, more votes lost. I wish the marginalization of minor leaders of minor factions would have worked, it didn't, we lost. Not in the popular vote mind you, we lost because of voter suppression, whiny people not voting and more than likely outside interference in our electoral system. Please don't try to use lies on me to make your point. I KNOW what happened and it wasn't any la la land "wrong candidate" scenario. We had the best, most qualified candidate at the time, BAR NONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.

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Response to heaven05 (Reply #148)

Tue Jan 2, 2018, 04:39 PM

151. we lost 3 states by 1 %

including popular ideas from minor candidates could easily made the difference, or at least not ridiculing them might of helped

I don't understand trying to drive them off for next time either

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Response to questionseverything (Reply #151)

Tue Jan 2, 2018, 04:45 PM

152. !!!!

1%= whiny people, not voting, voter suppression by the fascists AND probable interference by an outside power to make sure the slug that is POtuS now could do what he's doing at this very moment. I am through with this....I KNOW WHAT HAPPENED this last election. Good day

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Response to George II (Reply #1)

Mon Jan 1, 2018, 04:17 PM

11. By giving his stump speeech and appearing on TV shows

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Response to lunamagica (Reply #11)

Mon Jan 1, 2018, 06:34 PM

39. I'll Wait To See What Legislation He Proposes

That will be the true test. Yes?

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Response to Me. (Reply #39)

Mon Jan 1, 2018, 07:57 PM

55. It is the only test. The rest is showmanship

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Response to lunamagica (Reply #55)

Tue Jan 2, 2018, 10:46 AM

96. legislation that is proposed with zero chance of being passed is also showmanship

legislation where the congressman has negotiation support and likely passage is the true measure

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Response to George II (Reply #1)

Tue Jan 2, 2018, 05:07 PM

153. By inspiring us all to intensify and double down on stopping the regressive actions of Trumpsters!

I wish every Senator and Democrat were this focused.

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Response to The Wielding Truth (Reply #153)

Fri Jan 5, 2018, 08:51 AM

175. We are. He's not a Democrat.

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Response to shenmue (Reply #175)

Fri Jan 5, 2018, 04:09 PM

176. I guess I'm not a Democrat either, cause he is for every thing I am for.

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Response to DonViejo (Original post)

Mon Jan 1, 2018, 02:16 PM

3. Thats a good resolution!

I like it.

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Response to David__77 (Reply #3)

Mon Jan 1, 2018, 05:42 PM

26. Me too! We should all resolve ourselves to dig a little deeper...

and resist the Traitor-in-Chief's fascist policies to the fullest extent possible.

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Response to DonViejo (Original post)

Mon Jan 1, 2018, 03:16 PM

4. I agree with Bernie. It is time to fight against Trumpism

 

and make Trump a one-termer along with the rest of his cronies for 2018.

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Response to Weed Man (Reply #4)

Mon Jan 1, 2018, 04:38 PM

15. The time was 11 months ago.

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Response to George II (Reply #15)

Mon Jan 1, 2018, 05:48 PM

34. As long as the Traitor-in-Chief is in office, the time is NOW!!

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Response to George II (Reply #15)

Mon Jan 1, 2018, 07:54 PM

53. Oh, I see. SO, the fight is over.

Why am I even bothering to reply.

bests me..

I'm just eating some squid I cooked..

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Response to pangaia (Reply #53)

Mon Jan 1, 2018, 07:59 PM

56. Who said the fight is over? The time to START the fight was 11 months ago, we'd be 11 months....

....further down the road to victory.

Easy for some who have done little since January 20, 2017 to say "let's start now".

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Response to George II (Reply #56)

Mon Jan 1, 2018, 08:02 PM

58. OK..


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Response to pangaia (Reply #58)

Mon Jan 1, 2018, 11:56 PM

75. God Bless you.

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Response to George II (Reply #15)

Tue Jan 2, 2018, 03:19 PM

126. Oops, I just said something that unconditionally supports the D party

best I delete it, just to be safe.

How is life?

I would LOVE to discuss this but nope, no fucking way. cant

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Response to Weed Man (Reply #4)

Tue Jan 2, 2018, 12:14 AM

81. Sorry Weed Man.

We already did. We women did it from day one.

?itok=ItXVJoVp

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #81)

Tue Jan 2, 2018, 01:58 AM

86. Exactly. I was there with 750,000 others in dowtown L.A. on January 21, 2017.

I've had the pedal to the metal all year.

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #86)

Tue Jan 2, 2018, 03:22 AM

88. We were all there too ....

This is a silly accusation (I.e., should have started 11 months ago).

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Response to KPN (Reply #88)

Tue Jan 2, 2018, 12:24 PM

100. No, not everyone was there.

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #100)

Tue Jan 2, 2018, 01:02 PM

104. Ridiculous. So you seem to think the TPP was a good thing or ...

like McConnell and his gang, we should object to, obstruct everything that Trump does just because he's doing it, i.e., tit-for-tat, regardless of whether it's good policy or not.

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Response to KPN (Reply #104)

Tue Jan 2, 2018, 01:31 PM

113. No, saying you'll work with Trump, while millions are in the streets, is counterproductive.

But I'm glad to see Bernie has given up on that "I'll work with Trump" rhetoric, since all it did was legitimize Trump, and demoralize folks like me who were (and are) fighting Trump with every fiber of our being.

There is a big difference between obstructing everything like the Republicans were doing under Obama, and not saying stuff that legitimizes Trump. Bernie didn't have to take to a podium to say he would be "delighted to work with Trump" on an issue while millions were in the street protesting Trump. If Bernie supports Trump's trade policies, he could just vote for them. Democrats have voted with Trump on many issues. They are not "obstructing everything." That is right wing propaganda.

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #113)

Tue Jan 2, 2018, 03:00 PM

121. You are making stuff up when you say Bernie

legitimized Trump. As well as saying Bernie was telling the press he would work with Trump while the Womens' March was going on. That's outright false.

You folks ought to just stop with the rancor re: Bernie. It has no useful purpose other than to get push back and cause division.

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Response to KPN (Reply #121)

Tue Jan 2, 2018, 03:44 PM

135. He said it on Monday, 1/23/17, the main Women's March was on 1/21/17, but marchers were still out.

And it was certainly the same time period. Regardless of the timing, why would ANYONE say they are "delighted" to work with Trump? How does that not legitimize him?

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #135)

Tue Jan 2, 2018, 06:57 PM

155. You are showing your strong bias

against Mr. Sanders with your argument. He said what any reasonable, effective, prudent, responsible, progressive Congress-person or Senator should say about any other elected federal official, which in straight-forward undeniable language in essence was: I'd be delighted to work with him IF his proposal genuinely has the best interest of the working class in mind, if his goals match progressive goals. There's no legitimization of Trump himself overall or in general in that statement whatsoever.

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Response to KPN (Reply #155)

Tue Jan 2, 2018, 09:08 PM

160. I am not aware of any other "reasonable...progressive Congress-person or Senator" who said that.

Who, besides Bernie Sanders, said they would be "delighted" to work with Trump on anything?

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #160)

Wed Jan 3, 2018, 03:06 AM

163. Nancy Pelosi has said the same thing

in her own words. Chuck Schumer as well.

You are hanging your argument now on the use of one word that often is used as an ironic expression. How do you know how he meant his use of it?

How about just quit all the rancor about Bernie all the time. When people post negative comments about him, especially in response to an article like this one, what else would you expect from his supporters?

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Response to KPN (Reply #163)

Wed Jan 3, 2018, 03:18 AM

164. No, she didn't. Neither did Schumer.

Yes, it's one word, but it's quite a word. And his timing was really demoralizing to the marchers. Here we are hitting the streets, millions of us, protesting the illegitimate, racist, sexist abomination that now sat in the White House, and then Sanders says he'd be "delighted to work with him."

Maybe if you could acknowledge it was a mistake on his part, there would be less "rancor."

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #164)

Wed Jan 3, 2018, 03:29 AM

165. Okay, I'll acknowledge it. Why not ...

everyone makes mistakes, real or perceived.

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #100)

Tue Jan 2, 2018, 01:18 PM

112. Hmm. Excellent point, thanks. As some here have already said (me included)...

...the time to start fighting trumpism was January 20, 2017.

Many of us DID start on January 21, 2017, we didn't wait almost a whole year to declare that we would "intensify" our "struggle", many have been fighting against trump as intensely as we could since that very first day.

NONE of us said, about ANY issue or policy, "If President Trump is serious about a new policy to help American workers then I would be delighted to work with him.” (from your linked article)

No Democrat should be "delighted" to work with this guy.

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Response to George II (Reply #112)

Tue Jan 2, 2018, 07:04 PM

157. Hmmm ... your bias is clear. Schumer

and Pelosi have both said similar things and then followed that up by actually meeting with to "work" with him.

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Response to KPN (Reply #157)

Tue Jan 2, 2018, 07:08 PM

158. Suit yourself. Thanks for critiquing my post. Did you mean to say "Pelosi"?

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #86)

Tue Jan 2, 2018, 11:25 AM

98. Yours in LA was huge, SunSeeker!

We had 175K packed into the Boston Common that day and I will be back for 2018. We started then and we have continued through 2017. We shall never stop.

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #81)

Tue Jan 2, 2018, 04:41 AM

91. Ah yes, the Women's March.. where Ashley cuts off Michael Moore..






Thanks, she!

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Response to Cha (Reply #91)

Tue Jan 2, 2018, 05:48 AM

92. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

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Response to still_one (Reply #92)

Tue Jan 2, 2018, 05:56 AM

93. ...

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Response to Cha (Reply #91)

Tue Jan 2, 2018, 10:19 AM

95. Never saw that..

interesting..

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Response to Cha (Reply #91)

Tue Jan 2, 2018, 11:45 AM

99. Dayum.

Ashley Judd was awesome there.

Thanks for the reminder, Cha!

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Response to Cha (Reply #91)

Tue Jan 2, 2018, 12:36 PM

101. That rocked.

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Response to Cha (Reply #91)

Tue Jan 2, 2018, 03:43 PM

134. +1000 (nt)

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Response to Cha (Reply #91)

Tue Jan 2, 2018, 03:46 PM

136. Yeah for Ashley Judd

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #81)

Tue Jan 2, 2018, 02:10 PM

116. This!

I was there in DC. One of the greatest experiences of my life.

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Response to mcar (Reply #116)

Tue Jan 2, 2018, 02:13 PM

117. We were pretty cool in Boston as well.

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #81)

Tue Jan 2, 2018, 03:32 PM

128. Damn straight. (nt)

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Response to Weed Man (Reply #4)

Tue Jan 2, 2018, 03:33 PM

129. Well, a lot of us understood that a while ago. (nt)

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Response to DonViejo (Original post)

Mon Jan 1, 2018, 03:22 PM

6. Yay Bernie!

If one's going to make a New Year's resolution, can't think of a better one.

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Response to KPN (Reply #6)

Mon Jan 1, 2018, 05:43 PM

28. Yes, good for Bernie!!

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Response to DonViejo (Original post)

Mon Jan 1, 2018, 03:22 PM

7. OK do it, don't wait too long to start.

Lots of people will be behind you.

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Response to katmondoo (Reply #7)

Mon Jan 1, 2018, 04:18 PM

12. Some yeah

but not a lot will believe it.......nor find it really helpful.

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Response to katmondoo (Reply #7)

Mon Jan 1, 2018, 07:54 PM

54. Start? Start?

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Response to katmondoo (Reply #7)

Mon Jan 1, 2018, 08:23 PM

61. Like January 2017?

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Response to DonViejo (Original post)

Mon Jan 1, 2018, 04:38 PM

16. So sick of the predictable divisive anti-Sanders posts in any thread like this

If you are STILL so butthurt that Sanders made it too uncomfortable for your candidate during the primaries, now over a year and a half gone, (even though she still won!) that you cannot say one good thing about this tireless old warhorse fighting the good fight alongside other good Democrats, then don't say anything at all.

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Response to LiberalLovinLug (Reply #16)

Mon Jan 1, 2018, 04:39 PM

17. So sick of Sanders' vapid bluster.

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Response to DavidDvorkin (Reply #17)

Mon Jan 1, 2018, 05:05 PM

22. Please quote something he has spoken up for, or against, as "vapid bluster"

Or bills he has co-sponsored with other Dems.

Just like saying Obama was born in Kenya, or that Hillary was guilty of murder, doesn't make it so either

And just saying Sanders, who last time I checked was respected as the most popular politician in America, has nothing to contribute to the discourse, doesn't make it so.


I could alert you on this post. But I don't alert for political reasons. You are besmirching a Democrat in all but name. As posted by Skinner last year:

https://www.democraticunderground.com/125912901#post1


"For all intents and purposes, Bernie Sanders is a Democrat"

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Response to LiberalLovinLug (Reply #22)

Mon Jan 1, 2018, 05:13 PM

24. Names are important. They matter. You're either ALL IN or you're not.

When you join an organization, you have a vested interest in it's success. You should be ALL IN. If you're not ALL IN it's easy to sit on the sidelines and throw stones at those of us who are ALL IN if you disagree, or if something doesn't work out, and that's what pisses many of us off about the whole Independent thing. Yes there are people who choose to remain Independent and who never join a party. I get that. But don't try and come in and take over someone else's party if you're unwilling to put your name to it, OWN IT, and be ALL IN.

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Response to politicaljunkie41910 (Reply #24)

Mon Jan 1, 2018, 05:44 PM

29. I get it

In a perfect world Sanders would be a lifelong Democrat.

But the way I look at it is that we work with what we have. You can't make lemon juice from an apple. But apple juice is really good for you as well. Why not take advantage of it, even though you'd have preferred lemonade?

I'm an atheist / agnostic but I'll phrase a Bible verse: "by their works ye shall know them". Surely looking back at Sanders record in his political battles and propositions for over 30 years now, is enough to convince you that he's on our side....at least on the issues. And are not the issues more important that a party letter? I know it would be preferable to see Sanders rail on TV with a D on the screen next to his name, but its not going to happen. So the question is...Is a letter in front of a rep, or lack of one, reason enough to write off his long history of working with Democrats, his history on working in the Senate for equal rights, economic justice etc?

Instead we should look at the silver lining. If we can't convince Sanders to come on over officially, then we can use his I for our purposes. Whether we are comfortable with the notion or not, fact is, BECAUSE he retains the I, he attracts that elusive Independent vote. Also, he is living proof of Democrats big tent philosophy. That we are more tolerant of listening to all viewpoints. We should count our blessings that we have this advantage. What if he were a very popular,persuasive, right wing leaning independent that worked with the Teapublicans?

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Response to LiberalLovinLug (Reply #29)

Mon Jan 1, 2018, 06:58 PM

47. You presume that as Democrats we all agreed on the same issues during the campaign

and you would be wrong. There were lots of Democrats on this forum that did not agree with his agenda which, BTW he did not consult with anyone who is ALL IN in the Party before he launched his agenda. And the reason everyone didn't agree with his agenda is because, members of the Democratic Party aren't all monogamous and those who are in the party know that. We use to have lots of Democratic Party Members in Red States and now we have hardly none, because the GOP paints us all with the broad brush of "socialists" and those Dems who were in Red States, they're mostly all gone now. They're doing the same thing now with Claire McCaskall who could very well lose her seat. The GOP and their rich donors have done a very good job of painting the Democratic Party as the party who wants to take your hard earned money and give it to lazy people who refuse to work. This was not the time for our Party to take on such a bold agenda, and he did it without consulting anyone in the party and to grab the young vote.

Well of course he would get the young vote because who wouldn't want free college and free medical care. But this was a divisive issue at a time when our party couldn't afford to be divided, even under the best of circumstances with so much at stake. But he did and he lost the Primary. But that wasn't enough after a very heated and combatant primary where a lot of bad blood had been shed. He continued on saying he was taking his fight all the way to the Convention, which he did; a convention that I'm sure myself and many other Party Members had been asked to contribute to. He kept and used his funds he raised for himself, even refusing to share his donation list with the Party even after the Convention. He said he was keeping his donor list private. And while at the Convention he tried to take over everything; and even after he got 99% of what he wanted, he and his cadre sat there at the Convention, and sulked and stewed. It was apparent for all to see that we were a divided party, and Trump and the Russians used that to further their plan of action to divide the Democratic Party further. That's what people do when they don't join the Party. If things don't go their way, they pout. They keep what's theirs to themselves. Hillary shared her donations with the whole Party and other down ballot candidates. Even when he professed to be on board after all the drama at the Convention, you still didn't know that you could count on him or his followers vote, because he said that wasn't his responsibility. That Hillary had to 'earn' their vote, as if she had time to win them over one at a time because everybody even on Team Sanders had a different bone to pick. And the rest is history. Trump is in the White House by the slimmest of margins in three states because we couldn't get our act together.

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Response to politicaljunkie41910 (Reply #47)

Mon Jan 1, 2018, 08:07 PM

59. So what issue on his agenda did you disagree with? you didn't say.

I thought it was more about that he was outshining Hillary by offering to do the same types of things, minimum wage increase, universal medical, etc.. but just that he was asking for too much too soon. Hillary basically said as much in her book.

But from what I saw, Bernie did not have any negatives for asking for 'the moon'. He was popular BECAUSE he galvanized all those that have thought for years that Democrats should not be afraid to be Democrats, and push harder for progressive changes. Which admittedly is ironic coming from an avowed Independent. He was an alternative to the Clinton era Third Way approach to out-Republican Republicans, at least on economic matters. That strategy that, since Bill Clinton left office, and the party could no longer be buttressed by Bill's personal populism, has lost seats all across the country using this Third Way, corporate leaning prioritizing.

and yes he 'took his fight all the way to the convention", as was his right. At his peak before the California primary put him out of contention, he was at 48% support of Democrats, don't you think with that number he had a right, even an obligation, to represent his supporters and his and their views on the future direction? Hillary's more progressive platform that included late additions reflecting Sanders supporters concerns never would have happened if he had conceded earlier. To many of us, that was important, especially if all went as planned and she became POTUS.

And were there some sulkers at that convention? Of course. You don't think there'd be Hillary supporters sulking if Bernie had somehow, in spite of the DNC's active bias, and the massive pre-primary Super Delegate vote commitment, had somehow pulled it off? It was a crippling blow to many who saw Sanders as a rare opportunity, in the time of anti-establishment feelings, to get into office someone whom we trusted to really push the country forward. I think you should give them a bit of slack, especially after the DNC shenanigans was revealed. Personally it seems like Sanders supporters, at least the vast majority, relinquished and capitualated to the greater will of the party and swallowed their hopes and accepted the situation and voted Hillary, much more than Hillary supporters in the primary were of respecting Sanders and his supporters in hindsight.

But Bernie himself conceded and rallied for her, even though he, and many others, thought he would be the better choice, at that time in history, to beat Trump. And by all indications he was right. I did not see him "pout" about it. Trump pouted about Sanders much more.

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Response to LiberalLovinLug (Reply #59)

Mon Jan 1, 2018, 08:43 PM

63. Sorry if I didn't make it clear. I had to retype most of it because I accidently touched the wrong

key and lost 3/4 of it while correcting a misspelling. I personally did not agree with the free college since I knew that the GOP would not have gone along with it. I didn't believe that college education was a right at the time and I laid out my case during the campaign. You don't come in this world any poorer than I did and my eight siblings and my siblings and I found ways to get through college without the taxpayers picking up the bill for it as I've discussed my upbringing in past threads several times. My husband and I have 3 college educated kids ourselves, and we all found a way to make college more affordable.

I have known many kids who left college with a lot of student loan debt, and I even have some relatives who were in that predicament, but I didn't want that for my kids. I even discussed some of the ways we got through college only have some people on this forum criticize me and members of my family. When my kids were in college, I saw how many of their friends had cars, and credit cards, and the latest fashions, went to all the latest movies first run, and even went on vacations. I made sure my kids had skin in the game so that they could appreciate hard work and the value of an education; not go to school and waste their time and my husband's and my money.

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Response to LiberalLovinLug (Reply #59)

Tue Jan 2, 2018, 02:54 PM

119. all inclusive social and civil EQUALITY

for all in this society was ignored completely. That was unconscionable. And don't get me started on a meeting I went to about the person that's the subject of this thread. Damn sure don't want to talk about the makeup of rally participants, so I won't. As a choice I stuck by and was loyal to a fault by voting for our Party's pick to run for POTUS. "Many others" as mentioned, did not.

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Response to politicaljunkie41910 (Reply #24)

Tue Jan 2, 2018, 04:07 AM

90. Exactly. nt

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Response to LiberalLovinLug (Reply #22)

Mon Jan 1, 2018, 06:19 PM

38. Not according to Gallup

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #38)

Mon Jan 1, 2018, 06:41 PM

41. I said most popular active POLITICIAN

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2017/04/bernie-sanders-most-popular-politician-country-poll-says/

But you knew that.

You cite a poll that also puts Trump more admired than the Pope. Is that supposed to mean something?

I would expect Obama to be more admired and respected as a person. He ran the country for 8 years and took a lot of abuse doing it.

And my point about his popularity was not meant as a pissing contest. Even if that poll is now from last year, and may have changed and he's now in second or third place among politicians, The point is that his popularity is a very valuable asset to us winning again, and another loud voice against Trump and the GOP. And if some just cannot for whatever reason, get over the fact that someone dared to give Hillary a bit of competition in a primary going on two years now, then why not just avoid threads like this?

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Response to LiberalLovinLug (Reply #41)

Mon Jan 1, 2018, 06:49 PM

44. Why yes.

That was why I said most admired!!

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #44)

Mon Jan 1, 2018, 06:57 PM

46. Okay

You get a participation ribbon!

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Response to LiberalLovinLug (Reply #46)

Mon Jan 1, 2018, 07:08 PM

48. I don't see where I deserve your snarky response to me.

Have a Happy New Year.

Bye.

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #48)

Mon Jan 1, 2018, 08:13 PM

60. I thought I was being kind

in response to your own snark. I stated Bernie was the most popular politician based on the last poll I saw done on it. You respond with a poll on a very different theme and insinuate that I have been proven wrong. "Not according to Gallop". So I bit my tongue on that and at least acknowledged your efforts in publicizing some other poll you found on a related topic.

HNY S2S!

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Response to LiberalLovinLug (Reply #60)

Mon Jan 1, 2018, 09:45 PM

64. No. I posted a poll and stated where it came from. Not snark as you call it.

You I assume where referring to the bogus Harvard Harris Poll. Debunked internet poll.

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #64)

Tue Jan 2, 2018, 03:15 PM

124. Again...I don't give a fig if he is not the very very very mostest bestest #1 voted politician.

It seems important to you to prove this. Even if I just take your word that the poll is "Debunked" or "bogus", which there is no indication anywhere that that is true, surely Sanders would have been up there near the top. Again, since you seem to just graze over and cherry pick at my previous responses, I'll repeat what I said a few posts up:

And my point about his popularity was not meant as a pissing contest. Even if that poll is now from last year, and may have changed and he's now in second or third place among politicians, The point is that his popularity is a very valuable asset to us winning again, and another loud voice against Trump and the GOP. And if some just cannot for whatever reason, get over the fact that someone dared to give Hillary a bit of competition in a primary going on two years now, then why not just avoid threads like this?

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Response to LiberalLovinLug (Reply #124)

Tue Jan 2, 2018, 03:42 PM

133. Well, he's losing popularity among his own constituents as the year goes on

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Response to LiberalLovinLug (Reply #41)

Mon Jan 1, 2018, 07:46 PM

51. Not even that

That poll presented respondents with a limited -- and somewhat oddly chosen -- list and asked how they felt about the names on it. Sanders ranked high only among the people on that list. His fans have been posting that result here and elsewhere online as if it meant something.

I think the results might have been quite different had people been asked to name their favorite politician instead of choosing from a list.

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Response to LiberalLovinLug (Reply #41)

Tue Jan 2, 2018, 12:11 AM

78. No you didn't, your post does NOT say "active", but you knew that. Tell us, on what do you base....

....your definition of "most popular"?

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Response to George II (Reply #78)

Tue Jan 2, 2018, 03:57 PM

142. Okay.....just plain "politician" I only used that modifier to emphasize the difference.

The difference between a poll on most admired person in general in the whole wide world, and the most admired politician in America vs other ACTIVE politicians (taken during an active campaign). And this OP was about Sanders, still very much an ACTIVE politician.

But you knew that.

And its not my job to define what those pollsters meant by "most popular", ask them, or the people that responded.I would guess that its because as a POLITICIAN, he strikes a chord with more Americans on the issues he highlights than any other POLITICIAN. Who, is, you know, ACTIVE. In fact he has been very active.

And again, ad nauseum, who cares if he is first, second, third, or even fourth, like in that Gallop poll as most admired PERSON. I'll post this next paragraph again for you too, because you are still missing the point:

And my point about his popularity was not meant as a pissing contest. Even if that poll is now from last year, and may have changed and he's now in second or third place among politicians, The point is that his popularity is a very valuable asset to us winning again, and another loud voice against Trump and the GOP. And if some just cannot for whatever reason, get over the fact that someone dared to give Hillary a bit of competition in a primary going on two years now, then why not just avoid threads like this?


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Response to LiberalLovinLug (Reply #142)

Tue Jan 2, 2018, 04:10 PM

146. When did Steve Bannon become an "active politician" or simply "politician"? And Rex Tillerson?

I really don't care if he's first, second, or whatever, but apparently it's VERY important to some since comments about those polls find themselves into discussions like this quite often, even though the two polls that are most referenced have been credibly debunked.



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Response to George II (Reply #146)

Tue Jan 2, 2018, 05:11 PM

154. "Credibly debunked" by you and a handful of other Bernie bashers.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harris_Insights_%26_Analytics

Harris Insights & Analytics, headquartered in Rochester, New York,[1] is a market research firm, known for "The Harris Poll". Begun in 1963, The Harris Poll is one of the longest running surveys measuring public opinion in the U.S., with a history of advising leaders during times of change such as John F. Kennedy and Ronald Reagan.[2]

Youre smarter than they are though. What other polls were bogus that they did?

http://www.theharrispoll.com/politics/

Just 21 percent of adults want Congress to try again to repeal and replace the controversial health reform law, while two-thirds want the law kept in place and improved where needed, the poll results show.


or

Latest Harvard-Harris Poll Finds More than 6 in 10 Registered Voters Oppose Border Wall Between U.S. and Mexico

Again, even if there is a possibility that it is a bit skewed, because....I guess Bernie supporters are smarter with knowing their way around the internet or something, and he is only ONE of the top most admired politicians, its still ONE indicator of his value to us.

Every time any small OP comes up simply praising an action by Bernie, it gets highjacked into these long drawn out, nit picky piling on. Why are you and another poster on here so hell bent on trying to prove Sanders is not credible? Step back from the long left over resentment and look at it objectively. Why disparage such a ally now? Can't you get past it? Can't you at least see that despite you detesting the man on a personal level for some reason, that many do not. And because of that, he can help win elections? You won't be obligated to cheer him on. He'll go about his work regardless. He's nothing like Trump. He doesn't need that kind of sycophancy. That is one of his many appeals. But it would help if you and others could simply avoid OPs like this and resist the need to destroy rather than unite.

Let . It . Go.


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Response to LiberalLovinLug (Reply #154)

Tue Jan 2, 2018, 06:58 PM

156. "Small OP"? How do you rate an OP, i.e., "small", "medium", "large"?

No one is discrediting the polling organizations itself, just the poll.

The Harvard-Harris poll that everyone is ballyhooing gave respondents a choice of only 12 (in one version) or 13 (in a followup version) "politicians", of which Steve Bannon and Rex Tillerson were included.

Not only that, from their own admission regarding their methodology, "Results were weighted for age within gender, region, race/ethnicity, marital status, household size, income, employment, political party, political affiliation, and education where necessary to align them with their actual proportions in the population. Propensity score weighting was also used to adjust for respondents’ propensity to be online."

In other words the polling organization subjectively manipulated the results to fit some pre-determined criteria/result.

Here are the ONLY choices given:

Bernie Sanders
Mike Pence
Donald Trump
Hillary Clinton
Elizabeth
Rex Tillerson
Nancy Pelosi
Paul Ryan
Chuck Schumer
Jeff Sessions
Bob Corker
Stephen Bannon
Mitch McConnell

Missing were Barack Obama, Joe Biden, Al Franken, Kamala Harris, Andrew Cuomo, Angus King, Tim Kaine, Martin O'Malley, Kirsten Gillibrand, and hundreds more. Do you REALLY think this is a credible poll worth even talking about?

The other poll being bandied about only considered politicians' "popularity" among their OWN constituents, i.e., Harris among ONLY Californians, Schumer among ONLY New Yorkers, etc. Is THAT a credible poll? They didn't consider the opinions of voters outside the states where the politicians were elected.

As for your final paragraph, why are you hell-bent on denigrating others' opinions? Other than that, I'll ignore most of your highly insulting comments there.

As you say, "Let . It . Go."

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Response to George II (Reply #156)

Wed Jan 3, 2018, 05:30 PM

171. MY GAWD STOP

Yes a little OP. It was not Bernie criticizing the Democratic Party. It was not Bernie declaring Trump may one day may a good President. It was a simple tweet, on the eve of the new year, declaring his resolve, and encouraging others. That you have made so many posts in this thread, every one negative, in response is ridiculous.

You turn a simple rallying cry from one of our (maybe not your) leaders into a negative. It is not meant as some kind of literal scientific decree which he came to after hours in a lab and deduced that many people had not reached their prime intensity level yet. To think of his statement that way is, again, ridiculous.

Another thing, when a sports coach says that at half time, he is not necessarily speaking to the ones on the team that DID give their all in the first half for every play (like yourself apparently), but to those that know inside they could step it up even a bit. Because every little bit helps.
If you've been running at 100% high speed intensity from Nov 2016 on, good for you. Perhaps his remarks were for many that have felt discouraged and the TDS has taken its toll.

Such silly hills to die on. Both his statement about how we have to fight even harder this year, and the infamous poll where you feel compelled to pick it apart in your crusade to show how important it is whether he is really #1, and not 2 or 3 because they didn't include YOUR favorites. Talk to someone who cares. Is everything Sanders does or says taken as an insult to you? Always half empty?

I hope you save enough of your obvious potent 'intensity' this year fighting Trump as you allot to filling threads like this.

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Response to LiberalLovinLug (Reply #22)

Tue Jan 2, 2018, 12:06 AM

77. There are two polls that have found him to be "the most popular politician in America"...

....both are questionable.

One polled only those in Senators' home states, which is questionable on it's face. Vermont has about 450,000 registered voters, New York has more than 12 MILLION voters and California has more than 18 MILLION voters.

The other one only gave respondents a choice of a dozen "politicians" among the thousands of politicians in the United States. Two of those dozen were Rex Tillerson (not a "politician" and Steve Bannon (not a "politician"

So which poll are you referring to, or is there some other criteria you're using?

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Response to George II (Reply #77)

Tue Jan 2, 2018, 03:48 PM

138. Both of those polls were jokes and do not prove anything

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Response to LiberalLovinLug (Reply #22)

Wed Jan 3, 2018, 12:07 PM

169. I consider dragging out his "Medicare for All" to be such.

Doesn't matter that it's as likely to pass as "repeal and replace" was during the Obama administration, nor that it is lacking in details that would answer the doubts that actual health policy experts have that it could be done.

It's an attention getter for someone who clearly thinks he's due the attention, and he's not going to turn loose of it for anything.





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Response to ehrnst (Reply #169)

Wed Jan 3, 2018, 04:41 PM

170. So when does any politician ever bring it up?

When does America take those first wobbily steps that every other western democracy has taken decades ago.
Never? Is that what you want?

Because it has to start somewhere. Do you think the suffragettes were taken very seriously when they first started floating the idea of women's right to vote? Or Martin Luther King Jr. when he first began calling for equality and desegregation for AAs?

The first step is to de-mystify it by putting it up for discussion. Its not like its a unicorn. Every other western democracy, and even many non-democracies have some form of single payer system where citizens know healthcare is a right, not a privilege. So it can be done. Its not impossible obviously. Even more doable in a rich country. And the first step is to let citizens know that it is not impossible. And get enough people excited about the possibility in order to gain political pressure in Washington. It happened with marriage equality when even a decade ago many would not believe it.

Baffling, living in Canada, how some Americans refuse to even begin a discussion on it and even smear any politician that dares to bring it up. The corporate media, whos owners have their claws in the private insurance, and pharmaceutical industry have done a great job there dampening any hope it seems when even more liberal / Democrat leaning folks bash anyone calling for it.

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Response to LiberalLovinLug (Reply #170)

Wed Jan 3, 2018, 06:12 PM

172. Yeah, well, here's some demystification for you.

Canada didn't go federal on health care until after all the provinces did so individually. And no, that didn't happen in 8 years, let alone 4 like Bernie sez will happen. Even Vermont couldn't figure out a way to make that happen.

Here is some more info on what is involved in retrofitting single payer into a huge country with long entrenched private health care insurance system, which makes it different than other countries when they started on their national health care plans:

https://khn.org/news/democrats-unite-but-what-happened-to-medicare-for-all/

Here is a lefty, not for profit org's analysis of Bernie's 2016 plan. They said that it would cause way more disruption in health care delivery, and would cost far more than he says it would:

https://www.urban.org/research/publication/sanders-single-payer-health-care-plan-effect-national-health-expenditures-and-federal-and-private-spending

To say that the only people critiquing Bernie's claims are the "corporate media," "private insurance" and "big pharma" is incorrect, and calling any actual critique "bashing" is as baffling to those who have actually studied it as the US is to you.

To keep hammering away at it is as deluded as the tea party was to keep hammering away at their GOP reps to "repeal and replace" as long as Obama was in office.

And as even DOTUS learned, "health care is complicated." Anyone who tells you otherwise is selling something, or running for office.

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #172)

Thu Jan 4, 2018, 03:50 PM

173. Appreciate the response

The "bashing" I am referring to is not thoughtful critics of the complexities of his proposals, but those that seem to be triggered by any post with the name "Sanders" in it to vent some kind of personal grudge they have against the man.

Its true that it is way more difficult to implement single payer healthcare now, when the private insurance industry is so entrenched. And some hospitals make great profits, while others rely on private insurance just to stay afloat. As well, the thousands of private insurance jobs that would be lost, although many I'm sure could be hired to fulfill roles in any new administration jobs. So sad that the US did not implement it when most other countries realized it was the cheapest, more thorough way to cover everyone.

I think Sanders realizes that it wouldn't happen overnight, despite his public bluster. But that is politics. I concede that a lot of his rhetoric is meant not as some kind of defined blueprint but a policy proposal meant to encourage debate and discourse on the subject, and keep the topic alive. He is asking for even more coverage than Canadians enjoy, including dental, funded entirely by the federal govenment, which most likely would never happen. But even so, I think its an important first step. Its an negotiating position where Democrats actually start with the demands heavily on their side, which has not been their MO of late.

But in most countries there is a partnership with private providers. For lab work for instance. It is more important that there is a set of legally defined standards for each State, and laws that back that up, than that the federal government fund it completely, like there is for each Province up here. As found on the Wiki page for Canada's Medicare, where provincial leaders made a re-commitment to Medicare and its standards in an accord in 2003 :


- all Canadians have timely access to health services on the basis of need, not ability to pay, regardless of where they live or move in Canada;
- the health care services available to Canadians are of high quality, effective, patient-centred and safe; and
- our health care system is sustainable and affordable and will be here for Canadians and their children in the future."

The USA is in some ways, better off to do it now as it can learn from so many other countries that have mixed private and public in many different forms. The important thing is the federal law defining the standards and the rights of each citizen to "high quality, effective, patient-centred and safe" heathcare."

But yeah, its complicated. Especially down there now. I think it would take something easy to understand like reducing the age of Medicare recipients by 5 years in implementations over perhaps even decades. Which would require of course every federal government whether R or D to continue with the plan. Which sounds impossible at first blush, but thats why, if ever it is going to happen, the conversation needs to get started. And it needs to be full of hope and positivism. There must be debate where conservatives are shown why it would all be worth it. For one, after the initial painful first years of implementation, in the long run, it would be cheaper.

Another overlooked aspect for business, that I became aware of, is that in this increasingly global economy, US businesses are at present at a disadvantage when bidding on contracts with other firms based in almost every other nation. That's because in those countries, workers pay for their own healthcare through their taxes to government. For most larger reputable firms in the US, the companies must factor in the costs for workers health insurance benefits.

I think it would be a long game if it happens. Sanders is only one of the first wave on the front lines, so he will be pillared by both left and right. I really though do not consider Sanders as having the complete answer. He is like the soldier sent out to take the bullets for the ones coming up from behind.

Republicans would have to have an overhaul. And get back to their traditional roots. But that may happen finally after they become sick enough of the bloated self-serving idiot and when Red State R voters realize how this new tax scam will affect them. It may be wishful thinking but surely the damn has to break eventually.

Anyways, as a Canuck, the only reason I am so passionate about this is that I really want my good friends and neighbours to the south to have what we have. It is not even so much the savings over time. It is more the inner peace. Its one less thing to worry about in this crazy world. Here, we do not even use the word "insurance". And certainly not "pre-existing condiition". Medical service is just a given from when you are a kid all the way through ones life, no matter where or if you are working or not. For anything from a sore stomach to heart surgery. So it is a totally different way of living. That is what I want for my brothers and sisters in America.

Happy New Year






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Response to LiberalLovinLug (Reply #173)

Thu Jan 4, 2018, 04:24 PM

174. Happy New Year to you as well!

And no, Bernie does not tolerate any analysis of his "Medicare for All" by experts who don't agree with every part of it. He is not planning on a "long game."

https://www.urban.org/research/publication/response-criticisms-our-analysis-sanders-health-care-reform-plan

His plans state that it will happen within a four year span.

I am very passionate about health care - and know a bit more health care policy than most citizens. There are many ways to get to universal health care, and as you said - the vast majority of developed countries don't do it with Single Payer, but a mixture of plans.

I am for whatever gets us to universal health care the soonest - because that is what will save more lives. The ACA is the closest we've ever come, and an incremental expansion of it is what most professional analyst believe will be the most probable route.

https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/2017/9/8/16271888/health-care-single-payer-aca-democratic-agenda

If Sanders wants to brand it as his own, and tries to take down or discourage any effort that doesn't follow his plan, then he is the one standing in the way of actual universal health care coverage. He's not the first wave, by any means, in the push for universal health care. It's not about him.

I hope he figures that out soon.


(I had single payer when I lived in the UK, and loved the care I received. I just wish the US had done it when it was possible - back in the Truman Administration.)

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #174)

Fri Jan 5, 2018, 06:53 PM

177. I agree

The only thing I might have a bit of an other view is that I have a reaction to posts that want to portray Sanders as "wants to brand it as his own" . This portrayal of him as some kind of egotistical pompous asshole. I think perhaps his gruff exterior does him no favors, but I believe that he has Americans best intentions at heart. That he would NOT stand it the way of real universal coverage.

But lets face it, universal coverage does not happen without single payer. I know we are splitting hairs maybe, but IMO, whether the State pays for everything and everybody, or whether it is a mixed private / public, it is the Single Payer government that GUARANTEES at least a minimal healthcare coverage by law, which also includes any more serious condition, in other western democracies. To me, that IS single payer for all intents and purposes.

And I think Bernie is smart enough to know that as well. And I think he is also smart enough to know that it wouldn't happen as soon as he is pushing for. Its a political game to push the conversation. I see nothing wrong or disingenuous about that. He is a politician after all. I find it odd that people criticize a politician for using the bully pulpit to promote their vision. That he is just looking for attention!!! I mean.....isn't that why they call it a public office? If you use that theory on others in the past you'd have to also accuse MLK and Ghandi and any others with charges that they only wanted to be famous and had no real passion about the topic.

cheers

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Response to LiberalLovinLug (Reply #177)

Fri Jan 5, 2018, 08:23 PM

178. Then how do nearly all the other developed nations do it, if single payer is the only way?

Last edited Sat Jan 6, 2018, 02:02 PM - Edit history (2)

That overlooks all the evidence that it can indeed be done, and dismisses the vast majority of public policy analysts, that have no election to win.

I understand that Bernie tolerates no dissent from his point of view. This has been noted by more than one of his progressive colleagues.

No matter how well meaning that POV may be, if he can't learn, or listen, then he's no Gandhi or MLK. I really don't think that's an accurate comparison. At all.

Lack of flexibility or any admission that one has anything to learn should not be confused with strength or purity of motive. That is what makes me think that he is not the one to implement a progressive agenda. He does well as a gadfly, and as the representative of a very small, very homegenous population.

Cheers.

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Response to DavidDvorkin (Reply #17)

Mon Jan 1, 2018, 05:05 PM

23. It's because of the divisive actions taken by him and his people at the Convention and after

the Primary was long decided that we have Trump in the first place.

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Response to politicaljunkie41910 (Reply #23)

Mon Jan 1, 2018, 05:46 PM

31. Not this again!!

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Response to InAbLuEsTaTe (Reply #31)

Mon Jan 1, 2018, 08:00 PM

57. Tell me about it...



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Response to InAbLuEsTaTe (Reply #31)

Tue Jan 2, 2018, 12:12 AM

79. Not "what" again?

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Response to politicaljunkie41910 (Reply #23)

Mon Jan 1, 2018, 05:59 PM

36. we have trump because he worked illegally with a foriegn power to subvert

an American election

why in god's name are you protecting putin and trump's illegal activity?

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Response to politicaljunkie41910 (Reply #23)

Mon Jan 1, 2018, 11:35 PM

70. You do know there are rules here about reliving the primaries, right?

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Response to marble falls (Reply #70)

Mon Jan 1, 2018, 11:46 PM

73. I didn't start this thread and there are many more responses before mine which 'relive' it.

Why aren't you having this discussion with them, not me. And by your responding, you just ensure that you contribute to its longevity.

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Response to DavidDvorkin (Reply #17)

Tue Jan 2, 2018, 08:47 PM

159. agreed

 

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Response to DavidDvorkin (Reply #17)

Wed Jan 3, 2018, 11:02 AM

167. +++++++

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Response to LiberalLovinLug (Reply #16)

Mon Jan 1, 2018, 05:03 PM

21. Ditto. The first to comment as usual,

and the usual suspects. Never mind the principles, policies and positions; never mind the consistency over 40 years, the authenticity or popular appeal. It's about -- as you say -- the butthurt.

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Response to KPN (Reply #21)

Mon Jan 1, 2018, 05:54 PM

35. Yup

No other reason I can think of.

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Response to KPN (Reply #21)

Mon Jan 1, 2018, 07:43 PM

50. Why the personal attack on GeorgeII?

The first to comment as usual,


the usual suspects.


It's about -- as you say -- the butthurt.


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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #50)

Mon Jan 1, 2018, 10:43 PM

66. Wait a minute there!

No personal attack. Don't pull that. Geesh -- along those lines, why are you posing this question?

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Response to KPN (Reply #66)

Mon Jan 1, 2018, 11:19 PM

69. Hmmm. You ask... Why am I posing this question?

KPN
66. Wait a minute there!


No personal attack. Don't pull that. Geesh -- along those lines, why are you posing this question?


Well you said...to another poster about GeorgeII...see below.



KPN (3,889 posts)
21. Ditto. The first to comment as usual,

and the usual suspects. Never mind the principles, policies and positions; never mind the consistency over 40 years, the authenticity or popular appeal. It's about -- as you say -- the butt hurt.


I question why you would say this to someone giving their opinion to be...

The first to comment as usual,



Is their an issue with first comments on DU? Do we count and make tallies of them? Never heard of this.

the usual suspects.


Oh! The 'usual suspects canard' Wait what does that even mean??? Who are these said suspects and more to the point what do you suspect them of? Suspects sounds criminal...what is their crime?

It's about -- as you say -- the butt hurt.


Butt hurt? Pretty nasty to say to another Democrat on this board,

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #69)

Tue Jan 2, 2018, 03:07 AM

87. Just making factual observations

about silliness that repeats itself around anything Bernie. It's unproductive or worse. And yeah, I think the word "butt hurt" as mentioned by an earlier poster was an apt general descriptor of what lies behind the silliness.

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Response to KPN (Reply #87)

Tue Jan 2, 2018, 12:50 PM

102. You're not making factual observations. You're making insulting assumptions.

Calling fellow DUers who express opinions you disagree with "silly" and "butthurt" is an insult. It states no facts.

I have never called anyone silly on DU. You did it at least twice in just this one thread.

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #102)

Tue Jan 2, 2018, 01:04 PM

105. Are you really that easily insulted?

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Response to KPN (Reply #105)

Tue Jan 2, 2018, 01:16 PM

109. So you admit it's an insult. Good. We're making progress. nt

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #109)

Tue Jan 2, 2018, 01:18 PM

111. Wrong. Exactly the point of my question. Your answer simply verifies.

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Response to KPN (Reply #111)

Tue Jan 2, 2018, 01:42 PM

114. Wrong, KPN. Telling someone they're silly and butthurt is an insult.

Sure, it's not the worst insult, but it's an insult nonetheless. It does nothing to address the statement you disagree with, it just attacks the speaker.

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #114)

Tue Jan 2, 2018, 03:10 PM

123. Already addressed the statement I disagree with -- for the umpteenth time no less.

That's why this is silly in my view ... rinse and repeat, rinse and repeat, rinse and repeat ... every time something positive is posted regarding Bernie. If that behavior isn't a manifestation of hard feelings I don't know what is. I'm just stating a factual observation ... and it (the rinse repeat cycle) strikes me as silly. No offense or insult intended.

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Response to LiberalLovinLug (Reply #16)

Mon Jan 1, 2018, 06:39 PM

40. He Doesn't Fight Alongside Dems

He disparages them and constantly criticises them. The only one he fights for is himself.

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Response to Me. (Reply #40)

Mon Jan 1, 2018, 06:43 PM

42. ...

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Response to LiberalLovinLug (Reply #42)

Mon Jan 1, 2018, 07:32 PM

49. THe Proof Will Be In THe Pudding

Though there is a candidate in Fla. who's still waiting for him to show up as he promised in 2016. And of course, I have to wonder if we will ever see those tax returns as promised. Get back to me at this time in 2018 and we'll see if his big talk has been walked.

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Response to Me. (Reply #49)

Mon Jan 1, 2018, 08:29 PM

62. Nobody is perfect, not even Sanders

I weight everything out and Sanders comes out ahead, for me.

Are you really going to die on a hill for a more complete tax release from one of the poorest Senators? What do you expect to see?
Or that he didn't endorse a candidate that you wanted him to?

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Response to LiberalLovinLug (Reply #62)

Mon Jan 1, 2018, 11:10 PM

67. What I Expect From A Senator That I Would Endorse

Is, however you may dismiss it, is that he keep his word. As for poorest Senator, don't make me laugh, the guy has well lined pockets, with a net worth estimated between 3/4 million to 3 mil and at least 2 houses. As for the candidate...I had no thought about him either way, however BS promised he'd go to Fla. and campaign him which he never did. Again, it's a matter of keeping his word. However unimportant that may be to some.

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Response to LiberalLovinLug (Reply #62)

Tue Jan 2, 2018, 02:51 PM

118. Saying "poorest" when refering to Sanders, is s slap to anyone who is strugling

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Response to lunamagica (Reply #118)

Tue Jan 2, 2018, 03:06 PM

122. One of the poorest SENATORS. I could have said one of the least wealthy instead I suppose

Which is true. If you want to take that as an insult so be it.

Bernie and Jane live, for the most part on their $200,000 Senator salary. Its a lot more than I make too. But unless you are proposing it be a volunteer position, I don't see it as an intentional slap. At any rate Sanders didn't decide himself on Senator salaries.

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Response to LiberalLovinLug (Reply #122)

Tue Jan 2, 2018, 04:03 PM

143. My Elbow

The Guy recently bought a second home, a summer one for $600000., he has his cushy senate salary, health, 3 mil a year for expenses not to mention sales from all his books. Mrs. also contributes...

“Sanders was out October 14, 2011, with a parting package worth $200,000 in salary, retirement payments and deferred bonus, paid out over two years.”

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/06/22/bernie-sanders-jane-sanders-lawyer-bank-fraud-investigation-burlington-college-215297

And how much in his campaign treasure chest? A pretty penny or two I'd warrant

So what if he doesn't have as much as other senators...he's not on the dole, he doesn't want for anything. He well-heeled and set for life.

Of course, if we ever saw his tax returns we'd know just how much he's worth, but we haven't.


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Response to Me. (Reply #143)

Tue Jan 2, 2018, 04:23 PM

147. Doesn't he also have a condo in DC?

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Response to lunamagica (Reply #147)

Tue Jan 2, 2018, 04:27 PM

149. You May Be Right

There were some articles which said 2 residences and some said 3 but as I could find solid confirmation for the 2, I used that. Let's just say, the guy isn't hurting, not like some of those other white guys he prioritizes.

Oh and just to add, there is their stock portfolio and interesting that most of their assets are in Jane's name, so if they don't file jointly, I don't know that we'd see many of his assets if we ever do see his tax returns.

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Response to Me. (Reply #143)

Wed Jan 3, 2018, 03:44 AM

166. amazing how many people believe that Sanders is not wealthy

 

ridiculous, really

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Response to LiberalLovinLug (Reply #122)

Tue Jan 2, 2018, 04:09 PM

145. That's all specualtion since he won't show his full tax returns. Don't you even wonder why this

lack of transparency on his part?

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Response to Me. (Reply #40)

Tue Jan 2, 2018, 03:53 PM

140. +1000

He tolerates no dissent, as his colleagues have noted.

Many find this makes a dynamic protest - all walking in lockstep.

But Democrats are a coalition of groups, and that is our strength. We value the skill of listening, of working with, rather than lecturing to.

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #140)

Tue Jan 2, 2018, 04:06 PM

144. Precisely

Per example...when he was removed from being the keynote at the women's convention, he suddenly found he couldn't be there at all and ran off for a photo op in Puerto Rico.

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Response to DonViejo (Original post)

Mon Jan 1, 2018, 05:02 PM

20. Good for Bernie

Primaries and fall elections are months away.

Everyone should resolve to unite against the GOP.

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Response to left-of-center2012 (Reply #20)

Mon Jan 1, 2018, 05:47 PM

32. Can't believe this is even controversial.

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Response to InAbLuEsTaTe (Reply #32)

Tue Jan 2, 2018, 02:00 PM

115. Bernie vowing to fight Trumpism is not what is controversial.

It's that he does it a year into the Trump administration.

A year ago, millions were in the street protesting Trump. What was Bernie doing? Saying he'd be "delighted" to work with Trump on trade. http://thehill.com/blogs/floor-action/senate/315655-sanders-ill-work-with-trump-on-trade

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #115)

Tue Jan 2, 2018, 03:47 PM

137. Thank you. (nt)

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Response to DonViejo (Original post)

Mon Jan 1, 2018, 05:43 PM

27. Seeing is believing...

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Response to DonViejo (Original post)

Mon Jan 1, 2018, 06:43 PM

43. I keep wanting to be angry with him, but I remember he told his supporters to vote for HRC.

Too bad they didn't listen. Smug self-righteouness really plugs up the ears.

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Response to DonViejo (Original post)

Mon Jan 1, 2018, 06:52 PM

45. By Pushing for Immigration Controls and Abolishing Trade Relationships?

Bernie's two big claims to fame besides single player were immigration controls and withdrawing from trade agreements. It is hard to see Bernie going more extreme than Trump on these signature issues.

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Response to TomCADem (Reply #45)

Mon Jan 1, 2018, 09:56 PM

65. The Democratic nominee opposed TPP.

I don’t think that her or Sanders’ position on that was extreme.

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Response to David__77 (Reply #65)

Mon Jan 1, 2018, 11:36 PM

71. Exactly, given that this was Bernie's Signature Issue...

...how does he distinguish himself from Trump? Does he go even more extreme and isolationist? Build a bigger wall with Mexico perhaps? Seek reparations from Mexico due to NAFTA?

Even on Russia, while Bernie has refused to support Russian sanctions, I doubt that Bernie can be be seen as even more supportive of Putin than Trump even though Bernie has been perhaps the least anti-Russian progressive elected on the Democratic/Independent side than anyone else. Only Nunes and Rohrbacher are more overtly supportive of Russia than Bernie.

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Response to TomCADem (Reply #71)

Mon Jan 1, 2018, 11:51 PM

74. He can advocate for reducing the military budget.

That would be a great way to promote peace.

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Response to David__77 (Reply #74)

Tue Jan 2, 2018, 12:18 AM

83. That Is True. This Could Keep Him on the Right Side of Russian Hackers...

...this does worry me that a Democratic nominee would likely be a target of Russian sponsored hackers, but if the Democratic nominee embraces Trump's state desire to reach out to Russia, but backs this up with reducing, rather than increasing US military expenditures, then perhaps Russia state sponsored hackers might leave the Dems alone.

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Response to TomCADem (Reply #83)

Tue Jan 2, 2018, 03:54 PM

141. I'm not sure that "reaching out to Russia" is a good idea.

After what Russia did in 2016, why would any Democratic nominee be courting their goodwill?

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Response to David__77 (Reply #74)

Tue Jan 2, 2018, 03:30 PM

127. That might be problematic

given the fact that Lockheed Martin's F-35 Lightning II is a radar-evading stealth fighter jet program is partially based in Vermont.

https://www.theverge.com/2013/9/19/4748464/inside-the-f-35-fighter-jet-the-pentagons-1-5-trillion-boondoggle

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Response to DonViejo (Original post)

Mon Jan 1, 2018, 07:50 PM

52. REPUBLICANISM !! REPUBLICANISM !! REPUBLICANISM !!

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Response to DonViejo (Original post)

Mon Jan 1, 2018, 11:13 PM

68. Good on ya Bernie!

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Response to DonViejo (Original post)

Mon Jan 1, 2018, 11:39 PM

72. I received a detailed recap of the year of Trump in an email.

No concrete first steps for "intensifying the struggle" were mentioned, but a request for money was.

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Response to lapucelle (Reply #72)

Tue Jan 2, 2018, 12:01 AM

76. Woah.

Wait. What?

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #76)

Tue Jan 2, 2018, 04:05 AM

89. LOL

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Response to DonViejo (Original post)

Tue Jan 2, 2018, 10:55 AM

97. Sometimes I wonder if du hates Bernie more than trump

Take a cruise thru the comments

We need to stay focused on Trump
Not Bernie

Trump

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Response to dembotoz (Reply #97)

Tue Jan 2, 2018, 12:56 PM

103. No, we don't. But I agree we should stay focused on Trump, not Bernie.

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #103)

Tue Jan 2, 2018, 01:07 PM

107. Really? Have you looked through this thread alone?

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Response to KPN (Reply #107)

Tue Jan 2, 2018, 01:15 PM

108. Yes, really.

Some of us have our issues with Bernie, but it hardly compares to our universal revulsion for Trump.

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #108)

Tue Jan 2, 2018, 01:16 PM

110. Hard to tell from here.

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Response to dembotoz (Reply #97)

Tue Jan 2, 2018, 01:05 PM

106. No kidding. The animus toward Bernie here is palpable.

Most of it has nothing to do with his ;positions on issues no less.

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Response to KPN (Reply #106)

Tue Jan 2, 2018, 04:38 PM

150. I think some of it has to do with issues. Some oppose advocating for single payer, for instance.

I can understand having and discussion policy disagreements. I'm hopeful that discussion can remain centered largely on policy.

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Response to dembotoz (Reply #97)

Wed Jan 3, 2018, 12:01 PM

168. Tell it to Bernie - he's the one seeking the attention.

I'm sure it's for a run (using the Demcratic party machinery and infrastructure, of course) for POTUS in 2020.

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Response to DonViejo (Original post)

Tue Jan 2, 2018, 02:58 PM

120. As a die-hard Team Hillary member...the past is the past

I'm done with 2016. Trying to untangle the whos and the whats that were responsible and making sure that everyone who fucked up gives apologies and making sure that everyone who got fucked over gets those apologies is time and energy wasted. Fuck it, it's done.

We have an enemy occupying the White House who is ripping up America about at about the rate as ISIS tearing down statues of antiquity. That is what is important.

Whatever Bernie wants to do towards the end of gutting that orange-tinted fascist's grip on power, I am 100% behind.

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Response to Tarc (Reply #120)

Tue Jan 2, 2018, 03:33 PM

130. No shit and THANK YOU!

2016 IS OVER AND DONE.

Your post is awesome!

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Response to DonViejo (Original post)

Tue Jan 2, 2018, 11:43 PM

161. Glad Bernie intends to "intensify" the struggle against Trumpism.

I noted Bernie said "intensify", not begin. Hope all Democrats, Independents, and Republicans who truly care about their country do the same.

Based on the danger our country is facing because of Trump, our energy should be focused on unifying against him, not fighting one another.

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Response to DonViejo (Original post)

Wed Jan 3, 2018, 12:31 AM

162. So the elephant in the room will be: Is Bernie going to make another run for the Presidency?

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Response to YOHABLO (Reply #162)

Mon Jan 8, 2018, 01:38 PM

180. Maybe not.

He would have to show us his taxes first.

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