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Thu Oct 12, 2017, 06:23 PM

EMILY's List: Sanders headlining Women's Convention 'sends the wrong message'

Source: the hill




EMILY's List: Sanders headlining Women's Convention 'sends the wrong message'
By Josh Delk - 10/12/17 06:58 PM EDT

EMILY's List: Sanders headlining Women's Convention 'sends the wrong message'

EMILY's List, which backs female candidates who support abortion rights, said Thursday that organizers of the Women's Convention are sending "the wrong message" by having Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) as a featured speaker at the event.

"The choice of Senator Sanders sends the wrong message," said EMILY's List president Stephanie Schriok in a statement. "We have more women leaders in elected office than ever before, and they are forcibly leading the resistance against Trump and his allies in Congress who are intent on attacking women."
.......................

The progressive event, organized by the same group behind the Women's March earlier this year, is a three-day conference ahead of the 2018 midterm elections. EMILY's List is among the groups supporting the event.

...................................
Sanders said that he is "honored" to join the women at the conference upon the release of the event, saying that supporting women's leadership is vital to progressive causes.

Read more: http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/355235-emilys-list-sanders-headlining-womens-convention-sends-the-wrong
















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Reply EMILY's List: Sanders headlining Women's Convention 'sends the wrong message' (Original post)
riversedge Oct 12 OP
Honeycombe8 Oct 12 #1
Crash2Parties Oct 12 #11
left-of-center2012 Oct 12 #26
emulatorloo Oct 12 #36
Honeycombe8 Oct 13 #68
emulatorloo Oct 13 #94
Honeycombe8 Oct 13 #101
emulatorloo Oct 14 #131
left-of-center2012 Oct 13 #95
emulatorloo Oct 13 #96
MrsCoffee Oct 13 #93
questionseverything Oct 12 #29
emulatorloo Oct 12 #38
questionseverything Oct 12 #43
questionseverything Oct 12 #45
emulatorloo Oct 12 #49
Honeycombe8 Oct 13 #63
Crash2Parties Oct 13 #67
Honeycombe8 Oct 13 #127
LisaM Oct 13 #126
brooklynite Oct 13 #98
questionseverything Oct 13 #123
KPN Oct 13 #102
pnwmom Oct 12 #13
Me. Oct 12 #53
Honeycombe8 Oct 13 #64
pnwmom Oct 13 #65
Honeycombe8 Oct 13 #69
pnwmom Oct 13 #70
Honeycombe8 Oct 13 #72
pnwmom Oct 13 #85
Honeycombe8 Oct 13 #73
pnwmom Oct 13 #80
Honeycombe8 Oct 13 #81
pnwmom Oct 13 #82
riversedge Oct 13 #83
George II Oct 12 #19
karynnj Oct 12 #2
LisaM Oct 12 #4
karynnj Oct 12 #8
LisaM Oct 12 #9
karynnj Oct 12 #16
emulatorloo Oct 12 #48
Honeycombe8 Oct 13 #71
LisaM Oct 13 #104
Honeycombe8 Oct 13 #105
LisaM Oct 13 #108
Honeycombe8 Oct 13 #111
LisaM Oct 13 #112
Honeycombe8 Oct 13 #114
LisaM Oct 13 #115
Honeycombe8 Oct 13 #113
LisaM Oct 13 #117
Honeycombe8 Oct 13 #119
LisaM Oct 13 #120
pnwmom Oct 12 #14
karynnj Oct 12 #18
George II Oct 12 #21
pnwmom Oct 12 #30
LisaM Oct 13 #118
sheshe2 Oct 12 #20
Tarheel_Dem Oct 12 #40
sheshe2 Oct 12 #44
Me. Oct 12 #54
Tarheel_Dem Oct 13 #66
emulatorloo Oct 13 #99
GaryCnf Oct 13 #128
Tarheel_Dem Oct 13 #129
GaryCnf Oct 13 #130
riversedge Oct 13 #116
melman Oct 13 #124
deurbano Oct 12 #10
LisaM Oct 12 #12
Honeycombe8 Oct 13 #74
karynnj Oct 13 #89
Purveyor Oct 12 #3
LisaM Oct 12 #6
ProfessorPlum Oct 12 #5
NurseJackie Oct 12 #7
kacekwl Oct 12 #15
Irish_Dem Oct 12 #17
George II Oct 12 #22
NurseJackie Oct 12 #24
OilemFirchen Oct 12 #31
George II Oct 12 #35
emulatorloo Oct 12 #42
cadmium Oct 12 #23
ProfessorPlum Oct 13 #106
Tarheel_Dem Oct 12 #41
Stuart G Oct 12 #25
Tarheel_Dem Oct 12 #46
Honeycombe8 Oct 13 #75
Philistein Oct 12 #27
CaptainTruth Oct 12 #34
George II Oct 13 #121
Philistein Oct 13 #122
George II Oct 13 #125
Post removed Oct 12 #28
brer cat Oct 12 #32
CaptainTruth Oct 12 #33
FailureToCommunicate Oct 12 #37
sheshe2 Oct 12 #47
emulatorloo Oct 12 #51
democrank Oct 12 #39
emulatorloo Oct 12 #50
Honeycombe8 Oct 13 #76
Voltaire2 Oct 13 #90
Jake Stern Oct 12 #52
emulatorloo Oct 12 #55
Justice Oct 12 #56
emulatorloo Oct 12 #58
Honeycombe8 Oct 13 #79
emulatorloo Oct 13 #97
Honeycombe8 Oct 13 #100
Beacool Oct 12 #59
pnwmom Oct 12 #61
Beacool Oct 12 #62
Honeycombe8 Oct 13 #77
treestar Oct 13 #87
Beacool Oct 12 #57
pnwmom Oct 12 #60
Honeycombe8 Oct 13 #78
riversedge Oct 13 #84
treestar Oct 13 #86
Madam45for2923 Oct 13 #88
ProfessorPlum Oct 13 #107
Madam45for2923 Oct 13 #109
JonLP24 Oct 13 #91
MrsCoffee Oct 13 #92
Madam45for2923 Oct 13 #103
Gothmog Oct 13 #110

Response to riversedge (Original post)

Thu Oct 12, 2017, 06:28 PM

1. I disagree with this TOTALLY. There is plenty of room at the table for anyone who supports the group

Not to have someone be a featured speaker because of his gender is wrong. There can be female featured speakers, too.

Inclusiveness is the name of the game, IMO. Would this group do to others what has been done to them (sideline them because of gender)?

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #1)

Thu Oct 12, 2017, 07:00 PM

11. He supported that Democrat candidates can/should be anti-abortion!

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Response to Crash2Parties (Reply #11)

Thu Oct 12, 2017, 08:43 PM

26. Got a link? n/t

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Response to left-of-center2012 (Reply #26)

Thu Oct 12, 2017, 09:15 PM

36. Seriously? You've already erased Heath Mellow from your memory bank?

The Omaha mayoral race Bernie inserted himself into earlier this yr?

So quick to call your fellow DU'ers liars when they aren't.

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Response to emulatorloo (Reply #36)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 12:25 AM

68. She just asked for a link. Most people citing facts should be prepared to provide a link.

It's normal to cite a link for a controversial piece of info.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #68)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 09:17 AM

94. What's controversial about the statement of well-known fact?

That endorsement was discussed a fair amount here.

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Response to emulatorloo (Reply #94)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 11:58 AM

101. The fact that two people disagree on it makes it a controversial statement. Duh. nt

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #101)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 11:08 AM

131. An actual fact is controversial? I don't think so.

Bernie endorsed Heath Mello. It's either true or it isn't. It's true. It isn't controversial that it is a fact.

Maybe you are using controversial in a different sense than I am.

But facts are facts, there is no controversy whether actual facts are factual.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #68)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 10:07 AM

95. Guess not for those pushing an agenda

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Response to left-of-center2012 (Reply #95)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 11:22 AM

96. What agenda am I allegedly pushing? Fact based here.

Sanders primary supporter just like you.

But as I say, I'm fact-based here.

So I am not going to pretend that things that happened didn't happen.

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Response to emulatorloo (Reply #36)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 08:14 AM

93. Heath Mello, Marcy Kaptur, Tom Perriello...

It was not a one time thing and his push to allow anti-choice candidates should disqualify him immediately from a place at the table.

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Response to Crash2Parties (Reply #11)

Thu Oct 12, 2017, 08:50 PM

29. bernie is pro choice

n/t

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Response to questionseverything (Reply #29)

Thu Oct 12, 2017, 09:18 PM

38. Remember Heath Mello? Guess not n/t

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Response to emulatorloo (Reply #38)

Thu Oct 12, 2017, 09:30 PM

43. bernie's statement on that

Sanders pushed back against the criticism. "The truth is that in some conservative states there will be candidates that are popular candidates who may not agree with me on every issue. I understand it. That's what politics is about," Sanders told NPR.

////////////////

I agree with him totally...any dem is better than any repub in my book...period

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Response to emulatorloo (Reply #38)

Thu Oct 12, 2017, 09:32 PM

45. so you saying perez is anti abortion too?

The Thursday event with Mello, a Nebraska state senator who's running as a Democrat in the mayoral race, is one of several rallies Sanders is holding across the country this week. It's part of a Democratic National Committee-organized unity tour with DNC Chair Tom Perez.

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Response to questionseverything (Reply #45)

Thu Oct 12, 2017, 09:43 PM

49. No, both Perez and Sanders are pro-choice.

Please don't put words in my mouth I did not say.

1) One poster said Bernie endorsed an anti-choice candidate.

2) Another poster insinuated that was a lie.

3) Bernie did endorse an anti-choice candidate, it is a fact

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Response to emulatorloo (Reply #49)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 12:14 AM

63. And that's okay that he did that. It's an area where that is the only viable option...

if someone wants to get elected.

If Dems want to get elected, they have to be pragmatic. In a geographic area where the population will elect only anti-abortion, that is the only kind of Dem that can run there & have a chance of winning.

Better to have a Democrat than a Republican in that office. Because most certainly the Republican will be anti-choice AND anti-healthcare AND pro-tax-cuts-for-the-1% AND pro voting ID laws AND pro-rubberstamping-all-or-most-Republican bills.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #63)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 12:25 AM

67. Some would call that, "thowing people with uteruses under the bus" to get what you want.

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Response to Crash2Parties (Reply #67)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 07:37 PM

127. That's similar to what Sarandon said about not voting for Hillary (helping Trump win).

It's not what "I" want, or "you" want. It's "we." We Democrats as a whole.

The Party has taken the position that in red districts, where there is a blue dog Democrat who can win, the Party will support that candidate. Because if it's not a blue dog, it's a Republican who will win.

I think "we" can all agree that it's always better for a blue dog Democrat to win than a Republican.

Wouldn't it be nice right now to have a few more Dems in Congress, even if they were blue dogs? They wouldn't automatically go along with the Republican agenda. And that's a good thing. Pragmatism is how you govern, if what I've read. If you hold out for perfection, you get nothing.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #63)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 07:11 PM

126. So it's okay to be pragmatic about choice....

but when it came to implementing a $15 an hour minimum wage, the idea of doing it incrementally was a non-starter?

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Response to questionseverything (Reply #29)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 11:42 AM

98. So are 99% of the Democratic Senators, Governors, House members...

There's nothing unique in Sanders' policy record or message that makes him a preferable choice for a Women's conference.

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #98)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 06:26 PM

123. well since many prominent women turned down the invatation

I guess what makes him preferably is, he will show up

most times in life that half the battle...who will actually show up

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Response to Crash2Parties (Reply #11)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 12:01 PM

102. Should? Disingenuous statement.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #1)

Thu Oct 12, 2017, 07:38 PM

13. Room at the table. Not HEAD of the table.

He could have been ONE of the speakers, not the HEADLINER. That spot should have been taken by a woman. If not by Hillary, then by Elizabeth Warren, Maxine Waters, or one of the many Democratic women leaders.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #13)

Thu Oct 12, 2017, 10:45 PM

53. Very Clear Distinction

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #13)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 12:15 AM

64. He is "A" featured speaker. Not "the headliner." There can be several featured speakers. nt

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #64)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 12:23 AM

65. Wrong. He is the LEAD SPEAKER. He is the HEADLINER.

He doesn't belong in that position. A woman should open the convention. A woman like Maxine Waters, who "is also coming," according to one of the organizers.

http://www.newsweek.com/bernie-sanders-womens-march-hillary-clinton-683579

BERNIE SANDERS WILL OPEN THE WOMEN’S CONVENTION AND SOME PEOPLE AREN'T HAPPY

But the choice of Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders as the lead speaker at the convention has sparked criticism from commentators, who suggested that a woman should have opened the event.

The participation of Sanders—who unsuccessfully challenged Hillary Clinton for the Democratic presidential nomination in 2016—was confirmed by the Women’s March on Thursday. Sanders is due to deliver the opening night address of the three-day conference on October 27.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2017/10/12/bernie-sanders-speech-womens-convention/756825001/

When Women's March co-founder Tamika Mallory was asked: "People are going to say, wait a minute, there’s a man as the headliner at the Women’s Convention, the first women’s convention in 40 years?" she replied:

"I would say that (U.S. Rep.) Maxine Waters is also coming to the conference, and we know she has been a very, very powerful voice in terms of all we’ve seen happening in terms of this administration, particularly, and she’ll be at the conference as well. And a lot of other people have been invited to the conference and we’re hoping to hear back from these folks. Thankfully, SenatorSanders has agreed to attend."

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #65)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 12:26 AM

69. Much ado about nothing. They were lucky to get him. Looks like Hillary & all other notable females

turned them down.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #69)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 12:28 AM

70. Wrong. Maxine Waters is a notable woman and she didn't turn them down. She's going to be there

but they're giving Bernie top billing.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #70)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 12:31 AM

72. Waters is the KEYNOTE SPEAKER. Bernie is opening the convention (not keynote speaker).

The key speaker is NEVER the opening speaker. Just like a headliner, there is always an opening act. Sanders is the opening act.

Though Sanders will speak the first night, Rep. Maxine Waters (D-CA) will deliver the convention’s keynote address. A spokesperson for Sanders said that the Vermont senator was invited by the Women’s March, and accepted the invitation to honor “the women at the front lines of our struggle for economic, social, racial and environmental justice.” And on Twitter, Tamika D. Mallory of the Women’s March noted that there are only two men speaking of 60 and that Waters, not Sanders, is the headliner:

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/10/12/16465012/womens-march-bernie-sanders

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #72)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 03:48 AM

85. That's what they are saying now, after the backlash.

Your article was from October 12, after the backlash.

But in another article dated October 12, Tamika acknowledged that Bernie was the headliner, and that Maxine "is also coming."

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2017/10/12/bernie-sanders-speech-womens-convention/756825001/

When Women's March co-founder Tamika Mallory was asked: "People are going to say, wait a minute, there’s a man as the headliner at the Women’s Convention, the first women’s convention in 40 years?" she replied:

"I would say that (U.S. Rep.) Maxine Waters is also coming to the conference,"


___________________________________________


And 5 weeks before the event they still weren't confirming that Maxine was even going to attend, much less be the keynote.

From Sept. 19:

http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/detroit/2017/09/19/maxine-waters-womens-convention-detroit/682216001/

The Free Press left a message Tuesday with Waters' office in Washington, D.C., trying to confirm whether she would attend the event or serve as a speaker or panelist. She did not respond. A spokeswoman for the Women's Convention could not confirm Tuesday whether Waters would attend the convention or play a role in its events.

Few other details are available about the convention, which is five weeks away.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #65)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 12:38 AM

73. No. Maxine Waters is the KEYNOTE SPEAKER. Sanders is the opening act.

The keynote speaker does not open a convention. Just like any headliner, there's always an opening act. Sanders is the opening act.

Though Sanders will speak the first night, Rep. Maxine Waters (D-CA) will deliver the convention’s keynote address. A spokesperson for Sanders said that the Vermont senator was invited by the Women’s March, and accepted the invitation to honor “the women at the front lines of our struggle for economic, social, racial and environmental justice.” And on Twitter, Tamika D. Mallory of the Women’s March noted that there are only two men speaking of 60 and that Waters, not Sanders, is the headliner

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/10/12/16465012/womens-march-bernie-sanders

The convention is entitled, "Reclaiming Our Time," in honor of Maxine Waters.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #73)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 01:00 AM

80. Tamika Mallory walked back her statement about Bernie being the headliner

AFTER there was so much of a backlash. She switched from saying Waters was "also coming" to claiming she was delivering the keynote. Even she recognized they had blown it.


https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2017/10/12/bernie-sanders-speech-womens-convention/756825001/

When Women's March co-founder Tamika Mallory was asked: "People are going to say, wait a minute, there’s a man as the headliner at the Women’s Convention, the first women’s convention in 40 years?" she replied:

"I would say that (U.S. Rep.) Maxine Waters is also coming to the conference, and we know she has been a very, very powerful voice in terms of all we’ve seen happening in terms of this administration, particularly, and she’ll be at the conference as well. And a lot of other people have been invited to the conference and we’re hoping to hear back from these folks. Thankfully, SenatorSanders has agreed to attend."


From your link:

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/10/12/16465012/womens-march-bernie-sanders

In a statement to Vox, organizers with the Women’s March defended the decision to give Sanders the opening-night slot. They said that several prominent female Democrats — including Clinton, as well as Sens. Kamala Harris (CA), Elizabeth Warren (MA) and Kirsten Gillibrand (NY) — had been unable to attend. (Staffers for Harris and Warren confirmed they were invited to participate at the event.)

“We all know how busy women leaders are, and we are grateful for the support of women like Secretary Clinton along with Senators Harris, Warren and Gillibrand. Although their schedules did not allow them to join us in Detroit the weekend of October 27, they will be fighting for our shared values, as they do every day,” a statement from the group said. Harris will be in Rhode Island on Oct. 27 helping Sen. Sheldon Whitehouse raise money for his reelection bid, according to the Sacramento Bee.

Still, it wasn’t clear if the Women’s March had offered Warren, Harris, and Gillibrand the same slot given to Sanders. A statement from the Women’s March said they were invited to “participate.” Officials with the organization wouldn’t confirm if any of the Democratic women had been first invited as the opening-night speaker, as Sanders appears to have been.

In its statement, the Women’s March also emphasized that more than 60 women — including Waters, United We Dream’s Greisa Martinez, and Our Revolution’s Nina Turner — are going to speak prominently at the convention. “Our program features more than 60 women leading in activism, organizing and advocacy, as well as grassroots leaders running for and serving in office across the country,” the organization said. “We are excited to come together, to unite across our differences and to fight for the future we all believe in.”

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #80)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 01:22 AM

81. I don't think so. The convention is named in honor of Waters. "Reclaiming Our Time."

Keynote speakers are NEVER the opening speakers. Some articles used the word "headlining," referring to Sanders being the first major speaker, but they didn't mean the definition the way some people took it (the "headliner" the "keynote" speaker).

People need to think about some things before they take some articles for granted. They named the convention in honor of Waters, but chose someone else to be the keynote speaker? Doesn't make sense, unless Waters couldn't go or whatever. If it doesn't make sense, it's usually not true.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #81)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 02:13 AM

82. That SOUNDS logical, but when they appropriated Maxine's theme, they still hadn't announced

and weren't confirming her participation in the event. Seems pretty strange that they wouldn't confirm that 5 weeks before the convention -- and only did after the uproar about Bernie.

Sept. 19:

http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/detroit/2017/09/19/maxine-waters-womens-convention-detroit/682216001/

In its announcement, the Women's March organization said Waters' words: "resonate beyond the floor of the U.S. House of Representatives. Women everywhere are tired of being interrupted, of being told to sit down, shut up and take less space.

SNIP

The words "reclaiming my time" were used in memes that spread on social media like weeds in an untended garden. DJ Adam Joseph turned it into a dance mix and Broadway performer Mykal Kilgore came up with a gospel version of the words in a nod to the congresswoman.

SNIP

Tamika Mallory, co-president of Women's March, said in a statement that the organization is honored to have Waters' voice "play such a pivotal role in our convention. 'Reclaiming Our Time' really captures the essence of this convention and why we believe this is such an important moment to convene, make our voices heard, and show that the rise of the woman is the rise of the nation.”

The Free Press left a message Tuesday with Waters' office in Washington, D.C., trying to confirm whether she would attend the event or serve as a speaker or panelist. She did not respond. A spokeswoman for the Women's Convention could not confirm Tuesday whether Waters would attend the convention or play a role in its events.

Few other details are available about the convention, which is five weeks away.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #13)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 03:46 AM

83. I agree.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #1)

Thu Oct 12, 2017, 08:00 PM

19. Every year our State Democratic Party holds a Women's Brunch (which is more than just eating)....

....and the speakers are ALL women, every year.

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Response to riversedge (Original post)

Thu Oct 12, 2017, 06:29 PM

2. Well, Emily's List can sponsor an event and pick their keynote speaker

Obviously, that organization which was behind the huge women's march thinks that Bernie would be a speaker they would like to hear.

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Response to karynnj (Reply #2)

Thu Oct 12, 2017, 06:35 PM

4. You may recall there was some kerfuffle with the organizers of the women's march in February.

A number of them were Bernie supporters and when they released their list of influential women to honor a few days ahead of the march, they purposely excluded Hillary, much to the dismay of many people attending the marches (including me). I weighed my options and went anyway, and I carried a sign that just said, "Hillary" on it.

Having him there isn't the real problem, it's making him the keynote or featured speaker (when they are co-opting taglines coined by Maxine Waters and by Hillary's campaign for their event, too). They also just announced it. As of October 4th, he was not on the list.

A lot of people I know in Michigan are pretty upset about this; I even heard local organizers weren't told about it until quite recently (I haven't verified this; I'm hearing it from people on the ground in the Detroit area).

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Response to LisaM (Reply #4)

Thu Oct 12, 2017, 06:46 PM

8. I don't get what your problem with who THEY have at THEIR conference is

They were Bernie supporters and they still are -- do you really think that it was at all likely that they would have picked a keynote speaker that you liked? This is a group that you would not want to be part of and would not join.

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Response to karynnj (Reply #8)

Thu Oct 12, 2017, 06:54 PM

9. Well, it's actually advertised as "The Women's Conference"...

the way the march was touted as "The Women's March". In fact, I originally thought it (the march) was more of a grassroots thing, though that wasn't entirely accurate as it turned out.



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Response to LisaM (Reply #9)

Thu Oct 12, 2017, 07:48 PM

16. Are the main people who organized it women?

If so and they are covering women's issues, why is it wrong to call it that.

The women's march did start out as grassroots and it then used the Action Network to get the word out. https://www.fastcompany.com/3069132/this-tech-platform-is-the-backbone-of-the-anti-trump-organizing-efforts

Note that the women who started the ball rolling did not complain when many in the media - noting people like you and your sign - spoke of the march almost as if it were because of Hillary Clinton.

I suspect that the reason you have a problem with it is that the speaker is Bernie. What would have been your reaction if it were Obama, Biden or Kerry?

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Response to karynnj (Reply #16)

Thu Oct 12, 2017, 09:37 PM

48. I suggest you not insinuate your fellow DU'ers are hypocrites because they disagree w you

I have been reading and enjoying posts yr since 2004 in the Kerry group. This is not your style.

Oh btw, somewhat off topic:

I remember when Bernie smeared a women's health organization that's been under constant attack by Republicans as "establishment". Don't recall Kerry, Obama, or Biden calling Planned Parenthood "establishment."

At anyrate IMHO having Obama, Kerry, or Biden open a Woman's Conference would be weird as well. ymmv of course.

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Response to LisaM (Reply #9)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 12:30 AM

71. Men have historically been part of the women's movement in America.

We wouldn't have the vote without their help. They can be great supporters.

Much ado about nothing. They were lucky to get him. He is the most famous national politician as a speaker for the convention. I'm assuming all the women turned them down for whatever reason (Pelosi, Maxine Waters, Warren, etc.).

Pretty disturbing that some are being narrow minded and discriminatory. Ironic.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #71)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 12:17 PM

104. Wow, are you serious?

It's not much ado about nothing. This is a person who said, right to Rachel Maddow's face, "let's move on to more important issues, like income inequality" when she asked him about Donald Trump's assertion that women should be punished for having abortions.

Yes, Bernie agreed that women shouldn't be punished for having abortions (I can't remember if he said, "this is ridiculous" or "enough is enough!", though the odds are he said one or the other).

But the fact remains that he said he wanted to move on to more important issues.

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Response to LisaM (Reply #104)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 12:28 PM

105. Use your noggin & look up history. Who do you think gave women the vote?

It wasn't women, since they couldn't vote (except one state, I think), and women were not in power anywhere.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #105)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 12:32 PM

108. WHAT?????

I can't believe that was a serious comment.

Human decency "gave" women the vote.

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Response to LisaM (Reply #108)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 12:41 PM

111. It was exclusively hundreds of men who VOTED to give women the vote & pass the 19th amendment.

Being for women's rights does not mean being anti-male or not recognizing the sympathizers to the female causes.

It is also true that WHITES worked for the civil rights movement. It was Kennedy, a white male, who sent in the National Guard. Some white men were killed in the south working on behalf of civil rights.

Read your history.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #111)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 12:49 PM

112. I can't believe I'm even in this exchange.

I'm supposed to thank men for the vote now? Starting with Bernie Sanders? Are you unaware of the suffragists who bled and sometimes died for the cause of women's votes?

I appreciate your mansplaining. Maybe Bernie can thoughtfully enlighten the women in Detroit how they should thank him for everything he's done, including his really enthusiastic joy about the possibility of the first woman president. Oh, wait......

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Response to LisaM (Reply #112)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 12:58 PM

114. These are just facts. What's your beef with facts and reality? But for men, you would not be able to

vote. That's a fact.

Being for women's rights is NOT being anti-male. I don't understand that mindset. Various people support various rights and causes. Don't you support the Voting Rights Act, even though you may not be black? Sheesh.

Dust off your history book. Read read read. Learn the history. Focus on the goal, not being "against" other people because of their gender or race, which is what you seem to be suggesting, in stating that men have no place in a convention for women's rights and did not participate in the successes of past women's rights movements.

http://www.history.com/topics/womens-history/19th-amendment
https://suffragistmemorial.wordpress.com/2015/07/07/7-suffragist-men-and-the-importance-of-allies/

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #114)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 01:06 PM

115. I'm not going to alert you, even though I should.

I cannot believe I'm even in this back and forth.

Should women thank men for everything? Should people of color thank whites for freeing them from slavery?

BTW, I don't need to "dust off" my history books. I have a fine collection of them, many to do with the Salem witchcraft trials. I suppose women should thank men for the fact that we're not being hanged as witches anymore, too.

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Response to LisaM (Reply #108)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 12:55 PM

113. Men are not automatically anti-women's rights. But for them, we would not have the vote. Here it is:

Here's how the vote came:

GETTING THE VOTE
On May 21, 1919, U.S. Representative James R. Mann (1856-1922), a Republican from Illinois and chairman of the Suffrage Committee, proposed the House resolution to approve the Susan Anthony Amendment granting women the right to vote. The measure passed the House 304-89—a full 42 votes above the required two-thirds majority.

Two weeks later, on June 4, 1919, the Senate passed the 19th Amendment by two votes over its two-thirds required majority, 56-25. The amendment was then sent to the states for ratification.

http://www.history.com/topics/womens-history/19th-amendment

The states then ratified, some immediately, some not for years. Mississippi was the last (not until 1984!).

Here's an article about some key male allies in the fight for women's rights: https://suffragistmemorial.wordpress.com/2015/07/07/7-suffragist-men-and-the-importance-of-allies/

Frederick Douglas was one of those key allies. He was male AND black, too! Yet he supported the women's rights causes, despite his own causes. He alone at times stood up for them, when no one else would.

#2 was George Francis Train, who supported Elizabeth Cady Stanton and Susan B. Anthony by providing his services as a speaker and by developing, launching, and funding The Revolution, their women’s rights newspaper. Train also helped out by writing articles for The Revolution.

#3 Tennessee Congressman Thetus W. Sims showed his intense dedication to women’s rights when, in 1918, he showed up to vote in favor of suffrage—with an unset broken arm and shoulder. Sims powered through the pain and stayed for the entirety of the voting process so that he could attempt to persuade any hesitant congressmen.

Henry Blackwell was not only a supporter of women’s suffrage, but also an activist. In 1867, he and wife Lucy went on a speaking campaign across the frontier, facing strenuous travel and unsavory living conditions. He served as an editor of what would eventually become the official newspaper of the National American Woman Suffrage Association, the Woman’s Journal. Later in life, Blackwell continued his impressive work as an advocate when he joined Susan B. Anthony on an extensive campaign through South Dakota—despite his age (sixty-five) and blazing hot summer conditions.

And many others. It's not an ordinary or easy thing for men of power to share their power. But they did the right thing, to their credit.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #113)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 01:16 PM

117. Is anyone else reading this mansplaining manifesto?

Just curious. I guess I forgot to say "thanks, Bernie!" often enough?

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Response to LisaM (Reply #117)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 01:26 PM

119. This started when I pointed out that men have historically played a key part in women's rights.

In this country. That is a fact. Nothing will change that fact.

How you feel about it is your business. But a fact is a fact.

I have expressed no opinion how you should "feel" about the sky being blue. I merely pointed out (and cited links to show you) the fact that the sky is blue.

If you are really committed and interested in women's rights, I wonder why you aren't familiar with this history. You have to read about this on your own. I have spent hours in years past reading about it, watching documentaries on it. Because I have an interest in it.

Here are two starter cites for a basic run-down on the suffrage movement:
http://www.history.com/topics/womens-history/19th-amendment
https://suffragistmemorial.wordpress.com/2015/07/07/7-suffragist-men-and-the-importance-of-allies/




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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #119)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 01:39 PM

120. Please stop.

Just please.

I'm not going to thank men for "giving me" my hard-earned rights. If you had the least awareness of an historical narrative, maybe you'd understand why women don't have rights. Have you heard of John Knox?

Sorry, I'm never going to thank someone for partially restoring what never should have been lost in the first place.

And just a clue: if you substituted the words "white" and "black" for "men" and "women", you'd have been handed an exit ticket. I guess it's just okay when we're only talking about the lowly female.

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Response to karynnj (Reply #8)

Thu Oct 12, 2017, 07:41 PM

14. The first WOMEN's convention in 40 years shouldn't be headlined by a MAN,

no matter how much his devotees love the man.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #14)

Thu Oct 12, 2017, 07:57 PM

18. It is NOT the first women's convention in 40 years!

If the organizers want Bernie as the speaker and he agrees to speak, I really do not get what the problem is. Not to mention, if people are offended, they will opt not to go.

If this is not a group that you would otherwise want to join, why do you care who they get to speak?

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Response to karynnj (Reply #18)

Thu Oct 12, 2017, 08:09 PM

21. The organizers are billing it as the first national Women's Convention in 40 years:

Last edited Thu Oct 12, 2017, 08:44 PM - Edit history (1)

https://www.democraticunderground.com/10141887672

"He was the right choice to be a headliner for the first national Women's Convention in 40 years, said Tamika Mallory, co-founder of Women's March..."

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Response to karynnj (Reply #18)

Thu Oct 12, 2017, 08:52 PM

30. Well, by their choice of their headline speaker, they have inadvertently made it NOT be

what they have been billing it to be.

An authentic women's convention would not be headlined by a male savior.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #30)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 01:24 PM

118. This whole thing is maddening.

I just want to scream.

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Response to karynnj (Reply #8)

Thu Oct 12, 2017, 08:07 PM

20. It is called a "Women's Convention"

They did not call it 'THEIR Women's Convention' for select women. I have no problem with Sanders as a speaker, however he should not headline a Women's Convention. I know this was not his decision, he was an invitee. Yet this is wrong and tone deaf by these sponsors.

The Women's March...it was for us, for all women. First and foremost it was the women and the wonderful men and children that joined to support us.



It was a beautiful day as the sun broke through the clouds in Boston. I was thrilled to be there that day. Crowds of 175K that came together for the rights of women everywhere was sweet to behold.



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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #20)

Thu Oct 12, 2017, 09:26 PM

40. It's Tamika Mallory. 'Nuff said. As a POC myself, she does not speak for me. This was a mistake,

and plays right into the hands of those who would continue to divide us. Tamika has an agenda here, and it's not unity.

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Response to Tarheel_Dem (Reply #40)

Thu Oct 12, 2017, 09:31 PM

44. I know. eom

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Response to Tarheel_Dem (Reply #40)

Thu Oct 12, 2017, 10:48 PM

54. And Nina

Surprised they haven't added on Sarandon & Stein

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Response to Me. (Reply #54)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 12:24 AM

66. Exactly. nt

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Response to Tarheel_Dem (Reply #66)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 11:49 AM

99. And Nomiki

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Response to Tarheel_Dem (Reply #40)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 07:58 PM

128. Intersting

She happens to be a friend, so why don't you tell me about how she has an agenda that isn't shared by many of us?

Is it fighting the racist criminal justice system?

Is she not punitive enough when it comes to laws to stop the gun violence that personally touched her (which, btw, are disproportionately used to imprison people who look like me)?

Is she too militant?

It's easy to throw around accusations.

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Response to GaryCnf (Reply #128)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 08:06 PM

129. I don't know what to tell ya. Find better friends?

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Response to Tarheel_Dem (Reply #129)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 08:10 PM

130. Lol

Expected. Still funny, but expected.

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #20)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 01:16 PM

116. I think Sanders could have declined being the headliner and say he would gladly be a speaker.

IMHO

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Response to riversedge (Reply #116)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 06:44 PM

124. He's not the headliner

That's completely made up by people trying to make a controversy where there is none.

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Response to deurbano (Reply #10)

Thu Oct 12, 2017, 07:00 PM

12. Yeah, it was really a divisive move.

And, like here, they saved up their bombshell until after people had committed to it (and presumably in this case, bought tickets). I'm certainly not accusing Bernie Sanders of having anything to do with the timing of this, but the organizers are being as tone deaf as Michael Moore's speech at the Women's march was.

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Response to karynnj (Reply #2)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 12:41 AM

74. It's not Emily's List's convention. But the group can choose its keynote, and its MAXINE WATERS.

It is not Sanders, as some headlines have implied.

Sanders is the opening act. Waters is the keynote speaker, of course...easy guess since the convention is entitled, "Reclaiming Our Time" in honor of her.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #74)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 05:28 AM

89. Thanks.

I doubt that would satisfy many who are angry that Sanders was asked to speak at all.

I was not suggesting it was Emily's list, which I contributed to pre 2007, but not since. My point was that it was not their choice.

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Response to riversedge (Original post)

Thu Oct 12, 2017, 06:30 PM

3. I'll just drop this here...

 

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Response to Purveyor (Reply #3)

Thu Oct 12, 2017, 06:38 PM

6. THANK YOU.

I really don't know what game they're playing, but that picture sums up what they're accomplishing (some might say on purpose, and I might be one of those people).

Nomiki Konst is going to be there, too. You may recall her from this exchange the other day: https://www.democraticunderground.com/10029688520


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Response to riversedge (Original post)

Thu Oct 12, 2017, 06:38 PM

5. boy, that Bernie Sanders just can't do anything right, can he?

this is another episode of f*ing everything up for our bumbling anti-hero. If only he weren't worshipped like a god around here.








/sarcasm. obviously

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Response to riversedge (Original post)

Thu Oct 12, 2017, 06:42 PM

7. Glad they're speaking out....

... it needs to be said.

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Response to riversedge (Original post)

Thu Oct 12, 2017, 07:46 PM

15. I'm sorry, did he force his way in to speak ?

I'm sure there will be many female leaders speaking at this event. Supporters come in all genders . I also believe there were men at the women's march no?

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Response to riversedge (Original post)

Thu Oct 12, 2017, 07:50 PM

17. Sanders polls as the most popular politician in America today.

People like what he says.

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Response to Irish_Dem (Reply #17)

Thu Oct 12, 2017, 08:13 PM

22. No he doesn't.

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Response to George II (Reply #22)

Thu Oct 12, 2017, 08:21 PM

24. Truth. Thank you.

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Response to George II (Reply #22)

Thu Oct 12, 2017, 08:54 PM

31. Just so you know...

Every day, a new recruit is required to post this on DU. Failure to do so results in replacing the recruit's IPA with a Pilsner for a minimum of one hour.

There's a steep price to be paid for apostasy.

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Response to OilemFirchen (Reply #31)

Thu Oct 12, 2017, 09:05 PM

35. Hah, good one, thanks! I actually thought it was Stolichnaya that would be replaced by Smirnoff.

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Response to OilemFirchen (Reply #31)

Thu Oct 12, 2017, 09:28 PM

42. ...

Needed a laugh, thanks

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Response to Irish_Dem (Reply #17)

Thu Oct 12, 2017, 08:15 PM

23. Joementum

Joe Lieberman was the most popular politician at this stage ---leading to the great JoeMentum that got him nowhere but back to the senate to sabotage Demorates

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Response to cadmium (Reply #23)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 12:30 PM

106. wow, that is a flat out untruth

please back that up with some polling or something. Lieberman had always been a reviled shill for the insurance industries and a prissy moral scold about Clinton. Nothing close to the "most popular".

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Response to Irish_Dem (Reply #17)

Thu Oct 12, 2017, 09:27 PM

41. That lie has been debunked more times than I care to count. n/t

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Response to riversedge (Original post)

Thu Oct 12, 2017, 08:40 PM

25. It will be up to Bernie Sanders if he wants to opt out..he has time..Oct 27..today Oct 12..

still time to opt out. My guess is they already asked Hillary..but really don't know.

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Response to Stuart G (Reply #25)

Thu Oct 12, 2017, 09:33 PM

46. This is nothing more than a Bernie for POTUS in '20 advertisement. Tamika Mallory is not to be....

trusted here, she has an agenda, and it's not about unity. She claims that this was just a scheduling conflict with Hillary, Kamala, EW, and other high profile female politicians. She's obviously getting her ass handed to her on social media over this.

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Response to Stuart G (Reply #25)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 12:44 AM

75. Might want to check your facts. Don't automatically believe what you THINK you read.

Article says Sanders is "headlining" the convention. In a way, I guess you could say that, since he's the opening act. But that does not mean he's the headliner, like you are thinking, or that he's the keynote speaker. He's not. MAXINE WATERS IS THE KEYNOTE SPEAKER at the convention titled in her honor: "Reclaiming Our Time."

There are 60 speakers. Two are men. Sanders is the opening act for the keynote speaker, Waters.

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Response to riversedge (Original post)

Thu Oct 12, 2017, 08:46 PM

27. Depends on how you look at it

 

I understand Hillary is headlining the second day, so maybe Bernie is the warm up act. That's the way I see it. Makes me feel better.

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Response to Philistein (Reply #27)

Thu Oct 12, 2017, 09:05 PM

34. Interesting way to look at it, & after seeing at least 200+ concerts in my life I get your point! NT

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Response to Philistein (Reply #27)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 05:35 PM

121. According to "Women's March", Hillary Clinton is NOT speaking. And they've been very vague....

....about who has actually been invited or who will be speaking.


?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

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Response to George II (Reply #121)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 06:24 PM

122. I guess Bernie is warming up for Maxine.

 

That seems fine.

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Response to Philistein (Reply #122)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 06:57 PM

125. First, Maxine Waters needs no "warming up". And it's a women's convention, one would think....

.....that Gallup's most admired woman in the world (for the 21st time) would be the "keynote" speaker (Women's March doesn't use that term)

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Response to riversedge (Original post)


Response to riversedge (Original post)

Thu Oct 12, 2017, 09:02 PM

32. Poor choice for a headline speaker.

K&R

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Response to riversedge (Original post)

Thu Oct 12, 2017, 09:03 PM

33. I don't know all the details but if this is a Women's Convention I feel the opening/keynote/first...

speaker should be a woman. There's no lack of talented/skilled members of the female gender who are MORE than qualified for the job ... & they should get the job!

Yes, there should also be a place for men who support their cause, but let that come later in the program.

Just my humble opinion.

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Response to riversedge (Original post)

Thu Oct 12, 2017, 09:17 PM

37. So, organizers of a Women's Convention can't CHOOSE who they ask to speak?

Also: this isn't Bernie's doing.

But you wouldn't know that from the comments here.



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Response to FailureToCommunicate (Reply #37)

Thu Oct 12, 2017, 09:36 PM

47. Then you failed to read my post 20, FailureToCommunicate.

Also: this isn't Bernie's doing.

But you wouldn't know that from the comments here.


I said exactly that.

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Response to FailureToCommunicate (Reply #37)

Thu Oct 12, 2017, 10:03 PM

51. Of course they can. Sorry, don't see a single post that says "this is Bernie's doing"

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Response to riversedge (Original post)

Thu Oct 12, 2017, 09:19 PM

39. After reading this thread, it's asy to understand why

Democrats lost about 1,000 state and federal seats over the last twelve years.

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Response to democrank (Reply #39)

Thu Oct 12, 2017, 10:00 PM

50. Democrats lost seats because they voted for the stimulus and Obamacare

They were demonized and lied about that. My Dem governor was accused by Rove and Koch of running up a huge deficit, when the truth was that he had a balanced budget. I personally don't believe it has a damn thing to do with differences of opinions on women's issues on DU

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Response to democrank (Reply #39)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 12:45 AM

76. +1. nt

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Response to democrank (Reply #39)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 06:41 AM

90. no shit.

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Response to riversedge (Original post)

Thu Oct 12, 2017, 10:33 PM

52. Can't help but wonder

if there would be as much outrage had the keynote been offered to Barack Obama or Bill Clinton.

Something tells me probably not.

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Response to Jake Stern (Reply #52)

Thu Oct 12, 2017, 10:54 PM

55. Something tells me it would be odd to have any man open a women's convention

But ymmv

Fun old Onion Story though:

http://www.theonion.com/article/man-finally-put-in-charge-of-struggling-feminist-m-2338


Man Finally Put In Charge Of Struggling Feminist Movement


WASHINGTON—After decades spent battling gender discrimination and inequality in the workplace, the feminist movement underwent a high-level shake-up last month, when 53-year-old management consultant Peter "Buck" McGowan took over as new chief of the worldwide initiative for women's rights.

McGowan, who now oversees the group's day-to-day operations, said he "couldn't be happier" to bring his ambition, experience, and no-nonsense attitude to his new role as the nation's top feminist.

"All the feminist movement needed to do was bring on someone who had the balls to do something about this glass ceiling business," said McGowan, who quickly closed the 23.5 percent gender wage gap by "making a few calls to the big boys upstairs." "In the world of gender identity and empowered female sexuality, it's all about who you know."

More at link....


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Response to Jake Stern (Reply #52)

Thu Oct 12, 2017, 10:57 PM

56. Tone deaf.

The objections are to a man headlining. Last I checked Obama and Bill were men. Insulting to those of us who object to ignore what we are saying.

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Response to Justice (Reply #56)

Thu Oct 12, 2017, 11:02 PM

58. Somebody tried to smear folks as "hypocrites" up thread as well

Claimed everybody would be happy if it was Kerry Obama or Biden opening. It's a bullshit claim and as you say, very insulting.

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Response to Justice (Reply #56)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 12:52 AM

79. I see no problem with a man being an opening act for the keynote speaker, who is female...

and for whom the convention is titled.

If the man has clout and a history of voting for women's rights and speaking out for them. Which I believe is the case with Sanders.

People need to decide whether they want to win elections or not and stop being so narrow minded about things like this. Eye on the ball, folks.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #79)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 11:36 AM

97. I doubt the outcome of any US elections will be decided based on this thread

YMMV

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Response to emulatorloo (Reply #97)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 11:57 AM

100. It's an attitude & lack of pragmatism & focus on the big picture that'll cost. Susan Sarandon effect

The "Susan Sarandon" effect. Focus on the minutae instead of the big picture and the goal, and bemoaning the lack of perfection, allowing the worst possible choice to get elected.

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Response to Jake Stern (Reply #52)

Thu Oct 12, 2017, 11:04 PM

59. The keynote speaker at a women's convention should be a woman.

Imagine an AA convention and the keynote speaker being a white man. It's insulting. That doesn't mean that Sanders shouldn't be a speaker, but not the opening night speaker. They should have chosen a woman.

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Response to Beacool (Reply #59)

Thu Oct 12, 2017, 11:27 PM

61. It's amazing and very discouraging that some progressives cannot understand this. n/t

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #61)

Thu Oct 12, 2017, 11:58 PM

62. Yes, it is.

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Response to Jake Stern (Reply #52)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 12:46 AM

77. +1. nt

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Response to Jake Stern (Reply #52)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 03:52 AM

87. It wasn't, though, was it?

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Response to riversedge (Original post)

Thu Oct 12, 2017, 11:01 PM

57. I agree with this tweet from Peter Daou.

Trump being POTUS, Bernie heralded #WomensCovention while Hillary is bashed in the press about #HarveyWeinstein is 2016 in a nutshell.

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Response to Beacool (Reply #57)

Thu Oct 12, 2017, 11:26 PM

60. Well, it's 2016-17 in a nutshell!

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Response to Beacool (Reply #57)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 12:49 AM

78. But those things are unrelated.

It's Republicans who are bashing Hillary about Weinstein. It's Democratic women who have invited Sanders to open the convention. The two things are unrelated.

Hillary is bashed in the press because she won the nomination and was the Democratic candidate. Sanders was not.

I assume the convention asked Hillary to speak, and she declined. Could be a scheduling conflict.

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Response to Beacool (Reply #57)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 03:47 AM

84. Sadly, so true.

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Response to riversedge (Original post)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 03:49 AM

86. Makes no sense

There are plenty of women who could do it.

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Response to riversedge (Original post)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 04:43 AM

88. I agree with Emily's list. Wondering about these organizers...

 

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Response to Madam45for2923 (Reply #88)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 12:32 PM

107. maybe they recognize a popular ally

or maybe they are just working in their own worst interests. Gee, what a poser.

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Response to ProfessorPlum (Reply #107)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 12:33 PM

109. Nah! We gots to agree to disagree on this one, won't we?

 

You well meaning DEM you!

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Response to riversedge (Original post)


Response to riversedge (Original post)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 08:05 AM

92. Damn right it does. The tone deafness continues.

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Response to MrsCoffee (Reply #92)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 12:09 PM

103. Yep! Tone deafness is right.

 

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Response to riversedge (Original post)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 12:40 PM

110. K&R

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