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Fri Sep 29, 2017, 01:38 AM

US troops deliver food, supplies to devastated Puerto Rico during round-the-clock operations

Source: Military Times

US troops deliver food, supplies to devastated Puerto Rico during round-the-clock operations

By: Kathleen Curthoys and Stephen Losey    8 hours ago

The U.S. military kept up round-the-clock missions on Thursday to send aircraft, troops, food and supplies to Puerto Rico and the U.S. Virgin Islands as the devastated region struggles to recover after Hurricanes Maria and Irma slammed the islands. Eight flights were scheduled Thursday as part of 24-hour operations to deliver food, water, medical supplies, communications support and power-generating equipment, officials with U.S. Northern Command said in a release. The operations include search-and-rescue efforts, distribution of supplies and bringing power back up at hospitals, airports, ports and other facilities.
(snip)

NORTHCOM is deploying medical capabilities and ambulances, and U.S. Navy hospital ship USNS Comfort was expected to leave from Norfolk, Virginia, on Friday and arrive in Puerto Rico in a few days. C-17 and C-5 cargo aircraft were arriving Thursday in Puerto Rico, laden with supplies such as an FAA generator to support radar control operations, a Coast Guard Mobile Medical unit and heavy-duty trucks.
(snip)

Since Hurricane Maria, Air Mobility Command has flown nearly 200 sorties, delivering about 1,500 short tons of critical equipment and supplies, such as fuel, communications equipment, generators, medical equipment, food and water, said Col. Patrick Ryder, an Air Force spokesman. AMC air medical evacuation teams have moved a total of 104 patients from St Croix, including one mission on Sept. 24 that moved 34 patients. The medical team said that was the biggest mission they’ve had since during Katrina. The largest they had then was 23 patients on one flight. The Air National Guard has also flown 213 sorties to date, delivering about 1000 short tons of cargo, and 1200 personnel, flying C-130s, KC-135s, C-17s, HH-60s, RC-26s, C-40s. Personnel include aerial port, medical personnel, and communications personnel needed to help with relief operations.
(snip)

As of Wednesday, the U.S. Army had deployed more than 4,000 soldiers and U.S. Army Corps of Engineers civilians, 15 aircraft and more than 500 trucks as part of the response and relief efforts in Puerto Rico and the Virgin Islands, Army officials said in a release. The Puerto Rico Army National Guard was working to restore lines of communication and provide engineer support to clear routes for humanitarian assistance missions, Army officials said.
(snip)


Read more: http://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2017/09/28/us-troops-deliver-food-supplies-to-devastated-puerto-rico-during-round-the-clock-operations/

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Reply US troops deliver food, supplies to devastated Puerto Rico during round-the-clock operations (Original post)
nitpicker Sep 2017 OP
truthisfreedom Sep 2017 #1
Lurks Often Sep 2017 #8
Stryst Sep 2017 #2
pnwmom Sep 2017 #3
peacebuzzard Sep 2017 #6
appal_jack Sep 2017 #9
SunSeeker Sep 2017 #4
AtheistCrusader Sep 2017 #11
SunSeeker Sep 2017 #13
AtheistCrusader Sep 2017 #14
SunSeeker Sep 2017 #15
AtheistCrusader Sep 2017 #18
SunSeeker Sep 2017 #21
AtheistCrusader Sep 2017 #23
SunSeeker Sep 2017 #29
AtheistCrusader Sep 2017 #30
SunSeeker Sep 2017 #35
AtheistCrusader Sep 2017 #37
SunSeeker Sep 2017 #39
AtheistCrusader Sep 2017 #40
SunSeeker Sep 2017 #41
AtheistCrusader Sep 2017 #43
SunSeeker Sep 2017 #44
AtheistCrusader Sep 2017 #52
SunSeeker Sep 2017 #56
AtheistCrusader Sep 2017 #58
SunSeeker Sep 2017 #61
AtheistCrusader Oct 2017 #62
SunSeeker Oct 2017 #63
AtheistCrusader Oct 2017 #64
SunSeeker Oct 2017 #65
AtheistCrusader Oct 2017 #66
SunSeeker Oct 2017 #67
AtheistCrusader Oct 2017 #68
SunSeeker Oct 2017 #69
AtheistCrusader Oct 2017 #70
SunSeeker Oct 2017 #71
AtheistCrusader Oct 2017 #72
SunSeeker Oct 2017 #73
AtheistCrusader Oct 2017 #74
SunSeeker Oct 2017 #75
TexasBushwhacker Sep 2017 #60
Docreed2003 Sep 2017 #51
AtheistCrusader Sep 2017 #54
Docreed2003 Sep 2017 #55
AtheistCrusader Sep 2017 #59
KY_EnviroGuy Sep 2017 #46
flying rabbit Sep 2017 #57
SharonAnn Sep 2017 #49
AtheistCrusader Sep 2017 #53
riversedge Oct 2017 #76
SunSeeker Oct 2017 #77
mr_lebowski Sep 2017 #5
7962 Sep 2017 #7
hack89 Sep 2017 #10
sarisataka Sep 2017 #16
hack89 Sep 2017 #20
DashOneBravo Sep 2017 #47
hack89 Sep 2017 #50
DashOneBravo Sep 2017 #48
AtheistCrusader Sep 2017 #12
discntnt_irny_srcsm Sep 2017 #45
SunSeeker Sep 2017 #17
AtheistCrusader Sep 2017 #19
SunSeeker Sep 2017 #22
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Ilsa Sep 2017 #42
stonecutter357 Oct 2017 #78

Response to nitpicker (Original post)

Fri Sep 29, 2017, 01:47 AM

1. How many days were allowed to pass without action?

How many have been lost as a result? Just how culpable is the NFL CIC?

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Response to truthisfreedom (Reply #1)

Fri Sep 29, 2017, 08:10 AM

8. The were US Marines & Sailors on the island the morning after the hurricane

 

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Response to nitpicker (Original post)

Fri Sep 29, 2017, 02:25 AM

2. I've been watching the cargo planes out of Tyndall Air Base

I wish only the best for both the victims and the aid workers. Aid work was my favorite part of being in the military. It's the only time I really felt like I was serving my country.

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Response to Stryst (Reply #2)

Fri Sep 29, 2017, 02:43 AM

3. And that was a huge service, Stryst. Thank you!

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Response to Stryst (Reply #2)

Fri Sep 29, 2017, 05:54 AM

6. Military rescuers are like uniformed angels

Providing efficient relief in the disaster areas. It is a source of my personal pride when the boots on the ground get to our citizens who have been torn apart. I think it's what the US does best! you did great work, Styrst.

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Response to Stryst (Reply #2)

Fri Sep 29, 2017, 08:20 AM

9. Thank you Stryst & all currently serving! nt

 

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Response to nitpicker (Original post)

Fri Sep 29, 2017, 02:51 AM

4. Why the fuck has the USNS Comfort hospital ship been sitting in Norfolk all this time?

Heckova job, Trumpie.

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #4)

Fri Sep 29, 2017, 11:53 AM

11. Because it's inferior to the USS Kearsarge and can't dock in Puerto Rico right now.

Next question.

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #11)

Fri Sep 29, 2017, 12:33 PM

13. Link? And even if it can't dock, small boats can bring patients to it.

And it certainly is not inferior to a wiped out hospital, like most of the hospitals on that island.

Next excuse.

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #13)

Fri Sep 29, 2017, 01:22 PM

14. The USNS Comfort has a 33 foot draft. San Juan port has a channel depth of 34.7 feet.

Under ideal conditions, it can be very carefully docked and then it is quite useful. These are not ideal conditions. The port was opened Thursday for limited sized ships, and daylight hours only. The coast guard is working to define and clear the channel.

It is also difficult to tie up to, because it's an old oil tanker, and rolls heavily in any sort of seas. It has a single, small helipad with no hangar.

The Kearsarge has six operating rooms and 513 beds, with contingency room for more, plus a deck that can launch/retrieve up to 7 helicopters at once, PLUS amphibious transports and a wet deck for internal docking. Kearsarge was there (and the Oak Hill) before the hurricane even arrived. It's half the Comfort, medically speaking (with the best of the Navy, as far as doctors go) but with the ability to get lots of people on and off the ship under just about any conditions.

The Comfort was in Costa Rica in 2011, for 11 days and triaged 8,376 patients. To do that, it must dock. The Kearsarge and Oak Hill don't need to, that's why the DoD had no intent to send Comfort for this specific disaster. It's also holding the Iwo Jima and New York at the ready, which would double the capabilities of the Kearsarge. (I don't know why they haven't sent it, they should, really I think. But it's being re-loaded after being utilized in the Keys.)


The DOD said why it wasn't sending the Comfort on Monday. Political pressure has changed that, but that still doesn't mean it will be able to dock.

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #14)

Fri Sep 29, 2017, 02:13 PM

15. I see you have no link. It CAN anchor offshore, with smaller boats bringing patients to it.

Of course that would not be ideal conditions for its operation, but it is still better for the patient than NO HOSPITAL AT ALL. The ship still has full power and medical supplies, which is more than even the few hospitals that are operating can say.

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #15)

Fri Sep 29, 2017, 02:36 PM

18. The Kearsarge is a hospital.

It has 6 OR's, the Comfort has 12, but as I mentioned, you cannot get large quantities of people on or off the Comfort right now, and the Comfort's hull is reputed to roll a lot at sea, so not fun to play doctor in it. The Navy has been asking to replace it for years because of that.

This decision was made more than a week ago, not to send it, based on the facts. Not by two people arguing on the internet.

What link do you want? The NOAA charts for the harbor? The specs of the ship on Wikipedia?

HERE YOU GO
http://www.nauticalchartsonline.com/chart/zoom?chart=25670

Some of the approaches in that harbor get down to 30 feet, and there were already charted obstructions, AND many of the buoys are gone/moved. The Coast Guard is working on that with buoy tenders pulled in from as far away as New England. They don't KNOW how the bottom of that channel has changed during the hurricane. There could be anything down there.

http://www.maritime-executive.com/article/recovery-effort-ramps-up-in-puerto-rico

The Comfort is huge; 894 ft long, 105 ft wide with a draft of 33 ft.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USNS_Comfort_(T-AH-20)

None of the cruise ships that are in play for recovery, or even dock there in the regular tourist season, draft more than 26 feet, because it limits (Severely) the number of harbors you can access with the ship.

San Juan, Puerto Rico – Open with restrictions
Daylight Transit Only

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #18)

Fri Sep 29, 2017, 03:29 PM

21. None of that disputes that it can anchor offshore, with smaller boats bringing patients to it.

Even if it can't operate at full capacity, and rocking on the waves outside the harbor is not "fun" as you say, it is still better than having no hospital at all, dying from treatable infections that could readily be treated on the Comfort, even if it is rocking.

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #21)

Fri Sep 29, 2017, 03:42 PM

23. IT IS AN OIL TANKER.

OH MY GOD.

"it is still better than having no hospital at all"


THE KEARSARGE IS A HOSPITAL, WITH HEAVY LIFT AND AMPHIBIOUS ASSAULT AND AIR ASSAULT CAPABILITIES, WITH THE BEST DOCTORS IN THE FLEET.

It is designed FOR this mission, minus killing people and breaking things. It was there before the storm, during the storm, and after the storm, doing what it does best. Doing a mission the Comfort is not suited to.

When I say it is 'not fun' to play doctor on the Comfort while it's at sea, that was actually sarcasm. It materially hampers the ability to do so. FEMA/Navy, etc have been running full tilt boogie for more than a month on disaster relief, across the gulf. Diverting materials and personnel to the Comfort is a mistake in this situation. Those materials could have been moved faster. Those people could have been used sooner. Transported more easily.

It is a politically motivated mistake to utilize that ship in this situation. AT BEST, it should be sent somewhere ELSE with a deep blue water harbor that isn't wrecked, freeing up SOME OTHER asset that could be better used in Puerto Rico.

If you were demanding to know why the Iwo Jima wasn't in Purto Rico, I'd be harder pressed to offer a good reason, and would probably agree with you, aside from the fact that IT is being re-fueled and re-provisioned after hurricane relief in Florida.

If you had a choice between putting supplies and people on the Iwo Jima, or the Comfort and you chose the Comfort in this situation, you'd be making a horrible mistake.

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #23)

Fri Sep 29, 2017, 04:20 PM

29. It is a hospital ship. Trump should have sent it and every other one we had available.

The entire island was devastated by a cat 5 storm, the worst the island had seen in 90 years. Millions of US citizens were left with no power, no food and no hospitals. This was no time to be picky.

Again, chill dude. Trump screwed up in Puerto Rico. Bigly.

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #29)

Fri Sep 29, 2017, 04:25 PM

30. Why?

Why is this particular ship so fucking necessary? Please be specific.


I've listed the reasons the Department of Defense chose not to activate it for this purpose. I've detailed why the Kearsarge and Oak Hill, together, make the addition of the Comfort irrelevant and inefficient. Reasons for which the Navy has been asking to replace the Comfort.

This isn't a game. There are finite resources, and finite manpower and people in desperate need. Faster turnaround on the Iwo Jima would be a material help. The Comfort is not a material help in this particular case.

It's possible to do things, to make a lot of noise and move big things around without helping anyone. Moving things around for the purposes of being seen doing something, anything, was a criticism that came out of analysis of the response to Superstorm Sandy.

We've made this mistake before.

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #30)

Fri Sep 29, 2017, 04:59 PM

35. What part of 3.5 million Americans with no food, power or hospitals do you not understand?

The USNS is a lifesaver. It is disrespectful of the lives of Puerto Ricans to say sending it down there is just "moving big things around."

Face it, Puerto Rico is becoming Trump's Katrina, and it is only going to get worse.

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/features/how-puerto-rico-is-becoming-trumps-katrina-w505523

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #35)

Fri Sep 29, 2017, 05:09 PM

37. It is 'moving big things around' if the big thing isn't able to aid them.

Which brings us full circle to the beginning of this discussion where the Department of Defense sent capable ships (Kearsarge, Oak Hill), where the Comfort can't dock to render aid the Comfort can't deliver.

By the time it actually gets there, the USNS Comfort might actually be able to dock, because the port of San Juan might actually be cleared. A week ago, it wasn't. Resources that weren't yet loaded on it, were going into air force assets and other ships. Some of it went to Mexico while the hurricane was still pounding the island.
http://www.amc.af.mil/News/Article-Display/Article/1321378/travis-c-17-delivers-response-team-to-mexico/

Some of it went to the US Virgin Islands.
http://www.amc.af.mil/News/Article-Display/Article/1324728/jb-charleston-crew-provides-maria-relief-within-hours/


Using the Comfort introduces an unnecessary bottleneck, until the port is cleared for a ship that draws 33 feet of water.


Personally, I think GW's response to Katrina was worse, so far, but there's plenty of time for Trump to actively fuck it up worse, so ... no bet there. It may well become that.

The USNS Comfort couldn't have prevented that outcome.

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #37)

Fri Sep 29, 2017, 05:34 PM

39. The Comfort would aid people.

And sitting outside the dock and outside the harbor would not create a "bottleneck."

You're trying too hard.

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #39)

Fri Sep 29, 2017, 05:53 PM

40. It does create a bottleneck.

When the Comfort was docked in Costa Rica in 2011, it aided 8,300+ people in 11 days. When it had to stand offshore after Katrina/Rita in 2005 it helped less than 1/10th that.

The resources that can be put into Comfort were better used in other ways. It wasn't suited to the task. It may become VERY useful AFTER the port is cleared.

Come on, 1,500 people over 12 days. I just got lectured how '5,000 National Guard Troops is a mealy mouth response'. 5k Guard troops can help a lot more than a ship that takes 12 days to help 1500 (less than actually) people and I had that hand-waved away. 1500 people over 12 days is a rounding error at this point. As you said, 3.5 million victims here.


Put those resources (including PEOPLE who would staff the Comfort) to other use. (as was the plan, per the DOD over the weekend press conferences.)

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #40)

Fri Sep 29, 2017, 06:42 PM

41. Saving 1500 lives is not a "rounding error."

Wow.

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #41)

Fri Sep 29, 2017, 06:57 PM

43. But 5000 national guard in place before the hurricane hit is a "mealy mouthed response".

I really don't know what to think around here anymore. Everyone min/max's the hyperbole for maximum effect. I know you didn't make the 'mealy mouthed' comment, that was yet a different poster disparaging the number of NG troops deployed. But damnit, everyone can't all be correct about how this is being characterized, simultaneously. (Also, I didn't say 1500 lives saved, I said less than 1500 people treated over 12 days. That's not the same thing. But that's not the crux of our disagreement)


Let me put it another way. The Comfort has lots of capacity to help people, when they can get on and off the ship. The Comfort itself has no way to facilitate that.

The Kearsarge has half the raw medical capacity of the Comfort, but it CAN move thousands of people per day because it is a complete end to end logistics beast. Since the Comfort cannot increase logistical capacity, there's no evidence it would be able to help anyone, that the Kearsarge couldn't have helped.


Your scenario of using smaller boats to ferry people to the Comfort is technically possible, though dangerous in all but calm seas, but it's not like there are boats full of people needing medical aid waiting outside the Kearsarge's hull.

Comfort lacks the ability to go get people that need help. Kearsarge can go get them, move them, treat them, put them back or airlift them to the mainland, or transfer them to the Oak Hill, etc. Comfort has a small helipad, Kearsarge can handle V-22's, and bigger stuff.

To staff the Comfort with medical crew means fewer medical people that could be on airlift rescues, on land, on a ship like the Kearsarge, etc.


You do know we're stretched thin right? I have family from Texas staying at my house right now. People from my company are spending next week doing recovery work in Houston. There's not enough manpower to go around, and medical help is HIGHLY constrained and numerically limited.

We can put the doctors who would be on the Comfort in a week, maybe in port, maybe not, on land in Puerto Rico in about 5 hours. That's what Maryland Task Force One is doing.

When this is all done, we need to replace the Mercy and the Comfort. They are simply too constrained. Maybe ok for earthquakes. Nearly useless for hurricanes in the gulf because of the shallow ports.

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #43)

Fri Sep 29, 2017, 07:26 PM

44. The two are not comparable. 5K Natl Guard IS "mealy mouthed."

Wow, so you're defending Trump's inadequate National Guard deployment AND his foot-dragging on the Comfort.



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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #44)

Sat Sep 30, 2017, 12:51 AM

52. Not at all. First of all, the president doesn't activate the national guard in this manner.

There are laws that govern when and how, and in what way. It is not 'defending' trump to point out he is not a king.

And the 5000 or so was just a start, because they live there.

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #52)

Sat Sep 30, 2017, 01:55 AM

56. WRONG. The President does not need to be "king" to activate US troops in emergencies.

Last edited Sat Sep 30, 2017, 02:33 AM - Edit history (1)

And WRONG, the 5,000 do not all live there. Some 2,750 are Puerto Rican National Guard troops. The rest are US troops that our incompetent President pathetically underdeployed for the situation.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2017/09/29/maria-hit-9-days-ago-less-than-half-of-the-puerto-rico-national-guard-is-on-duty/?utm_term=.df64903660fc


You're wrong about the Comfort, you're wrong about the troops. You clearly do not have the facts straight about Trump's inadequate response in Puerto Rico and your willingness to use incorrect facts to defend Trump's inadequate response is revolting.


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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #56)

Sat Sep 30, 2017, 02:29 PM

58. You continued attempt to re-cast pointing out reality as 'defending trump' is noxious and part

of why we can't even have productive conversations here on DU amongst ourselves.

I can find different news articles detailing anywhere from ~2,500 to ~8,000 NG troops. It's a choose-your-own-adventure story.
Yes the president has options to call out the NG, but what was activated in PR was not activated by the President. Again, there are rules, and the President is not a king. When you federalize the NG troops in a given situation, the rules change, and what they are allowed to do changes. See fallout from the 1992 Rodney King riots in LA.

I never once said Trump's response was adequate, I just defined what is within the realm of the President's responsibility, and what is not. There is plenty that he is responsible for that was not done, and now is too late. (Sending the Comfort wasn't one of them)

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #58)

Sat Sep 30, 2017, 06:41 PM

61. You were not "pointing out reality." You wrongly suggested he couldn't call out more NG.

Because he wasn't king. That was not why he didn't call out more NG. He didn't because he is an incompetent racist asshole. And you misstated the composition of the NG and their number, in Trump's favor.

And you implied that because the Comfort could only save 1,000 lives instead of 10,000 that it was not worth sending out. That is outrageous and wrong on so many levels.

If you find our conversation unproductive, you are free to stop replying to me.

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #61)

Sun Oct 1, 2017, 05:32 PM

62. No, that's how you insisted on reading it.

Because you cannot see through any bias whatsoever. I didn't say he can't. I said "the president doesn't activate the national guard in this manner." and then when you questioned it, I gave examples why. I re-iterate;

"When you federalize the NG troops in a given situation, the rules change, and what they are allowed to do changes. See fallout from the 1992 Rodney King riots in LA."


There are LAWS about when, how, and in what manner they are called out. There are laws about what the NG can do, depending on who called them out.

You're not saying anything new or revelatory when you say Trump sucks or he's racist or anything else. We're all on the same page here.

I said the comfort wasn't worth sending because it's not worth STAFFING it and LOADING IT with materials until IT CAN DOCK.
This is not rocket science. I gave you throughput examples between Hurricane Katrina, and a similar disaster in Costa Rica, where it had to stand offshore, versus being able to dock. Staffing the ship, and loading it with supplies means those staff and supplies are no longer available to be moved in other ways. Supplies are finite. Medical staff are finite. They're not sitting in a warehouse waiting to be loaded into the Comfort. They were moved in other ways. (Mostly by aircraft)

There is no circumstance under which you would consider the Comfort treating (not 'saving', I said TREATING) 1000 people over 12 days as adequate or even meaningfully helpful compared to the demand upon the entire response to the disaster. You would not be singing Trump's praises if he'd loaded the ship himself at the first sign of a storm, and lashed himself to the prow, directing it straight into the storm. We're only now getting to the point where that ship can be meaningfully utilized, because the work on clearing the ports, specifically the port of San Juan which is the only one that is useful for this ship, is progressing.


The time you spend loading that ship, and the resources expended to send it, with staff and materials, wasn't useful before. It will be useful later.

The time you spent arguing with me, from your comfortable dry room, with food to eat and resources to spare, you could have spent educating yourself on the public laws governing the use of the National Guard, and how/why it is important. You could have used that time to educate yourself on how logistics work, and why anyone versed in Six Sigma or Lean or any other supply chain management methodology, or even someone versed in actual real world disaster response would laugh at you for tapping that specific resource in this specific scenario.

If you activate external NG and send them in, where do you put them? If you send them before the hurricane, where do you shelter them? If you send them after, what do you feed them? Where do they shit and piss? Where do they sleep? You can actually make these situations worse by sending in bodies before the logistical chain to support it is in place. You actually put MORE strain on the meager resources the victims have, if you do it wrong. We've done it wrong before. Plenty of case studies and post mortems. You can actually provoke trump into making a big show of trying to help, and you know what will happen? FUCKING DISASTER. The playbooks are set and being followed. The materials are already moving. The people are moving according to plans that trump never approved, and will never read. The last goddamn thing you want him to do is to belly in there and decide he's going to make a big public political spectacle out of HELPING, because it will only, at best, LOOK like help. The man couldn't even make a trip to a grocery store and stock his own fridge if his life depended on it. This isn't about trump, and shouldn't become about trump. We need to focus on what is being done, so we know what actually needs to be done.

Have you even given a thought to what a first responder rotating out of Puerto Rico, and finally being able to read the news, read DU would think? Are you CERTAIN your outrage matches the reality on the ground? Granted, there are some areas of Puerto Rico that haven't even been surveyed yet, let alone reached by responders. But generally speaking. How many people have come out of Puerto Rico that are doing the work, will agree entirely with your perception of the situation?

Edit: The USS Wasp is on-site now, doubling the logistical power of the Kearsarge. The re-loaded it and it departed nearby pier to the Comfort two days ago, and it's already working. It took half the time Comfort will need to transit, and it's already working. With the Wasp and Kearsarge in place, that's double the OR's and beds the Comfort is slowly bringing.

Hopefully the port is ready when Comfort finally arrives.

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #62)

Sun Oct 1, 2017, 05:43 PM

63. Instead of spending 9 paragraphs trying to redefine one sentence...

maybe we should go with the obvious reading. Which is the reading I went with.

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #63)

Sun Oct 1, 2017, 06:10 PM

64. It only reads that way if you pretend I said words I didn't say.

If I had meant he CAN'T, I would have said so. He CAN, in certain ways. It has legal and logistical consequences if you do so, and there are case studies from, for instance, the Rodney King riots where it made things worse, not better.


There is a REASON the President of the United States, whomever it happens to be at the time, is not put in direct micromanaging control of these situations.

The moment the NG is federalized for the situation, people like Carmen Yulin Cruz, and Ricardo Rosselló will cease to have any legal control over even the Army/Air national guard who live within Puerto Rico. The NG will begin to behave unilaterally as FEMA is doing so already, and there's PLENTY of criticism of FEMA's choices so far, around fuel rationing and whatnot, already piling up.

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #64)

Sun Oct 1, 2017, 06:18 PM

65. It is you who wants to add words that were not there, 9 paragraphs of them. nt



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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #65)

Sun Oct 1, 2017, 06:50 PM

66. Elaboration isn't adding. You attempted to twist the meaning, not me.

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #66)

Sun Oct 1, 2017, 07:34 PM

67. LOL I didn't "twist" anything.

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #67)

Sun Oct 1, 2017, 08:54 PM

68. You did. My original post is still there in context for everyone to see.

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #68)

Sun Oct 1, 2017, 09:33 PM

69. Everyone can indeed see that you suggested he couldn't do it.

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #69)

Sun Oct 1, 2017, 10:15 PM

70. Doesn't ! Couldn't.

Not doing something because it is a bad idea isn't synonymous with NOT BEING ABLE to do it.

Everyone can also see you tried to mischaracterize '9 paragraphs' since it wasn't 9 paragraphs about this issue. 2 are in relation to federal use of the National Guard. That's it.

"Instead of spending 9 paragraphs trying to redefine one sentence... maybe we should go with the obvious reading. Which is the reading I went with."


Two. Two paragraphs dealt with federalization of the National Guard in any way.
Please be more honest.

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #70)

Sun Oct 1, 2017, 10:27 PM

71. I'm not being "dishonest." You wrongly implied Trump couldn't order more NG.

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #71)

Sun Oct 1, 2017, 10:33 PM

72. You're free to keep saying it, but that's not what the post says.

And I was happy to elaborate immediately when you seemed to be confused by it.

(Looks like the equals sign was removed from my post title, that said "Doesn't != Couldn't"
Your dogged insistence that I 'implied' something when I have clearly not sure seems dishonest.

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #72)

Sun Oct 1, 2017, 10:36 PM

73. I'm not "confused" nor "dishonest." I call 'em as I see 'em.

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #73)

Mon Oct 2, 2017, 10:13 AM

74. Then why did you misconstrue '9 paragraphs'.

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #74)

Mon Oct 2, 2017, 11:17 AM

75. I did not misconstrue your 9 paragraphs. It was obvious why you posted them.

As obvious as your implication that Trump could not have sent more NG.

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #44)

Sat Sep 30, 2017, 06:09 PM

60. Houston got 12K from the TX National Guard

plus another 12K from other states. The greater Houston area population is roughly double that of PR, so yes, 5K NG isn't something Trump should be bragging about.

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #18)

Sat Sep 30, 2017, 12:47 AM

51. The Kearsarge isn't a hospital...it's an amphibious assault ship

Yes, it is uniquely able to respond to humanitarian crises but it is not a hospital. You've said multiple times that the Kearsarge has six operating rooms...it doesn't, unless you were to convert space and loosely call them operating rooms. It does have a fleet surgical team assigned to it and it does have operating capabilities but there's only one general surgeon assigned to the FST, typically, and that's usually the only surgeon on the ship. I would know, I served as the surgeon for FST-6 in 2010 on the USS Kearsarge!

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Response to Docreed2003 (Reply #51)

Sat Sep 30, 2017, 01:09 AM

54. It currently does.

In 2008, it had two. In 2011 it was outfitted with three.

And the ship's medical capabilities are second only to the USNS hospital ships Comfort and Mercy, Ponds said. The Kearsarge can support up to 600 patients while still providing routine care to crew members and embarked troops. Its facilities include four main and two emergency operating rooms, four dental operating rooms, X-ray facilities, a blood bank, laboratories and intensive-care ward facilities.

https://www.dvidshub.net/news/25698/uss-kearsarge-demonstrates-navy-soft-power-capabilities

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #54)

Sat Sep 30, 2017, 01:32 AM

55. But again...

A). Two of those OR's are "emergency use"
B). Who's going to run them and staff them?? To run six ORs at the same time would require 6 surgeons, 6 anesthesia types, 6 OR nurses, 6 scrub techs at a minimum, and that's just the bare minimum of staff, not to mention the equipment and resources needed. Our mass casualty plan, even in situations like this one, was never built on the idea that patients would be operated on in that fashion. Our mass casualty plan consisted of using our best resource, the air support, and getting patients seen and stabilized and sent out...the OR was only used in an absolute must use scenario. In fact, during our mass casualty drills, once I decided to take a patient to the OR, our team was pulled from the exercise for at least an hour, to simulate exactly what would happen during a real world scenario.
C). I'm not sure where they're getting that in 2011 it was outfitted with three ORs because in had three main ORs in 2010, maybe that's referring to the "emergency" ORs. I can't say, but I'll reach out to a buddy of mine that was on the ship in 2011 and find out the answer.
D). The "supporting 600 patients" is the sticky wicket in Ponds' quote...yes, that's theoretically possible once the area below decks where logistical equipment and supplies are stored after they've been off loaded, but you couldn't reach that capacity on arrival...unless you're going to choose to legitimately leave your largest ship in the Amphibious Assault Group intentionally empty while going to a humanitarian crisis, which we both know is not the case.

Anyway, not picking a fight over a nitpick, although it seems others are being quite snarky in this thread. Just wanted to throw in my own 2c and experience. I love that ship dearly, even though it's a completely different crew now.

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Response to Docreed2003 (Reply #55)

Sat Sep 30, 2017, 02:34 PM

59. Frankly, all the Wasp class ships are genius designs. I think they are fantastic.

I think we should build multiple with an eye to civil defense, leave the weapons off, and use them for humanitarian purposes.

It seems that the ship is modular enough internally, or some areas are flexible enough that it can be customized to the role. I expect that's why it is reported as having different amounts at different times, and likely when those numbers are quoted to the media, they sometimes do not make distinction between the 'main' OR's and emergency/contingency areas that can be temporarily used in that capacity.

I also assume, since the Oak Hill doesn't have a lot of beds, and the Kearsarge would be taking over the medical duties, that material is transferring between the two, as far as supplies goes.

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #14)

Fri Sep 29, 2017, 10:16 PM

46. Thank you for your review of our capabilities - very educational.

Appreciate you sharing your knowledge. Amazing ships with amazing capability.

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #14)

Sat Sep 30, 2017, 02:11 AM

57. Thanks for trying.

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #11)

Fri Sep 29, 2017, 11:45 PM

49. It's used in many places where it can't dock. It stands offshore with transport to it.

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Response to SharonAnn (Reply #49)

Sat Sep 30, 2017, 12:54 AM

53. And there is a history of how many many people it can handle when docked versus at anchor.

It's completely ineffective when not docked.

I posted numbers from Katrina/Rita vs another instance where it could dock. It's about 1/10th

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #4)

Mon Oct 2, 2017, 11:30 AM

76. It left VA a few days ago. Article posted on du. I do not know when it will arrive in PR.

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Response to riversedge (Reply #76)

Mon Oct 2, 2017, 11:38 AM

77. Yes, I know. But no one can explain why it took so long for it to leave for PR.

Last I heard it was supposed to arrive Tuesday (tomorrow).

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Response to nitpicker (Original post)

Fri Sep 29, 2017, 05:11 AM

5. Pathetic, the repeated use of the word 'sortie' in this context ... who WROTE this?

Last edited Fri Sep 29, 2017, 02:14 PM - Edit history (3)

A sortie has a very clear association with a 'military offensive', by nature.

EDIT: My bad ... I've just never heard the term used to describe anything aside from 'offensives', and probably most non-military types are in the same boat.

This word choice just rubbed me the wrong way, and I feel like if they were talking about helping out TX or FL, these flights would probably be referred to as 'aid missions' or something without any 'offense' connotation.

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Response to mr_lebowski (Reply #5)

Fri Sep 29, 2017, 07:38 AM

7. oh for pete's sake. "Sortie" can be used to describe any mission.

 

It doesnt have to be an offensive operation. And nobody anywhere is upset over terminology
As Sgt Hulka said, "lighten up, Francis"

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Response to mr_lebowski (Reply #5)

Fri Sep 29, 2017, 08:26 AM

10. Yes they are sorties

When I was in the Navy we did training sorties, resupply sorties, maintenance check sorties, all sorts of sorties.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #10)

Fri Sep 29, 2017, 02:17 PM

16. Pogey bait sorties

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Response to sarisataka (Reply #16)

Fri Sep 29, 2017, 02:55 PM

20. Only when the auto-dog was down. nt

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Response to hack89 (Reply #20)

Fri Sep 29, 2017, 11:32 PM

47. Auto-dog?

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Response to DashOneBravo (Reply #47)

Fri Sep 29, 2017, 11:46 PM

50. Visualize chocolate soft serve ice cream.

Coming out of an ice cream machine.

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Response to sarisataka (Reply #16)

Fri Sep 29, 2017, 11:42 PM

48. I always had pogey bait

I had a senior nco that had nose like a beagle hound. So I kept it in zip locks

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Response to mr_lebowski (Reply #5)

Fri Sep 29, 2017, 12:15 PM

12. Someone who speaks english.

Merriam-Webster:

Definition of sortie
1:a sudden issuing of troops from a defensive position against the enemy
2:one mission or attack by a single plane


Though I do not doubt that colorful metaphors will be used to spin various elements of our response one way or the other as per your last examples there.

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #12)

Fri Sep 29, 2017, 09:14 PM

45. Perhaps the 'mission' part of the definition...

...wasn't included in the "military style" dictionary.

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Response to mr_lebowski (Reply #5)

Fri Sep 29, 2017, 02:21 PM

17. You are correct. It is indeed odd to call rescue flights "sorties."

It is rarely used outside the military context. "Trip" or "flight" seems much more appropriate under these circumstances.

But some folks loves them some he-man military jargon, especially when talking about exotic places. Never mind that this is US territory and these are US citizens.

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #17)

Fri Sep 29, 2017, 02:38 PM

19. Merriam Webster Dictionary.

Merriam-Webster:

Definition of sortie
1:a sudden issuing of troops from a defensive position against the enemy
2:one mission or attack by a single plane

It might be a clue when you see acronyms like NORTHCOM, and the source is the Military Times, that it's not a 'he-man military jargon' thing, rather, an actual media outlet of the United States Military.

Try again.

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #19)

Fri Sep 29, 2017, 03:42 PM

22. Webster's confirms what I am saying.

The most common meaning of the word, which is why it is listed FIRST, is "a sudden issuing of troops from a defensive position against the enemy."

Even the second, less common meaning, is militaristic, referencing an "mission or attack."

I don't need to "try again." You have failed to contradict my point.

Why are you so angry and insistent on defending Trump's horrid response to the disaster in Puerto Rico?

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #22)

Fri Sep 29, 2017, 03:44 PM

24. IT'S A MILITARY NEWS SITE.

Good grief. You're baiting me aren't you?

This has nothing to with trump. He's irrelevant to the issue, outside political functions like dragging his feet on the Jones Act.

Edit: Oh good grief, you can't even spell it right.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merriam-Webster
In 1831, George and Charles Merriam founded the company as G & C Merriam Co. in Springfield, Massachusetts.

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #24)

Fri Sep 29, 2017, 03:59 PM

25. Chill dude. And yes, Trump's incompetence has everything to do with this.

Again with the defense of Trump. Sheesh.

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #25)

Fri Sep 29, 2017, 04:04 PM

26. Play games with someone else.

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #26)

Fri Sep 29, 2017, 04:05 PM

27. YOU'RE the one who followed me to this subthread. nt

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #27)

Fri Sep 29, 2017, 04:10 PM

28. Excuse me, I posted in this subthread before you even showed up.

You can't even get that right? Post 12, me. Post 17, you. That's the start of your and my activity in this subthread.
You were busy being wrong up in post 4 in a totally different thread when I hit this subthread.

Edit: Oh wait, I'm sorry. You're right. I followed you with my TIME MACHINE

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #28)

Fri Sep 29, 2017, 04:26 PM

31. I was responding to Mr Lebowski. You butted in. nt

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #31)

Fri Sep 29, 2017, 04:27 PM

32. Look one post higher in the subthread.

I responded to him as well.

To come full circle, the word usage is not 'odd'. Period.

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #32)

Fri Sep 29, 2017, 04:31 PM

33. I was not responding to you. Yet you felt compelled to attack me.

Odd indeed.

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #33)

Fri Sep 29, 2017, 04:57 PM

34. I responded to post 17 in the manner appropriate to its content.

If 'sortie' (used correctly) is 'odd' then what did you think of NORTHCOM?
It might be odd coming from Mother Jones, but it wasn't odd coming from Military Times.

And Merriam Webster isn't a 'he man military' thing. Definition number 2 in the list isn't 'odd'.

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #34)

Fri Sep 29, 2017, 05:02 PM

36. I was not talking to you, so you were not "responding" to me, you were butting in.

Odd that you can't let this go.

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #36)

Fri Sep 29, 2017, 05:12 PM

38. I can keep hitting reply if you can.

If no one should be responding, even negatively, to other posts that were not addressed directly to them, (you falsely characterizing it as 'following you' when I was already participating here) DU would become a ghost town.

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Response to nitpicker (Original post)

Fri Sep 29, 2017, 06:47 PM

42. Sounds like they need more troops, though.

Weren't there more deployed for NOLA, Katrina?

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Response to nitpicker (Original post)

Mon Oct 2, 2017, 11:59 AM

78. K&R

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