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Fri Jun 17, 2016, 04:30 PM

 

EU support falls after Jo Cox murder

Source: USA Today

LONDON — British support for remaining in the European Union has weakened in the wake of the murder of the pro-EU politician Jo Cox, according to an online research company Friday.

Qriously, a London-based technology start-up that gathers data and intelligence about consumers through mobile phone apps, found that backing among likely voters for Britain's EU membership has dropped to 32% from 40% before her death.

The poll was based on 1,992 British adults surveyed on June 13-16, and then 1,002 on June 17 — the day after Cox was shot and killed in northern England. The start-up claims to have held the first such survey on the topic since the lawmaker's slaying. Most of Qriously’s surveys are done for corporate brands and it has not been previously conducted an EU referendum poll.

Respondents were asked: "Imagine the EU referendum were held today. Would you vote for the U.K. to remain a member of the European Union, or leave the European Union?" They were given three options: "Remain in the EU," "Leave the EU," or "Don't know."

Read more: http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2016/06/17/exclusive-poll-eu-support-falls-after-jo-cox-murder/86031038/

64 replies, 5600 views

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Reply EU support falls after Jo Cox murder (Original post)
Just reading posts Jun 2016 OP
elljay Jun 2016 #1
Saviolo Jun 2016 #2
truebrit71 Jun 2016 #3
elljay Jun 2016 #4
truebrit71 Jun 2016 #5
elljay Jun 2016 #6
JackRiddler Jun 2016 #7
anigbrowl Jun 2016 #10
AntiBank Jun 2016 #11
Helen Borg Jun 2016 #13
AntiBank Jun 2016 #34
pampango Jun 2016 #15
zeemike Jun 2016 #17
pampango Jun 2016 #19
Poincare Jun 2016 #22
elljay Jun 2016 #23
pampango Jun 2016 #28
muriel_volestrangler Jun 2016 #44
zeemike Jun 2016 #31
pampango Jun 2016 #33
zeemike Jun 2016 #36
muriel_volestrangler Jun 2016 #42
zeemike Jun 2016 #52
muriel_volestrangler Jun 2016 #53
zeemike Jun 2016 #54
muriel_volestrangler Jun 2016 #55
zeemike Jun 2016 #57
muriel_volestrangler Jun 2016 #58
zeemike Jun 2016 #60
christx30 Jun 2016 #61
muriel_volestrangler Jun 2016 #62
christx30 Jun 2016 #63
muriel_volestrangler Jun 2016 #64
AntiBank Jun 2016 #35
muriel_volestrangler Jun 2016 #40
AntiBank Jun 2016 #41
muriel_volestrangler Jun 2016 #43
AntiBank Jun 2016 #45
RogueTrooper Jun 2016 #50
pampango Jun 2016 #47
muriel_volestrangler Jun 2016 #18
Night Watchman Jun 2016 #20
SheilaT Jun 2016 #37
elljay Jun 2016 #38
SheilaT Jun 2016 #39
Helen Borg Jun 2016 #8
muriel_volestrangler Jun 2016 #9
PSPS Jun 2016 #12
shenmue Jun 2016 #30
Person 2713 Jun 2016 #51
DAngelo136 Jun 2016 #14
pampango Jun 2016 #16
riderinthestorm Jun 2016 #21
pampango Jun 2016 #24
riderinthestorm Jun 2016 #27
pampango Jun 2016 #32
elljay Jun 2016 #25
ancianita Jun 2016 #49
Igel Jun 2016 #26
riderinthestorm Jun 2016 #29
BlueMTexpat Jun 2016 #46
pampango Jun 2016 #48
alarimer Jun 2016 #56
OnDoutside Jun 2016 #59

Response to Just reading posts (Original post)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 04:38 PM

1. Seems counterintuitive to me

I expected support to go up, in sympathy to Jo Cox. We're looking at the end of the EU.

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Response to elljay (Reply #1)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 04:42 PM

2. Unfortunately

Fear can be a powerful motivator.

That's one of the reasons the GOP is so fond of spreading FUD (Fear Uncertainty Doubt).

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Response to elljay (Reply #1)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 04:42 PM

3. Exactly.

 

I think that is incorrect.

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Response to truebrit71 (Reply #3)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 04:46 PM

4. You think what is incorrect?

Sorry, didn't quite understand what you meant. I'm assuming from your ID that you are/were British and have more insight into this than I do. Will the murder of a Labour MP by a neo-Nazi really push the British public towards the far right? That would be terribly sad.

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Response to elljay (Reply #4)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 04:48 PM

5. No, I think it should turn them AWAY from the xenophobic right....

 

...and make people MORE inclined to stay in, rather than vote to leave which is what the right-wing wants...

Which is why I think the article is incorrect....I don't believe that in light of her murder people would be more inclined to leave than before...

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Response to truebrit71 (Reply #5)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 04:51 PM

6. Got it - thanks!

Let us hope. My family is in the U.S. precisely because of European xenophobia. It is not a pretty thing once it gets going......

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Response to elljay (Reply #1)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 05:14 PM

7. Seems reasonable to think it is NOT related to the Cox murder.

 

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Response to elljay (Reply #1)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 05:22 PM

10. That surprises me too

 

I agree that Brexit would be a death knell for the EU, and as a European that worries me deeply. I regret to say that I can easily envision continental instability and possibly world war within a few years.

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Response to elljay (Reply #1)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 05:25 PM

11. "We're looking at the end of the EU." <<<<< let's truly hope so

 

The Left Case for Brexit

https://www.dissentmagazine.org/online_articles/left-case-brexit


The radical left case for leaving the EU

https://www.opendemocracy.net/can-europe-make-it/michael-theodosiadis-sofia-zisi/radical-left-case-for-leaving-eu-comparative-anal


THE EU: ANTI- SOCIALIST AND ANTI-DEMOCRATIC

https://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/a-155b-THE-EU-ANTI-SOCIALIST-AND-ANTI-DEMOCRATIC#.V2RqFLt96Uk


Brexit is the left-wing choice

http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/politics/brexit-is-the-left-wing-choice



Labour MP Kate Hoey: Why leaving the EU is a left-wing move

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/labour-mp-kate-hoey-why-leaving-the-eu-is-a-left-wing-move-a6687936.html



Exit Left: the Socialist Case for Britain Leaving the EU

http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/03/11/exit-left-the-socialist-case-for-britain-leaving-the-eu/



The left wing case for leaving the EU
Supporters of the EU sneer “Little Englander” at those with a different opinion, but most of the arguments against membership are left-leaning and liberal.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/06/john-king-left-wing-case-leaving-eu

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Response to AntiBank (Reply #11)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 06:17 PM

13. Meaningless propaganda.

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Response to Helen Borg (Reply #13)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 09:54 PM

34. rubbish

 

Your simplistic view of the world is depressingly naive.

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Response to AntiBank (Reply #11)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 06:36 PM

15. The British far-right and our own Trump support Brexit. British unions, our Bernie, Barack and

Last edited Sat Jun 18, 2016, 06:36 AM - Edit history (1)

Hillary oppose it. The far-right on other European countries hopes Brexit succeeds so they can do the same.

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Response to pampango (Reply #15)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 07:36 PM

17. Well from what I have learned about the EU over this debate is

That the EU government is not democratic at all. So those supporting it must not like democracy.
And you would think Fascist would be the ones who wanted it.

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Response to zeemike (Reply #17)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 07:54 PM

19. Fascists and the far-right are ultra-nationalists at heart. The EU goes against that grain and

Last edited Fri Jun 17, 2016, 09:08 PM - Edit history (1)

sacrifices some national sovereignty for more international cooperation. The EU is a liberal project that the right has long despised.

From FDR's last State of the Union address in 1945:

International cooperation on which enduring peace must be based is not a one-way street. Nations like individuals do not always see alike or think alike, and international cooperation and progress are not helped by any Nation assuming that it has a monopoly of wisdom or of virtue.

Perfectionism, no less than isolationism or imperialism or power politics, may obstruct the paths to international peace. Let us not forget that the retreat to isolationism a quarter of a century ago was started not by a direct attack against international cooperation but against the alleged imperfections of the peace.

In our disillusionment after the last war we preferred international anarchy to international cooperation with Nations which did not see and think exactly as we did. We gave up the hope of gradually achieving a better peace because we had not the courage to fulfill our responsibilities in an admittedly imperfect world.

It is our purpose to help the peace-loving peoples of Europe to live together as good neighbors, to recognize their common interests and not to nurse their traditional grievances against one another.

http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/?pid=16595

... the EU government is not democratic at all.

It does have a democracy deficit - of course this does not bother fascists - but it does have an elected parliament and protects workers' rights in all member countries - which is why the unions like it and the right hates it.

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Response to pampango (Reply #19)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 08:54 PM

22. It's not always about hate

Don't you think after 10 years of EU imposed austerity and neo-liberal policies, that the British might want have the control of their currency back. Face it, the way the EU was crafted, it was a neo-liberals wet dream. Balanced budgets all the time, no investment in the future, increased poverty, privatization of vital public services, privatization of the county's natural resources, a whole sale strip mining of the public wealth. Doesn't sound good to me.

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Response to Poincare (Reply #22)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 08:59 PM

23. The U.K. does control its own currency

They still use the pound, not the Euro. The Brexit vote is not about that.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_and_the_euro

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Response to Poincare (Reply #22)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 09:20 PM

28. I didn't say it was about hate. I said fascists are ultra-nationalists who don't care about workers'

rights. They have no reason to support the concept of the EU.

The fact is that the federation of British unions, the UK Labour Party, Obama, Sanders and Clinton all support the UK staying in the EU. I doubt they share your opinion of the how evil the EU is.

Mr. Trump, UKIP and right-wing populists throughout Europe (Marine Le Pen, Geert Wilders and a host of others) agree with you. I doubt any of them oppose the EU because due to its "imposed austerity and neo-liberal policies".

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Response to Poincare (Reply #22)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 04:08 AM

44. The EU did not 'impose austerity' on the UK at all

It was a Tory policy. All that you mention has been, in the UK, Tory policy. What the EU forces on the UK, and the leave voters don't like, is free movement of labour throughout the EU. What the leaders of the Leave campaign don't like about the EU is the increased regulation and human rights.

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Response to pampango (Reply #19)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 09:26 PM

31. An elected parliament with no power at all.

Other totalitarian countries have elected parliament with no power too...and all of them say they protects workers' rights.
The Peoples Republic of China
The Peoples Republic of North Korea
The old Soviet Socialist Republic...all had elected parliaments with no power...and all claim the greater good.

Either you have a democracy...that is government by and for the people... or you don't.
And if I were in the EU I would not like rule by oligarchy...and an appeal to emotionalism would not work on me...and just perhaps this poll shows that the appeal to emotion is not working in the UK.

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Response to zeemike (Reply #31)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 09:41 PM

33. I do not agree that the EU parliament has no power. And the left thinks EU worker protections are

real, not just in words as exists in totalitarian countries.

And if I were in the EU I would not like rule by oligarchy ...

If I were British I would worry that the British oligarchy will be quite happy to see their Conservative government deal with worker rights without any interference from the EU.

... and an appeal to emotionalism would not work on me ...

I think the appeals to racism and xenophobia in the UK are coming from the right just like they are in the US. (FWIW, Trump is a big supporter of Brexit and he is an expert at appealing to emotionalism.) Since you are a liberal I would not expect such appeals to work on you.

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Response to pampango (Reply #33)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 10:42 PM

36. Then why are the British oligarchs for remaining in the EU?

The UK has a democratic government with a parliament that can and do make laws...the EU parliament has no such power.
And this is exactly the kind of government that oligarch want...no opposition from democracy.

And the name calling is an appeal to emotion...telling people that if they don't like a form of government that takes away the power of democracy then it is because they are racist is exactly that.
And I don't know and don't give a shit what Trump thinks on this at all...and I am not guilty of anything by association and neither are those who vote to exit the EU.

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Response to zeemike (Reply #36)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 04:04 AM

42. If "name calling is an appeal to emotion", then don't call elected politicians "the oligarchs"

As for democracy in the EU: the EU parliament does make laws. The most powerful body is the Council of the EU - the elected heads of government, and the elected heads of government departments, from each country. They are the ones who take the important votes for EU direction. Leaving the EU just means that the UK wouldn't take part in those votes, and wouldn't be bound by them. But the leaders of the Leave campaign say they want to have less regulation. They'd take the country to the right. The average EU politician is to the left of the average British one.

It's as if Texas wanted to secede from the USA. They could say "it'll be more democratic - we won't be part of a system that gives Vermont the same number of Senators as Texas, or more weight in the Electoral College per person", but you know that in practice, it would mean a political move to the right for the state.

See reply #40 for a poll on what matters to those voting 'leave'. They are anti-immigrant above all. Control over British laws is a small concern. Of Labour voters, only 6% think an important factor in their vote is "Britain's ability to make its own laws" (p.34, https://www.ipsos-mori.com/Assets/Docs/Polls/pm-16-june-2016-tables.pdf ).

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #42)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 10:03 AM

52. Well Oligarch is closer to the truth

Than racist is when someone opposes a restrictive form of government.

Decision-making at EU level involves various European
institutions, in particular:
X the European Parliament, which represents the
EU’s citizens and is directly elected by them;
X the European Council, which consists of the Heads
of State or Government of the EU Member States;
X the Council, which represents the governments of
the EU Member States;
X the European Commission, which represents the
interests of the EU as a whole.
The European Council defines the general political
direction and priorities of the EU but it does not exercise
legislative functions. Generally, it is the European
Commission that proposes new laws and it is the
European Parliament and Council that adopt them.
The Member States and the Commission then
implement them.

X A regulation is a law that is applicable and binding
in all Member States directly.
It does not need to be
passed into national law by the Member States
although national laws may need to be changed to
avoid conflicting with the regulation.
http://www.gr2014parliament.eu/Portals/6/PDFFILES/NA0113090ENC_002.pdf

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Response to zeemike (Reply #52)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 10:13 AM

53. I'll point this out again: the main reason people voting 'leave' are giving is to stop immigration

This poll, page 36: https://www.ipsos-mori.com/Assets/Docs/Polls/pm-16-june-2016-tables.pdf

52% of 'leave' say "The number of immigrants coming into Britain" is a very important reason for their vote, compared with just 22% saying "Britain's ability to make its own laws". Another 14% say "Impact on public services/housing", and 10% "The cost of EU immigration on Britain's welfare system". The Leave vote is, above all, an anti-immigrant vote, not about "who makes the laws".

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #53)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 10:36 AM

54. And you think it is racist for them to feel that way?

That unlimited emigration is imposed on them by the EU...and they recently said that they will fine any country 250, 000 per immigrant for every one that is not taken in by the country.
And you think people who are struggling in their own country should be happy about it?

The "racism" and "xenophobia" charges are not working any more when people actually are being hurt by the insanity of that policy.
But the elite are never hurt by it...it is a great source of cheep labor and political power.

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Response to zeemike (Reply #54)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 10:56 AM

55. I think the leaders of the Leave campaign are often racist

Take this poster they unveiled on Thursday:



The proposed €250,000 fine was for not taking in refugees (and didn't apply to the UK anyway; but Farage used a picture of those refugees to scare people). No, countries doing their duty of taking in their share of war refugees is not 'insanity'.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #55)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 02:57 PM

57. And you think that poster proves racism.

Well I don't...and I think it cheapens the term by throwing it around like that.

War refugees or economic migrants?...the vast majority are the later.
And the EU is responsible for the drowning death of these migrants by having an open door policy that encourages them to take the risk.
And how is it that these war refugees are mostly young military aged men?

I think the brits are getting tired of it and want to leave...and there is nothing racist about it.

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Response to zeemike (Reply #57)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 03:08 PM

58. War refugees. There is no doubt about it.

And no, you cannot blame the drowning deaths on accepting refugees. That is a morally bankrupt position you are taking. Glad I've got a vote on this, and you haven't.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #58)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 03:33 PM

60. Well Australia had that same problem.

And they solved it by not accepting refugees that took that route. And those that did are not fleeing war.

And I am glad I don't have that vote too.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #55)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 04:34 PM

61. I don't see that poster as racist.

A lot of those countries are at their breaking point. They have admitted millions of new people. Social services in a lot of places is stretched thin. Picture 50 people living in your home with you. It's not, in any way, racist to say you don't want anyone else moving in.
And as far as the poster itself goes? That's what the migrants look like. They aren't going to look like Viserys Targaryan. If the war was going on in Sweden, the poster would look very different.

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Response to christx30 (Reply #61)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 05:05 PM

62. The poster says the UK needs to control its own borders

but those are war refugees, who the UK can already say must stay in the country of first asylum, and for which, under the proposed new rules, the UK also has an opt-out:

But in a boost for David Cameron, prime minister, Britain would be allowed to opt out of the quota system and continue with current rules that allow for expulsions.

“Nothing will be forced on the UK . . . If it wants to continue on the existing system it can,” Frans Timmermans, commission vice-president, said in Brussels as he unveiled the first serious attempts to rewrite the existing “Dublin system” agreed two decades ago.

Under the Dublin rules, asylum seekers must be processed in the first EU country they reach and any that make it any further can be sent back. But that system broke down at the height of the refugee crisis, as hundreds of thousands of refugees, many fleeing war-torn Syria, crossed into Greece before making their way across Europe.
...
The UK carveout was possible because of opt-outs already built into the EU’s treaties for Britain and Ireland that allow both countries to pick and choose when they participate in EU rules on “border checks, asylum and immigration”. Because the new commission plan is legally an enhancement to the existing Dublin rules, the opt-outs are still valid. Mr Timmermans pointed out that Denmark also benefited from special arrangements under the treaties.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/3282746e-11d8-11e6-839f-2922947098f0.html

So the UK already has 'control' over the people in the picture coming to the UK. But Farage used it to stir up fear of dark-skinned people in a mass.

"Picture 50 people living in your home with you."

What the fuck? Seriously, what the fuck? You're just talking bollocks now.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #62)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 05:33 PM

63. But the migrants haven't been staying

in the countries of first asylum. Last summer they were getting to Greece and doing their damndest to get to France and Germany. They were camped out in Calais, trying to sneak through the Chunnel and get to Britain. That's where their camp is, called The Jungle.
When I mentioned the 50 people, I was talking about overcrowding. If you had 50 people living there, and someone asked you to take 20 more, you'd rightly balk at that and refuse.
And as far as using that image, well, everyone has an agenda. This is the image they feel would get more votes to go their way. What image do you think would work best for your side?

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Response to christx30 (Reply #63)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 06:33 PM

64. Yeah, Farage's agenda is stoking up racist fear

The 'Jungle' is a few thousand people in France, whom the UK already bars. Leaving the EU would make no difference to their status at all. The people who would be affected are those working normal jobs, and paying taxes, in the UK. But pictures of the waitress in your local restaurant, or your plumber, and their children, don't play to fear of foreigners, so Farage doesn't put them in a poster.

"If you had 50 people living there, and someone asked you to take 20 more, you'd rightly balk at that and refuse."

This is still nonsense. The UK population has not increased by 40% due to EU migration, nor will it.

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Response to pampango (Reply #15)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 10:10 PM

35. simply not true, vast swathes of the left and far left are also anti EU

 

it is foundational to the platform of the Vänsterpartiet (Left Party) that I am a member of here in Sweden. Massive amounts of the right and centre right support the EU. It's absolutely not a cut and dried left v right binary issue.

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Response to AntiBank (Reply #35)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 03:46 AM

40. 'Vast swathes'? No. A few.

Page 6 of this: https://www.icmunlimited.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/13-Jun.pdf

proportion voting 'leave' by party they voted for in 2015:
UKIP 95%
Con 51%
Lab 37%
Lib Dem 25%
Green 18%
Other 46%

The TUC supports remain: https://www.tuc.org.uk/EUref

And the main reason people voting 'leave' are giving is to stop immigration. This poll, page 36: https://www.ipsos-mori.com/Assets/Docs/Polls/pm-16-june-2016-tables.pdf

52% of 'leave' say "The number of immigrants coming into Britain" is a very important reason for their vote, compared with just 22% saying "Britain's ability to make its own laws". Another 14% say "Impact on public services/housing", and 10% "The cost of EU immigration on Britain's welfare system". The Leave vote is, above all, an anti-immigrant vote. That's why it is a left v. right issue.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #40)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 03:58 AM

41. I am talking about the EU as a whole

 

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Response to AntiBank (Reply #41)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 04:05 AM

43. The referendum is only in the UK

so it's the UK position that is relevant here.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #43)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 05:38 AM

45. if you look at the sui generis of my comments you will see I was

 

responding to someone saying this was perhaps the beginning of the end of the EU. I hope it is.

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Response to AntiBank (Reply #45)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 08:13 AM

50. But you replied to a comment about a UK polling figures

it's a fair assumption to make that that is what you were referring too.

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Response to AntiBank (Reply #35)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 06:57 AM

47. A sliver of the far left (~6% in Sweden's 2014 election) agree with 'vast swathes' of the far-right

in opposition to the EU. It is not unusual for the far left and far right to agree on certain policies, just as it is not unusual for the center left and center right to agree at times.

Opposition to the EU is 'foundational' to the existence of the far-right (the Sweden Democrats - who received 13% of the vote in 2014 - being one example) throughout Europe. Much more of the left and far-left support the EU than oppose it. The opposite is true of the right and far-right.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left_Party_(Sweden)

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Response to AntiBank (Reply #11)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 07:50 PM

18. Quite funny to see Gisela Stuart claiming she wants Labour to be 'radical'

Since she's the most neoconservative Labour MP there is. She been a part of the Henry Jackson Society, the British equivalent of the PNAC, from its start.

Indeed, the Society's list of international patrons reads like a 'Who's Who' of American right-wing hawks. Stand-out names include Michael Chertoff, former US homeland security secretary; Carl Gershman, president of the National Endowment for Democracy (NED) – the notorious Reagan administration-founded, Congressional funded 'NGO' specialising in providing funds on behalf of "a very particular form of low-intensity democracy chained to pro-market economics" to support "handpicked pro-market allies"; Bruce Jackson, foreign policy adviser to Senator John McCain during his 2008 presidential candidacy; Robert Kagan, foreign policy adviser to President Obama's then secretary of state Hillary Clinton and co-founder of the Project for the New American Century (PNAC) – the now defunct think-tank closely linked to senior Bush administration officials calling for the military occupation of the Gulf as a stepping stone to global US military hegemony; William Kristol, founding editor of Murdoch-founded neocon rag The Weekly Standard and PNAC co-founder with Kagan; General Jack Sheehan, former NATO Supreme Allied Commander Atlantic; Richard Perle, PNAC signatory and chairman of the Pentagon's Defense Policy Board until 2003; James Woolsey, former CIA director and current Vice President at Booz Allen Hamilton – the same giant US defence contractor that employed NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden, and which runs the US Army's war games on impacts of climate, energy and economic crises for homeland security.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/earth-insight/2014/may/07/henry-jackson-society-neocon-militarism-mideast-oil-gas-energy

Someone to the right of Tony Blair can't give a credible call for Labour to return to its 'radical roots'.

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Response to elljay (Reply #1)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 08:24 PM

20. Two words: Yitzhak Rabin

 

A year-and-a-half after his murder, Israel elected Netanyahu to his first term.

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Response to elljay (Reply #1)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 11:46 PM

37. If Britain leaves the EU, it will not mean the end of the EU.

 

It will mean that Britain will wind up on the outside looking in, and may someday petition to be readmitted.

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Response to SheilaT (Reply #37)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 12:42 AM

38. From what I have been reading

it will give license to the nationalists in other countries who also want to exit the EU. It may not be fatal itself, but it could put the union on the path to its end.

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Response to elljay (Reply #38)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 02:24 AM

39. And when Greece hit its crisis -- exacerbated by enforced austerity --

 

there were all sorts of experts who predicted Greece would drop the Euro like a hot potato and resume its own currency. Of course, none of those experts seemed to give even the slightest thought to the practical difficulties of the changeover: printing new notes, minting new coins, getting them all distributed, figuring out what the exchange rate would be, and adjusting everyone's bank accounts commensurately.

I recall how tricky and long-planned the switch to the Euro was. It took years to implement, although the fact that so many countries were involved were part of the complications. For one country to pull out would be somewhat easier, although the logistics would still be enormous and would take quite a while to implement.

Overall, countries benefit more from being inside the EU than they would from leaving. Keep in mind that the EU's foundations go back nearly sixty years, starting with the Common Market, which became the European Economic Community, then the EU. There was the Inner Six and the Outer Seven. And so on.

More to the point, countries have wanted in to that group since the beginning, and while it may very well be that Great Britain will leave, it won't be a fatal blow to the EU.

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Response to Just reading posts (Original post)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 05:16 PM

8. Makes no sense whatsoever.

And probably incorrect.

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Response to Just reading posts (Original post)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 05:18 PM

9. Not sure how useful a poll from a company that hasn't done a referendum poll before is

Even if they have a decent reputation for corporate brand polls (I've no idea; I've never heard of them before), that doesn't mean they've got good enough models to balance things like likelihood to vote, age and class, and so on. What gives believable results for marketing surveys for phone app users doesn't necessarily translate to reliable data for nationwide voting.

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Response to Just reading posts (Original post)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 06:01 PM

12. ... says a startup "polling" outfit that polls people via "apps." Geesh.

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Response to PSPS (Reply #12)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 09:25 PM

30. Yep. Probably crap

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Response to PSPS (Reply #12)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 09:43 AM

51. Exactly why I am not rec ing

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Response to Just reading posts (Original post)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 06:34 PM

14. I'm confused...

Britain wants to leave the EU, but not so long ago wanted Scotland to stay in the UK?

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Response to DAngelo136 (Reply #14)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 06:42 PM

16. And if Brexit succeeds Scottish voters (who are quite liberal) may push again for independence so

that a newly independent Scotland could leave the UK and join the EU.

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Response to Just reading posts (Original post)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 08:43 PM

21. I wonder if xenophobia plays a role here. The UK doesn't want the migrants

 

But every EU member is mandated to take some number.

With Jo Cox being murdered by a radicalized Muslim, is this UK xenophobia underlying the shift in support?

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Response to riderinthestorm (Reply #21)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 09:03 PM

24. "With Jo Cox being murdered by a radicalized Muslim". That is not who killed her. It was a neo-Nazi

white guy who apparently supported Britain First - an anti-Muslim organization.

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Response to pampango (Reply #24)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 09:20 PM

27. Thanks for the clarification. I've had a family emergency and haven't kept up

 

Still though, my.point stands. If she was murdered by a zealous xenophobic bigot, it still fits the narrative.

(And I should get off DU and start reading the news. thanks pampango for the gentle correction).

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Response to riderinthestorm (Reply #27)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 09:34 PM

32. Life gets in the way of DU sometimes. Hope the emergency worked out alright.

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Response to riderinthestorm (Reply #21)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 09:14 PM

25. That seems to be a large part of it

and, frankly, it is understandable. The flow of migrants and refugees is really overwhelming. It is easy for us to say that the moral thing to do is to feed and clothe the needy, but the people already living there who are hungry and needy see more competition for scarce resources. Unfortunately, I see the right demanding a stop to migration and the left demanding all refugees be cared for. I don't see much reasonable conversation about whether it is really possible for the First World countries to take in each and every person who wants to leave a poor, war-torn, non-democratic country. Europe has come out of centuries of nationalistic and religious wars and has achieved relative peace by having countries that largely share language, culture and religion within the larger EU. Note that the countries that have different cultural groups (e.g. Belgium,Spain, and not that long ago Yugoslavia) are the ones having problems. Is it really possible for a hypothetical country of 10 million to take in 3 million refugees from a very different culture, religion, political belief system without destabilizing their country? I don't pretend to have the answer but would like to have the discussion.

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Response to elljay (Reply #25)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 07:52 AM

49. Thank you. Yours is a fair summary of people's frustrations with taking immigrants in large numbers.

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Response to riderinthestorm (Reply #21)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 09:16 PM

26. I really don't think Cox's killer was a Muslim.

Radicalized or not.

"White nationalist" is how he's usually billed. And unbalanced, his lack of mental equilibrium being of fairly long standing.

Timms' murder a few years back was by a radicalized Muslim.

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Response to Igel (Reply #26)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 09:22 PM

29. Yes, that's what I was remembering.

 

I mispoke and thank you for the correction.

My point though @ the xenophobia stands either way imo.

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Response to Just reading posts (Original post)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 06:32 AM

46. I would take this poll with a grain

of salt. Not only is the result counter-intuitive, but the company generally does corporate consumer surveys.

Most of Qriously’s surveys are done for corporate brands and it has not been previously conducted an EU referendum poll.

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Response to Just reading posts (Original post)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 07:43 AM

48. Guardian: Jo Cox murder suspect tells court his name is 'death to traitors, freedom for Britain'

Thomas Mair has given his name as “death to traitors, freedom for Britain” during his appearance in court charged with the murder of Labour MP Jo Cox.

Lady Lawrence warned that a message of hatred against foreigners or people with different religions had been getting louder in the UK and US, citing the Republican presidential candidate, Donald Trump. She criticised comments by Boris Johnson about Obama’s ancestry and said a poster unveiled by Nigel Farage on Thursday was reminiscent of Nazi propaganda.

In the light of the killing, some politicians have questioned the tone of the referendum debate. Writing in the Guardian, Gordon Brown said: “Unless we strive for a culture of respect to replace a culture which does too little to challenge prejudice, we will be learning nothing from what happened to Jo.”

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/18/thomas-mair-charged-with-of-mp-jo-cox

The inflammatory rhetoric from the right about immigration and Brexit seems to have a 'mentally unstable' white nationalist into a politically-motivated killer.

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Response to Just reading posts (Original post)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 11:33 AM

56. This makes no sense.

The "leave" side is associated with racists and murderers; who would want to be associated with those cretins?

They have that much in common in Trump supporters; they are fucking assholes. Reason enough to vote against Trump and Brexit.

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Response to Just reading posts (Original post)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 03:32 PM

59. I wouldn't put too much faith in this poll, probably rogue, and from a company with no track record.

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