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Omaha Steve

(99,097 posts)
Thu Aug 13, 2015, 01:01 PM Aug 2015

PETA asks US government to investigate SeaWorld Orlando

Source: AP

By MIKE SCHNEIDER

ORLANDO, Fla. (AP) — Animal rights group PETA is asking federal officials to investigate SeaWorld Orlando after a veterinarian says she observed violations of the Animal Welfare Act on a recent visit.

PETA veterinarian Heather Rally said Thursday that she saw dolphins with skin abnormalities, unsupervised contact between the public and dolphins and orcas with dental trauma and rake marks.

Rally visited the Orlando park in June.

PETA officials asked the U.S. Department of Agriculture to send inspectors to the park to investigate. PETA has made similar requests about SeaWorld's two other parks in San Antonio and San Diego.

FULL story at link.

Read more: http://bigstory.ap.org/article/01d0405116fa4b349281ef526187be72/peta-asks-us-government-investigate-seaworld-orlando

73 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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PETA asks US government to investigate SeaWorld Orlando (Original Post) Omaha Steve Aug 2015 OP
Of course they did. Dr Hobbitstein Aug 2015 #1
I like to pretend views I don't hold are propaganda too. LanternWaste Aug 2015 #2
You sure like to pretend alot. Dr Hobbitstein Aug 2015 #3
Blackfish was based on fact. Sea world does keep Orcas in tiny enclosures for life. Sunlei Aug 2015 #5
Former trainers have spoken out against Blackfish. Dr Hobbitstein Aug 2015 #6
'former trainers' always defend their cruel 'training', always. go ahead and side with 'Sea World' Sunlei Aug 2015 #7
Thank You ciaobaby Aug 2015 #8
A lot of Corps, spend a bunch of money to attack all animal rights, environmental groups Sunlei Aug 2015 #10
Your obvious appeal to emotion fallacy doesn't do your argument much good Major Nikon Aug 2015 #11
Whales and dolphins don't need training chernabog Aug 2015 #12
Tangential to whether or not PETA is full of shit Major Nikon Aug 2015 #15
Why are you bringing up PETA? chernabog Aug 2015 #16
Because the thread is about PETA? Dr Hobbitstein Aug 2015 #17
His reply had nothing to do with my post chernabog Aug 2015 #18
You stole my line! Major Nikon Aug 2015 #20
You posted this link: chernabog Aug 2015 #24
Your reply had nothing to do with this thread Dr Hobbitstein Aug 2015 #21
Anyone who thinks PETA has any credibility should ask them why they operate a pet death camp Major Nikon Aug 2015 #22
Yup. nt Dr Hobbitstein Aug 2015 #23
fine. do the research. watch blackfish restorefreedom Aug 2015 #38
Which has nothing to do with whether or not PETA is full of shit Major Nikon Aug 2015 #46
peta has made big differences for animals restorefreedom Aug 2015 #47
That's one way to look at it Major Nikon Aug 2015 #48
they have often provided factual info restorefreedom Aug 2015 #49
More often than not they simply sling bullshit Major Nikon Aug 2015 #51
yes. see 50 restorefreedom Aug 2015 #53
"do the research, watch blackfish" Dr Hobbitstein Aug 2015 #57
Do you know how many animals are put down every year? Beaverhausen Aug 2015 #39
I know how many animals PETA puts down every year Major Nikon Aug 2015 #42
i sort of restorefreedom Aug 2015 #52
i do know how many restorefreedom Aug 2015 #50
first off it was wrong to even use Petas name to tar the movie. your one trainer 'story' Sunlei Aug 2015 #13
The filmmakers had no problems using her as an "expert" Major Nikon Aug 2015 #19
I do not agree with you about anything. Sunlei Aug 2015 #26
I should hope you would at least agree with facts Major Nikon Aug 2015 #37
to the point of, you're my first ignore on DU Sunlei Aug 2015 #41
A silver lining! Major Nikon Aug 2015 #44
PETA funded the movie. Dr Hobbitstein Aug 2015 #58
Post removed Post removed Aug 2015 #56
Give it a rest chernabog Aug 2015 #9
sounds like working in a cubicle HFRN Aug 2015 #54
Why are you bringing up Blackfish? chernabog Aug 2015 #25
Because PETA funded it Dr Hobbitstein Aug 2015 #29
Do you think intelligent beings chernabog Aug 2015 #30
You realize those same intelligent beings Dr Hobbitstein Aug 2015 #31
Are you serious? chernabog Aug 2015 #32
Do they also have their babies taken away from them in the wild? Beaverhausen Aug 2015 #45
Upvote Bunkalup Aug 2015 #59
must be bad violations. Our Gov uses the 'Animal Welfare Act' rules and they are decades old regs. Sunlei Aug 2015 #4
... Major Nikon Aug 2015 #14
so what is aza minimum 'cage' size for Orcas? Sunlei Aug 2015 #27
You said... Major Nikon Aug 2015 #35
no you didn't aza is old school they use the gov. animal welfare regs. its 48 feet x 48 feet an orca Sunlei Aug 2015 #36
I'll repeat what you said again for the cheap seats.... Major Nikon Aug 2015 #43
What for? HassleCat Aug 2015 #28
I agree that economically is the best way to end the cruelty. hamsterjill Aug 2015 #33
Sea World China business is booming, miles of hotels for family fun.2014 they went international Sunlei Aug 2015 #40
get ready for a new wave of stuff from Richard Berman MisterP Aug 2015 #34
there was a baby who had been taken away restorefreedom Aug 2015 #55
I'm not sure how this is relevant to Sea World Major Nikon Aug 2015 #60
its not misinfo. has nothing to do with taking them from the wild. its when they breed them restorefreedom Aug 2015 #61
That account came from a guy who was fired from Sea World Major Nikon Aug 2015 #62
i saw footage of the sperm "collection" restorefreedom Aug 2015 #63
It's the same procedure used for all sorts of animals which undergo artificial insemination Major Nikon Aug 2015 #64
and if humans did not keep animals in captivity restorefreedom Aug 2015 #65
Demonstrably untrue Major Nikon Aug 2015 #66
spend some time with animals restorefreedom Aug 2015 #67
I was raised on a farm Major Nikon Aug 2015 #68
it was a documentary, not a prop film. restorefreedom Aug 2015 #69
So you were raised in a place that chernabog Aug 2015 #70
Self-righteous much? Major Nikon Aug 2015 #71
Caring about what happens to animals chernabog Aug 2015 #72
True Major Nikon Aug 2015 #73
 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
2. I like to pretend views I don't hold are propaganda too.
Thu Aug 13, 2015, 01:12 PM
Aug 2015

I like to pretend views I don't hold are propaganda too. Ethically convenient and mentally simplistic. I also like to pretend I know people involved with Sea World and that their word is above reproach.

 

Dr Hobbitstein

(6,568 posts)
3. You sure like to pretend alot.
Thu Aug 13, 2015, 01:19 PM
Aug 2015

You should try reality. It's a little boring, but it's much better than pretend.

ETA:
prop·a·gan·da
ˌpräpəˈɡandə/
noun
noun: propaganda; noun: Propaganda

derogatory
information, especially of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote or publicize a particular political cause or point of view.

Sunlei

(22,651 posts)
5. Blackfish was based on fact. Sea world does keep Orcas in tiny enclosures for life.
Thu Aug 13, 2015, 01:44 PM
Aug 2015

They do 'train' using dark tiny enclosures and withhold food to force 'compliance'.

A 'training' technique that may work with most animals but isn't right to use at all.

 

Dr Hobbitstein

(6,568 posts)
6. Former trainers have spoken out against Blackfish.
Thu Aug 13, 2015, 01:48 PM
Aug 2015

And said that is was NOT based on fact. It was heavily and deceptively edited to imply a false narrative. Just like the ACORN videos, and the Planned Parenthood videos. It was made by PETA activists, and is biased to fit their views. I side with Sea World.

Sunlei

(22,651 posts)
7. 'former trainers' always defend their cruel 'training', always. go ahead and side with 'Sea World'
Thu Aug 13, 2015, 01:54 PM
Aug 2015

Go lay in a bathtub for a couple years and see how you feel.

 

ciaobaby

(1,000 posts)
8. Thank You
Thu Aug 13, 2015, 02:12 PM
Aug 2015

Well said - I just don't understand Peta haters on this site.
Any one with half a brain could see those animals, that belong in the ocean, are suffering in the Sea World bathtub environment.

Sunlei

(22,651 posts)
10. A lot of Corps, spend a bunch of money to attack all animal rights, environmental groups
Thu Aug 13, 2015, 02:21 PM
Aug 2015

groups like Peta, The HSUS, science and scientists because those groups expose their cruelty or their ruining of land/water and that cuts into profits.

Major Nikon

(36,814 posts)
11. Your obvious appeal to emotion fallacy doesn't do your argument much good
Thu Aug 13, 2015, 02:23 PM
Aug 2015

Furthermore you simply employ the same silly tactic used by PETA which is to pretend that humans and all other animals desire the exact same things.

If the choice is between PETA and Sea World, the obvious choice is Sea World. PETA unapologetically lies and manipulates people to further their agenda. That choice doesn't mean one is for using animals for this type of exhibition, and it's a false dichotomy (yet another fallacy) to pretend as much.

http://micechat.com/53915-blackfish-exposed/

 

chernabog

(480 posts)
16. Why are you bringing up PETA?
Thu Aug 13, 2015, 02:38 PM
Aug 2015

anyone can see these intelligent creatures have a shitty life at Sea World.

 

chernabog

(480 posts)
18. His reply had nothing to do with my post
Thu Aug 13, 2015, 02:44 PM
Aug 2015

I never mentioned PETA. But he though he was making a witty comment or something.

 

chernabog

(480 posts)
24. You posted this link:
Thu Aug 13, 2015, 02:56 PM
Aug 2015
http://micechat.com/53915-blackfish-exposed/

It's about a sea world trainer. The inherent problem with seaworld is that they are training intelligent creatures to perform tricks to make a profit. I said whales and dolphins don't need training, how is that hard to follow?

restorefreedom

(12,655 posts)
38. fine. do the research. watch blackfish
Thu Aug 13, 2015, 06:48 PM
Aug 2015

and make up your mind absent peta's influence.

sea world is from the dark ages and needs to be shut down. period.

Major Nikon

(36,814 posts)
46. Which has nothing to do with whether or not PETA is full of shit
Thu Aug 13, 2015, 07:12 PM
Aug 2015

I don't go to Seaworld. I've never been. I have no desire to go. I could care less if they dry up and blow away. Regardless of what your opinions of Seaworld are, it doesn't mean PETA isn't full of shit.

They already tried this once before and the USDA concluded they were full of shit.

There's no real reason to suspect the results won't be the same this time around, assuming the USDA even decides to go down that rabbit hole again.

restorefreedom

(12,655 posts)
47. peta has made big differences for animals
Thu Aug 13, 2015, 07:29 PM
Aug 2015

on factory farms, in laboratories, and in places like sea world. I don't always agree with their tactics, and I think it is loathsome that they put down over 90% of the companion animals that come to their shelters.

sea world is an abomination and they are full of liars and animal abusers. And they need to be shut down. Just because some of the people against them are from Peta, doesn't mean the cause is unjust.

Major Nikon

(36,814 posts)
48. That's one way to look at it
Thu Aug 13, 2015, 07:33 PM
Aug 2015

Another way is to point out their bullshit is counterproductive to that effort. When you have to rely on propaganda, eventually people figure it out and divorce themselves from the entire effort. PETA gives a bad name to animal welfare because they are loathsome.

restorefreedom

(12,655 posts)
49. they have often provided factual info
Thu Aug 13, 2015, 07:39 PM
Aug 2015

it's how they been able to make such progress against researchers experimenting on animals and laboratories. They actually went and did the foia's and got the info. about abuse happening in laboratories. That's how they fought it with facts.

and just a point of info, as most people outside of the animal rights and welfare communities don't know the difference or even that there is a difference, but Peta is not for welfare. They are pro animal rights. They are an abolitionist group that feels that animal should not be eaten, worn, experimented on or used in entertainment in anyway shape or form. welfareists think it's OK to use animals for certain purposes as long as we treat them well. abolitionists do not. I'm only mentioning it because it might come up in a future discussion, and it's helpful to know the difference.

Major Nikon

(36,814 posts)
51. More often than not they simply sling bullshit
Thu Aug 13, 2015, 07:46 PM
Aug 2015

They called for an investigation into Seaworld once before and the investigation concluded they did nothing wrong. In the mean time they promote the "fact" that they are slinging bullshit.

PETA can't simultaneously claim they are "pro animal rights" and run a death camp for pets, at least not legitimately.

 

Dr Hobbitstein

(6,568 posts)
57. "do the research, watch blackfish"
Thu Aug 13, 2015, 08:22 PM
Aug 2015

That's the problem. Watching Blackfish isn't "doing the research". It's watching a heavily biased piece of propaganda. If you can come at EVERYTHING with an open mind, and not accept the film as gospel before reading the rebuttals, you might just be on to something.

Beaverhausen

(24,467 posts)
39. Do you know how many animals are put down every year?
Thu Aug 13, 2015, 06:58 PM
Aug 2015

Do you think only PETA does this? There are simply not enough homes for them all.

27 Million is the answer
https://www.aspca.org/about-us/faq/pet-statistics


Major Nikon

(36,814 posts)
42. I know how many animals PETA puts down every year
Thu Aug 13, 2015, 07:06 PM
Aug 2015

...and I can compare those to other humane organizations which somehow manage to place 90-95% of the pets they take in on far lower budgets than PETA has.

90% of all animals they take in are executed within 24 hours. They have no visitation hours. It's a death camp for pets. People drop them off thinking PETA will find a home for them and they kill them pretty much immediately and throw them in the dumpster.

So why is PETA running a death camp for pets?

restorefreedom

(12,655 posts)
52. i sort of
Thu Aug 13, 2015, 07:46 PM
Aug 2015

referenced it at the end of comment 50. I didn't realize you were writing almost the same thing as me at about the same time!

restorefreedom

(12,655 posts)
50. i do know how many
Thu Aug 13, 2015, 07:45 PM
Aug 2015

approximately 4 million per year healthy adoptable animals are killed in shelters. I work with both kill and non-kill facilities, and I'm not going argue the fact that there needs to be a shift in attitude about spay neuter, pet stores where people can still purchase animals, and the notion that animals are disposable when something gets in the way like a vacation or a new sofa. But peta has an abysmal record in their shelters, worse than even some of the highest kill shelters. I have worked with people getting animals out of New York City, and even their record isn't as bad, and their record is pretty atrocious as well. But yes, it's definitely a serious issue. not trying to slam peta, but this is one issue where I'm not on board with their policy. They do a lot of good work, but they have come out and said that they don't even think people should have companion animals and that they'd rather see a society where companion animals are not kept by humans. they're great with farm animal issues, and laboratory animal issues, but I think they need to work on their companion animal policies and practices.

Sunlei

(22,651 posts)
13. first off it was wrong to even use Petas name to tar the movie. your one trainer 'story'
Thu Aug 13, 2015, 02:29 PM
Aug 2015

uses an outdated 'trainer' , people no longer can ride on, cuddle and swim with orcas like your Ms. 'expert trainer' did.

Major Nikon

(36,814 posts)
19. The filmmakers had no problems using her as an "expert"
Thu Aug 13, 2015, 02:45 PM
Aug 2015

...albeit after they mislead her about their intentions and highly edited her statements.

I wonder if you hold Samantha Berg to the same "outdated" standard.

Probably not since the film misleadingly portrayed her as a recent employee when she hadn't worked for Seaworld in 10 years prior to the movie and never conducted any training of the whale in question and hardly worked with Orcas at all.

Response to Major Nikon (Reply #11)

 

chernabog

(480 posts)
9. Give it a rest
Thu Aug 13, 2015, 02:20 PM
Aug 2015

Forget the film. The animals are still held in small spaces and forced to be trained and perform. This is the problem - whales don't need to be trained for anything!

 

HFRN

(1,469 posts)
54. sounds like working in a cubicle
Thu Aug 13, 2015, 07:52 PM
Aug 2015

when you really think about it

'hey do 'train' using dark tiny enclosures and withhold food to force 'compliance'. '

 

Dr Hobbitstein

(6,568 posts)
29. Because PETA funded it
Thu Aug 13, 2015, 03:12 PM
Aug 2015

to persuade public opinion about Sea World. Now that they've succeeded, PETA is trying to get the govt to inspect Sea World. It's a wonderful bullying tactic, right out of James O'Keefe's playbook.

Why are you replying to this comment now after you've already replied to my comments made after this? Are you trying to keep an argument going?

 

chernabog

(480 posts)
30. Do you think intelligent beings
Thu Aug 13, 2015, 03:17 PM
Aug 2015

should be bred, trained, and forced to perform tricks in order to make a profit?

Yes or no?
There's no argument, that's just a fact as to what SeaWorld does.

Let's see if you actually respond.

 

Dr Hobbitstein

(6,568 posts)
31. You realize those same intelligent beings
Thu Aug 13, 2015, 03:24 PM
Aug 2015

do tricks in the wild. As long as they are not being abused (and I haven't seen an example of that, no matter what PETA says), then I am A-OK for it.

But hey, you've proved that non-intelligent beings can do tricks as well.

Beaverhausen

(24,467 posts)
45. Do they also have their babies taken away from them in the wild?
Thu Aug 13, 2015, 07:09 PM
Aug 2015

Whales in captivity is simply wrong.

Teaching children that these wonderful, social creatures are happy doing tricks and living their lives in a cage is unthinkable.

Sunlei

(22,651 posts)
4. must be bad violations. Our Gov uses the 'Animal Welfare Act' rules and they are decades old regs.
Thu Aug 13, 2015, 01:37 PM
Aug 2015

Sea World could never pass the modern day animal welfare accreditation status the best zoos and humane orgs use.

Major Nikon

(36,814 posts)
14. ...
Thu Aug 13, 2015, 02:32 PM
Aug 2015
List of Accredited Zoos and Aquariums

SeaWorld Orlando, Fla.
Accredited through March 2020

SeaWorld San Antonio, Texas
Accredited through September 2016

SeaWorld San Diego, Calif.
Accredited through March 2020

http://www.aza.org/current-accreditation-list/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_Zoos_and_Aquariums

http://www.ammpa.org/ourmembers.html

Major Nikon

(36,814 posts)
35. You said...
Thu Aug 13, 2015, 06:45 PM
Aug 2015

"Sea World could never pass the modern day animal welfare accreditation status the best zoos and humane orgs use"

I just proved you wrong. Are you just going to ignore that and keep throwing shit against the wall in hopes that something sticks?

Sunlei

(22,651 posts)
36. no you didn't aza is old school they use the gov. animal welfare regs. its 48 feet x 48 feet an orca
Thu Aug 13, 2015, 06:47 PM
Aug 2015

can live in that box for life.

Major Nikon

(36,814 posts)
43. I'll repeat what you said again for the cheap seats....
Thu Aug 13, 2015, 07:06 PM
Aug 2015

"Sea World could never pass the modern day animal welfare accreditation status the best zoos and humane orgs use"

The best zoos and aquariums use AZA. Here's the list in which you will find the best zoos and aquariums which use the oldest and most respected accreditation service. All the biggest and best US aquariums listed by the conservation institute are on this list.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_AZA_member_zoos_and_aquaria

If you want to keep pretending I didn't prove you wrong, be my guest, but at this point you seem to be venturing a bit farther into absurdity than I care to go.

Cheers!

 

HassleCat

(6,409 posts)
28. What for?
Thu Aug 13, 2015, 03:09 PM
Aug 2015

To give Sea World a hard time? What we need to do is stop going there until they release their whales and dolphins. A federal inspection will not accomplish anything. The idea of keeping whales and dolphins captive and teaching them tricks is no longer acceptable, but it will require a public rebellion to convince Sea World of that. They will give up when they start losing money. Conversely, they will never give up as long as the public is willing to pay money to see the whales jump through hoops.

hamsterjill

(15,214 posts)
33. I agree that economically is the best way to end the cruelty.
Thu Aug 13, 2015, 04:22 PM
Aug 2015

I won't set foot in any Sea World. Won't spend a dime there.

Sea World is undeniably already suffering because of the positive impact of Blackfish. The attendance numbers are way down, and Sea World has been forced to spend massive amounts on a rehabilitation campaign, money they could have spent to better the whales and dolphin's habitats, so that tells you where their true intentions lie.






Sunlei

(22,651 posts)
40. Sea World China business is booming, miles of hotels for family fun.2014 they went international
Thu Aug 13, 2015, 07:01 PM
Aug 2015
2014 SeaWorld news release) “Turning to our international efforts, we continue to make significant progress in our plans to expand our theme parks outside the U.S.

We recently signed a Letter of Intent with Village Roadshow Theme Parks, a division of Village Roadshow Limited, a leading international entertainment and media company, to co-develop theme parks in Pan-Asia [note: Pan-Asia refers to the entire Asian region], India and Russia.

This Letter of Intent, along with our previously announced Memorandum of Understanding with our partner in the Middle East, creates exciting opportunities to extend our brands beyond our domestic borders,” Atchison added

restorefreedom

(12,655 posts)
55. there was a baby who had been taken away
Thu Aug 13, 2015, 07:53 PM
Aug 2015

and the mother orca was making this loud bellow that no one had ever heard before. They called in a whale specialist, and he said that this was a long distance call, that the mother was desperately trying to locate and communicate with her baby after they took the baby away from her.

I think that speaks for itself about what needs to happen to sea world.

Major Nikon

(36,814 posts)
60. I'm not sure how this is relevant to Sea World
Thu Aug 13, 2015, 10:57 PM
Aug 2015

They haven't captured a wild orca in over 35 years. They have assisted in numerous rescues of stranded wild orcas in that time. Seems to speak a lot louder than promoting misinformation.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/10/21/us/seaworld-blackfish-qa/

restorefreedom

(12,655 posts)
61. its not misinfo. has nothing to do with taking them from the wild. its when they breed them
Thu Aug 13, 2015, 11:07 PM
Aug 2015

they take the babies away from their mothers. it is how things are done in captivity. orcas are very intelligent with complex family relationships. this is exceedlingly cruel.

and i doubt i need to tell you how they get the sperm....let's just say it isn't through any medical procedure....another vile way to abuse and steal the dignity of these tremendous creatures.

and that IS what happens at sw

restorefreedom

(12,655 posts)
63. i saw footage of the sperm "collection"
Thu Aug 13, 2015, 11:18 PM
Aug 2015

it is vile and an affront to both human dignity and the dignity of these beautiful, intelligent creatures. you said earlier you didn't go to sw and didn't care what happened to them. so why does this reality seem upsetting to you?

Major Nikon

(36,814 posts)
64. It's the same procedure used for all sorts of animals which undergo artificial insemination
Thu Aug 13, 2015, 11:35 PM
Aug 2015

Ascribing human emotions to such animals doesn't really do much good to people who aren't subject to such appeal to emotion fallacies, and neither does pretending I'm the one who is getting upset about the issue. Both are easily dismissed as counterproductive to rational discussion of the subject.

restorefreedom

(12,655 posts)
65. and if humans did not keep animals in captivity
Thu Aug 13, 2015, 11:39 PM
Aug 2015

and exploit them for their "meat" , their skins, or for entertainment, there would be no need at all for any insemination.

just because they don't speak the same language does not mean they have dissimilar emotions.

clearly you have never seen the cove

Major Nikon

(36,814 posts)
66. Demonstrably untrue
Thu Aug 13, 2015, 11:45 PM
Aug 2015
http://voices.nationalgeographic.com/2014/08/20/can-artificial-insemination-save-endangered-species/

just because they don't speak the same language does not mean they have dissimilar emotions.


Neither does it mean they do. As you have offered no evidence for your assertion, I feel no need to provide any to contradict it.

Major Nikon

(36,814 posts)
68. I was raised on a farm
Fri Aug 14, 2015, 12:13 AM
Aug 2015

As such I reject your petty implications which I would find absurd anyway.

The bottom line is Sea World maintains a high level of accreditation that the vast majority of aquariums don't even bother with. They have been investigated previously by the USDA by request of PETA and those charges were found to be without merit. If an obviously one-sided propaganda film counts as "data", more power to you. You are certainly free to develop your own set of standards on that basis and feel whatever you like. Just don't get upset when someone injects reality into the discussion.

 

chernabog

(480 posts)
70. So you were raised in a place that
Fri Aug 14, 2015, 06:42 AM
Aug 2015

Exploited animals full time. That must be why you don't care what seaworld does to the animals they hold in captivity.

Major Nikon

(36,814 posts)
73. True
Fri Aug 14, 2015, 10:41 AM
Aug 2015

But pretending you are morally superior is, and reveals far more about yourself than you probably think you are doing to others.

Just sayin'

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