France pushes for Greek bailout deal

[Surya Gayatri]

Source: BBC News

France will do all it can to keep Greece in the eurozone, because allowing it to leave would be too risky, Prime Minister Manuel Valls has said.

"The basis for a deal exists," he said ahead of an emergency eurozone summit.

However, Germany has warned against any unconditional debt write-off.


For Greek citizens, another day of queuing at the bank for a restricted sum of cash

Eurozone ministers have called on Greece to put forward fresh proposals after Greek voters rejected the latest draft bailout deal in a referendum.

Read more: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33421521

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Wait and see...all of Europe is waiting in apprehension.

[PoliticAverse]

1. "France will do all it can" - Well they could just give Greece the money they need. n/t

[BillZBubb]

2. No, they couldn't.

That would be political suicide for Hollande.

[madville]

7. They've already given Greece around 40-50 billion

They want them to make a deal so Greece keeps making their debt payments. If Greece defaults then France is out all that money for sure.

[BillZBubb]

3. Germany will find a way to scuttle any deal that doesn't punish the Greeks.

[DetlefK]

4. Would you be on the side of Greece if this were your money on the line?

"Now, let's get real about this. You lied to your friends for the last 15 years. You racked up debts on multiple credit cards until you went broke and you have borrowed money from all your friends, including me, and you will never be able to repay that in your whole life. It want this to be clear: We will give you this envelope of money, we will pay your credit card debts and forget about what we lent you. And in return you promise to never do this again. Let this be a lesson to you."

[closeupready]

5. Would you break the 1st Commandment if your spouse asked

you if their jeans made them look fat?

[DetlefK]

6. "Hmm, baby, you look voluptuous."

[closeupready]

8. Yes. If you know what's good for you.

[cloudythescribbler]

9. Lousy reasoning in trying to blow off referendum

The better analogy would be to the massive debt relief given by Greece and others to Germany in 1953. In a debt crisis BOTH lenders (creditors) and lendees are at fault. Here all the burden is put not on those who actually racked up the debts but on the Greek public rather than the public creditors sharing in the costs. As a practical matter, the Tsipras proposal for a haircut plus grace period is very moderate and the creditors are just being obstinate

What's needed now is for anti-austerity forces all over Europe and elsewhere (including here in the US) to mobilize in public and organized massive support for Greece in the face of the referendum. The Schauble types want to force Greece out of the Eurozone pour encourager les autres as the French say -- precisely because the problem of austerity aggravating the economic problems is also true in Spain, Portugal, Ireland and Italy. By making an example of Greece, they plan to push there class-warfare-from-above austerity politics further and lfurther

[DetlefK]

10. You are mistaken: The crisis is not in the least about Greece owing somebody money.

First, the debt was racked up by greek politicians who were elected by the greek populace.

Are you suggesting some kind of trial for past greek government-members for bad fiscal policy? Because otherwise the fault for the debt falls back right at the greek populace itself. Their votes, their politicians, their country, their responsibility.

Or are you suggesting that it was wrong for the creditors to give loans to someone who cooks his books and lies to you about his financial situation?






I'm all for extending the time-scale, so Greece can pay back over the next 10 or 20 years or so. But simply forgiving debts to someone who has shown massive fiscal irresponsibility...

Do you honestly believe that Greece would have bothered fighting the rampant tax-evasion and the cronyism and the bloated unnecessary bureaucracy and the corruption if the EU and IMF had fixed their problem with the snap of a finger? They could have done that and they still could do that right away.

But they won't. Not until the reforms are finished. F**k the debt. The debt doesn't matter. It's just money. Owning money is less important than the ability to pay your bills. Debts and deficits don't matter as long as you can pay your bills. And Greece cannot pay its bills because it doesn't generate taxes because the whole country until recently thought that tax-evasion is the greek way-of-life.
The debt is just the club the EU is waving to force Greece into reforms. THAT is what really matters and there will be no debt restructuring or debt relief until Greece has reformed to the satisfaction of the creditors.

Because Greece was and is in no shape to operate with a normal economy that produces taxes as added value to fund the social institutions.
Store-owners regularly evade sales-taxes like it's completely normal behavior!!!
They are still trying to find a way how to tax the most profitable industry of their whole nation and their 1%!!! DESPITE A F**KING POPULIST LEFT-WING GOVERNMENT BEING IN CHARGE!!!

[cstanleytech]

14. I am thinking more of a 40 - 60 year repayment plan actually.

It gives them more than enough time to get their house in order and then gradually repay the money over time so that they dont end up falling back into debt struggling to repay what by then will be an old debt.

[BillZBubb]

11. I've got a better one for you:

You started a massive war. Your lost and were ruined. You racked up debts and liabilities because of your actions. You were broke and beaten. You owed money to your former enemies, including me, and you will never be able to repay that in your whole life. I want this to be clear: We will give you this letter, it says we will forgive half your debts and let you pay back the rest when you can over 30 years. And in return you promise to never do this again. Let this be a lesson to you."

[DetlefK]

13. Well, I have an offer YOU can't refuse.

"Forgive us our debts and let's be friends. If we go broke, we will be a broken and poor country, but we will join the Soviet Union out of spite."

THAT was the decision the Allies faced after WWII. The Cold War started when the "iron curtain" came down over East Germany (Stalin blocking all communications). Now it was the Allies vs the Soviet Union. With Germany as the neutral wasteland in-between.
So, what did the Allies want?
A strong Germany as a partner, right at the border of the Soviet Union?
Or a disgruntled and impoverished neighbour they have to hold down with a military occupation?

Greece's problem is that they can't offer a similar threat to the EU. (Closer trade-relations with Russia won't save the greek economy. And Russia has it's own monetary problems until the price of oil rises again.) The only threat they have is the Grexit and while this would be a heavy wound for the EU, it would be lethal for Greece. Also, because of Ukraine any relationship with Russia is a geopolitical issue right now.




As I said in another post in this thread. This is not about Greece owing money. This is about Greece being structurally not suited to sustain itself AND make good on at least some of the debt. This is about politics.

Here's my bet to you: Right now, debt relief/restructuring is off the table and unthinkable. Once Greece has agreed to sufficient reforms, the EU will suddenly change its mind and pretend that debt-relief/restructuring isn't that outlandish at all and and should be pondered and would be a generous gesture to a dear friend.

[LanternWaste]

19. Sounds much like the reparations dictated by the Paris Peace Conference in 1918-1919..

Sounds much like the reparations dictated by the Paris Peace Conference in 1918-1919... which itself both set the stage for and was one of the major reasons WW2 happened 20 years later.

[BillZBubb]

22. No, actually it is like the treaty of London after WWII

There the Allies forgave 50% of the German debt. Greece dropped ALL claims. And the Allies gave the Germans 30 years to repay the rest at the easiest possible terms.

It just points out the hypocrisy of Germany's hard line against Greece. Not only is austerity bad economics, but it shows the Germans in a very bad light.

[Taitertots]

20. Does cutting one dollar of spending result in more than a dollar in lost income?

Comparing governments to individuals is pseudo-economic nonsense.


All reasonable economic analysis indicates that austerity will reduce economic activity by so much that it will reduce tax revenue more than the initial spend cuts.

[DetlefK]

24. Austerity is the only option right now.

Greece needs first and foremost reforms, not money.

If you give Greece money, it can be spent two ways: Pay down debt or invest.
- Investing money would yield no tangible economic growth because Greece first has to get rid of its corruption, systemic tax-evasion, cronyism and red tape. Greece was until recently economically not viable! Its spending was held aloft by massive loans!
- Reducing debt and deficits are the only other option what to do with the money.

[calimary]

12. OH Fuck - I glanced at this and thought it read "France pushes for Geek bailout deal".

I gotta go get some coffee and wake up completely...

[cstanleytech]

15. Get me a cup to please, cream and 7 splendas, thanks. nt

[calimary]

18. Seven Splendas? How'd you know that's what I'm ordering?

Guess we must have a sweet tooth of about the same size!

[timdog44]

16. if people do not have enough money to repay a debt

what are you going to gain from chastising them or putting them in prison or cutting them off from life. NOTHING

There is so much money out there laying around not doing anything that forgiving the Greek (read student or whatever) debt is not going to hurt anyone or anything. Money that is not circulating is a waste. It collects cobwebs, mold and evil. The only answer to unplayable debt is to forgive it. How many billionaires have money not doing anything. How many companies have money not doing anything. Those people, those corporations are criminals. Take that money and pay off the debt of the people who owe. Pass some reasonable laws that says debt is a responsibility that is incurred by your ability to pay it back. Not an austerity measure, but an easy pay book that can be dealt with. Money belongs to everybody. And the people or corporations who have it hidden away are criminals, not the people who can not pay their debt because the money is not present. They are c-r-i-m-i-n-a-l-s.

When is Germany going to pay their debt to society. When is Japan going to pay their debt to society. When is the USA going to pay their debt to society. Then when are the companies in these countries going to pay their debt to these countries. And on and on and on. A non productive society or people is a non contributing entity to society. Think of the inventions and ideas that could have happened up to this point if we had forgiven debt and made it easy to pay off. Even people who have the dream of a home and health and security would make the rest of society better. Everybody has a role to play. An important role. Doesn't matter if you are a genius or a person who washes your dishes. They are all important. And an arrogant person would argue against that. People don't want a minimum wage because they think that makes their wage less. What changes when a person is guaranteed a living wage, health, home and security. It does not make anyone else less, it makes them more.

Forgive the debt and lets get on with making things better.

[Munificence]

25. Here here!

I hate working every day, would love to live on a credit card then get that debt forgiven...then I could do it again, and again, and again, and again.

[timdog44]

27. the key thing you said

"working every day" - I think everybody would love to work everyday, well except maybe R candidates for president and possibly the people who vote for them. But working everyday is a good thing. First it gives you a reason to live and love. Second it gets you the the things that let you live and love. Third it makes life better for the things you live for and love. I could probably go on to at least 100, but the point is made. People want to work for the things the live for and love. Not for people who loaned you money under false pretenses. I think you could call them criminals, those who loaned the money. You take your car to a mechanic to be advised. You take your body to a doctor for advise. You go to a banker for advise. Those dirty supporters of money changers would have you believe you should know how money lending works. It is difficult and dangerous. People who make a lot of money don't have to pay much %, but if you go to payday loans facilities, they don't advise you. They fuck you. And then say it is your fault. Huh??
The really simple thing about money is if you have $20 vs $5, you have more to live and love. And support all the rest who are trying to do the same thing.

[timdog44]

28. Bet you could not do it.

It goes against the grain of honest people.

[GliderGuider]

26. It's the international version of debtor's prison.

I hope France can act as the voice of reason amid all this Teutonic insanity.

[timdog44]

17. Good

on France. Out of the wilderness a voice of reason.

[roamer65]

21. Merkel is absolute poison to a democratic, united Europe.

There is not one ounce of compassion or decency in her body. She is really a German version of Margaret Thatcher.

She will drag Europe down the shitter to further her own career and legacy.

France had better start planning the Frexit right away. If I were in Hollande's shoes, I'd definitely be planning a return to the franc.

[BillZBubb]

23. This could lead France to start rethinking the EU.

Maybe the Germans have figured out a way to rule all of Europe without firing a shot this time.