Pro-Confederate flag rally held at S.C. Statehouse

[IDemo]

Source: USA Today

COLUMBIA, S.C. — Several dozens supporters of the Confederate battle flag rallied Saturday at the South Carolina Statehouse, urging lawmakers to reject a call to remove the controversial banner from the grounds of the Capitol.

The rally came just hours after an activist climbed the pole where the flag flies and removed it. A new flag was put in its place within an hour.

The rally was not in response to that incident, having been planned since late in the week.

The supporters argued that they believe a majority of people in the state want the flag to remain where it is. To remove it, they said, would be to go against the will of the people.

Read more: http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/06/27/pro-confederate-flag-rally-held-sc-statehouse/29406303/

[sharp_stick]

1. I really don't care how many redneck

fuckwits want to fly that piece of shit rag. What I do care about is Governments willing to do it. Any State that flys the POS Confederate battle flag should be banned from Federal contracts.

[jzola]

2. I like that!

[misterhighwasted]

3. Well stated..!

[paleotn]

7. I totaly agree! (nt)

[RKP5637]

55. Agree! In my book flying that POS is like flying the swastika! This country needs to bury the hatred

and the symbols that go with it. That period of history should be buried in the past and only remembered as don't do it again.

[wordpix]

92. not just banned from fed contracts but all fed funds

good idea

[blackspade]

4. It should say "pro-racist" rally......

[Uncle Joe]

18. Symbols mean different things to different people.

https://sp.yimg.com/ib/th?id=JN.vJxuBsd1fmCf7%2bmgIFseWw&pid=15.1&P=0

https://sp.yimg.com/ib/th?id=JN.Xi%2fO2gZRPKT22l38jtNKtQ&pid=15.1&P=0

[Fred Sanders]

22. Pictures culled from the internet amounting to a whole lot of nothing.

The Dixie Swastika means one thing, hate. That a few folks do not see that is why a few folks need therapy.

[Uncle Joe]

24. Well since some people compare the Confederate Battle Flag to the Swastika, perhaps

you can find me some pictures "culled from the Internet" of Jews wearing that hated symbol?

[LuvLoogie]

29. The perpetrators of that flag where defeated and tried,

and Germany outlawed the flag. Jews weren't made to live surrounded by that symbol. Do you also dismiss the use of the "n" word because of its appropriation by African Americans? You took a disingenuous dump on this thread, and that's pretty fucked up.

Disgusting really.

[Uncle Joe]

32. My point was clear, symbols have different meanings to different people.

We're not Germany, we still have a First Amendment and no one forced the people in those pics to pose with or wear a Confederate Flag.

My post was in response to a post up thread that stated the Confederate Flag was just a racist symbol, without regard to a broader perception to what it means.

[LuvLoogie]

47. This flag predates the Nazi flag

and precedes it as a banner of white supremacy & master racism. For what it's worth, a search of "white man's flag" will lead you to one of the flag's designers having stated white supremacy as the motivation behind its creation.

What the flag represents is clear, the wielder's ignorance, denial and suppositions notwithstanding.

[Uncle Joe]

79. And the U.S. Flag predates the Confederate Flag

Regardless of what the designer stated to what it signified, it flew over slave ships, banks and financial institutions that financed the slave trade, U.S. Troops carried it while committing atrocities against Native Americans, child labor industries in the 19th and early 20th century,the KKK flies it to this day, it flew over Japanese American Internment camps, the McCarthy Era witch hunts, it was worn proudly by the same people that waged a war based on lies in Iraq, promoted torture, supported Citizens United placing the almighty dollar over the 1st Amendments protection against actual speech and the same U.S.Supreme Court which ruled in Bush vs Gore overruling the Florida Supreme Court taking away the peoples (most of them minorities) right to vote and have their votes counted.

I've said it before and I will say it again symbols mean nothing in regards to determining a specific moral value or an individual's interpretation of that symbol.

[LuvLoogie]

90. The United States of America is an evolving/advancing premise.

The Confederacy is a dead premise. It was defeated by the U.S. premise. The weilders of the Stars and Bars celebrate a corpse that should stay buried.

The evil that men do is thwarted in the U.S. system. The evil that men do is codified in the Confederacy.

[6000eliot]

49. And this one means racism to most people who are not either being ironic or self-deluded.

[wordpix]

93. what is this "broader perception" of the Confed flag?

perhaps African Americans wear the flag and cover themselves with it as a spoof, in the same way young blacks call each other the n word. It's racist for whites to say and wear, but for blacks it's re-appropriation and get-in-your-white-racist face.

[Uncle Joe]

98. Please read the entire Washington Post article on this thread,

I might further suggest not to get caught up on the one word of "choice," as so many responders did.

I'm not sure that I agree with her on that but I understand where she is coming from.

The woman in the article was originally from New York, and if you read all of it, you will understand that she's not alone in her belief and the other African Americans state their own varied reasons for agreeing with her regarding their supportive perceptions of the Confederate Flag.

Just as this example of African Americans having "varied" reasons for their feelings regarding this symbol so it is with white Americans it's not all black and white as so many people like to believe.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026926647

I will post an entire OP on General Discussion addressing your question and a few others here more in depth later this afternoon but I have an appointment that will tie my up my time for the next few hours.

Peace to you.

[Gore1FL]

31. I have pictures of NAZi's using the Confederate flag in germany

The comparison works that way, too.

https://twitter.com/Bipartisanism/status/613498975555944448/photo/1

[Uncle Joe]

33. I have pictures of the KKK flying a U.S. Flag, so what does that mean?

Is the U.S. Flag a racist symbol.

https://sp.yimg.com/ib/th?id=JN.rUqkngCTMDFst3RBVlvxxQ&pid=15.1&rs=1&c=1&qlt=95&w=196&h=110

[lobodons]

36. Means they're Racist Americans

Americans can be nut job whackadoodles too.

[Uncle Joe]

38. But does that make the U.S. Flag a racist symbol? n/t

[Gore1FL]

44. Only if we allow it to be co-opted.

The Confederate Flag and the Gadsden Flag are ruined forever.

[Uncle Joe]

64. How does the U.S. stop the KKK from co-opting the U.S. Flag?

The KKK can and do fly the U.S. Flag at will as the First Amendment gives them the right to do, just at it does in flying the Confederate Battle Flag.

But has the U.S. labeled the KKK a terrorist organization?

The only way anyone can keep someone from "co-opting your flag" is to fly the flag yourself, condemn the racist organization or people flying your flag and to arrest, prosecute and convict people for racist acts of violence or hate crimes.

As I stated up thread if the government or people of any given state decide to remove the Confederate Flag from government grounds more power to them.

The people that are most tied to the Confederate Flag, ie: Sons of Confederate Veterans have condemned any group or individual that espouse racial superiority or political extremism from using the flag in 1989 and again in 2010.

http://www.reaganscvcamp.org/Press_Releases/SCV_Hate_Resolution.pdf

WHEREAS, the misuse of the Confederate Battle Flag by any extremist
group or individual espousing political extremism and/or racial superiority
degrades the Confederate Battle Flag and maligns the noble purpose of our
ancestors who fought against extreme odds for what they believed was just ,
right, and constitutional, and

WHEREAS, the misuse of other flags and symbols of the Confederate States
of America and the Confederate States Army, Navy, and Marines is similarly
degrading,

NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED, that the Sons of Confederate
Veterans in General Convention assembled in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma,
does hereby condemn in the strongest terms possible the use of the
Confederate Battle Flag or any other flag ,symbol, seal, title, or name bearing
any relationship whatsoever to the Confederate States of America or the
armed forces of that government by any such extremist group or individual,
of whatever name or designation by which known, and

LET IT BE FURTHER RESOLVED, that the Sons of Confederate Veterans,
in General Convention assembled, does hereby condemn in the strongest
terms possible the inappropriate uses of the Confederate Battle Flag or any
other flag, seal, title to name bearing any relationship whatsoever to the
Confederate States of America or to the armed forces of the Government of
the Confederate States of America by individuals or groups of individuals,
organized or unorganized, who espouse political extremism or racial
superiority.

[Missn-Hitch]

72. Reply to Uncle Joe post #64. So each state should decide?

So let the state decide, say, if a black person can vote? If a black person can marry a white person? Yes, I see. Noble purpose of your ancestors? Ha, I wipe with such documents or flags. One flag, one country. Does the federal government EVER have the constitutional authority to trump the state? Please continue. And yes, individuals should and will have the right to fly the flag to their dark hearts' content but NO on government property.

[Uncle Joe]

77. No the state shouldn't have the power to decide whether a black person can vote or whether

a black person/white person or any other racial combination can marry.

On the other hand sometimes you may not wish the federal government had interfered with the state, the U.S. Supreme Court should never have taken up Bush vs Gore and handed the selection to Bush by overruling the Florida Supreme Court's decision to have all the votes in the state counted, the federal government in that case worked to disenfranchise the people's right to vote and have their votes counted, most of which were minorities.

I had family which fought on both sides of the Civil War and the only flag that I own and for that matter have ever owned is a U.S. Flag which draped my father's coffin and is now stored in a plastic triangle in my closet.

[Missn-Hitch]

80. Good.

So the people of S.C. takes the flag down or the rest of us (the federal government) will do it for them. Put it to a vote this week and be done with it S.C.

I wish I could say I had family who fought for the north but my deeper roots hail from Kentucky.

Have a good evening. I have to find out if there is any news on catching the waste of genome who set the black churches on fire.

[Uncle Joe]

81. I agree they should put it to a vote.

Peace to you, Missn-Hitch

[Gore1FL]

75. By flying it un-stuck in time as the U.S. Flag n/t

[Uncle Joe]

78. You mean like U.S. Flag Lapel pins worn so proudly by the same people

the waged a war based on lies, promoted torture, and support "Citizens United."

That's a living symbol, but it's just a symbol and by itself doesn't signify any specific kind of moral value.

[Gore1FL]

82. stuck-in-time vs work-in-progress

I really can;t put it any more simply.

In any event, it doesn't matter.

The confederate flag was compared to the Nazi flag. A point was raised concerning the validity of the analogy. I provided that validity. The U.S flag is an unrelated squirrel to the original argument.

[Uncle Joe]

83. As there is no more Confederate Government, the only work in progress

can be provided by the descendents of its' veterans and I believe that's taking place.

When many if not most of them say "heritage not hatred," they mean it.

If you close off your mind and heart to their proclamations carte blanche, then you only empower the extremist elements that don't believe in that mantra.

[Gore1FL]

84. They may mean it, but that doesn't make them right.

Any past positive meaning the confederate flag may have had is gone. The brand is poisoned.
The swastika had a pre-nazi meaning. It is poisoned.
The Gadsden flag has a pre-tea party meaning. It is poisoned.

[Uncle Joe]

85. Everything changes and it never stops.

Without accepting the fact that everything changes, we cannot find perfect composure. But unfortunately, although it is true, it is difficult for us to accept it. Because we cannot accept the truth of transience, we suffer.

Shunryu Suzuki

Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/s/shunryusuz104502.html#HXR21oRevMTIUzwy.99

[Gore1FL]

88. The policies of the never-legal CSA stopped in 1865. I promise.

They aren't changing.

[Uncle Joe]

89. I never said nor implied that the CSA or its policies should come back, we were talking about

symbols.

The interpretation of symbols change, your own posts exemplify that.

[blackspade]

23. The fact that some don't understand the meaning...

Of a symbol doesn't negate the meaning.
This flag is a racist symbol used by traitors to this nation.
That is no middle ground on this one.

[Uncle Joe]

25. Art is in the eye of the beholder and the same holds true for history insofar as

peoples' perception of said event.

A symbol can and will most often have more than one meaning.

Every soldier that fought in the Civil War, both North and South would be racists by today's standards, even Abraham Lincoln.

While the North may view the South seceding as traitorous, the South viewed it as entirely within their Constitutional Right that a state could leave the Union.

The problem that many people have with history is in judging people from the past by today's standards, they lived in a starkly different world.

[Fred Sanders]

26. The symbols of defeated racist nations belong in museums, preserve the history, remember the hate.

If you can not wrap your thinking around that I can not help you.

[Uncle Joe]

30. Try to wrap your thinking around this, the North and the South were both racist.

Not just during the Civil War but even unto this day, there are racists in every region of the nation, not as many as there used to be, but they are still here and they know no borders.

I have no doubt some people would love to hoist the sins perpetrated over hundreds of years solely onto a racist nation that existed for 4, perhaps to whitewash any connection of their own nation's past evils and salve their conscious. They like simple answers to complex issues and the world is comfortable when its' nothing but black and white. They glory in their self-righteousness and pat themselves on the back, evil has been vanquished because a hated colored cloth has been taken down.

The First Amendment is a living right, it doesn't belong in a museum, if the elected representatives of of S.C. or any other state wishes to fly the Confederate Battle Flag or some version thereof, they have every right to do so. If they decide to take the Confederate Flag down, more power to them, but continuous vitriol from condemning people; with no mote in their own eye only serves to keep a festering wound open and strengthen their resolve to keep flying a flag of defiance.

[SwankyXomb]

34. Maybe so, but the only people still trying to justify that worthless fucking racist flag

are worthless fucking racists.

[Uncle Joe]

37. Symbols mean different things to different people.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=1129854

[6000eliot]

50. The South were a bunch of treasonous losers who fought a war to enslave human beings.

THAT is the ONLY thing that piece of shit rag means. THE ONLY THING.

[Fred Sanders]

59. Along with the Nazi Swastika, the Dixie Swastika represents only the symbol of a racist nation that was defeated.

[blackspade]

40. Again, you are missing the point....

You're still not getting that the flag that you are defending was, during the civil War, and is today, a symbol of oppression and racism. It does not represent some idealistic past where the South was a great unsullied region of the country before the 'unprovoked' invasion by the North brought the good times to an end. The South was a place of great suffering and death for people of color where Southern aristocrats and their political lackeys sought to perpetuate a social system that used religion and force to keep African Americans in bondage. There was no honor and valor in the secession. The flags that the poor whites that made up the bulk of the southern armies fought beneath were icons of sedition and treason. The dead from both sides died for the folly of the aristocrats that couldn't care less about commoner's families and homes. You can stand for a free open multiracial society or with a reactionary social group that uses fear, intimidation, and death to oppress others in the name of one of the great evils of humanity, slavery.

[Fred Sanders]

58. Government flag waving is not free speech, it is conduct, so said SCOTUS last week. Keep up.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

63. After seeing all of your posts in this thread, I believe you have issues.

Go defend the confederate racist flag to someone who actually gives a fuck what a racist thinks.

[Uncle Joe]

65. We all have issues, but I'm not a racist.

Peace to you.

[blackspade]

39. Um, no. You're trying to stake out a middle ground that doesn't exist.

It is not their battle flag unless they were part of the army of Northern Virginia, Tennessee, or a member of the CSA Navy from 1863 to 1865. Otherwise it is not a relevant symbol of the actual Confederacy. There were several permutations of the CSA flag that would be appropriate for memorialization. The modern rendition of the 'battle flag' is at it's heart a symbol of racism. It is a symbol of white supremacy like the swastika on the Nazi flag. The cause that the common soldier died for was the continuation of chattel slavery in the South. There was no honor or valor in their 'cause.' They may have fought with honor and valor, but in the end they died for an unjust cause perpetuating a social system that is an affront to humanity.

[Efilroft Sul]

27. Are those pics from the Clayton Bigsby family reunion?

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/82404406/

[Lucky Luciano]

28. Clayton bigsby is one of the funniest things I have ever seen! nt

[Missn-Hitch]

73. Wow. I busted out. Thanks for that.

[Ken Burch]

53. Pretty sure there's some kind of joke going there. n/t.

[olegramps]

61. It really is beyound my comprehesion why they would don the symbol of suppression of Blacks.

Nor do I comprehend Black politicians who are members of today's Republican Party. Don't they know that the South was solidly Democrat until the passage to the civil rights legislation. As Johnson remarked when he signed the legislation that the Democrats would lose the South for generations to come. Within a election cycle nearly every Democrat was defeated for reelection. The Southern Strategy was purposefully designed to harvest the racism of the White Southerners.

[Missn-Hitch]

74. Hear hear. Quite an enigma indeed.

[LanternWaste]

97. I'd use anecdotal evidence to rationalize my bias, too

Should the need arise, I'd use anecdotal evidence to rationalize my bias, too.

[cstanleytech]

5. Real simple solution, just put it to a vote and let the people of the state decide if they

want to fly it still on state property as part of the states history or if they no longer want it to fly on state grounds.

[SunSeeker]

45. The 14th Amendment is not subject to a vote in the South for a reason.

If it was up to majority vote in some Southern states, interracial marriage would be made illegal again and segregation would be re-instituted.

A state government should not be flying the Confederate Battle Flag. Period.

That flag represents the fight to maintain slavery. Any other claims of what it means are bullshit.

The 14th Am equal protection clause requires states treat their black citizens with the same dignity as their white citizens. A state government flying a flag that says their black citizens should be slaves is not treating their black citizens with equal dignity.

[cstanleytech]

56. Lets assume it is a 14th violation.

So far no one with standing (in other words someone who actually lives in the state) has won a lawsuit against the state to have it remove this flag from this so called memorial that Newsome took it down from.
Until a court makes that ruling the state legally could keep flying it at that location unless of course the citizens of the state vote to have state remove it.

[SunSeeker]

67. So you still think keeping that flag should be up to a vote (consisting of a white majority)? nt

[cstanleytech]

68. Well what do you recommend? Sending in the army to remove the flag?

There are other perfectly legal options other than that.
#1 The state government decides to remove it
#2 Someone with standing (which Newsome lacks) challenges it in court.
#3 The voters vote to remove it
If #2 fails all you got left is #1 and #3

[SunSeeker]

69. #1, then if that doesn't work, #2.

Justice Kennedy's broad application of the equal protection clause to protect "equal dignity" will be very helpful in a court case.

[cstanleytech]

87. Well #1 might not happen, if it doesnt then its #2 or #3 and frankly I think are probably better

odds with #3 because with #2 it would have to be proven that flying the flag over a memorial violates the 14th in some way and I just dont see a majority of SCOTUS agreeing that it does.

[TexasTowelie]

6. What was truly sad is that a black state employee

had to raise the replacement flag after it was taken down by the activist. The poor guy was probably ordered to do it much like a master orders his slaves. What a horrible photo-op that employee was placed in by his supervisor.

[matt819]

8. White supremacy rally

Kkk rally

Domestic terrorist rally - I hope the police and FBI have infiltrated this group, as they did ows

[SwankyXomb]

35. Better Headline Time:

Domestic Terror Group Calls For Race War

[ann---]

9. The south will never change

It's obvious now. Imagine if they had won the war
and America was not the Confederate States of America!!!!

Yikes, if not slavery, then definitely segregation, no world
power status and economy down the toilet.

Thank Gawd the Yankees won!

[IDemo]

12. One of the commenters at the link begins,

"Unfortunately, Abraham Lincoln".

It's still 'the war of Northern aggression' in their minds and always will be.

[ann---]

57. The fact that

the south kept segregation there for decades after the
Civil War PROVES it was about slavery and that they thought
(and many still) that blacks are inferior.

It's an ugly, painful past for the descendants of those people
to face, I guess.

[noiretextatique]

86. the entire nation did that...it was not just the south

why don't people know this?

[asiliveandbreathe]

10. A majority of people???

The supporters argued that they believe a majority of people in the state want the flag to remain where it is. To remove it, they said, would be to go against the will of the people...

What? - All one of them!

BTW - USA today - "that activist" has a name - Let me introduce you to - Bree Newsome!

[Skittles]

11. racists outing themselves

fuck them

[Spitfire of ATJ]

13. Did they manage to get a black guy to join them?

[blackspade]

41. There is nothing noble about that flag.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

43. These people are mentally disturbed.....

We know by who....

[Historic NY]

14. Had this argument today...he says its free speech...

I say it not. Its the flag of the confederate states not the United States. Can you imagine what would happen if someone flew the ISIS flag????

This flag didn't get bandied about until the Brown VS Board of Education to desegerate it became the rallying flag of dissent to Civil Right.

In SC it didn't show up until 1962!

The first time it flew

Daniel Hollis, a member of the commission responsible for planning South Carolina’s Confederate War Centennial, recalled the exact day the flag was first hoisted during an interview published in 1999.

Hollis said the flag itself went up on April 11, 1961, for the opening of the Civil War centennial "at the request of Aiken Rep. John A. May."

"May told us he was going to introduce a resolution to fly the flag for a year from the capitol. I was against the flag going up," Hollis said, "but I kept quiet and went along."

The resolution was approved in 1962, but never included a date for the flag’s removal.

"It just stayed up," Hollis said. "Nobody raised a question.
http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2015/jun/22/eugene-robinson/confederate-flag-wasnt-flown-south-carolina-state-/

[cosmicone]

17. It IS free speech and any private person or business can fly it under protection.

However, NO PUBLIC FUNDS should be spent in making it, hoisting it and maintaining it whatsoever.

[jwirr]

15. Wasn't the will of the people kind of taken care of in the Civil War? Their leaders signed a

surrender.

There are two things going on right now that are dangerous. This protest which could turn violent. And the burning of black churches in the state. I would guess that both are being done by just a few people who are connected to hate groups.

I don't know were the rest of the people stand probably all over the place from for to against. But I feel sorry for the group that want nothing to do with this hatred.

I am of German descent so maybe I should demand that they let me fly the Nazi flag. I would outright refuse - I refused to display it in our veteran's memorial museum and I would again. Germany has a new legal flag today and that I would give full honor to not the one of Nazi heritage because it stood for evil.

[cosmicone]

16. Time to lobby corporations to get out of SC

Hitting their pocketbook is the only way to make racists bend.

[Red1]

19. Good Idea..

[link:|

[underpants]

20. Pro-LOSER

[candelista]

21. All this strife over a symbol.

It's ridiculous.

[Fred Sanders]

60. All this white privilege failing to see the symbol of a failed racist nation is what it is.

Ask the Germans, they get it.

[treestar]

66. What is is a symbol of?

Slavery and racism.

[Little Tich]

42. The South shall not rise again. n/t

[juajen]

91. Really. Tell that to Houston, Dallas, Nashville, Birmingham,

New Orleans, Baton Rouge, etc. The South has been rising for a long time. Forgive me, southerners, if I left out one of your lovely cities.

[SunSeeker]

46. Those racists would put African Americans back in chains if they could. nt

[Alkene]

48. ...---...

[Joe Chi Minh]

51. I wonder how they would like it, if the Yankee flag - not the current one, but

the one they had at the time, with a circle of stars - was displayed right next to it, maybe larger, as well. Just to show who won.

[Ken Burch]

52. Wow...several DOZEN...

[WhoWoodaKnew]

62. That's the first thing I noticed. So, 36? 48?

[Joe Chi Minh]

54. Shelled into the stone age, and still not quite up-to-date.

[trueblue2007]

70. those PRO CONFEDERATE FLAG LOVERS are full of hate

[olddots]

71. who would mate with one of these gargoyles ?

a lawn tractor ?

[HFRN]

76. the simplest arguement to make for taking it down

is that it's not an official flag, and that only official flags fly on gov prop

[hollowdweller]

94. I think Texas for instance flying the Mexican Flag under the US and Texas flags would provoke

A stir. People are free to do what they want, but nearly every black person I've known did not like the confederate flag and it's only polite for us as a country not to promote it.

http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Mexican-flag-fuels-immigration-debate-1499466.php

[lewebley3]

95. At Vicksburg, Grant gave orders, when He took the Battle!

General Grant and Lincoln, dictated terms to the south
when the south lost.

They made it illegal to fly a Confederate flag, they made the south
surrender all firer arms except small arms.

In Vicksburg, the union office made it illegal to fly the traitor flag.

The use of this flag is a violation of the North conditions of the surrender of the
south.

[apnu]

96. If the "supporters" believe they have a majority, why did only "dozens" show up at the rally?

We don't need to make fun of them, they do it to themselves.