'Transformation': Perry now opposes all abortion, even in rape or incest cases

[brooklynite]

Last edited Wed Dec 28, 2011, 01:02 AM - Edit history (1)

from MSNBC:

OSCEOLA, Iowa -- In what the Texas governor calls a "transformation," Rick Perry on Tuesday said that he has reversed his acceptance of abortion in some severe circumstances, saying that he now opposes the procedure even in cases of rape and incest.

Perry said the change came after seeing the "Gift of Life" film produced by former Arkansas Gov. Mike Huckabee. He told an audience of Iowans at Clark Electric Co-op in Osceola that he was moved by the story of a woman who introduced the film during a screening earlier this month in Des Moines.

"She said, 'I am the product of rape.' And she said 'my life has worth,'" Perry said of his exchange with the woman. "It was a powerful moment."

The Texas governor made the statement in response to a question from Joshua Verwers, a pastor at Full Faith Christian Center in Chariton, who noted that Perry had recently signed a stringent Personhood USA pledge that urges signatories to oppose abortion "without exception and without compromise."

I'll take "Religious Bigotry" for $1,000, Alex...

[MichiganVote]

1. Then don't have one Perry.

[SheilaT]

4. That's what I always say.

If you don't believe in abortion, don't have one.

There are women who would choose to bear a baby that was the result of rape. That is HER CHOICE. In fact, that's what choice is all about. Forced childbearing is no different from chattel slavery, and slavery, I believe was abolished in this country a century and a half ago.

[Charlemagne]

28. If you don't believe in abortion, don't have one.

My govt teacher in high school used to say that it made so much sense. We are dealing with the party of 'personal responsibility and individualism. so why not.

[uncleroy]

29. with respect,

slavery was not abolished; it was transformed from an agricultural society, and spread out over all demographics to an industrial society: instead of a whip, we now have the grindstone...

[Charlemagne]

32. Good point. Slavery died

because industrialization and capitalism made it cheaper to use workers. When you have a slave, you have made a big investment. You need the salve to be healthy enough to carry out the task at hand while they are in their prime. yes, you can always get another slave; however any new slaves mean that you have to expend resources. Sorta like having a car. You change the oil and treat it decently (enough) so it doesnt break down on you.

So with capitalism and its partner, industrialization, you now have a system where the former slave is no different than a part of the machine that creates the product. The machine is the big investment, not the person. If the person is injured or starves, it is none of your concern...you just get another worker. Yes you have to pay them (wage labor) however the overhead for the worker is likely less than that off the slave. Decent clothing and shelter to protect them from the elements is not of your concern. You only need them to perform a task for a certain amount of time. Its like renting a car, you dont change the oil in it because you dont care about the long term well being. You just want it to get you to point B.

Specialized labor (however you want to define that) is a bit different because you it is skilled, or, you put capital into training the worker. As such, it is in your best financial interest to keep the worker from starving or falling into the machines.

Ok, so now people can sell their labor and if specialized they can expect at least some decent treatment, right? Well, sort of.....you guys know how the world economy works today. Is there wage slavery today? Ill let you all be the judge of that.

[jberryhill]

11. Don't have one what? Rape, incest or abortion?

Because he's probably had at least one of those three, if not two.

[uncleroy]

30. too bad he can t get pregnant...

while not promoting or condoning violence per se, i ve always considered that if these evangelical conservative "it s not REALLY your body" types had to experience some of the slimy, evil shit we ve gone through; they might just change their tune...

[SheilaT]

53. I repeat: If you don't believe in abortion

don't have one.

[TheWraith]

2. He's apparently attempting to compete with Romney...

...in the valuable flip-flop demographic.

[Vanje]

6. LOL! nt

[McCamy Taylor]

8. But Romney opposed to save the life of the mother. Will Perry go that far?

[jberryhill]

10. Perry will top that by imposing the death penalty for abortion

Then, there is no rationale to support "to save the life of the mother" since we'll execute her if she DOES get an abortion.

[CTyankee]

56. You make a good point. Taking it forward, the "mother" is also a "hit man" in

hiring a doctor to "murder" her "baby." Isn't she?

[jberryhill]

57. That would seem to be their point

But they always shy away from specifying how they want to punish women.

Their usual cop-out is "no, we'll just go after the doctors. The woman is a victim too."

In other words, they want to scare doctors out of providing safe, legal abortions, thus making it more likely that illegal abortions would be unsafe.

It's like their approach to sex education - for God's sake, don't tell kids how to avoid pregnancy. And then they can't figure out why teen pregnancies increase in response to abstinence-only education.

[CTyankee]

59. How is a woman a victim of abortion, I would ask.

If she arranges for the abortion and pays the doctor who performs the abortion, how then does SHE become the victim? If the answer is that she has somehow been "victimized" by the doctor, then my next question is: don't women have free will?

This is my imaginary conversation with people like Perry. I want to drill down to where they admit that they think women are nitwits, or children, or otherwise incapable of moral choice (maybe because they are "hysterical"?). In other words, not truly human. Only males can be fully human and capable of reasonable thought and decision making. And so it is up to men to make and carry out the rules.

I wish more women in the media would step up with these sorts of questions for these candidates....

[jberryhill]

63. You nailed it

Women, in their view, have limited moral agency.

[Loudly]

3. That was her mother's choice. A different rape victim should be denied a different choice?

[McCamy Taylor]

9. Wonder who told her "you were a rape baby"? Not something you usually tell your kid.

[ScottLand]

20. That's the best point here. If it would help their point, I'm sure they could produce the

rapist to say, "yes, I raped her mother, but look how well that turned out!".

[Hepburn]

38. Good point...

...I simply cannot imagine a "loving mother" telling a child that he/she was the product of a rape. Does not compute.

[CTyankee]

60. This is why I don't believe these stories, or at least if they are true, we don't know

what a horrific life the raped woman had as a result.

[Nikia]

62. My sister's ex was told that

I am not sure what age he was. He, like many children without a father in the picture, was curious about who is dad is and why he never saw him. I suppose his mother could lie or claim to have no idea. She chose to tell the truth though.

[tawadi]

5. He's desperate

And idiotic enough to believe the Christian evangelical base will save him.

[freshwest]

7. Insert Sarcasm Icon Here: 'The Democrats and the Republicans are all the same.'

And here:

People who stay at home are electing these goons across the country.

From the Rush song 'Freewill,' 'If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.'

Yeah, 'that was laid on with a trowel,' but better than having the GOP's boot at my throat.

[VWolf]

22. That song is, what, 30 years old? And it's still relevant. n/t

[freshwest]

43. I heard it years ago and found it again a few years ago. Yes, they had a lot to say in that one:

Freewill

There are those who think that life has nothing left to chance,
a host of holy horrors to direct our aimless dance.
A planet of playthings, we dance on the strings of powers we cannot perceive.
"The stars aren't aligned or the gods are malign," blame is better to give than receive.
You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice.
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.
You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill.
I will choose a path that's clear, I will choose freewill.

There are those who think that they were dealt a losing hand,
the cards were stacked against them, they weren't born in Lotus-Land.
All preordained, a prisoner in chains a victim of venomous fate.
Kicked in the face, you can't pray for a place in heaven's unearthly estate.
You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice.
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.
You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill.
I will choose a path that's clear, I will choose freewill.

Each of us, a cell of awareness, imperfect and incomplete.
Genetic blends with uncertain ends on a fortune hunt that's far too fleet.
You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice.
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.
You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill.
I will choose a path that's clear, I will choose freewill.



Kind of goes with my philosophy of life. It's not without cost though.

[krucial]

12. Most of these folks are Hypocrits

If Perry or any of these holier than though wife,daughter,sister,mother,or any of their close friends were raped by a low life scumbag criminal especially a Black criminal,I would bet that they would not suggest that they carry that pregnancy to full term,Perry and the rest of the holier than though pro life hypocrits, would be one of the first ones to keep it on the down low and go get an abortion as soon as fast as possible?

[Skittles]

14. repukes/rich folk always have another set of rules for themselves

ALWAYS

[caveat_imperator]

27. Yup.

I bet they even have heavily edited versions of the Bible, or whatever holy book they own, just for their eyes (those that bother to be religious, that is).

[freshwest]

54. Several thoughts on this, perhaps controversial ones:

We most likely agree that those laws are for the little people. No rich person would be forced to obey these laws. Their bodies are 'private property' and not up for public scrutiny.

Those with means got their safe, but illegal abortions in the days before Roe vs. Wade. They will always get whatever medical care they can pay for in private settings for while some of them are legislating it for others.

The reason people aren't up in arms over this movement to restrict all abortions is based on fear of what is being done elsewhere. That and the Dominionist armies some want to build up to conquer the world, which is another bucket of worms, but I'll go into the fear factor.

We're fortunate that legislators have not been advocating abortions like the Chinese did or applauding other places allowing abortions to prevent girls being born. There is also a pro-abortion group of wackoes in this country.

Some fundamentalists want to abort those who could be 'born gay' in the womb or come from liberal families. Determining who is worthy to live based on political or other reasons before or after birth is dangerous to all of us.

Just a few thoughts.

[Skittles]

13. get that, ladies? fetal tissue is more important than you

[Hepburn]

39. Yep...and that is strictly by the U.S. Const...right?

What bullshit ~~ a fetus has Const right to life, but a woman has no right to privacy.

[JaneQPublic]

15. Perry Supports Full Reproduction Rights for Rapists!

Under a President Perry, a rapist will get to choose which woman -- or underage teen -- will bear his child... and that woman or child MUST give birth to that child.

In other words, a rapist will have greater reproductive rights than law-abiding female members of society.

That's how the argument should be framed.

[yardwork]

23. Sounds biblical.

[brooklynite]

26. Maybe she should have to marry him, too...

...wouldn't want an unwed mother bringing up the child alone, would he?

[yardwork]

36. Good point.

[Hepburn]

40. Well, yeah...

...children do better in a two parent, hetero home ~~ even if the father is a rapist.

[DanSurp]

51. wow

Perry is responsible for 234 and counting death warrants, including at least one that may have been innocent. I wonder if he will watch the innocence project and stop the death penalty. That isn't really the point in this forum, but my jaw dropped when he came to this revelation. His religious base believes in no sex before marriage and that marriage is between a man and woman and without both parents bringing up their child will damage that child. This is sex in the form of rape out of wedlock with a baby that will have his/her father in jail for hopefully life. Forcing a woman to go to term from rape is psychological torture for life. Perry refused to answer the question about a woman who would die from medical reasons if she didn't terminate the pregnancy. He is considering letting a woman die in order to keep no abortion policy? Is this country going backwards and f-ing nuts? This pledge has angered me so badly. It is so disrespectful to women. Women should be furious and Perry, and the other 3 who signed this terrible pledge should never be allowed to serve in public office.

I think he said this because he is pandering to the extreme religious right and I HOPE he is aware of the recent (I think Mississippi) public vote against saying a fertilized egg is a human being. In the extreme religious red state, even Republicans were against saying this. If he actually believes that rape and incest do not qualify for abortion, he is truly a bastard. I doubt many incest children even exist and doubt one will go public and thank the government for saving future incest babies. If Perry thinks incest babies will come out normal, he is more stupid than I thought. They will most likely suffer a terrible short life full of disabilities and a mother who will hate him/her. What is wrong with this country? We claim sharia law as terrible and Perry now supports more of an Afghanistan position than a woman's rights. President jerk of Afghanistan pardoned a rape VICTIM who was put in jail for being raped and having child out of wedlock. She was forced to keep child and may be forced to marry the rapist when he gets out of jail.

[kiranon]

55. Exactly right. It gives rapists more rights than their chosen victim.

It is anti women and open season on women by these Presidential candidates. Why should a rapist have the right to have a child with any women he chooses and a woman have to bear any child conceived that way. Perhaps the issue needs to be framed in terms of a woman's property right in her eggs and reproductive organs. Only the woman would have the right to donate her egg for purposes of reproduction or to destroy her eggs whether she is raped or in cases of incest or whatever. Who owns the eggs - the woman, the rapist - society - God - the man no matter what his status is? Does a woman lose her rights when the egg is fertilized? I don't think so. Can a woman demand that any man father her child? If not, then a woman does not have the same rights as a rapist. These are a lot of ideas hitting the wall. Perhaps one argument will stick.

[JaneQPublic]

65. Well said! (nt)

[Maraya1969]

16. Another, "I am now your robot; pledge."

[Ken Burch]

17. even when he knocks up his own cousin-sister?

[Warren DeMontague]

18. Well, wait, he sez it's his religious belief, which we're apparently not allowed to judge or mock

sorry, can't say anything about it. Actually, it'd be better if we all just sat back and let these fundamentalist shitheads write our laws and shred our constitution, because otherwise we're bullies who are being mean to Christians.

[kurtzapril4]

44. I totally agree

I am reading "The God Delusion" right now, and Dawkins says basically the same thing. We're told we HAVE to respect the beliefs of christians, otherwise we're just being big 'ol meanies. Why do we have to respect their beliefs? These are a set of beliefs that causes their believers to want to limit my freedom...and I don't feel I need to give them any respect at all.

[SKKY]

19. And that loud thump was the Perry campaign hitting rock bottom...

...it's a shame it took so long to get here. On the other hand, he might have had time to recover if this happened, oh say, 6 months ago.

[Ilsa]

21. Because women just can't wait to

Mix their DNA with a sociopathic rapist's DNA.

[tanyev]

24. Time to change the GOP mascot to the pander bear.

[Roland99]

25. ha!

[Lone_Star_Dem]

31. Perry - the political weathervane for the RW extremist.

In Texas he supported a law banning the bi/gay/lesbian population from fostering children, because the RW extremist were opposed to the practice. He was promptly smacked upside his pandering head with reality when he found out we'd end up with thousands of children without foster homes.

[NickB79]

33. And when a woman comes to the ER hemmoraging from an ectopic pregnancy?

Will Mr. Perry be there to explain to her that the fetus inside her that is dooming them both to death also has worth and shouldn't be aborted?

[DeathToTheOil]

34. K'd & R'd

Sorry I didn't spot this sooner.

[SoapBox]

35. ...sick and creepy.

It should be the woman's decision...not his.

[Rsemry1]

37. Perry: no abortion even with incest or rape!!

@RickPerry You must be aware of the beautiful bond a mother fells towards her unborn child! a loved and wanted child! Now change this a little bit! A horrible, savage rape
That sometimes ends in almost killing a woman or sometimes does kill her! If she lives and gets pregnant, she will abhorr that life within her whether It is because of INCEST or Rape! It will be beyond MOST women's capabilities to carry that child and feel it move inside her! u r not qualified to make this choice for all woman! Maybe just your wife and children, but not for the whole nation! I and MOST women would rather be dead than go through that! You're a fool and not very empathetic towards women! You don't deserve to be President! You're not smart enough!!

[okieinpain]

41. yep, but still there's no difference between him and president obama. n/t.

[arely staircase]

42. So is this part of the GOP "traditional family" definition? Mother, child and rapist? nt

[Politicub]

45. The GOP field continues its race to the bottom

Perry's pov is sickening.

[oldbanjo]

46. He swaps sides after watching a show, he may swap sides after watching a NAZI movie.

I don't trust him.

[Charlemagne]

47. Wouldnt incest be part of rape?

I mean, if the father or brother rapes you that is still rape. If you are having an incestuial (is that even a word) relationship and you are happy about it, then, I guess, you would judge whether you want a child using the same metrics as 'regular' couples.

[Ilsa]

48. Perry abandons compassion and reason after a movie?

Yeah, that makes for great presidential leadership.

[ScottLand]

49. I'm not PRO-abortion by any means, but just what is the Personhood USA plan for

all the unwanted babies? Certainly, they don't advocate FORCING the mother to raise the child? Or knocking on doors and FORCING the nearest homeowner to raise the child. Will they have a drop-off window so that Personhood USA can eat the costs of raising the baby? This is like what got us into Iraq. Great plan until we realise we didn't plan for the aftermath.

[CTyankee]

64. Who IS "pro-abortion"? I hear this all the time and I wonder who they think is

going around saying it's just wonderful to have an abortion and please, sir, may I have another?

What does it means not to be pro-abortion?

[ScottLand]

66. Apparently, it's anyone who's a liberal.

We disrespect people in the womb, and they wait until they're out of it. I think it's really because they want to feel like they're doing something important with their lives. As I said before, they have no interest in those would-be children as human beings. They just like the idea of being able to make that decision for someone else. Personally, I am vehemently opposed to abortion, especially as a means of birth-control, but I draw the line at thinking I have the right to make that judgement for someone else.

[CTyankee]

67. First of all, abortion is not contraception. It is a back up in case of contraceptive failure

or in some cases lack of having accurate medical information about sex. A first trimester abortion can cost over $500 and, depending on how far away the clinic is, a day of work. It is not without discomfort. Plus, the idea that every woman just blithely trots over to an abortion clinic w/o a care in the world, is demeaning to women and assumes that women are not moral agents.

Where do you stand on Emergency Contraception? The ovum may be fertilized, but has not yet implanted (which is when a pregnancy begins, despite the RW claims that it is at fertilization).

Second, if you are a male, how does being against abortion affect your life? I am truly interested in knowing this. I am not trying to be difficult, I just really want to know. I am also not trying to pry, it's just a philosophical question, really.

Thank you for helping me understand your viewpoint better!

[ScottLand]

68. Well, it affects me because I care. But I stand by what I said before and I do agree with

you as well. I don't see liberals as being pro-abortion just because we're pro-choice. And I don't believe many (if any) women take the situation lightly. Most women struggle with it before, during, and after, and for years. I admit I don't really know enough about it to talk in-depth.

In my original post, I was thinking more of the GOP pandering to the anti-abortion evangelicals without any really thought about the reality of that situation. It's really no different than their stance on unemployment (which affects me much more) that we're pretty much at fault because we're lazy. Gets a lot of applause from their base, but it doesn't really do anything about the real issue.

[CTyankee]

69. thanks for your reply.

For the life of me, I cannot say I am ever anti-abortion (I am, of course, against forced abortion). And I have had 3 pregnancies and 3 births. I have 4 grandchildren. Perhaps because I have had these life experiences I feel strongly that a woman's abortion is none of my business and I will assume that she had her own reasons for ending the pregnancy. And I can never justify feeling that my judgment is superior to hers. I also strongly believe that children should be welcomed into this world by parent or parents with love and with feelings of responsibility for the child's well being. Forcing a woman to give birth against her will, even for such "good" reasons as giving the child up for adoption, can never be tolerated, IMO.

Having said that, I am strongly in favor of sex education for kids, free contraception for all who wish to have it, with abortion a back up to contraception (because some contraception can fail for a variety of reasons and rape is a reality in women's lives). I am also strongly in favor of a host of social/medical programs to help pregnant women who wish to give birth, including generous paid maternity leave.

To me, this is truly a pro-life position.

[ScottLand]

70. I couldn't agree more. Thanks for your insight.

I have two beautiful children (too young for any grandkids yet!) and I cannot imagine my life without them. Have a safe and happy new year!

[Fredge]

50. I agree with the don't have one policy

And I think he should grow a vagina before he thinks he can make a law affecting every woman in the country.

[Ken Burch]

52. Not even for incest? and THIS family was all ready to endorse ol' Rick:

Last edited Sat Dec 31, 2011, 03:12 AM - Edit history (2)

[and-justice-for-all]

58. out of touch with reality as usual...

and what a sick fucking position to have too.

[Quantess]

61. He's going for the extreme anti-choice niche

My guess is, he knows he won't win, but he's hoping wealthy anti-choicers will contribute $$$$$$ to his campaign.