Tue Jun 2, 2015, 09:33 AM

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44 replies	Author	Time	Post
Message auto-removed (Original post)	Name removed	Jun 2015	OP
Got a bridge?	hobbit709	Jun 2015	#1
Yeah, sure, right, Uh huh.	GGJohn	Jun 2015	#2
Message auto-removed	Name removed	Jun 2015	#5
Yeah, sure it does.	GGJohn	Jun 2015	#6
Message auto-removed	Name removed	Jun 2015	#10
Why would the Ukrainians be shooting at a plane coming from BEHIND them? n/t	Adrahil	Jun 2015	#12
Message auto-removed	Name removed	Jun 2015	#21
Dude, at least attempt to change your posting habits when you set up a new account.	NuclearDem	Jun 2015	#33
Who makes new shrapnel for each version of a bomb?	DetlefK	Jun 2015	#3
Message auto-removed	Name removed	Jun 2015	#8
That bit makes sense	sarisataka	Jun 2015	#25
Message auto-removed	Name removed	Jun 2015	#30
I know from experience	sarisataka	Jun 2015	#39
Dear Mr. Morgan	HERVEPA	Jun 2015	#4
And he reminds me of another_poster....	Adrahil	Jun 2015	#13
That's some quite strong clarity of signal...	NuclearDem	Jun 2015	#19
Message auto-removed	Name removed	Jun 2015	#44
everyone knows Russians invaded Ukraine and let one of their dumbass military push the button.	Sunlei	Jun 2015	#7
Message auto-removed	Name removed	Jun 2015	#9
Dude... If you talk about Nazis in Ukraine, you also have to talk about Nazis in Russia.	DetlefK	Jun 2015	#15
Message auto-removed	Name removed	Jun 2015	#28
I'm calling BS	Jesus Malverde	Jun 2015	#11
Strafed? you're kidding right?	Adrahil	Jun 2015	#14
Dutch Government Releases MH17 Documents, Many Redacted	Jesus Malverde	Jun 2015	#16
NONE of that suggests the aircraft was shot down using a gun.	Adrahil	Jun 2015	#17
You should join the media who is asking the Dutch to release the full report.	Jesus Malverde	Jun 2015	#22
Message auto-removed	Name removed	Jun 2015	#32
No, it wasn't.	NuclearDem	Jun 2015	#20
Ok	Jesus Malverde	Jun 2015	#24
A ground attack aircraft like the one the Ukrainians allegedly shot it down with	NuclearDem	Jun 2015	#26
Maybe if our NATO partner the Netherlands releases the full report.	Jesus Malverde	Jun 2015	#29
Dude, the laws of physics aren't going to change upon the release of the report.	NuclearDem	Jun 2015	#31
Do you know	sarisataka	Jun 2015	#42
Irrelevant, considering no variant of the Su-25 can come anywhere near MH17's altitude.	NuclearDem	Jun 2015	#43
Going west, young man? nt	geek tragedy	Jun 2015	#18
.	Jesus Malverde	Jun 2015	#23
Message auto-removed	Name removed	Jun 2015	#35
Of course. Beat you to it above :-)	HERVEPA	Jun 2015	#38
Yep, saw that. It's been months	geek tragedy	Jun 2015	#40
hmmm Putin doesn't want to be involved in Rebels so uses older stuff	PatrynXX	Jun 2015	#27
Message auto-removed	Name removed	Jun 2015	#37
It's intriguing that Putin trolls are so interested in our opinion on DU ...	groundloop	Jun 2015	#34
Message auto-removed	Name removed	Jun 2015	#36
This may be "'deza'"—shorthand for disinformation." (See link in the text.)	Agnosticsherbet	Jun 2015	#41

Response to Name removed (Original post)

Tue Jun 2, 2015, 09:36 AM

hobbit709 (41,694 posts)

1. Got a bridge?

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Response to Name removed (Original post)

Tue Jun 2, 2015, 09:36 AM

GGJohn (9,951 posts)

2. Yeah, sure, right, Uh huh.

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Response to GGJohn (Reply #2)

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Response to Name removed (Reply #5)

Tue Jun 2, 2015, 10:05 AM

GGJohn (9,951 posts)

6. Yeah, sure it does.

RT as a source?

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Response to GGJohn (Reply #6)

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Response to Name removed (Reply #5)

Tue Jun 2, 2015, 10:20 AM

Adrahil (13,340 posts)

12. Why would the Ukrainians be shooting at a plane coming from BEHIND them? n/t

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Response to Adrahil (Reply #12)

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Response to Name removed (Reply #21)

Tue Jun 2, 2015, 11:13 AM

NuclearDem (16,184 posts)

33. Dude, at least attempt to change your posting habits when you set up a new account.

You might even last for a while!

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Response to Name removed (Original post)

Tue Jun 2, 2015, 09:56 AM

DetlefK (16,015 posts)

3. Who makes new shrapnel for each version of a bomb?

IT'S A FUCKING BOMB SHOOTING FUCKING SHRAPNEL!!!!

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Response to DetlefK (Reply #3)

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Response to DetlefK (Reply #3)

Tue Jun 2, 2015, 10:48 AM

sarisataka (13,880 posts)

25. That bit makes sense

Warhead improvements are often the reason for a new version of a missile.

Where the story breaks down is the assumption that a military disposes of old versions of a missile when a newer version becomes available. Those things cost a lot of rubles. It's not like a gallon of milk, when it reaches its expiration date (milk and missiles both have them) you don't throw it away. The missile gets earmarked to be fired for training...

Or given to allies/proxies.

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Response to sarisataka (Reply #25)

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Response to Name removed (Reply #30)

Tue Jun 2, 2015, 11:23 AM

sarisataka (13,880 posts)

39. I know from experience

that what is listed on official inventories doesn't always match what is in inventory. I have carried and used weapons that, according to "official sources", were no longer used by U.S. forces.

The situation is so muddled and there really is no neutral party involved, that I don't trust anything said by anyone. There is lots of circumstantial evidence but nothing concrete that has not been tainted.

Still this is not a court of law so I don't need proof for me to believe who I think is responsible. OTH my opinion may be tainted since I did an operation with Ukrainian special forces during the Balkan crisis. I was surprise at their professionalism and competence.

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Response to Name removed (Original post)

Tue Jun 2, 2015, 09:57 AM

HERVEPA (6,107 posts)

4. Dear Mr. Morgan

I suggest you go west young man, go west

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Response to HERVEPA (Reply #4)

Tue Jun 2, 2015, 10:21 AM

Adrahil (13,340 posts)

13. And he reminds me of another_poster....

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Response to HERVEPA (Reply #4)

Tue Jun 2, 2015, 10:42 AM

NuclearDem (16,184 posts)

19. That's some quite strong clarity of signal...

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Response to NuclearDem (Reply #19)

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Response to Name removed (Original post)

Tue Jun 2, 2015, 10:07 AM

Sunlei (22,651 posts)

7. everyone knows Russians invaded Ukraine and let one of their dumbass military push the button.

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Response to Sunlei (Reply #7)

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Response to Name removed (Reply #9)

Tue Jun 2, 2015, 10:24 AM

DetlefK (16,015 posts)

15. Dude... If you talk about Nazis in Ukraine, you also have to talk about Nazis in Russia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nashi_(youth_movement)

Nashi has been accused of recruiting skinheads and local hooligans to intimidate rival youth groups.[21] Such activities caused Gavin Knight, an editor for the New Statesman, to draw the conclusion that "Nashi’s true function was as a personality cult for Putin whose job was intimidate, bully and harass his opponents."[46] The movement has evoked comparisons with the Hitler Youth in the mainstream media[7] to the extent that Nashi, together with other pro-Putin youth organizations, were derogatively nicknamed Putinjugend.

Meanwhile Russia passed a bill on 22nd of May that gives the Attorney-General the power to unilaterally destroy any organization or corporation at will without a trial in court.
Ah, the smell of freedom and being way better than the tyrannical, decadent West.

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Response to DetlefK (Reply #15)

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Response to Name removed (Original post)

Tue Jun 2, 2015, 10:19 AM

Jesus Malverde (10,274 posts)

11. I'm calling BS

I've seen photos of the wreckage it was clearly strafed and shot down by another plane. Whose? Who knows!?!

I'm not sure why the Dutch didn't release the unredacted report. I'm guessing it didn't fit the right narrative. Best leave it fuzzy.

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Response to Jesus Malverde (Reply #11)

Tue Jun 2, 2015, 10:22 AM

Adrahil (13,340 posts)

14. Strafed? you're kidding right?

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Response to Adrahil (Reply #14)

Tue Jun 2, 2015, 10:30 AM

Jesus Malverde (10,274 posts)

16. Dutch Government Releases MH17 Documents, Many Redacted

THE HAGUE, Netherlands — The Dutch government released dozens of documents Tuesday about the aftermath of the downing of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, but much of the information was redacted.

One of the Dutch broadcasters that requested the information be made public, RTL News, said it would protest against the number of redactions and take the government to court if necessary to compel it to reveal more details.

"We want the relevant facts so that a serious reconstruction can be made of the Cabinet's performance" after the crash, RTL's deputy editor, Pieter Klein, said on the broadcaster's website.

Flight 17 crashed in eastern Ukraine on July 17, killing all 298 people on board. Dutch crash investigators and police are probing the cause, which is believed to be a surface-to-air missile strike.

Prime Minister Mark Rutte's government is coming under increasing pressure to reveal all it knew about the risks of allowing passenger planes to fly over conflict-torn eastern Ukraine last year.

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2015/02/10/world/europe/ap-eu-netherlands-ukraine-plane.html?_r=0j

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Response to Jesus Malverde (Reply #16)

Tue Jun 2, 2015, 10:34 AM

Adrahil (13,340 posts)

17. NONE of that suggests the aircraft was shot down using a gun.

And the shrapnel pattern certainly does not suggest a gun attack. Looks just like missile shrapnel.

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Response to Adrahil (Reply #17)

Tue Jun 2, 2015, 10:45 AM

Jesus Malverde (10,274 posts)

22. You should join the media who is asking the Dutch to release the full report.

American aviation lawyer Jerry Skinner predicted it was unlikely full details would ever be released by the Dutch Government.

“The purpose of the official investigation is to establish a very technical and stilted probable cause that will provide for more safety in the future,” said Mr Skinner, who secured a $2.7 billion payment from Libya, for the 270 victims of the 1988 Lockerbie bombing.

“They don’t point fingers, they don’t publish things they’re asked not to, it’s all scripted, it’s all rehearsed.

“It’s always a slanted process.”

http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/secrecy-surrounds-mh17-disaster/story-fnizu68q-1227216038764

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Response to Jesus Malverde (Reply #22)

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Response to Jesus Malverde (Reply #11)

Tue Jun 2, 2015, 10:43 AM

NuclearDem (16,184 posts)

20. No, it wasn't.

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Response to NuclearDem (Reply #20)

Tue Jun 2, 2015, 10:48 AM

Jesus Malverde (10,274 posts)

24. Ok

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Response to Jesus Malverde (Reply #24)

Tue Jun 2, 2015, 10:51 AM

NuclearDem (16,184 posts)

26. A ground attack aircraft like the one the Ukrainians allegedly shot it down with

can't reach MH17's cruising altitude dry, let alone loaded down with weapons, nevermind getting into guns range.

Seriously, this has been discussed to death, and the only people clinging to the "Ukrainian aircraft shot it down" meme are the Russian media and the dupes who believe them.

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Response to NuclearDem (Reply #26)

Tue Jun 2, 2015, 11:02 AM

Jesus Malverde (10,274 posts)