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Wed Jun 1, 2016, 05:31 PM

About the upcoming transition to general election season

This discussion thread was locked by Skinner (a host of the Announcements group).

There has been a lot of talk on DU lately about the fact that we are nearing the end of the primaries. As you probably know this issue has been raised a few times in the Ask the Administrators forum. I figure it might be helpful to re-post some of my comments out here in the Announcements forum so they get a wider audience.


Timing (link)

After the primaries on June 7 (California, New Jersey, etc.) we will announce that the primaries are nearing an end, and members will have one more week to "get it out of their systems."

The final Democratic presidential primary is Tuesday, June 14 in Washington DC. People will have one last glorious day of primary season on June 15, and then Democratic Underground general election season begins on Thursday, June 16.


What to expect (link)

I think a lot of people have the wrong idea, and are going to be disappointed.

We have no intention of purging anyone, and we have no intention of disallowing good-faith discussion of the issues. I think most people are going to be fine with that. But there are going to be a a few people (including both Hillary and Bernie supporters) who are going to be disappointed because the massive crackdown they have been hoping for does not come to pass.

Most people think the big change coming in general election season is that people on this website will need to stop bashing Hillary Clinton. Yes, that's part of it -- but it's not the only thing and it's definitely not the most important thing. The really big change coming in general election season is that people on this website will need to stop bashing each other.

Throughout this primary season we have been in a death spiral of declining standards. So we are going to institute some rules, and we will expect everyone to follow those rules, and we will expect everyone to enforce those rules when they serve on juries. The rules shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone -- they are mostly common sense, and they are basically the same rules we had for years when we had moderators: No personal attacks, no broad-brush group attacks, no bigotry, no right-wing smears or sources against Democrats, no advocating for spoilers or republicans, no meta-discussion, etc.

I am just so tired of people bashing each other and bashing Democrats on this website. I know the hardcore partisans will try to paint this whole thing through the Hillary vs Bernie lens, and drive that wedge as hard as they can, but that is just so not where I am at right now. I don't care who anyone has supported in the primaries -- I really don't. As long as you treat your fellow DU members with respect, stop tearing down Democratic public figures (including Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders and everyone else), and don't advocate for Donald Trump or some lost-cause third-party spoiler candidate, then you'll be fine.


What criticism of Hillary Clinton will be permitted? (link)

Unfortunately, there is not going to be a hard line between "fine" and "not fine."

But basically, I think it comes down to this:

If you are criticizing Hillary Clinton because you want to help her succeed, then you'll be fine. But if you are criticizing Hillary Clinton because you want to tear her down, then you won't be fine.

Now, I'm not a mind reader and I can't know for certain what everyone's intentions are. But I think that if the criticism is coming from a place of "wanting her to succeed" then that will be reflected in the tone and substance of the post. If the criticism is coming from a place of "wanting to tear her down" then that will be reflected in the tone and substance of the post. If you are here on DU then you are supposed to be supporting the Democratic nominee against the Republican nominee in the general election -- it shouldn't be very hard to write a post in a way that sounds like it.

I believe that it will be possible to discuss every substantive issue that DUers might want to discuss.


Anything else?

This should come as a surprise to exactly no one. Every four years when there is a presidential campaign Democratic Underground expects our members to support the nominee. It is written into our Terms of Service, which you agreed to when you joined:

Winning elections is important — therefore, advocating in favor of Republican nominees or in favor of third-party spoiler candidates that could split the vote and throw an election to our conservative opponents is never permitted on Democratic Underground. ... For presidential contests, election season begins when both major-party nominees become clear. For non-presidential contests, election season begins on Labor Day. Everyone here on DU needs to work together to elect more Democrats and fewer Republicans to all levels of American government. If you are bashing, trashing, undermining, or depressing turnout for our candidates during election season, we'll assume you are rooting for the other side.

We will be providing more details in the near future.

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Skinner Jun 2016 OP
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Response to Skinner (Original post)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 05:35 PM

1. Thanks for the post.

I like the tone you have set, and hope we as a community can get there.

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Response to TransitJohn (Reply #1)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 05:45 PM

44. I told people there would not be mass bannings

 

Banning many, as so many H supporters have been drooling over, would have been a bad business decision.

The question to be answered is: if the DoJ brings charges against Hillary, will we be able to discuss it freely?

And it is quite evident that the primary is not officially over until the convention. So this is just a DU unofficial call (primaries done) which has zero bearing on anything outside of DU?

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Response to RobertEarl (Reply #44)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 06:04 PM

117. The question is not going to come up. The question is: Can everyone unite and get out voters, so

many voters that the next President has a majority in the House and Senate? That is what matters. It can be done. If there really is a political revolution afoot, then it will be easy.

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Response to L. Coyote (Reply #117)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 06:29 PM

198. The political revolution is to change the status quo in the Dem Party, not to accept it. n/t

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Response to JimDandy (Reply #198)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 07:52 PM

328. This is Democratic Underground

Get it? DEMOCRATIC being the operative word.

This is not Revolution Underground or Socialist Underground, it's Democratic Underground and we advocate for Democrats. When the primary is over, it's over and we can only choose between the Democratic candidate and the Republican one, and guess which one Democratic Underground members should be advocating for. Here's a hint; DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND.

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Response to louis c (Reply #328)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 08:15 PM

350. Exactly, this is Democratic Underground

A place for Democrats, liberals, progressives, Greens, anybody who supports the goals of the Democratic Party.

Democratic goals, rules, policies, laws, platforms, candidates and office-holders are subject to CHANGE. Progressives are ready, willing and able to fight for that change.

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Response to JimDandy (Reply #350)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 08:45 PM

369. Ultimately, this is whatever place Skinner decides it is.

He owns the site. If he takes Democratic Underground to mean Democrats who build sustainable communities literally underground, then that's what it means.

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Response to JimDandy (Reply #350)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 10:31 PM

443. As long as you don't bash the Dem Party in order to harm it. Suggestions should be welcome.

People who are ultra critical of the Party and obviously can't stand it, go to another site or start a new site. I honestly don't understand the Green Party people who are trying to recruit here.

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Response to louis c (Reply #328)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 08:27 PM

360. "underground" with respect to what, though?

Republicans only? Republicans in power? The "establishment"? Corporate-backed politics? DINOs?

Sorry but UNDERGROUND is the operative word to me.
"Democratic" is just obvious, at least the broad-stroke political leanings of the members.

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Response to yodermon (Reply #360)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 10:39 PM

445. Democrats who are for the party and for the nominees to be elected. I don't think Dino is a term

that is going to help us unite and work together.

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Response to louis c (Reply #328)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 09:37 AM

611. louis c—I've seen what election ballots look like.

 

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Response to JimDandy (Reply #198)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 04:42 AM

557. Tiny demurrer. IMO, the revolution is to change the status quo in the US

(if change is at all possible at this stage).

For example, I don't care who succeeds in raising the cap for OASDI, as long as it's raised. I don't care who puts the brakes on destruction of the environment, as long as the brakes are put on. And so forth.

Is the Democratic Party the likeliest to accomplish those things? Maybe. I was once sure of that.

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Response to L. Coyote (Reply #117)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 09:57 PM

429. Skinner knows that Hillary is going to be our nominee, there was no headline about Bernie in the GE.

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Response to L. Coyote (Reply #117)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 10:22 PM

439. Like that picture and your attitude.

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Response to kerry-is-my-prez (Reply #439)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 12:29 AM

483. Pass it around.

We all know what horrible things happen when the Rs steal the White House. We'll know who the trolls are soon enough. They won't be able to hide under a candidate's banner any longer.

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Response to RobertEarl (Reply #44)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 06:52 PM

244. You can discuss it if you're not trashing her in the process.

It's a slippery slope. It's wise to just not go there.

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Response to RobertEarl (Reply #44)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 08:44 PM

368. I think the post above makes it crystal clear.

Last edited Thu Jun 2, 2016, 02:16 AM - Edit history (1)

This would probably be ok:

"Hillary was just indicted. How can we fight this so she can still get elected?"

This would probably not be ok:

"Hillary was just indicted. Quick! Let's replace her with Bernie!"

Yes, that's putting it basically, but the idea is that what we're discussing, even critically, has an end game of helping the nominee win the presidency. And, as Skinner pointed out, these are the terms of service we agreed to when joining.

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Response to barrow-wight (Reply #368)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 02:15 AM

516. Still get elected?

if she is indicted?

Very difficult to get behind that.

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Response to marions ghost (Reply #516)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 02:16 AM

517. I would prefer to cross that bridge when we come to it.

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Response to barrow-wight (Reply #517)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 02:24 AM

522. You made the projection...

and so we are crossing the bridge in imagination already.

"Hillary got indicted, thankfully we have Bernie" might be the way a lot of people would see it.

I don't get why you see that as disloyal to the Dem party.

An indictment would cause her negatives to go below zero.

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Response to marions ghost (Reply #522)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 02:32 AM

527. It's irrelevant how I see it at this point.

Skinner has made the choice that this shall not happen here. You will either go along with the program or you won't.

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Response to barrow-wight (Reply #527)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 03:00 AM

530. You brought up the hypothetical of an indictment

--which Skinner has not addressed. If Hillary were indicted it could be a game-changer here and everywhere. Or it might not. And that would say a lot about Democratic party values in general.

I'm not really worried about DU compliance. I accept that should Hillary be the official nominee, the owners of DU will not tolerate tearing her down. That is their position. But that does not mean that I would have to actively support her. I leave her to slip on her own petard.

I don't think you really want to discuss the point you made--that we should all support Hillary even if there is an indictment. You do think people would just look the other way? Seriously?
That seems very naive.

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Response to marions ghost (Reply #530)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 03:44 AM

536. He has addressed it.

Like anything else, he's made it clear that nothing should be raised as a way to beat her down but rather as a way to offer solutions for her to succeed.

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Response to barrow-wight (Reply #536)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 03:47 AM

539. Where has Skinner said

that he supports her if there is an indictment?

You really think nothing changes in voters' minds with an indictment of Hillary Clinton?

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Response to marions ghost (Reply #539)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 04:30 AM

548. Until such a thing actually happens,

It's clear he's not going to want people constantly bringing up the potential of it as a weapon against her but then just wait till the 16th.

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Response to barrow-wight (Reply #368)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 03:38 AM

534. No One Indicted Can Win Let Alone Keep Running

 

She would have to resign as nominee. 99.99% of people know that so this scenario makes no sense.

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Response to billhicks76 (Reply #534)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 03:45 AM

537. Well then I guess we shall see what happens.

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Response to barrow-wight (Reply #537)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 04:22 AM

545. I'm Assuming She Won't Be Indicted

 

But if you want to make a case she wouldn't resign if she did then we probably have nothing left to talk about as that argument would have zero support from anyone on either side of the primary race. It's a fairy tale analysis. Maybe a populist candidate that everyone sees as being screwed or set up by the establishment could withstand such a thing...maybe. But definitely not a former presidential family member.

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Response to billhicks76 (Reply #545)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 04:31 AM

549. The only fairytale

Is the constant hypothesis of her indictment. It's not going to happen and it's the talking about it as a weapon that skinner is disallowing.

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Response to barrow-wight (Reply #549)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 02:08 PM

667. Weapon?

 

Chill out.

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Response to RobertEarl (Reply #44)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 09:36 AM

609. Why do fictional "indictments" always come up in discussions like this?

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Response to George II (Reply #609)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 10:26 AM

624. It's last hope house. The very last chance.

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Response to Skinner (Original post)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 05:35 PM

2. K & R

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Response to Skinner (Original post)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 05:35 PM

3. It will be nice to focus on Trump, for sure n/t

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Response to Godhumor (Reply #3)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 05:53 PM

73. Hear hear.

I supported Bernie in the primaries. Donated money. But come June 19th, I'm a Hillary man. Someone that tears her down or stays home on Election Day as a protest of some kind is voting for a Trump presidency.
We're all on the same team here. This is going to be a difficult 5 months. At some point all of us are going to spitting nail for one thing or another. But for the future of our country, and, really, humanity, we've got to support Hillary and each other.

Hillary 2016!!

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Response to christx30 (Reply #73)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 06:58 PM

256. Thank you, christx!

Wonderful, sane post. I remember how bummed I was in 2008 when Hillary conceded. But thanks largely to her people including me rallied around Obama. He's been a great president!

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Response to christx30 (Reply #73)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 07:16 PM

288. ...

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Response to christx30 (Reply #73)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 08:56 PM

381. Amen!

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Response to christx30 (Reply #73)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 01:09 AM

491. Mahalo, christx!

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Response to christx30 (Reply #73)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 01:16 AM

495. +1

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Response to christx30 (Reply #73)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 01:27 AM

498. Thank-you christx

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Response to christx30 (Reply #73)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 02:25 AM

523. Best make that June 16th instead,

but thanks for being part of the team.

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Response to christx30 (Reply #73)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 01:55 PM

666. Yes, indeed. I agree completely.

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Response to Godhumor (Reply #3)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 12:32 AM

485. If he is the nominee., I still think that won't happen, too demented and all.

But hey, they nominated the other demented actor, Ronnie something, the one who starred with a chimp.

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Response to Skinner (Original post)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 05:35 PM

4. Will those of us who have been purged from the jury rolls

for unknown reasons be reinstated?

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Response to Blue_In_AK (Reply #4)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 05:38 PM

15. Yes.

Everyone who lost their eligibility will regain their eligibility for jury service when we institute the new system.

But the minimum standards for everyone to serve on juries is going to be tightened up -- we want people to feel confident that they aren't being judged by trolls who just showed up today.

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Response to Skinner (Reply #15)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 05:44 PM

38. I could never figure out why I was purged after the middle of March.

I've had one hidden post since I joined in November 2004, tried to be completely unbiased and fair, frequently letting posts stand that I disagreed with if they weren't obnoxious, always gave an explanation for my decision and usually fell on the "right" side in 6-1 or 5-2 decisions or one side or the other of 4-3 decisions. I've been a star member consistently. I know I questioned why I was being called every day, sometimes twice, but I didn't mean for you to eliminate me completely.

I'll admit, Skinner - you kind of hurt my feelings.

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Response to Blue_In_AK (Reply #38)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 06:39 PM

220. Your profile says 100% chance of serving on juries

as does mine.

Yet I haven't been called to a jury for some time.

???

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Response to mnhtnbb (Reply #220)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 07:24 PM

296. I get a jury notice every other day

Would you like half of mine?

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Response to LastLiberal in PalmSprings (Reply #296)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 08:22 PM

357. I sometimes get multiple jury requests in the same day!

And I am often asked within seconds of logging on. I only decline when I'm on a short break at work and checking DU from my phone.

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Response to femmedem (Reply #357)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 08:41 PM

366. I get two a day every day because I sign on in the middle of the day when people are at work

and late at night when a lot of people are sleeping.
I think I am on when a lot of people are not. It has slowed lately in that once or twice I will only be called once a day, and I used to be called 3 times a day or it could be that I am still trying to climb out of debt and a buck is a big deal right now so I have no been a star member for a little over a week. soon.

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Response to Blue_In_AK (Reply #38)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 07:21 PM

292. I've wondered about this, also.

I'm not '100%' because I can't afford to contribute anymore - but in over twelve years I've never had a hidden post and have always tried to play a fair and even hand on juries. My decisions, like yours, were most often with the majority (and I know that because I've kept every jury decision I've been on).
I am a Sanders supporter, though.
I'm not sure what criteria was applied, but it does feel like a lot of people were tarred with a very broad brush. This is the first time I've seen any acknowledgement that there was a purge of the jury pool, so that's interesting.

No matter. It's Skinner's board and he can do what he wants.

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Response to Blue_In_AK (Reply #38)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 09:23 PM

411. I went from one every day, sometimes even 2

I always tried to be fair and a couple times I declined if I thought I couldn't be. But I got ticked at some of the nasty posts against Bernie people that were getting left up so it started getting harder to be as fair on the other side. I still don't think I made any controversial decisions but I guess Skinner culled me too because I haven't been called for awhile either even though it still says 100%. Thing is, I don't think the Hillary people are getting eliminated which is what really sucks.

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Response to Skinner (Reply #15)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 05:45 PM

41. WoW! This happens? we want people to feel confident that they aren't being judged by trolls who"

 

we want people to feel confident that they aren't being judged by trolls who just showed up today.


Sounds creepy!

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Response to Skinner (Reply #15)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 06:37 PM

214. Everything Seems Fair To Me

 

And if we criticize a candidate it would only be to encourage them to improve something to be the better candidate to win the election...that should be expected. I personally believe that no matter what youre doing to win in anything you have to set yourself apart and appeal to what people really want. I hope we get the reforms at the highest level of office we need.

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Response to Skinner (Reply #15)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 11:08 PM

456. Any say on what's going on with people who have racked up dozens of hides?

 

'Cause to be frank, I'm not any more comfortable with being judged by trolls who have been here for years than I am being judged by trolls who signed up ten minutes ago.

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #456)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 08:55 AM

590. Since the amnesty they've really felt free to rack up the hides

Some even getting FFR'ed repeatedly since the amnesty.

But that must be the result of alert stalking and jury stacking and not piss poor, trollish behavior.

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Response to Skinner (Original post)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 05:35 PM

5. Here's the problem. Will "both major party nominees" really become clear on June 16?

 

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Response to highprincipleswork (Reply #5)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 05:37 PM

13. It's clear now.

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Response to wyldwolf (Reply #13)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 07:23 PM

294. No IT IS NOT CLEAR>>> As The Convention Is When And Where ALL Will Become CLEAR, NOT Before!

You see there IS the matter of the Super Delegates having to actually execute their vote and each taking responsibility for the potential associated consequences which are very real relative to each individual's choice. There is a lot of "clutter" surrounding this nomination (which cannot be ignored) and plenty of potential ball dropping of a legal sort prior to July 25. Consequent to these multiple overhanging matters, there will be no chance for the path to the nomination becoming "clear" prior to 25 July 2016.

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Response to CorporatistNation (Reply #294)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 07:42 PM

316. It's very clear now

Decades-old rules and procedures will not be overturned or ignored.

Sorry.

No, actually, I'm not sorry.

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Response to wyldwolf (Reply #316)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 07:50 PM

324. Some People Can Foresee Problems When Others Cannot... Here Is One "Collection" Of Problems...

e.g., MSNBC To the deniers... Watch THIS Video... It is not comforting to think that she may well be the Democratic Nominee...

Hillary really betrayed Andrea Mitchell... The entire context of this report was of a solemn nature... A Funeral so to speak...

Andrea Mitchell "I do not see this report as ...ANYTHING BUT... DEVASTATING!"

Chuck Todd "After this I don't think that she could get confirmed for Attorney General!"

Lots of FIBBING by Hillary here.. for more than a year!

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Response to CorporatistNation (Reply #324)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 07:56 PM

336. Mika is not part of the nominating process

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Response to wyldwolf (Reply #336)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 09:05 PM

392. LOL!

The whole of the MSM is a part of the nominating process. And that is PRECISELY the points Bernie has been trying to wake folks up to!

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Response to Plucketeer (Reply #392)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 04:34 AM

551. LOL!

No they're not

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Response to wyldwolf (Reply #551)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 08:31 AM

588. Enjoy your fantasy eom

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Response to Plucketeer (Reply #588)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 09:42 AM

614. It appears it's the Bernie followers living in a fantasy world.

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Response to wyldwolf (Reply #614)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 10:03 AM

618. OK.......

BECAUSE I acknowledge your superior intellect. BECAUSE I didn't realize you possess a crystal ball. BECAUSE it's now obvious I'm a mental lightweight - I'm bowing to you - by conceding the last word to you. Go ahead - post it. And you have my permission to wear a smug grin (for the length of time of your choosing) with the confidence that you've put me in my place. Post your last word. I promise I won't reply.

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Response to CorporatistNation (Reply #324)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 03:56 AM

541. This isn't your website. Skinner gets to decide. n/t

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Response to wyldwolf (Reply #316)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 03:42 AM

535. Quit Trying To Frame Reality For Us

 

A winner knows to keep their mouth shut especially before results are actually tallied whatever the contest is. You do not act like a winner. Neither candidate has enough votes to clinch.

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Response to billhicks76 (Reply #535)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 04:35 AM

552. Someone needs a frame reality for you

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Response to wyldwolf (Reply #552)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 02:23 PM

671. As Long As It's Not You

 

I'm very confident my world view and experience surpasses yours based on your childish comments and baseless attacks. I still do not agree with all your NSA defending either. Democrats believe in liberty and Freedom last I checked.

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Response to billhicks76 (Reply #671)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 02:49 PM

678. Perhaps

but your knowledge and experience in electoral politics and nominating procedures obviously don't.

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Response to wyldwolf (Reply #678)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 05:49 PM

697. I'll Be Voting Democrat in Nov No Matter What

 

If I think someone isn't acting democratic enough then it's on me and my people to influence that nominee to adjust themselves.

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Response to billhicks76 (Reply #697)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 06:08 PM

699. Good. Because it doesn't really matter how little you know about the process...

... as long as you can press a button.

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Response to wyldwolf (Reply #699)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 07:15 PM

702. I Easily Know As Much As You

 

So I would stop patting yourself on the back. You're a huge problem to civil discourse I've noticed. All we have to do is be able to press a button? In my opinion you are taking votes away from Hillary with that attitude and perhaps you are the one that needs to be censored. You aren't doing your candidate any favors. You are an arrogant human being according to your own posts and proud of it. Luckily I don't have to put up with your insults. Good luck with real life.

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Response to billhicks76 (Reply #535)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 08:17 AM

586. Be careful with that chip on your shoulder

I would hate to see you get splinters

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Response to Cary (Reply #586)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 02:20 PM

669. Typical Threats

 

Good luck winning people over that way.

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Response to billhicks76 (Reply #669)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 05:24 PM

696. Threats?

???

Dude, you need a grip.

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Response to Cary (Reply #696)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 07:11 PM

701. Over People Saying Better Be Careful

 

And people have been threatened all day by smug, arrogant Clintonites salivating at the false notion that they will get to purge Bernie supporters from this site if they dont step on the eggshells properly. Its 100% apparent that IF Clinton gets selected her followers will be derelict and not know how to mend fences or bring people together which spells disaster in Nov.Whether they like it or not you cannot win an election with just the base or in this case half the base.

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Response to billhicks76 (Reply #701)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 09:53 PM

704. Wow.

Like I said you need a grip.

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Response to CorporatistNation (Reply #294)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 08:47 PM

374. And when you own the website, you can determine that.

For Skinner and the vast majority of the media, this will be decided on the 16th.

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Response to CorporatistNation (Reply #294)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 10:47 PM

450. It says the 17th, NOT the convention. If you aren't happy, you may want to go to a Sanders site.

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Response to CorporatistNation (Reply #294)

Wed Jun 8, 2016, 11:51 AM

712. It's CLEAR as far as DU is concerned.

Of course you may continue to be as unclear as you want off-site.

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Response to highprincipleswork (Reply #5)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 05:38 PM

14. +1!!!! n/t

 

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Response to baran (Reply #14)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 05:55 PM

82. Jury: My 3yo alerted in this while playing with my iPad.

Please ignore alert.

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Response to Quackers (Reply #82)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 06:01 PM

107. lol

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Response to Quackers (Reply #82)


Response to Quackers (Reply #82)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 08:10 PM

346. Would your 3 year old....

...like to serve on a DU jury? Can't get the younger generations involved in politics, and civic duty, early enough!


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Response to highprincipleswork (Reply #5)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 05:39 PM

17. Yes.

It's been apparent for a long time now.

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Response to Skinner (Reply #17)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 05:49 PM

62. Only to Hillary supporters. But the ACTUAL nominee can not be known until the convention.

I put up a post today which had a point regarding this.
Here is the relevant quote

If a Democratic primary candidate can win 59 percent of the Party’s “pledged” (primary- and caucus-won) delegates or more, the primary is decided by pledged delegates; if a Democratic primary candidate fails to meet that threshold, they are considered by DNC electoral processes to be a weak front-runner and the nomination is finally decided, instead, by “superdelegates” — who can express support for a candidate at any time, but cannot commit themselves to anyone (i.e., cast a binding vote for any candidate) until the Democratic National Convention in July; superdelegates are unlike pledged delegates in this regard because, while pledged delegates also do not vote until the Party’s convention, they cannot change their votes from what their state’s voting results pledged them to be — though it has been argued by some that in fact they can change their votes at the Convention, with this argument most recently having been advanced by Hillary Rodham Clinton in 2008.

(http://www.huffingtonpost.com/seth-abramson/how-to-explain-the-sanders_b_10206250.html)

If you choose to impose your bias on the entire site, you should at least realize that is just what it is, but don't expect people who know better to accept it for anything other than what it is -- authoritarian.

Base your policy on fact or do as you please, and the facts are printed above.
Show us who you are.


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Response to pdsimdars (Reply #62)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 05:59 PM

96. It seem to me

that is the opinion of the author, do you have any other proof that it is indeed true?

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Response to pdsimdars (Reply #62)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 06:02 PM

111. Your post reminds me of anti-vaxxer argument

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Response to Renew Deal (Reply #111)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 06:11 PM

147. Your post reminds me of your hosting skills.

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Response to pdsimdars (Reply #62)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 06:04 PM

118. Skinner pretty much gave you guys everything you want

No bannings, some criticism allowed, and you're still crying. She has been the presumptive nominee for a long time, more pledged delegates, and a significant lead in popular vote. After the primaries it's over, period.

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Response to vdogg (Reply #118)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 06:15 PM

159. The post is wrong.

It's not like pledged delegates are gone and supers decide. They still count.

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Response to pdsimdars (Reply #62)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 06:10 PM

145. Juror 7 has an opinion.

On Wed Jun 1, 2016, 06:53 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

Only to Hillary supporters. But the ACTUAL nominee can not be known until the convention.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1013&pid=5895

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Unnecessary attacks: "invent any fantasy you want," "your bias," "authoritarian" -- this is totally uncalled for in this thread.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Wed Jun 1, 2016, 07:07 PM, and the Jury voted 0-7 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: This is not a personal insult or treat to anyone, it looks more like censorship.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Get out of here with this weak alert. Debate the merits, don't silence a, franky, level headed and fact-driven post.

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #145)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 06:29 PM

200. Thank you juror #7. There seems to be a lot of censorship on this "democratic" site.

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Response to pdsimdars (Reply #200)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 08:50 PM

377. This is a privately owned site that promotes Democrats

Why is that so hard to understand?

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Response to pdsimdars (Reply #200)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 09:04 PM

390. How is this privately owned and run forum "democratic"? Perhaps a review of the About DU page is in

order. So many DUers are confused about what DU is and isn't.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=aboutus

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Response to uppityperson (Reply #390)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 09:27 AM

603. It's OK, if you want to make this a fantasy site, no problem. I don't own it. But I do own my

brain and I have quite a good one. Those Boeing planes you probably have flown on have some of my GOOD BRAIN THINKING in their software.

I have a pretty good notion of what is rational and what is fantasy. Those rules state how the nominee is decided. If you can't understand them, or don't like them for some reason, you have that right. But don't try to convince rational people to believe your fantasy. Because that is what it is, fantasy pure and simple.

Hillary will NOT have 59% of the pledged delegates before the convention and therefore BY THE STANDARD she is NOT the nominee until the vote at the convention. To pretend otherwise is NONSENSE.

You can participate in the group hallucination but I don't. It is not real.

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Response to pdsimdars (Reply #603)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 11:02 AM

632. I'm not sure you put that in the right place

Strong Bernie supporter here who had replied that with the fact that this is privately owned forum the that can set up rules.

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Response to uppityperson (Reply #632)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 12:20 PM

654. I have NEVER said you can't set up the rules. You have made that up out of thin air.

what I have done is try to interject some THOUGHT into that decision.
You know, people often like to include FACTS in their decision making. Guess I was expecting a higher thinking class of people.

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Response to pdsimdars (Reply #654)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 12:22 PM

655. Again, wtf? I can't set up rules because I'm not Admin. Again with the snarky insults without

much in common with my previous post beyond clicking the reply link.



Strong Bernie supporter who realizes Admin can make whatever rules they want.

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Response to pdsimdars (Reply #654)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 03:35 PM

688. You're not interjecting thought, you're clinging to irrational bias

Your line of thinking is essentially a middle ground logical fallacy. "The nominee isn't chosen until the convention, therefore we don't know who the nominee will be".

Incorrect.

Just because it isn't set in stone doesn't mean it could break either way. I could throw a coin up in the air and it could land and bounce around and end up resting on its edge. The chances of it are minuscule, but there is nonetheless a chance. But if we were making a plan about how to proceed on a matter where time was of the essence, it would make sense to proceed on the presumption that the coin will not land on its edge. Someone saying "but it might! It might!!! You don't know that it won't!!!" isn't being thoughtful and rational, they are just being stubborn in not accepting the reality of the situation.

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Response to pdsimdars (Reply #200)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 10:39 AM

627. All 7 jurors rightly said LEAVE IT ALONE.. Therefore you weren't "censored."

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #145)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 06:57 PM

254. Amen to that!! Glad to see a 0-7 smackdown.

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Response to pdsimdars (Reply #62)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 07:15 PM

286. Just about every

Bernie supporter I know (in real life) admits it's over at this point. And all of them plan on supporting Hillary. Every single one.

Now I'm not talking about masses of people but around 20.

This is the only place I've ever seen Bernie supporters refusing to support her because they know that would be electing Trump.

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Response to complain jane (Reply #286)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 07:41 PM

315. You can add me to your count.

I support Bernie and will support him up until a nominee is chosen at the convention. Once a nominee (still hoping for a miracle and seeing Bernie become the nominee) is chosen I will support that nominee. Come November, if you don't have a (D) after your name on the ballot, I will NOT vote for you. If you have the (D) you will have my vote.

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Response to complain jane (Reply #286)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 09:08 AM

594. Look, I just posted what the standard is. If you want to rationalize or make excuses, that is

your business. I don't care. But the FACT is that unless Hillary has 59% of the pledged delegates before the convention, then she is not really the nominee until the convention.

Make up whatever fantasy you feel comfortable with but at least you have been shown the actual rules.

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Response to complain jane (Reply #286)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 10:46 AM

629. The fat lady doesn't sing until the convention next month


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Response to pdsimdars (Reply #62)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 08:48 PM

375. Authoritarian?

He owns the website. He had the authority from the moment we walked in the door. And that's how it should be.

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Response to barrow-wight (Reply #375)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 12:40 AM

487. Anyone who thinks they can start an equivalent site, best of luck!

This place did not happen overnight!

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Response to L. Coyote (Reply #487)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 02:17 AM

518. I don't imagine it did.

It's a hell of a lot more interesting than some of those other sites I've seen.

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Response to pdsimdars (Reply #62)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 09:59 PM

430. Ahem....

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Response to Adrahil (Reply #430)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 09:16 AM

596. Heh heh....

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Response to pdsimdars (Reply #62)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 01:30 AM

500. That's the thing. The writer of that article lied about how the process works.

The reality is that there is always has a vote at the convention by all delegates, even if one candidate has 100% of the pledged delegates. They don't cancel the vote and send the superdelegates home if somebody has secured at least 59% of the pledged delegates. In other words, the "actual nominee" is never decided before the convention. Hence the existence of the term "presumptive nominee".

For example, in 2004 John Kerry had 75% of the pledged delegates after the last primaries concluded. He still wasn't the "actual nominee" until he was actually nominated at the convention at the end of July.

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Response to Lord Magus (Reply #500)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 09:06 AM

593. You obviously didn't read with comprehension. The authore never asserted that.

It says that if EITHER of the candidates gets 59% of the pledged delegates then they are the nominee. Otherwise the vote determines which is the nominee.

AND since NEITHER of these candidates will have 59% of the pledged delegates, NEITHER one is the presumed nominee.

THEREFORE, to "call it", is simply not FACT BASED but opinion/bias based.

Unless Hillary has 59% of the PLEDGED delegates before the convention, she is NOT the nominee. I don't care what anyone else imagines, that is the standard. Period

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Response to pdsimdars (Reply #593)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 02:34 PM

674. The vote of delegates ALWAYS determines the nominee.

Even if a candidate has in excess of 59% of pledged delegates, they're still not he nominee until the delegates vote at the convention and nominate them. That's why the convention exists.

When a candidate reaches a majority of overall delegates (yes, including superdelegates who have declared for them) before the convention, they're considered the presumptive nominee. That's how it's been in every Democratic primary since 1984. Nobody is claiming that the presumptive nominee has already become the official nominee, but your inability (or perhaps, unwillingness) to understand the distinction suggest that this is your first presidential primary.

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Response to Lord Magus (Reply #674)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 03:04 PM

681. And they do not vote UNTIL THE CONVENTION.

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Response to pdsimdars (Reply #681)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 03:18 PM

683. Hence the the term PRESUMPTIVE nominee.

Why is this so hard to get through your skull?

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Response to pdsimdars (Reply #62)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 08:09 AM

583. Your analysis is wrong-based on history Clinton will be the presumptive nominee on June 7

You are ignoring history and want special rules just for Sanders. In every primary contest since the creation of super delegates, the winner was declared the presumptive nominee based on the inclusion of super delegates. That fact that this is not favorable to Sandes does not matter http://www.dailykos.com/stories/2016/5/29/1532358/-What-Does-It-Mean-to-Clinch-the-Nomination-When-Superdelegates-Are-Involved

?1464557557

After reading a number of impassioned defenses of why the Democratic presidential nomination should not be called next week on June 7th, I got curious. What’s the history here, since the superdelegates were added to the process? When a Democratic candidate hits the magic number of pledged delegates plus superdelegates, are they the nominee?

The answer: history says the first person to get to the magic number is the presumptive nominee, and says it unambiguously, even if the losers often disagree.

Here’s how it has gone since the superdelegates were added to the process.....

Summary

Anyway, I started this research 12 hours ago to answer a question for myself, so that as everyone on TV is spinning things this way and that on June 7th I have some context. What, if anything, have I learned?

First, most non-incumbent candidates have needed superdelegates to win, and the history of superdelegates has been that once a Democrat hits the magic number and becomes the nominee, superdelegates are more likely to flow to the nominee than from them.

Also, in the history of the superdelegates, they have always ended up supporting the decision of the pledged delegates, and their most important contribution has been to amplify leads of the pledged delegate winner so that they can be assured success on a first ballot, and avoid the sort of messy convention that harms a general campaign.

The major thing I’ve learned is that the press declares, and has always declared, the winner after they hit the magic number, and has done so in far more nebulous circumstances than this. Even in 1984, in which Hart won by a number of other metrics, in which the delegate count was the arbiter, and Mondale announced himself as the nominee, even with 38 percent of the popular vote to Hart’s 36 percent—even then, Hart may have claimed he still had a cunning plan, but no one begrudged Mondale the fact he was, for all intents and purposes, the nominee.

When you think about it, that simply has to happen. Things need to get done, and they need the nominee to do them. Except for Reagan in 1976, who chose a running mate after Gerald Ford was made the nominee, there aren’t a whole lot of non-nominee candidates going to the convention with their own vice president picked out. You get to do that because the numbers say you’re the nominee.

Meeting this number also allows the nominee to do the work of campaigning before the convention, establishing a message, building capacity on the ground, etc.

The press, for its part, has always understood this, from 1984 onward, and has named the nominee (or the “presumptive nominee”) the minute the candidate crosses the line with their combination of pledged and supers, and usually said something to the effect that they had “clinched” the nomination. They did that when Mondale had won far fewer states than Hart. They did that when Dukakis did not have 50 percent of the pledged delegates. They did that when Obama had not won the popular vote (yes, I know, Michigan—I hope we’re still not fighting this?).

This is a well researched article and confirms that the nomination process will be over on Tuesday June 7, 2016 when the results of the New Jersey primary are announced.

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Response to Gothmog (Reply #583)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 09:37 AM

610. Reality is good enough for me!



June 7th - or maybe even earlier? - we have our Democratic nominee.

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Response to Skinner (Reply #17)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 05:53 PM

76. If they come around DU criticizing the Democratic candidate, I'll invite them to Free Republican...

and I do not give a tinkers damn how many posts bashing Obama, Clinton and "constructive criticism" of Sanders their online persona is displaying. I bet the first trolls paid by Karl Rove still post at Democratic Underground and are in better standing than me. They report me to someone with nearly everything I post in General Discussion. Right now, most of them are still causing trouble in General Discussion Primaries.

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Response to Jeffersons Ghost (Reply #76)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 08:17 PM

352. I assume you mean Free Republic,

 

lair of the freepers.... You don't know them?

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Response to truebluegreen (Reply #352)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 09:18 PM

405. I actually meant another place; but this isn't a religion discussion...

I suspect that we have the first trolls the DNC planted at Democratic Underground and they have better readership than me and a lot more online comments.

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Response to Skinner (Reply #17)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 06:01 PM

105. No, it hasn't. "Apparent" or "Presumed"...

 

...are not good enough reasons for you to call it.

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Response to ChisolmTrailDem (Reply #105)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 07:49 PM

322. Skinner thinks that's a good reason. And he gets to decide. n/t

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #322)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 08:17 PM

351. +100!

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #322)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 09:40 PM

423. What part of that don't they understand?? This is Skinner's site, for chrissakes. And he's being

extremely generous to them. Yet, it's still not enough.

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Response to BlueCaliDem (Reply #423)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 03:45 AM

538. Yawn

 

Schmooze much lol? Skinner was clear and regardless of your interpretation people will still be allowed to argue their points on the merits. I hope that's not disappointing.

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Response to highprincipleswork (Reply #5)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 06:08 PM

137. And hence the problem.

 

This assuming that one candidate has already won is disruptive and disrespectful towards those who support the other candidate.

I'll see if I stick around.... it's been a nasty experience being a member of DU AND being a supporter of Sanders.

I simply want and desire a progressive agenda to be the party's platform. I'm not sure if it'll be there even at the convention.

We'll see....

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Response to seekthetruth (Reply #137)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 07:32 PM

308. "it's been a nasty experience being a member of DU AND being a supporter of Sanders."

If you really think that, then you wouldn't last for A SINGLE DAY as a DU Clinton supporter.

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Response to tarheelsunc (Reply #308)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 08:51 PM

378. +1000

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Response to tarheelsunc (Reply #308)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 09:43 PM

424. + 2000 eom

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Response to BlueCaliDem (Reply #424)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 01:57 AM

511. I know, right? They have the majority of the board, ruled the jury pool.. "85%" .. we got

alerted on, hidden.. not because most of the posts were againt TOS but because they didn't put BS in a good light.. and run off the board for an enforced time out ..

The only safe place away from that is Hillary's group.. and they lurk there, alerting on posts that aren't necessarily against TOS.. and, they're whining about how hard it's been to be a BS fan on DU?

uh huh.

Hey BlueCali~

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Response to Cha (Reply #511)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 07:02 AM

569. I thank the heavens for the Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama Groups. I'd otherwise not come to

Democratic Underground anymore where it not for those two groups. The visceral dislike for both Democrats Barack Obama and now Hillary Clinton on other forums within DU made it impossible for me to be in those forums. There were even times when I was getting the strong feeling that I'd ventured into some anti-Democratic Party site.

I've also noticed that the vast majority of those posters believed that the word "Democratic" in Democratic Underground meant the small "d" democratic, rather than the large "D" Democratic - or so they excused. Some openly admitted that they were Libertarians, Paulites, Green Partiers, Communists , etc. - all groups that pretty much loathe the Democratic Party. And their posts revealed as much.

I really miss the old Democratic Underground, Cha, where posts attacking Democrats and the Democratic Party got ZERO tolerance and the accounts and posts quickly removed - the way they do today at TPV.

Hey, Cha! Good to see you!

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Response to BlueCaliDem (Reply #569)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 07:26 AM

571. I wouldn't be @ DU if it weren't for The BOG, Hill's Gr, or the AA GR, either..

not now.. That's an excellent point.

We have been so fortunate to have Barack Obama as our President.. and I'm so looking forward to Hillary building on his legacy that he worked so hard for almost 8 years now.. No way is anyone else going to get in there that does nothing but try to marginalize him.

I miss the DU when it was really Democratic Underground, too. The majority tried to turn it into something else .. but here we are with a Dem as our Nominee and in two weeks we'll all be supporting her.. because those are the rules.

U2, BlueCali~

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Response to BlueCaliDem (Reply #569)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 07:37 AM

576. The pretend or real misunderstanding of both "Democratic" and "Underground"

is vexing. How many times does it has to be explained. It never sinks in.

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Response to betsuni (Reply #576)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 08:56 AM

591. Oh, it sinks in all right. Make no mistake and think otherwise. eom

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Response to Cha (Reply #511)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 01:06 PM

663. ++++++1000~



Cha~

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Response to tarheelsunc (Reply #308)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 10:58 PM

453. It's only the past 2wks to a month that Clinton supporters were not being beat up on, alerted

for posts on the Clinton Group and having the post voted to be hidden. Things became more even about a month ago.

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Response to tarheelsunc (Reply #308)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 11:19 PM

464. Been banned, ignored and had a few hidden posts.

 

Once i was being a smartass, but every other time I simply didn't see why one would support a candidate who won't come out against fracking as well as many other issues.

Not once was I personally offensive towards anyone.

Is that what you're talking about? How much is it for you?

Seems like Clinton supporters attack Sanders' supporters on their allegiance to the party, a perceived sense of enabling Trump to win, and not being pragmatic towards policy.

In contrast, Sanders supporters tend to critique how people can support someone who does not hold the base values of a progressive agenda, aside from the trustworthiness issues .

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Response to seekthetruth (Reply #464)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 03:10 PM

682. That's the way it's been with my few "hides"...

But, you wouldn't recognize the people here who seek the truth and want it in terms of what the party was before it was taken over by corporatist adorned by the "Stepford Wives" by comments herein...

... because "they", the cheerleaders of a rigged system, prefer to ignore the majorities of posters here. There are none so blind as those who refuse to see.

So, we'll see if DU deserves the majority of persons I see as more level headed and non-cheerleaders going forward.

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Response to tarheelsunc (Reply #308)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 01:33 AM

501. Well said, tarheelsunc.. We're tough enough!

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Response to tarheelsunc (Reply #308)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 06:19 AM

564. +30000

Can't believe they claim to be the ones with the problem! Just more delusion.

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Response to tarheelsunc (Reply #308)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 09:35 AM

608. Ain't that the truth

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Response to tarheelsunc (Reply #308)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 09:41 AM

613. Thank-you.

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Response to tarheelsunc (Reply #308)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 10:28 AM

625. +1...nt

Sid

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Response to tarheelsunc (Reply #308)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 10:33 AM

626. +3,000. nt

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Response to tarheelsunc (Reply #308)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 11:54 AM

645. +10^10^100 It's hard to imagine how some folks can be so unaware of what's happening around them

They had 85% control of the site and they abused that as much as they could.

That's why Skinner had to step in regarding the 5 hide rule.

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Response to tarheelsunc (Reply #308)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 12:33 PM

657. Yeah

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Response to seekthetruth (Reply #137)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 10:46 PM

449. this is how i see it too, seekthetruth. nt

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Response to seekthetruth (Reply #137)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 01:20 AM

496. In the end, there's always one candidate who wins and the rest who don't.

How is it "disrespectful" to the supporters of the defeated candidate to acknowledge that they did not in fact win? And it's not even that these rules being imposed for DU declare that a winner has been decided now just because it's known who the most likely winner will be. They're saying that primary season for DU is considered to be over 24 hours after the final primary is concluded. At that point, it's no matter about who's "likely" to win, because somebody will have already won.

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Response to Lord Magus (Reply #496)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 01:34 AM

502. Superdelegates vote at the convention. Not over till then.

 

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Response to highprincipleswork (Reply #502)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 01:50 AM

507. All delegates vote at the convention.

That's why the convention exists, for the delegates to vote and officially nominate a candidate. Until that point, nobody is the official nominee even if they have 100% of the pledged delegates. That's why the term "presumptive nominee" exists.

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Response to Lord Magus (Reply #507)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 01:52 AM

509. Exactly, as you say, it ain't over till it's over, and this looks like a mighty long game from where

 

I am sitting.

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Response to highprincipleswork (Reply #509)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 02:08 AM

514. There's 13 days left until all primaries are concluded. At that point there's no more "game" left.

There's plenty of delegates to be decided during those 13 days, but after every delegate is chosen we'll have a presumptive nominee.

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Response to Lord Magus (Reply #514)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 02:23 AM

521. As if DU was the only game in town, first of all. Secondly, the feelings and expression of at least

 

half the people here will not be so easily changed.

There will be either lots of creative posts, and I mean wildly creative, or there will be a giant sucking sound of people vacating.

Feeling the Bern is not likely to be over anytime soon, and certainly not until the Democratic National Convention.

That, of course, THEY will try to control, which is evidenced by things like bending the rules to allow Republican donors and Big Money and lobbyists to fund the convention and even to sit on committees. It is an afront to anything this is precious about the Democratic Party that such anti-Obama tactics can even be allowed or embraced again. Probably to make up for the lack of dollars coming from half the Democratic Party.

Fine party that sounds like it's going to be.

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Response to seekthetruth (Reply #137)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 07:35 AM

575. It's so unfair that the majority didn't vote for Sanders



I don't get it. Where did this entitlement schtick come from?

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Response to Cary (Reply #575)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 11:38 AM

641. What majority?

 

....if you're referring to the"manufactured majority" created by the Party through various rules which prevented independents from participating in the primary....I think you're not looking at the whole picture.

In NY, didn't people have to decide the previous October to switch their party affiliation to the Dem party?

Kinda asinine to me.....if it didn't benefit your candidate, you'd be up in arms and especially you'd consider claim it's so unfair to the female candidate......

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Response to seekthetruth (Reply #641)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 12:00 PM

648. I don't have "a candidate."

If you don't like our Party you're free to go get your own.

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Response to Cary (Reply #648)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 03:30 PM

687. It's not a question of whether I like the Party or not....

 

......but that's changed so drastically as compared to what it traditionally represented in the past.

Trust me, I do believe we may just create a new party of our (progressives) own. Good luck to the Democratic Party in that case....

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Response to seekthetruth (Reply #687)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 05:19 PM

695. Things change.

That's the only constant.

I have been around politics for a long time now. I had a law partner who was a U.S. Senator. I've worked with government at all levels. I have seen principle. I have seen reality.

I'm not the least bit impressed with the radical left.

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Response to highprincipleswork (Reply #5)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 06:22 PM

178. Doesn't matter. Cranking down the ambient bile is all for the good...

...no matter what the case is going into the convention.

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Response to highprincipleswork (Reply #5)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 06:40 PM

224. Thats exactly right. If neither candidate has the requisite number of pledged delegates to

reach the status of "Democratic nominee" at the end of the primaries, there will be no Democratic nominee between June 14th and the Democratic National Convention at the end of July. So is the idea that there should be no discussion of either candidate during those weeks?

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Response to bjo59 (Reply #224)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 01:15 AM

494. That's not how it works and that's never been how it works.

There's no Democratic nominee until the convention, period. No matter what the delegate counts are. There is no "requisite number of pledged delegates" to be the nominee, there's a requisite number of delegates, period. Even if a candidate had won 100% of the pledged delegates, they still wouldn't be the nominee until they actually get nominated at the convention. It's not just the superdelegates who don't vote until the convention, it's all delegates. While the pledged delegates are bound to vote for whichever candidate won them, they haven't actually voted yet either. And technically their votes aren't set in stone yet either; a candidate does after all have the option of releasing their pledged delegates. At which point they would become equivalent to superdelegates; even if a candidate releases their delegates and encourages them to support somebody else, that's only a suggestion and not binding.

All of this is why the term "presumptive nominee" exists.

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Response to highprincipleswork (Reply #5)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 08:46 PM

372. It's clear to the person who owns the website.

Ultimately, that's the only opinion that matters.

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Response to highprincipleswork (Reply #5)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 01:08 AM

490. Yes, it will be.

Basically it already is clear. The path to a victory for Bernie Sanders is so narrow as to be effectively nonexistent. Once the last primary votes are cast and 100% of pledged delegates have been allocated, it's no longer just "effectively over" and flat-out is over. Sure you can argue that maybe something will happen prevent the primary winner from becoming the nominee. Sure, that's true. And it's also true that big meteor could fall from the sky and hit Trump right in the comb-over. But the fact that bizarrely unlikely things could happen after the primaries end doesn't mean we should pretend it's still primary season after the primaries end.

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Response to highprincipleswork (Reply #5)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 08:08 AM

582. It is very clear now who will be the nominee of the Democratic party

Clinton's lead in popular vote and delegates over Sanders is far greater than Obama's lead over Clinton in 2008

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Response to Skinner (Original post)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 05:36 PM

6. Thanks! I'm looking forward to the new jury system ...

... and the methods you've implemented to help deter abuse.

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Response to NurseJackie (Reply #6)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 09:54 PM

427. Do you still think that I abused the jury system?

Because I did not.

I made 3 alerts (now 4) ever at DU including the one that got your post hidden.

I never alerted in any coordinated matter or discussed my actions as a juror except specifically to you in PM nearly 2 weeks after the hide and you making an OP and long thread in the Hillary Clinton group about being alert stalked and gang alerted -- untrue.

I served on hundreds of juries and was fair and in the spirit of TOS; yes, I did vote for hiding posts of Clinton supporters but used the same judgement as for non-Clinton supporters. I voted to hide more Clinton supporter posts because a majority of the juries were for their posts.

You posted a thread in the Hillary Clinton group specific to my alert that hid your posts - you made claims of alert stalking, jury conspiracy, etc and that the alerter should not be on juries and you would go to Admin. The thread went on for nearly 100 posts in that vein - but none of the claims were true, I had made only 3 (now 4) alerts ever at DU. I jurored fair and according to TOS.

I don't ignore posters and my posts that could be interpreted of violations of TOS are extremely rare. Only 2 posts of my own were ever hidden.

(1) "Hillary Clinton is a psychopath" and a reference to how Clinton reminded me of Richard Nixon in the text.

Title to a post that contained the infamous video of Hillary Clinton "We came ... He Died" I am OK with this.

(2) "Who cares what you think? nt"

Title response with no text to a long thread started by Bravnak. There was probably a dozen or more posts by Bravnak in the thread more worthy of a hide and ultimately Bravnak was locked out of their own thread by a hide.

Nearly two weeks after your post was hidden and, in a friendly and fraternal fashion, I told you I had made the alert and observed your thread (now I will say of bile and imagination) in the Hillary Clinton group. There was nothing unfriendly nor gloating nor hostile on my part and you without a trace of hostility asked for a link to your thread and the thread where I has alerted which I provided. From that point on - April 27 - I have never beeb asked to be on a jury when prior it was a near daily occurrence.

Your were a paranoid in your OP and stabbed me in the back and I lost jury duty for no reason whatsoever because I was consistently fair in 100s of juries over years.

This event says very little positive about your character and whatever administrator then removed me from jury duty.

So call me a whiner and link folks to your whiny OP and thread of bile and fabrication in the Hillary Clinton group.

I make an effort to be kind at DU and sometimes provide some original contact. The occasional time I am not kind is to posters that make a practice of not being kind who disrupt intentionally.

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Response to PufPuf23 (Reply #427)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 10:03 PM

434. I honestly have no idea what you're talking about ...

... and literally haven't thought once about you since the time you sent me a pm and I didn't know what you meant then either. Whatever it is you're going on about, it means nothing to me ... just let it go and forget about it. I have.

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Response to NurseJackie (Reply #434)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 10:26 PM

441. For your recollection.

Your hidden post (and my 3rd alert ever)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=1750981

The OP and discussion you started in Hillary Clinton group:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1107103274

That accused me of alert stalking, bogus alert, etc. and stated you were going to admin to remove my jury duty but nothing happened.

On April 27 in a friendly fashion I told you I was the alerter and provided links to the threads.

I was never called for jury duty again. I had served on 100s of juries and made great effort to be fair and in accord with TOS.

I assume you contacted an admin and I was removed from the jury pool.

So you cared enough to make a long thread about the alert and evidently cared enough to go to admin.

So life isn't fair and some are more equal than others and all is fair game in politics too.

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Response to PufPuf23 (Reply #441)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 04:57 AM

559. You make many assumptions...

... It seems to me that you have only yourself to blame if you've done something questionable that the admins disapproved of.

Whatever issue you have is with the admins, not with me. My recommendation to you is that you should take it up with them and leave me out of it.

Frankly, I don't care all that much about your drama. Nothing personal. You're just approaching this from the wrong angle.

That's why I put you on pm ignore long ago. I'm not at all certain what you're expecting to accomplish now with your recent public posts.

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Response to NurseJackie (Reply #559)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 09:26 AM

601. I told you I made an alert and your post was hidden.

You made an OP in HCG about alert stalking, frivolous alerts, gang alerting, etc that was baseless and said you were going to admin to have the alerters jury duty removed. Nothing happened then.

Nearly two weeks later, I told you in a friendly fashion that I was the alerter (and that I had only ever made 3 alerts) and you asked for links to your thread and the alert that I provided.

I was never summoned to jury duty again (and had been on juries nearly every day where I had acted in good faith and according to TOS).

Never had I had contact with you before or afterwards I have no idea whether you have blocked me from PM.

You were obviously the intermediary between me and the Admins so you were involved and IMO got friendly treatment form the Admin.

I do not expect either DU nor the world to be fair.

No drama here but folks should see you for the fundamentally dishonest person and game player that you are.

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Response to PufPuf23 (Reply #601)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 09:40 AM

612. If what you say is true, then you've likely been eliminated from jury service because ...

... the admins may question your ability to serve impartially and fairly. This is just a guess on my part, I'm not a mind reader and I can't begin to say what motivated the admins.

The owner, Skinner, has already posted a message putting people on notice what their responsibilities are AS JURORS, and what the consequences will be if he feels that someone is abusing their responsibility. He made it very clear what he expected, what he would consider to be unacceptable, and what the consequences would be.

To my knowledge, Skinner has NOT said anything about punishing people for frivolous alerts. Therefore, it's my best guess that if you have indeed been banned from jury service, it's probably not for any alert you've sent ... instead, it's likely to be because of something you did (or didn't do) when serving on a jury.

Again, you'll have to take it up with Skinner ... not with me. I'm not the one who makes those types of decisions. You're barking up the wrong tree, PufPuf23.

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Response to NurseJackie (Reply #612)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 11:54 AM

644. I served on juries impartially and fairly.

On April 27 at your request I gave you a link to your post that was hidden by my alert and the subsequent baseless OP you posted in HCG about your hidden post.

In the HCG thread along with baseless accusations you said you were contacting Admin to have the then unknown to you alerter removed from alerts and juries. That did not happen then.

I never lost alert function (the alert on your post was my 3rd alert ever and I have made one alert since) but never have been summoned to a jury since I provided links to the alert and your thread about the alert in HCG.

None of my now 4 alerts were frivolous. Three of the four were to posts that were hidden, your post and two others that I was not the first to alert.

Regarding the near daily of one or more juries:

1) I made every attempt to be fair and to TOS. On maybe 5% of summons I either refused or aborted service because I could not make a good faith decision.

2) At least 90% if not 95% of my jury votes concurred with the majority vote. It was extremely rare that I was a minority vote.

3) I never made a jury comment on a single occasion.

Based on 1) and more so 2) and 3), Admin had no reason to question my ability to serve on jury impartially and fairly based upon my jury service (and history of alerts).

Anyone who has read my posts will find me highly critical of Hillary Clinton but there is zero evidence that I was a poor juror.

On April 27 I provided you links to your OP in HCG and your alerted post that was hidden and was never summoned for jury again/

You stated in an open thread that you would contact Admin about an alerter (me) that was at the time unknown to you.

I respect Skinner and DU for several reasons.

I have enjoyed DU for years as PP93 and other another screen name before DU2 but still haven't hit 10,000 posts total. I have posted at a greater rate recently than ever.

Skinner has been open about his support for Hillary Clinton yet allows a forum with diverse opinion and many of us at DU are not fond of Hillary Clinton and neo-liberalism in general.

DU Skinner and DU Admins have every right to be less than fair and limit discussion and ban or limit posters privileges as DU is a private entity. I have no problem with Skinner or DU.

I merely thought this was an opportune spot to share my experience and you are part of the experience.

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Response to PufPuf23 (Reply #644)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 12:13 PM

650. Obviously this is of great importance to you, but I feel compelled to let you know ...

... that I really don't care one way or the other about it. It's done, over. I've moved on ... and I recommend that you do the same.

As I've pointed out to you earlier, I'm not the one who makes decisions on who is (or isn't) eligible to serve on juries. The arguments and justifications you're making toward me will have no effect in your jury eligibility status. Your posting history is irrelevant. Your longevity makes no difference to me.

It really doesn't matter what YOU think about your impartiality. It's highly likely that even the most partisan individuals believe in their hearts that they are being fair, just as you so believe. What matters is what Skinner thinks. And my best guess is that he thinks differently than you do.

The issue you have is with Skinner. Email him. Plead your case to him. I don't care. There are only so many ways that I can express to you that I do not care.

DU Skinner and DU Admins have every right to be less than fair and limit discussion and ban or limit posters privileges as DU is a private entity.
I'm sure that this kind of attitude isn't helping whatever case you'd hoped to make with Skinner.

I merely thought this was an opportune spot to share my experience and you are part of the experience.
Okay, and now you've done that. I hope you've gotten it all out of your system, and I hope you understand that there's nothing I can do to help you. Just give it a rest and move on.

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Response to NurseJackie (Reply #650)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 12:38 PM

659. Actually I do not miss jury duty. I have no case to make to Skinner.

Like I said, my only motive was to tell my story.

Edit to add:

Note that you clipped where I typed," I have no problem with Skinner"

Also note that I was complimentary regards Skinner and DU in general.

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Response to PufPuf23 (Reply #601)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 09:58 AM

617. Jury voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT.

On Thu Jun 2, 2016, 09:47 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

I told you I made an alert and your post was hidden.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1013&pid=6437

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

The last line of this post is a personal attack ("fundamentally dishonest" and "game player".) Also, this poster has gone over the top by personally blaming Nurse Jackie for a jury duty decision that was made by the admin, and cleverly accusing NJ of colluding with the admins on their decisions.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Thu Jun 2, 2016, 09:58 AM, and the Jury voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: It seems to fit in the discussion and I don't think it's over the top.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Ad hominem attack
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Agree with alerter.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Nurse Jackie has done some pretty crummy things on DU and may be guilty of all the things in Puf's post. Anywho, I don't like to hide posts unless they are really rude. Puf was pretty rational and not over the top, so I see no need to hide this.

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Response to fleur-de-lisa (Reply #617)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 10:19 AM

622. Thank you. I see in this thread that others have been removed from jury pool

and confused about why.

Thank you especially Juror #7.

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Response to Skinner (Original post)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 05:36 PM

7. Very welcome clarification. A little good will and common courtesy will go a long way.

 

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Response to Surya Gayatri (Reply #7)


Response to cyberpj (Reply #205)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 06:59 PM

262. Oops!! Must mean "From NOW on...."

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Response to 7962 (Reply #262)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 08:52 PM

379. Actually she meant

 

"By liberals"

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Response to cyberpj (Reply #205)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 12:53 AM

488. A description of your candidate's increasingly trail-worn appearance is no proof of ill-will,

 

nor is it a discourtesy. Just realism, on a political forum.

Not to mention that it is NOT hide-worthy, not EVEN in the present climate.

You're welcome, dear cyberpj.

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Response to cyberpj (Reply #205)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 06:53 AM

568. He would have had a shit fit if someone said that about Hillary.

And if it was said about Hillary, I would have voted to hide.

Self-reflection is impossible for some.

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Response to Skinner (Original post)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 05:36 PM

8. Sounds fair.

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Response to Skinner (Original post)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 05:36 PM

9. Oh thank you so much

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #9)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 07:37 PM

313. HEY sis...

haven't seen you on twitter lately, still there?

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Response to yuiyoshida (Reply #313)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 08:46 PM

373. I moved across town and have had so much stuff to do

 

How you been? Good i hope.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #373)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 03:23 PM

685. Having fun, sis...

Been hanging out with friends and listening to some new music, its been fun!

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Response to Skinner (Original post)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 05:36 PM

10. What criticism of Bernie Sanders will be permitted? (nt)

 

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Response to w4rma (Reply #10)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 05:39 PM

21. We don't want people to tear down Bernie Sanders either. (nt)

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Response to Skinner (Reply #21)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 06:34 PM

208. Thank you.

That post should help to restore some peace around here.
There are some people here that think all criticism should be for the other candidate and all praise should be for their own candidate.

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Response to Skinner (Reply #21)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 08:49 PM

376. Thank you!

This will go a long way toward building unity, which is sorely needed.

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Response to w4rma (Reply #10)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 11:08 PM

455. I don't think Bernie Sanders

will be mentioned much in the general except as supporter of Clinton...however, if he continues to run a campaign after Sec. Clinton is nominated than honestly his name should not be mention in GE...in my opinion.

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Response to w4rma (Reply #10)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 11:57 AM

647. Since Bernie will endorse Hillary around that point, there won't be much incentive to attack him. nt

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Response to Skinner (Original post)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 05:36 PM

11. Thanks for the clarity.

Looking forward to moving onward.

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Response to Skinner (Original post)


Response to Name removed (Reply #12)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 05:39 PM

20. Advocating for him here would not be permitted.

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Response to wyldwolf (Reply #20)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 03:55 AM

540. Of Course It Will

 

Not as a 3rd party candidate though. You should be grateful he never ran as a 3rd party candidate that you accuse him of being because that would've ensured a Hillary loss without a doubt. Bernie isn't about a person it's about an idea an unfortunately for you you cannot destroy an idea. He is about "us" while the other candidate isn't so much. Skinner was clear. No personal attacks, no attempts to campaign against the democratic nominee, no 3rd party campaigning etc. Of course people can still talk about Bernie. Don't be ridiculous.

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Response to billhicks76 (Reply #540)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 04:33 AM

550. We were referring to him as a third-party candidate hypothetically

So no advocating for him here would not be permitted. There is no wiggle room in that rule

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Response to wyldwolf (Reply #550)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 02:13 PM

668. Semantics

 

Advocating is just a word. We will be advocating for his platform. Did you forget he has 5 reps on that committee? I know you're salivating to wipe him off the map but he's not running as a 3rd party candidate so your argument makes no sense.

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Response to billhicks76 (Reply #668)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 02:50 PM

679. "advocating" as defined by the site owners. They won't argue semantics

They'll just boot you off.

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Response to wyldwolf (Reply #679)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 07:08 PM

700. You Definitely Have An Attitude Problem

 

You should probably heed your own advice. I've read all the rules and I'm confident I will follow them and play nice even in the face of your smug, arrogance and censorship witch hunt.

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Response to Name removed (Reply #12)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 05:40 PM

23. Then he wouldn't be the DEm nom

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #23)


Response to Name removed (Reply #134)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 06:13 PM

155. So what? You can't advodate him on here

WTF.

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Response to Name removed (Reply #12)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 05:41 PM

26. I'd think/hope that any advocacy of him in that case would be treated the same as...

a pro-Trump post. or pro-Gary Johnson, pro-Jill Stein.

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Response to Tarc (Reply #26)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 10:44 PM

448. I agree advocating for Bernie would be advocating for someone other than the nominee

and should be disallowed.

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Response to Name removed (Reply #12)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 05:41 PM

31. He's made clear that he's not going to do that. (nt)

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Response to Skinner (Reply #31)


Response to Name removed (Reply #124)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 06:10 PM

141. We don't permit people to support third-party spoilers. (nt)

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Response to Skinner (Reply #141)


Response to Name removed (Reply #12)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 05:42 PM

32. Not happening

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Response to TeamPooka (Reply #32)


Response to Post removed (Reply #123)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 06:15 PM

158. Did you not read Skinner's comments about civility? eom

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Response to charlyvi (Reply #158)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 07:52 PM

327. Well, I believe that answers my question about what constitutes a "named removed" post. nt

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Response to Post removed (Reply #123)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 06:27 PM

191. Whoop, whoop, whoop, civility failure! Whoop, whoop....

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Response to Name removed (Reply #12)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 05:59 PM

94. I like Bernie.

But he's not going to be the Dem nominee, and he's not going to have enough support or money to continue on as a 3rd party candidate after the convention. There were stories weeks ago about him being down to his last $6 million. Losing the nomination at the convention isn't going to help that.

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Response to Skinner (Original post)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 05:38 PM

16. Very happy and excited about moving on.

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Response to Skinner (Original post)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 05:39 PM

18. GOTV people! The White House and Senate can be ours! Maybe even The HOR! nt

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Response to TeamPooka (Reply #18)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 05:43 PM

37. And don't forget Supreme Court appointments!

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Response to Fla Dem (Reply #37)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 05:46 PM

50. SCOTUS for our POTUS! nt

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Response to TeamPooka (Reply #18)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 05:45 PM

42. This would be so great if we could take back Congress

I would sleep soooo much better at night!

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Response to Karma13612 (Reply #42)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 07:06 PM

271. I don't think anyone would disagree with you, Karma

No matter who we support in the primaries. Down-ticket is important.

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Response to NastyRiffraff (Reply #271)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 07:17 PM

289. +1000!! eom

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Response to Karma13612 (Reply #42)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 07:54 PM

333. You and me both! nt

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Response to Skinner (Original post)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 05:39 PM

19. Fair enough. (eom)

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Response to Skinner (Original post)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 05:40 PM

22. What are the implications of groups like Socialist Progressives & the Populist Reform?

Members may be ideologically opposed to the nominee who is not seen as a progressive, but still recognize that Trump is much much worse and must be stopped (by which I mean, there may be no advocacy for 3rd parties)

However, the nature of these groups is to call out corruption in the Democratic party as we see it and advocate for populist reform. Some partisans may see this as tearing down Democrats, when really the goal is to improve a party we want to represent us (i.e. working within the system). To effect change, we must be informed: informed of who our representatives stand for and the powerful interests aligned against us.

Thank you for the rules clarification. The partisan sniping is getting extreme.

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Response to JonLeibowitz (Reply #22)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 05:43 PM

34. You can't advocate for third parties anywhere on DU. (nt)

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Response to Skinner (Reply #34)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 05:47 PM

55. Of course, but that is not the point of my question. I am talking about reform inside the party.

That requires acknowledging the big problems that the party itself has.

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Response to JonLeibowitz (Reply #55)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 06:01 PM

108. Only my reading from above, if the critisicm is presented helpful way to help the nominee and

Democrats succeed in November, there will be no issues.

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Response to Skinner (Original post)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 05:40 PM

24. You are mistaken. The general election does not arrive until AFTER the convention.

I you, like the Democratic establishment and the MSM, want to rush to the coronation, don't expect people to accept it. It is arbitrary and as I mentioned, the GE does NOT happen until the convention is OVER and the nomination chosen.

As it now stands, NEITHER Clinton or Sanders will have the necessary PLEDGED DELEGATES to secure the nomination. So your shutting it down is arbitrary and biased.

It is your site and if you are comfortable with being arbitrary and biased, I don't see how you can still call it a "Democratic" Underground. Because that is definitely not democratic but authoritarian. Period. You may think that is a word you don't like but the actions are aptly characterized by it.

Let thy will be done.

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Response to pdsimdars (Reply #24)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 05:44 PM

40. Well y'know, the Democratic Underground is not, in fact, a democracy

We're all here because we agreed to the terms of service of the site.

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Response to pdsimdars (Reply #24)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 05:45 PM

45. The Democratic Underground Terms of Service state that we transition to the general election...

...when both major party candidates are become clear. And the Democratic nominee will be clear when the primary voting is over.

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Response to Skinner (Reply #45)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 05:56 PM

86. Only if one of the candidates concedes.

Sorry skinner but you are going to upset a lot of people if you don't understand and respect that he is in the race until he concedes or wins or loses at the convention.

Even the DNC disagrees with you on this, as has been posted. The superdelegates cannot be counted until they vote.

I think it's very obvious that the majority of this board is in support of Sanders and will stick with him as long as the race is still going.

Are you sure you really want to stick to "your" rules instead of the DNC in this hotly contested race?

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Response to passiveporcupine (Reply #86)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 06:09 PM

138. Yes, I want to stick with my rules. (nt)

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Response to Skinner (Reply #138)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 06:21 PM

173. What if the FBI recommends that Hillary be indicted after the D.C. vote but before the convention

while Bernie still has a chance to be the nominee.

I would think such a turn of events would cause many super delegates to reconsider their commitments.

Should we ignore any newscasts or publications pertaining to such recommendation of indictment?

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Response to Uncle Joe (Reply #173)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 06:24 PM

181. Obviously our policy would change if the nominee changes.

This really isn't nearly as complicated as some people want to believe.

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Response to Skinner (Reply #181)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 06:25 PM

185. Yes but how should we treat such articles or newscasts as they would no doubt have the effect

of tearing Hillary down before the convention?

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Response to Uncle Joe (Reply #185)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 06:27 PM

194. I'm sure you can figure out a way to do it...

...that is consistent with the expectations I have laid out.

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Response to Skinner (Reply #194)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 06:34 PM

206. I know you have great expectations for Hillary and you don't believe she will be indicted,

but that's all I know for sure.

I can get squarely behind the Democratic Nominee but it seems to me, this is a major unknown prior to the convention.

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Response to Skinner (Reply #138)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 07:09 PM

276. I posted a reply to myself in error, so I'll post it again

Fair enough, your house, your rules.

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Response to passiveporcupine (Reply #86)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 06:11 PM

148. fair enough

it's your board.

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Response to passiveporcupine (Reply #86)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 08:59 PM

385. It's "his" site.

It's not the "DNC's" site. It's "Skinner's" site. This whole thread just floors me.

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Response to passiveporcupine (Reply #86)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 11:28 PM

466. The majority are more Clinton supporters or people who are able accept the reality Of this race.

Things have changed here lately. It is 99.9% impossible for Bernie to win this race.

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Response to Skinner (Reply #45)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 05:56 PM

88. Well, as I posted above, according to the rules, the Democratic nominee will NOT be clear

until the convention. You are being arbitrary. You may wish it otherwise, or hope it otherwise, but unless Hillary gets 59% of the PLEDGED delegates before the convention, she is not the nominee and it will have to be decided at the convention. Period.

You are imposing a ruling on the basis of a "fact" that you made up. Plain and simple.

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Response to Skinner (Reply #45)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 06:07 PM

129. Wrong. The nominee will be clear when one of them concedes. nt

 

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Response to Skinner (Reply #45)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 06:28 PM

196. Please see comment #62 . . . those are the facts, as opposed to your opinions.

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Response to Skinner (Reply #45)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 06:41 PM

226. Eggs and Chickens, Dude



Whatever, your site. In my considered opinion, for many reasons, you are invoking this prematurely.

I look forward to the love fest, but I swear that the next time I hear Fairy Clap it will be like NIAGRA FALLS! Slowly I turned...

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Response to pdsimdars (Reply #24)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 06:00 PM

97. Clinton will be nominated on the first ballot.

If Sanders is decent, he'll suspend the vote and ask the convention to nominate her by acclamation--as she did with Obama eight years ago.

This is "Democratic" Underground because most of us here are members of the "Democratic" Party, or support politicians who belong to the "Democratic" Party. This is also a private site with rules--if you don't like the rules, you don't have to hang around.

No one is holding you hostage here, you know--if you find this place distasteful, you don't have to stay.

smh.

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Response to MADem (Reply #97)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 06:08 PM

136. "Clinton will be nominated on the first ballot." Your exact statement explicitly says that there...

 

...will be no nominee until the convention.

You just said so yourself.

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Response to ChisolmTrailDem (Reply #136)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 06:29 PM

197. She is the "presumptive nominee." She has been for some time now.

I suggest that you start to pivot, because that IS the way it EXPLICITLY is. Everyone knows this, save the die-hards. No one is being "mean to Bernie," it's just that math is not an opinion and he has no path to the nomination--this has been the simple truth for some time.

All this noise and anger is just that--noise and anger. It's not going to change what happens when the last vote is cast, and it's not going to change her "formal" nomination on the first ballot.

I know the expression is trite, but resistance really is futile. It's a done deal. You can work to get a Democrat and the first female POTUS in the WH, or you can obstruct and derail for a little while longer--your choice.

It won't change anything if you fight and rail--it might make you feel better, briefly, but long term, if you take your anger out on your fellow DUers, it will only blow back on you.

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Response to MADem (Reply #197)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 09:45 PM

425. She is the "presumptive nominee."

 

It is amazing how this term gets changed this election by many of you. "presumptive nominee." can only be called when either a delegate has won a majority of pledged delegates or all major contenders have dropped out. It is fine that Clinton would most likely be it but she is not "presumptive nominee." until Sanders drops out. Saying anything other is just being wrong and a idiot about how the convention works.

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Response to TimPlo (Reply #425)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 03:11 AM

532. Excuse me, but the phrase means the same thing it has meant for over a half century.

Look up the word "presumptive" (synonyms: probable, likely, prospective, assumed, supposed, expected) and you go on and have a real nice day, now.

Get used to it. She's won.

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Response to TimPlo (Reply #425)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 03:59 AM

542. The AP will call her the presumptive nominee when she has the "magic number"

of delegates -- the majority of all the delegates combined, both pledged and superdelegates.

That's when it has been called in every election since 1984 -- when the super delegate system Tad Devine helped to create came into existence -- and that's when it will be called this time.

And that day is only 71 delegates away.

Here you can see it on the AP website:

https://interactives.ap.org/2016/delegate-tracker/

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Response to TimPlo (Reply #425)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 02:42 PM

676. "Presumptive nominee" is nothing new.

2008, for example, before Clinton dropped out:

"NBC News projected Obama as the presumptive Democratic nominee at 9 p.m. ET, as polls closed in South Dakota. Clinton won the primary, but NBC said Obama would win at least six delegates — enough when combined with late superdelegate declarations."

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/24944453/ns/politics-decision_08/t/obama-claims-democratic-nomination/

Search for "2008 Obama presumptive nominee" and you can find a few thousand more references.

Or any primary season back to at least 1984.

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Response to ChisolmTrailDem (Reply #136)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 06:56 PM

251. There has never been a nominee before a convention...by definition. You are not making news.

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Response to pdsimdars (Reply #24)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 06:11 PM

150. The nomination does not depend on pledged delegates alone.

It depends on a mix of pledged and super delegates. Enough super delegates have pledged to support Hillary -- they will not be changing their minds. If she meets the required number of pledged plus supers on June 7, she will be declared the nominee. As were Obama, Dukakis and Mondale before the actual convention. There has never been a time since supers were introduced to the system that the nominee was not declared before the convention. It will not change this time solely because Bernie wants it to.

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Response to charlyvi (Reply #150)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 06:27 PM

192. Please see comment #62 . . . those are the facts, not your opinions.

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Response to pdsimdars (Reply #192)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 06:53 PM

246. It's not my "opinion". It's how every election has gone since supers were introduced.

Saying there will not be a nominee until the convention is like saying you can't actually know the sun will come up tomorrow until you really see it; it may be a fact but advocating for that point of view is disingenuous at best. Hillary Clinton will be declared the nominee on June 7 because her mix of pledged and super delegates will reach 2383. But nothing I say will change your mind and vice versa, so let's not escalate this thing, okay. Lets just agree to disagree. Peace!

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Response to charlyvi (Reply #246)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 06:58 PM

259. Did you even bother to read what THEY say about it? Not that we don't all think your opinion

probably doesn't trump what the Democrats have to say, but it might be a good idea to actaully LOOK at it.
Then get back to us with an INFORMED opinion. Just let me know what part of it you think is wrong.

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Response to pdsimdars (Reply #259)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 04:07 AM

543. The Associated Press is going to call it for Hillary when she has the majority

of all the combined pledged delegates and superdelegates, just as they have in every Presidential election since 1984.

Look how close she is on this AP delegate tracker -- only 71 delegates away. Less than 9% of the 781 pledged delegates remaining.

https://interactives.ap.org/2016/delegate-tracker/

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Response to charlyvi (Reply #246)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 07:00 PM

265. Like they say, we can have our own opinions but not our own facts Read #62

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Response to charlyvi (Reply #246)

Thu Jun 2, 2016, 09:29 AM

605. blah, blah, blah, excuse, excuse, excuse. . . . . . make up your own little fantasy world, but

those are the criteria.

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Response to pdsimdars (Reply #192)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 07:24 PM

298. fact

 

" There has never been a time since supers were introduced to the system that the nominee was not declared before the convention. It will not change this time solely because Bernie wants it to."


Second fact.
The owner of the site makes the rules. its over June 16th
"The final Democratic presidential primary is Tuesday, June 14 in Washington DC. People will have one last glorious day of primary season on June 15, and then Democratic Underground general election season begins on Thursday, June 16."

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Response to charlyvi (Reply #150)

Wed Jun 1, 2016, 06:59 PM

261. Just read what they have to say. I put it in post #62

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