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Tue Nov 14, 2017, 04:50 AM

WaPo: This is how a superpower commits suicide

WaPo: This is how a superpower commits suicide

The erosion of US leadership was painfully clear during Trump's Asia trip


https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/theworldpost/wp/2017/11/13/trump-china/?tid=sm_tw&utm_term=.a36549ef96ca

MANILA, Philippines — During President Donald Trump’s first official Asia tour, the precipitous erosion of America’s decades-long hegemony in the region has been painfully apparent. This is partially the structural byproduct of the rapid rise of China, which has openly called for a 21st century new regional order of “Asia for Asians.” Since 2013, the Asian powerhouse has rolled out an alluring package of development initiatives, which could potentially redraw the economic landscape of the region and beyond. With China emerging as the world’s economic engine, it is proactively reclaiming its historical place in the sun.

But it is also the byproduct of the tempestuous Trump presidency’s devastating impact on American standing in Asia. Both allies and rivals in the region have been perturbed by Trump’s “America first,” neo-isolationist foreign policy. His midnight tirades on Twitter, constant attacks on the liberal international order and push to dismantle the Trans-Pacific Partnership trade agreement have collectively left America isolated even from some of its closest allies. As an official from one of America’s key partners in the region put it to me earlier this year: “Is this how superpowers commit suicide?” It appears the answer is yes.

-snip-

Since Trump’s ascent to power, America’s standing in the world has experienced a virtual collapse. According to the Pew Research Center, international confidence in American leadership has declined significantly in the past year. This has been most acutely felt in the Asia-Pacific region, the new center of gravity in global geopolitics.

Among America’s Asian allies, such as South Korea and Japan, confidence in the American president’s ability to make the right judgment has dropped by as much as 71 percent and 54 percent, respectively. In Indonesia, the world’s largest Muslim nation, it dropped by 41 percent. This is nothing short of a disaster for American soft power.


More on the link. but beware, it's loaded with auto play videos (I hate that crap!)

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Reply WaPo: This is how a superpower commits suicide (Original post)
KelleyKramer Tuesday OP
syringis Tuesday #1
TBA Tuesday #2
syringis Tuesday #3
RobinA Tuesday #18
Dave Starsky Tuesday #19
CrispyQ Tuesday #27
Scarsdale Tuesday #4
VOX Tuesday #13
mdbl Tuesday #5
Old Crank Tuesday #6
femmedem Tuesday #10
Tommy_Carcetti Tuesday #7
Girard442 Tuesday #9
CrispyQ Tuesday #28
Le Gaucher Tuesday #8
nolabear Tuesday #24
DFW Tuesday #11
syringis Tuesday #14
DFW Tuesday #15
syringis Tuesday #20
DFW Tuesday #22
syringis Tuesday #25
DFW Tuesday #26
syringis Wednesday #33
CrispyQ Tuesday #29
DFW Tuesday #32
Hekate Wednesday #35
Achilleaze Tuesday #12
GeoWilliam750 Tuesday #16
SergeStorms Tuesday #17
The_jackalope Tuesday #23
renate Tuesday #30
demmiblue Tuesday #21
Xolodno Tuesday #31
Hekate Wednesday #34

Response to KelleyKramer (Original post)

Tue Nov 14, 2017, 05:04 AM

1. This erosion is also obvious at UN climate talks...

Trump is a dream for anyone who wants to harm the USA...

No need to elaborate any hazardous strategy, no money to spend, no need to find people to do the job...

Just has to seat, feet on the table, a bag of pop corn and a beer and watch the "show" !

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Response to KelleyKramer (Original post)

Tue Nov 14, 2017, 05:24 AM

2. Im just gonna say it...

Maybe we don’t deserve to be a superpower anymore. Maybe we’ve abused the privilege.

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Response to TBA (Reply #2)

Tue Nov 14, 2017, 05:44 AM

3. I don't think so

Yes, you are not beyond reproach. But which country can claim to be perfect ?

All in all, you brought enormously to the world and you still have to.

It is so sad to see all what Obama have done to restore the image and the credibility of the USA destroyed in such short time by Trump. But I like to think it is temporary.

Fortunatly (if I can say), Trump has zero credibility. Perhaps it will take a little time to fix the damage but at the end, things will return to normality.

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Response to TBA (Reply #2)

Tue Nov 14, 2017, 08:16 AM

18. I Look At This

another way. While I don't see being a superpower in terms of "deserve," I do believe that America on balance has not been bad for the world. However, as unthinkable as it might be to those of us who grew up post-WWII and therefore taking our superpowerness for granted, maybe a post-America world would be better for America. America could then tend to its own issues rather than running the world. Someone else can try to herd these cats for awhile and we will attend to internal matters.

I don't know, just a thought I've been having.

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Response to RobinA (Reply #18)

Tue Nov 14, 2017, 08:23 AM

19. "Attend to internal matters"?

We're bringing back fucking coal mining.

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Response to TBA (Reply #2)

Tue Nov 14, 2017, 11:43 AM

27. Osama bin Laden said Americans should read William Blum.

A Brief History of U.S. Interventions:
1945 to the Present


by William Blum

Z magazine, June 1999

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Blum/US_Interventions_WBlumZ.html

The engine of American foreign policy has been fueled not by a devotion to any kind of morality, but rather by the necessity to serve other imperatives, which can be summarized as follows:

* making the world safe for American corporations;

* enhancing the financial statements of defense contractors at home who have contributed generously to members of congress;

* preventing the rise of any society that might serve as a successful example of an alternative to the capitalist model;

* extending political and economic hegemony over as wide an area as possible, as befits a "great power."


This in the name of fighting a supposed moral crusade against what cold warriors convinced themselves, and the American people, was the existence of an evil International Communist Conspiracy, which in fact never existed, evil or not.

The United States carried out extremely serious interventions into more than 70 nations in this period.

see link for list

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Response to KelleyKramer (Original post)

Tue Nov 14, 2017, 06:08 AM

4. The gop should bear a lot

of responsibility for this tRump fiasco. They cheered him on, took Russian money and made excuses for his ignorance. We need to "clear the swamp" ourselves. Vote OUT repubs. vote in democratic leaders who will have to clean up this total disaster they will leave behind. Even the gop members who are resigning after this term are afraid to tell the truth about what really happened. Sure, they are brave to speak up about tRump, but in the end they side with their "family" (as Lyin' Ryan calls the gop) Not a single one of them cares enough about this country to be HONEST and forthright. Looking forward to lucrative lives as lobbyists, no doubt.

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Response to Scarsdale (Reply #4)

Tue Nov 14, 2017, 07:10 AM

13. A lot? Im of the mind that they bear ALL responsibily for this ongoing outrage.

Our government is taking a pounding from indivduals within our own government.

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Response to KelleyKramer (Original post)

Tue Nov 14, 2017, 06:12 AM

5. Did anyone think this wasn't the case?

Any banana republic would get the same sentiments.

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Response to KelleyKramer (Original post)

Tue Nov 14, 2017, 06:25 AM

6. Just sad

There are and have been lots of problems with our foreign policy for decades but this administration is managing to hemorage good will around the world in a record pace.

The good news about the auto play videos is that they are behind a pay wall and I have limited my choice of news groups that I can support....

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Response to Old Crank (Reply #6)

Tue Nov 14, 2017, 07:01 AM

10. Welcome to Democratic Underground!

Looking forward to hearing more from you.

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Response to KelleyKramer (Original post)

Tue Nov 14, 2017, 06:34 AM

7. Its almost as if America had been great under President Obama, then...

...stopped being great under Trump, and now it would be up to the next President to.....make....America great.....again.

Hold on, everyone! I think I have the perfect slogan for the next President! He or she could use it anywhere!

It would be perfect to print on things like shirts.

Or hats.

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Response to Tommy_Carcetti (Reply #7)

Tue Nov 14, 2017, 06:54 AM

9. This country has a long hard climb to being *respectable* again.

We're like a family where dad went on a week-long booze and meth-fueled bender where he terrorized the town. Rehab will, at best, be long and difficult and success is not assured.

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Response to Girard442 (Reply #9)

Tue Nov 14, 2017, 11:45 AM

28. This.

First we gave the world W, then the Con. They are probably worried who we will foist onto the world stage next. Hell, I'm worried. His approval should be below 20% but he's still hovering above 35%. WTF, America?

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Response to KelleyKramer (Original post)

Tue Nov 14, 2017, 06:39 AM

8. Here is a profound quote - by Lin Yutang


When small men begin to cast big shadows, it means that the sun is about to set.


I read it somewhere a while ago..


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Response to Le Gaucher (Reply #8)

Tue Nov 14, 2017, 10:59 AM

24. Worthy quote.

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Response to KelleyKramer (Original post)

Tue Nov 14, 2017, 07:01 AM

11. This was echoed very clearly on West German Radio this morning

My wife has suffered a retinal tear and for the moment cannot read or drive, so I have taken a few days off from work to drive her to necessary medical appointments. I am lucky to work for an outfit where the guys at the top have a huge tolerance and understanding for this kind of thing and never give me a hard time about it.

While waiting in the car, I turned on the radio, and happened to hear a report from Bonn along with one sent from Washington yesterday. In Bonn, at the global climate conference, the world mood was that the USA has basically taken leave of its senses, and that the world cannot affort to wait around to see if we even regain sanity on a national level. They interviewed the governors of CA, OR and WA to show that we don't all follow the Trump administration line, but they hold most of the cards, and it is their word which goes down as our official policy. The general consensus is that the rest of the world is perfectly willing to pass us by, and address universal problems head-on without us if we aren't interested in being helpful. They played a quote from the Trump coal idiot, trying to say what a great thing "clean coal" is, and basically compared it to "safe cyanide."

This has expanded to trade and defense. The EU has convened its defense ministers and is organizing an EU defense force--not to replace NATO, but as a back-up in case the USA is out to lunch in time of an emergency--a likely scenario in the EU's eyes as long as the Trumpadors give the orders. The NYT global edition also ran a front page article today on how our trading partners, especially Canada, are already preparing for the USA to abandon NAFTA and are exporting like mad to the world as if the USA didn't exist, which, on many levels, we indeed no longer do, as far as they are concerned.

The German media didn't even bother any more this morning with the "how-could-America-do-this-to-itself" question, as it appears to them that we aren't worried enough to do anything about it. Let us ALL hope that Mueller, along with a nice boost by the people of Alabama, can prove to the world that we shouldn't be written off just yet. For the moment, it is REALLY frustrating trying to convince people in other countries that we are still a viable nation with much to offer in the way of culture, wisdom and material production. The Republican Party seems to be doing its level best to prove the opposite, and if it's really Putin pulling the strings, that makes it criminal, but that revelation, by itself, doesn't do anything improve the immediate crisis.

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Response to DFW (Reply #11)

Tue Nov 14, 2017, 07:31 AM

14. Bonjour DFW

Avant tout, mes meilleurs voeux de rétablissment à ton épouse.

The German media didn't even bother any more this morning with the "how-could-America-do-this-to-itself" question, as it appears to them that we aren't worried enough to do anything about it.


Le problème, c'est que le monde a forcément un regard extérieur et ne se rend pas forcément compte des efforts qui se font de l'intérieur.

Pour ma part, depuis quelques mois que je fréquente DU et les quelques autres précédents durant lesquels j'ai lu quotidiennement la presse US, je me rends bien compte que les gens ne se contentent pas de se lamenter en attendant que ça passe.

Seulement, sauf à faire pire encore et pour le coup, vraiment porter atteinte à la crédibilité des USA, un président, même aussi atrocement mauvais et incapable, même presque convaincu d'întelligence avec l'ennemi (il faut quand même des preuves solides), ne se déboulonne pas d'un coup de torchon.

Je crois que pour le moment, les dirigeants sérieux sont en stand-by et font vaille que vaille avec. Maintenant, il faut aussi reconnaître en toute honnêteté, que ça doit bien arranger quelques-uns de voir les US perdre un peu de leur position dominante.

Ca vaut le coup d'ailleurs que les Démocrates le répètent dans toutes leurs campagnes électorales et pointent autant que faire se peut, preuve à l'appui, les dommages causés par Trump et le GOP. Si ce dernier pouvait rester dans les choux quelques décades, je suis certaine que beaucoup d'améliorations et de changement seront apportés.

Même si beaucoup se font une idée débile du niveau des américains, il n'y a quand même pas 300 millions d'abrutis, loin de là ! Je constate au contraire, que beaucoup sont parfaitement conscients des enjeux actuels et des défis à relever pour l'avenir.

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Response to syringis (Reply #14)

Tue Nov 14, 2017, 07:50 AM

15. Certainement pas pas 300 millions d'abrutis, comme tu dis, mais----

Toute même quelques dizaines d'abrutis, et ils votent, et ils ont des milliards de dollars dérrière eux. En plus, et je le soupçonne très fort, il y a des pouvoirs étrangers avec un interêt fort dans une Amérique faible, ou bien enfaiblie. La Chine était déjà en train de metter ses piés partout, et de susser le sang (i.e. matière crue) de un pays après l'autre du tiers monde, et elle a chemin libre si nous (les USA) fermons notre gueule ce-pendant. Et Poutine se frotte las mains quand des pays comme l'Estonie, et la Lituanie commencent de regretter leur entrée dans l'OTAN, en se demandant si être membre leurs donne vraiment la protection qu'ils pensaient avoir au début. Tous les sages aux États-Unis ne peuvent changer rien dans tout ça si nous n'avons rien à dire dans notre politique étrangère.

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Response to DFW (Reply #15)

Tue Nov 14, 2017, 08:34 AM

20. Je suis d'accord sur le fait que certaines puissances y ont un interet

Mais certainement pas ici, c'est sûr. Et de plus, ce n'est en fait l'intérêt de personne pas même de la Chine ou de la Russie. Même si les 2 pays le pensent. Par contre, sans pour autant voir les US à terre, c'est sûr que les voir affaiblis, ça les arrange, ne serait-ce que pour renforcer leur pouvoir dans leur sphère d'influence. Il n'y a qu'à voir le TPP qui renaît de ses cendres sans les USA et dont les grandes lignes du traité sont définies. En clair, un nouveau traité voit le jour. Il est évident que la Chine sera le mastodonte qui au bout du compte, commercialement en tous cas, va dicter sa loi. Ce qui, par ricochet, pourrait sur le long terme, lui laisser les mains libres pour réduire au silence quelque voisin un peu trop pinailleur...

J'avoue être dépassée. Je n'arrive pas à comprendre comment même un Républicain a pu faire aussi bon marché de son pays ! Enfin bon sang ! Il y en a quand même bien dans le tas qui voient un peu plus loin que le bout de leurs circonscriptions charcutées ? Non ?

Admettons qu'ils fassent passer leur programme débile : Obamacare, moins de taxe, moins d'état, plus de privé, etc... à quoi ça servira si le pays de statut de superpuissance passe à au mieux, démocratie moyenne sans grand prestige ni moyens. Parce que le standing à l'étranger, ça demande des sous et beaucoup...aller canarder X Y ou Z dans l'espoir de relancer l'économie demande aussi des sous mais, mais mais aussi...d'être crédible aux yeux du monde.

Ca leur passe par dessus le crâne au GOP ? Ou bien ils sont tous taillés sur le modèle Moore, plus caricatural que celui-là, tu meurs !!

Je n'ai bien évidement pas mon mot à dire n'étant pas concernée directement mais si j'en avais le pouvoir, ce serait Cour Martiale et compagnie pour Trump et ses sbires complaisants.

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Response to syringis (Reply #20)

Tue Nov 14, 2017, 10:47 AM

22. Je crois que a Partie Republicaine n'etait qu'une vehicule

Il n'aurait jamais eu une chance avec les Démocrates, alors il a choisi les plus bêtes--avec raison, comme on a vu. Mais avec lui, ça s'agit ses sous et du pouvoir. Il veut goûter du pouvoir, et aumenter (ou bien au moins protéger) ses sous. Les gens qui lui baisent le cul, ce sont ceux qui l'intéressent. Le reste--tu a queques milliards? Il te donne son GSM privé. Non? Il ne veut même pas savoir ton nom.

Il a présenté un question fondamentale de la finance: si tu a dix milliards, et tu dois douze millards, est-ce que tu es riche ou pas? Dans son cas, si on n'a jamais l'intention de repayer ses dettes, alors, oui, on est riche. Voilà, sa formule.

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Response to DFW (Reply #22)

Tue Nov 14, 2017, 11:00 AM

25. Oui mais les rpublicains ?

Ils voient bien qu'ils ont misé sur un cheval perdant non ?

Parce que sa tournée en Asie c'est pas loin de la catastrophe...Ca ne se verra pas tout de suite mais il n'a en fait rien obtenu, au contraire...

C'est ça que je ne comprends pas chez les républicains. A quoi ça leur servira d'avoir le pouvoir si c'est pour couler? C'est pas le "talent" de Trump qui va ramener des sous dans les caisses...

Il est fier de ne pas payer ses dettes, mais ici, les prêteurs ne sont plus des lambda. Ce sont des puissances et qui récupéreront leur mise par tous les moyens.

Alors où est le bénèf pour le GOP ?

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Response to syringis (Reply #25)

Tue Nov 14, 2017, 11:33 AM

26. Il faut voir le GOP comme deux groupes, et pas comme unit

Il y a leur élite, les gens avec énormément d'argent, d'influence, et de pouvoir. Ils vivent comme des vampires, sussent le sang de l'adoration des autres, les "réligieux," les "conservateurs," les "patriotes." Leur élite s'en fiche completement des autres, mais les utilisent pour des buts politiques, et ils le font avec une expertise d'artiste. Regarde le nom "Frank Luntz." Je connais ce mec. Il est propagandiste pour la droite, génie et completement mercenaire. Il travail pour des Républicains parce-que c'est eux qui lui paient le mieux. Il sait manipuler des mots et des gens, et il est devenu très riche par eux. Le bénèf est pour quelques centaines de Républicains. Le reste, ils se font manipuler, et tant que tout celà ne leurs éxige pas à penser pour eux mêmes, ils en sont contents.

En étant européen, c'est extrêmement dificile d'expliquer la mentalité d'un Américain qui habite dans un endroit où il ne rencontrera jamais un autre pays, peut-être même pas une personne d'un autre pays. Une persone comme ça, comprend le monde par Fox "News," et il croit tout savoir. Il ne veut pas savoir plus. Pense un peu aux habitants de Dresde dans l'ancien RDA, ou bien l'Allemagne de l'Est. Dans ce coin là, on ne recevait pas la télé d'Allemagne de l'Ouest. Pad hasard (ou plutôt pas) c'était dans ce coin là où on trouvait les communistes/socialistes les plus rigides et convaincus. Ils croyaient tout ce que Berlin-Est leur disait parce-que c'est tout qu'ils ont eu comme source d'infos. Dans beaucoup du Sud et de l'Ouest, bien qu'on a la possibilité de regarder des autres émmetteurs, on ne le fait pas, parce que Fox leurs a convaincu que tout sauf eux n'est pas vrai. Et il n'y a personne dans un radius de 500 km pour leur dire le contraire.

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Response to DFW (Reply #26)

Wed Nov 15, 2017, 04:23 AM

33. Je vois ce que tu veux dire

J'ai pu remarquer ce phénomène dans d'autres coins du monde. Souvent des coins reculés où parfois il n'y avait ni électricité ni eau courante et quand les nouvelles arrivaient, elles avaient souvent plusieurs semaines. Le seul canal d'information, était le marché dans la ville la plus proche. Autrement dit, au mieux, 1 fois dans la semaine, quand le temps ne permettait pas le déplacement, 2 ou 3 semaines.

Cela dit, ça dépend beaucoup des individus : certains, s'appuyant sur le bon sens et conscients de leurs limites, développent naturellement un sens critique, souvent aigu. D'autres, comme tu le dis bien, avalent ce qu'on leur sert...Et ce sont précisément ceux-là que les crapules endoctrineront le plus facilement. Malheureusement, le réveil est souvent brutal.

Je ne connaissais pas Frank Luntz. Effectivement, les scrupules ne l'empêchent pas de dormir...

C'est typiquement le genre d'individus manipulateur, en paroles en tous cas.

Mais ça peut se contrer, parce qu'il s'agit avant tout d'avoir un discours percutant dont les mots frappent. Et donc souvent, on ne va pas plus loin dans l'analyse et pour un politicien, c'est tout bénéf : le gogo achète ce qu'il vend. Mais pour celui qui démonte un peu les phrases, c'est souvent creux...

Ca fait des années que je plaide pour qu'un cours spécialement dédié au sens critique et à l'analyse soit mis en place. Ce n'est pas pour rien. On voit bien que plus on avance, plus cela devient nécessaire.

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Response to DFW (Reply #11)

Tue Nov 14, 2017, 11:53 AM

29. This post makes me sad.

This morning I read that for the first time, China has outpaced the US in super computers. We are being left behind. Oh, the irony, huh? The zealots think it means left behind on Earth while the good people go with Jesus, but really it just means a deterioration of everything you once knew and valued.

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Response to CrispyQ (Reply #29)

Tue Nov 14, 2017, 01:57 PM

32. We were on such a roll with Obama and then Hillary

And we let ourselves be rolled--and there are tens of millions of Americans who are so in the dark, they think it's a great thing that happened. Coal miners will choke on pollution and die from inadequate health care--as well as face unemployment, despite being invited to share one pen in the Oval Office with the Donald. And they STILL think they got the best end of the bargain.

One would ask, shit, are we THAT gullible, except for the likely answer that, yes, we are.

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Response to DFW (Reply #11)

Wed Nov 15, 2017, 04:57 AM

35. Thanks very much for the update

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Response to KelleyKramer (Original post)

Tue Nov 14, 2017, 07:03 AM

12. republicans following kremlin plan to weaken America

as they are led by Comrade Casino* - the ignoble republican Draft-Dodger-in-Chief

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Response to KelleyKramer (Original post)

Tue Nov 14, 2017, 07:53 AM

16. Whence shall we expect the approach of danger?

"Shall we expect some transatlantic military giant to step the ocean and crush us at a blow? Never! All the armies of Europe, Asia, and Africa combined, with all the treasure of the earth (our own excepted) in their military chest, with a Bonaparte for a commander, could not by force take a drink from the Ohio or make a track on the Blue Ridge in a trial of a thousand years. At what point then is the approach of danger to be expected? I answer. If it ever reach us it must spring up amongst us; it cannot come from abroad. If destruction be our lot we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen we must live through all time or die by suicide."

and more....

"It is to deny what the history of the world tells us is true, to suppose that men of ambition and talents will not continue to spring up amongst us. And when they do, they will as naturally seek the gratification of their ruling passion as others have done before them. The question then is, Can that gratification be found in supporting and maintaining an edifice that has been erected by others? Most certainly it cannot. Many great and good men, sufficiently qualified for any task they should undertake, may ever be found whose ambition would aspire to nothing beyond a seat in Congress, a gubernatorial or a presidential chair; but such belong not to the family of the lion or the tribe of the eagle. What! think you these places would satisfy an Alexander, a Caesar, or a Napoleon? Never! Towering genius disdains a beaten path. It seeks regions hitherto unexplored. It sees no distinction in adding story to story upon the monuments of fame erected to the memory of others. It denies that it is glory enough to serve under any chief. It scorns to tread in the footsteps of any predecessor, however illustrious. It thirsts and burns for distinction; and if possible, it will have it, whether at the expense of emancipating slaves or enslaving freemen. Is it unreasonable, then, to expect that some man possessed of the loftiest genius, coupled with ambition sufficient to push it to its utmost stretch, will at some time spring up among us? And when such an one does, it will require the people to be united with each other, attached to the government and laws, and generally intelligent, to successfully frustrate his designs. Distinction will be his paramount object, and although he would as willingly, perhaps more so, acquire it by doing good as harm, yet, that opportunity being past, and nothing left to be done in the way of building up, he would set boldly to the task of pulling down."

Abraham Lincoln (as an unschooled 28 year old man)

Springfield, Illinois 1838


If nothing else ever grew in the soil of Illinois, Lincoln was more than enough. Transplanted though he may have been.

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Response to KelleyKramer (Original post)

Tue Nov 14, 2017, 08:06 AM

17. It's not suicide......

it's murder by the ultra-right-wing Steve Bannon led GOP. Suicide would imply we had the best of intentions in our endeavors, but failed somehow in implementing them, and out of sheer embarrassment and shame, we committed suicide. Nothing could be farther from the truth with the Trump administration.

Their intent, right from the start, has been to murder the form of government we've been successful with, and to replace it with a nationalistic, slogan filled form of propaganda the likes of which we haven't seen since Nazi Germany. "Make America Great Again" is an accusation by the Trump cabal, that America is somehow failing it's citizens, when - in fact - it's this very Republican administration that's murdering it's citizens by cutting every safety net and social program we have. That doesn't even touch on their dismantling of the State Department, The Department of Education, HUD, etc. etc. etc. This is not suicide, it's murder in the first degree!

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Response to SergeStorms (Reply #17)

Tue Nov 14, 2017, 10:52 AM

23. Way longer. Look back to the Powell Memo, or even to Eisenhower's MIC speech. nt

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Response to SergeStorms (Reply #17)

Tue Nov 14, 2017, 12:23 PM

30. that is a VERY good point

At the very least, it's a civil war, not suicide (although "murder" is more accurate because what they're doing is malicious for the sake of maliciousness)... I also like the title of the title because it kind of implies the question of "why is America DOING this?"

But the main thing is: you're right, it's not all of us.

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Response to KelleyKramer (Original post)

Tue Nov 14, 2017, 10:46 AM

21. K&R

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Response to KelleyKramer (Original post)

Tue Nov 14, 2017, 12:28 PM

31. I'll say it again, should Trump be impeached...

...we still lost. It's going to take a very long time to regain our stature. We may get a sane and good President like Obama, but the other leaders will either out right say it or think it, "yeah and look who came afterwards and you can blame Putin all you want, but he proved he could easily use the divisions in the USA...AND you had willing American accomplices plus a segment of the population willing to look the other way".

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Response to KelleyKramer (Original post)

Wed Nov 15, 2017, 04:52 AM

34. Indeed it is. I hope to Gods there's a safety net at the bottom of that cliff...

Because so far, as Nicolle Wallace says, there is no bottom.

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