Does the Pentagon own a soldier's body?

[lillypaddle]

I understand why they want a closed casket. If I were in Mrs. Johnson's shoes, I'm not sure what I would do. That having been said, she has expressed that she wants to see her husband's body, or at least his hand, something of him. They are refusing her.

How can this be? He is her husband and it's none of their fucking business for her to do whatever will give her some peace. I think she understands that it might be horrific, but it is her decision to make. Or I guess it isn't. How can they get away with this?

[malaise]

1. If that were my husband's body I wouldn't want to see it but

someone close to him would be verifying that it's him before that funeral.

Excellent question.

[Irish_Dem]

2. One possible reason, the type and extent of injury might tell the story of what

happened to him. And the government seems to want to keep it all secret.

Also if civilians start seeing the reality of casualties it might decrease recruitment rates.

[anneboleyn]

47. Well, we the people deserve to have some idea of what the hell happened there. And of course she

should be permitted to view his body even if it is in pieces (the mortician views it anyway so I'm not sure why people seem to think that nobody will see this man's body except for military). I am quite sure she's aware of that possibility, and the military traditionally tells a family whether or not they recommend the remains for viewing purposes. Even if they say "not recommended," the family and well as any morticians that handle the body are not legally prohibited from seeing the body.

I am VERY tired of the gov lying in this case. It stinks to high heaven.

[Irish_Dem]

53. I agree with you totally. She has a right to view the remains after warning

so she can make an informed decision. And we the taxpayers have a right to know what is going on.

[Aristus]

3. When a soldier is dead, his contract with the Federal government is ended.

But rights and privileges (such as burial in Arlington) persist, obviously.

[imanamerican63]

4. In some cases, the body is distorted and unrecognizable.

ie: there only pieces and a full body. Not totally sure, but this was how bodies where Trump'sbrought home in other cases.Trump's

[anneboleyn]

48. This isn't a legal argument, and I'm sure she's aware of this possibility. If she is legally allowed

to see it (as a mortician would of course) then she should be permitted to see it. All of the talk of what sort of shape the body is in is irrelevant.

[panader0]

5. The refusal to allow her to view her husband's body raises questions.

I understand his body may be mutilated or even decapitated, but is
his body really in the casket? I would want to make sure.

[lillypaddle]

15. Plus

I still think it should be her decision as to whether or not to view his body.

[Baconator]

26. There is literally no way to stop her from looking...

I suspect the body was in poor shape (possibly very poor) and it was strongly encouraged that she does not view it in the military facilities or at Dover etc...

The services are done by a private funeral home and there aren't armed guards standing by to make sure no one sees.

[anneboleyn]

49. Exactly. A mortician deals with the body so the idea that nobody will see it is ridiculous. She

should be allowed to see it (and of course a mortician can arrange things so that she can see part of his body or touch his hand, etc.

[Ilsa]

28. I think they can check DNA, or at least blood type. nt

[Baconator]

37. All of our DNA is on file...

[ehrnst]

38. Where? (nt)

[Baconator]

39. Not sure...

I have no idea if my swap from basic training is in a freezer somewhere or if it's all digital. I suspect both.

[ehrnst]

40. Everyone's or just military? (nt)

[Baconator]

41. Just military...

There's the whole 4th amendment thing...

Though there's probably more of the general population in a database than the average citizen is aware of.

[ehrnst]

43. What kind of database? (nt)

[Baconator]

46. Various...

Also the DNA from your deadbeat brother or cousin could be used to identify you...

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=american+dna+database+police

[SCantiGOP]

54. or, DNA could come from

anything in your house such as a toothbrush, hairbrush, cup, etc. I think even the residue left behind from your normal body oils in a fingerprint can yield DNA if the test is sophisticated enough.

[Baconator]

56. Possibly...

My point, six posts back, is that there is no chance that this is not who they claim it to be.

Identified by the ODA, Command team, plus DNA and photos...

[anneboleyn]

44. I totally agree. In the movie Taking Chance the family is offered a choice though they do warn them

that it might be very difficult as he was very severely wounded (I believe it was an ied). For some reason I see people here and elsewhere focusing on the (to me very misguided and irrelevant) idea that she needs to be protected from her own wishes to see her husband. If she is legally entitled to do so then something is up with this, and it deserves to be brought to light.

The republicans are doing their very best to make Hillary and her fucking emails a story again but something is very wrong with this incident. Aside from what is happening to this poor woman, we the people deserve to know wtf our troops were doing there and what happened.

As far as the treatment of deceased marines and soldiers are concerned, Taking Chance is a very well-done and respectful film starring Kevin Bacon as the marine who accompanies the remains of his fellow marine to the young man's hometown and attends the funeral (he doesn't have to but he does anyway). The fact is absolutely fact based and makes the story as true to life as possible. It is marvelous.

[TheDebbieDee]

6. When u join the military, u become government

Property. The government OWNS u and you have no rights or privileges that the military can't take away from u...

But I very much understand that Mrs Johnson wants to see him to get some type of emotional closure or even to be sure that there IS a body in the coffin...

This must be an excruciating time for everyone who ever knew this young man...

[Baconator]

10. Yeah... No...

[TheDebbieDee]

13. Yeah.... No, what?

You don't agree that the military, thru its Commanders, can and does deny rights and privileges to soldiers as Commanders see fit?

[Baconator]

14. I don't agree...

I have rights and responsibilities that no commander can take from me.

I live with certain restrictions, that I agreed to, but to think that "The government OWNS u and you have no rights or privileges that the military can't take away from u..." is ridiculous.

Using that logic my last commander could have stabbed me in the throat as an aid for medical training and faced no repercussions.

There are legal, ethical and moral boundaries that no one can touch.

[lillypaddle]

16. This. nt

[Orrex]

22. "There are legal, ethical and moral boundaries that no one can touch.'

Oh, to live in the magical world in which that's true!

[Baconator]

23. It's lovely... You should visit...

[TheDebbieDee]

24. So u r saying that if ur Commander ordered

Last edited Mon Oct 23, 2017, 03:14 PM - Edit history (1)

U to move into the barracks or surrender ur USAEUR driver's license thereby taking away your privilege to drive that u as a member of the military aren't obligated to obey or else get chaptered or court martialed, etc?

BTW, this is NOT using the same logic as ur Commander stabbing u in the throat...

[Baconator]

25. Actually it is...

You didn't say "Servicemembers have some self-imposed restrictions that come with their obligations in the Armed forces and at times they may have to follow orders that they find inconvenient but are in no way illegal, immoral or unethical"

You wrote with no qualification whatsoever "The government OWNS u and you have no rights or privileges that the military can't take away from u... "

That means anything with no restriction and no consequences for the one doing the taking.

If you meant that people in the military can't do/say everything that a civilian can then that's what you should have written.

Also... duh...

[TheDebbieDee]

30. When you're in the military you don't have

Freedom of speech, right to bear arms, etc., etc and all the other inalienable rights. All your blather abt illegal, immoral, unethical is just that - poetic BLATHER that you have invented!

I'm done with this topic - you have a nice day!

[Baconator]

32. Again... Whatever restrictions I do have are something I chose to accept...

It's not a blank cheque with no limitation... Which is what you said...

Also, it's not poetic blather. It's basic legal terminology from the Law of Armed Conflict and UCMJ.

[TomSlick]

35. Sorry

I got to this to late to chime in. After 27 years as an Army Judge Advocate, I can attest to the accuracy of your position.

Service members have some lesser rights than civilians, e.g. free speech is more limited (it wouldn't do to call the commander and idiot) and you can't just quit. However, service members are not chattel - they have rights which are protected by US law including Article 138, UCMJ.

[Baconator]

36. This one was weird...

... because they knew enough to talk about USAEUR driver's licenses but not enough to know that Soldiers and all service members are not chattel.

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing...

[TomSlick]

57. I take that as someone with bad memories of military service.

Thanks for standing up for sanity.

[Not Ruth]

7. No one owns it

https://www.barkerevanslaw.co.uk/2016/05/who-owns-your-body-when-you-die/

[defacto7]

8. Is anyone to just assume the body is in fact

in the casket? Has there been private ID of the remains? The possibilities are endless without confirmation outside of government control. I can imagine a lot of things considering the present powers that be.

[Baconator]

42. Like what? and to what end?

[Bradical79]

45. How are the psoibilities endless?

Dead and recovered and in the casket, dead and not recovered, captured, or on the run/hiding.

[defacto7]

52. I overstated it. Touche

There are quite a few possibilities. You stated the obvious ones.

[LeftInTX]

9. I posted a question in another thread...

Does the military fund funeral expenses for those KIA?
I know burial at VA cemetery is free.

However, is there at least partial funding for procedures such as body prep and caskets?

[Baconator]

12. Military has mortuary affairs...

Africa is different than many of our bigger AOs though. I can't remember if we had any specifically in Niamey.

At the very least he passed through Germany where most of that was taken care of.

Also, every service member has mandatory life insurance. Usually at least 400 K with an immediate payout amount within 24 hours to help deal with costs.

[LeftInTX]

20. Thanks for this.

I did a bit of Google. I followed the trail of a soldier killed a few years ago. As you stated he was prepared by mortuary affairs. He was dressed in his uniform etc. He was transferred to a private funeral home which provided an option for viewing. The mother didn't want to look, but the father did. Also the article stated that every effort is made to make the body viewable.

So, it would be up to funeral home...

I have no idea if there would be a viewing option provided by the military if the family decided to forego the services of a private funeral home.

[magicarpet]

11. A thorough independent autopsy should be done before Sargent Johnson's body is finally ...

..... laid to rest.

Something stinks about this Niger situation and an in-depth investigation will be required to sort the reality of what happened, especially with this prevaricating liar and his minions in the White (Power) House. Digging through layers upon layers of lies will be required to find the truth of what actually happened.

Rather than having to exhume the body down the road and opening fresh wounds for this poor family. A true and accurate forensic record/document should be made of the body. So once he is put to rest he can be left alone and finally rest in peace.

Something stinks to high heaven about this Niger military mission, why there was no back up security/reconnaissance to protect these men, how/why the locator beacon on Sargent Johnson's person did not aid in his immediate rescue/safe removal, how/why Sargent Johnson was left behind for 48hrs before his body was recovered, military outside contractors being assigned recovery of American soldier's bodies in the field of battle - does respect and dignity take a back seat to the motives of higher profit as appears done in this case ? These issues cry out to be studied, reviewed, and investigated by independent military oversight committees and un-tainted by CYA motivations, intentions, or agendas.

Mrs. Johnson, her immediate family, and friends should not be made to suffer the process of exhuming this soldier and war hero once he is laid to rest.

The inappropriate decisions of this Commander in Chief and his inappropriate behavior during this failed military adventure and his treatment of the war heroes and their families cries out for a thorough review so these disgusting episodes are not repeated ever again.

A book or two should be written for Trump and his minions to read - this is NOT how we behave, react, or respond.

In America we honor our war heroes and their families - we do not intentionally drag them through the mud and/or tarnish their patriotism to our country.

Mr. Donald Trump Sr. and (Former General) Mr. John Kelly are totally devoid of decorum, dignity, and respect - shame on them and their despicable actions pertaining to this matter of the death of this hero Sargent La David Terrance Johnson.

[lillypaddle]

18. You are right on

with your post. In every way.

[Corgigal]

19. If she wants to

She can do it now, poor thing. I don't know what she could do. It's such a basic thing, to want to know what happened to him. It's the first question why?

I'm not sure I would be brave enough, I'm not sure he would want me to know but as my husbands spouse I might want to because I may want to relay the facts to tie kids one day. Then tell them, to never serve.

[Pachamama]

34. +1000

I completely agree

[cwydro]

17. I agree.

I hate to think what she might see, but it is her right.

[NightWatcher]

21. I'm not telling her what she wants/needs, but she doesn't need to see her husband like that.

That being said, if there is anything identifiable about the body, a friend or responsible party with ties to the family could ID and confirm it for the family.

I'm all for letting her see his hand, but we have no idea how bad he was treated or what parts were retrieved from the field.

I'm not a chauvinist pig, but I've had to ID a body for a close family. It's haunting and maybe she'd be ok if his doctor ID'd him and could let her rest.

[yallerdawg]

27. Death of a loved one always brings disbelief.

I don't think Mrs. Johnson will ever have closure now.

They should have done the right thing.

[VaBchTgerLily]

29. She should have every right to see his body if that is her wish! ......

Gov't refusing her does not sound right-seems like a cover up

[Mediumsizedhand]

31. I may not want to see, but I would want verification from someone I trusted.

I can easily find someone in my life that could look at the body and get back to me.

[lillypaddle]

33. Joint Chiefs Chair

Is having a press conference. Just caught part of what he said regarding Mrs. Johnson wanting to see the body. He indicated that they will do all they can to comply with her wishes. We'll see.

[alarimer]

50. I think they are being compassionate here.

It may be utterly unrecognizable, so for her to see it may be too traumatizing. Or maybe there isn't much left.

[lillypaddle]

58. That's very paternalistic

She is a grown woman with children. I'm sure she knows how horrific this might be. But, as with many other things in life, it should be her choice to make.

[Historic NY]

55. There is an intricate ritual.

About 6,700 American service members have died in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, and almost every one of their remains have come through the Dover Port Mortuary. Yet only since 2009 have journalists been allowed to photograph coffins returning from the war zones, the most solemn of rites at this air base. The intimate details of the process have been kept from public view.

But recently the Air Force, which oversees the mortuary, allowed a reporter and a photographer to observe the assembling of dress uniforms for those who have died. A small slice of the process, to be sure, but enough to appreciate the careful ritual that attends the war dead of the United States military.

For each of the war dead, the journey through Dover begins with the arrival of a cargo jet that is met by military officials and, usually, family members. A team of service members wearing white gloves carries the coffins, covered with flags, to a white van that takes them to the Armed Forces Medical Examiner. Once an autopsy is completed, the work of the mortuary staff begins.

Remains are first embalmed and then washed. Hands are scrubbed clean, hair is shampooed. Where appropriate, bones are wired together and damaged tissue is reconstructed with flesh-toned wax. Using photographs, or just intuition, the embalmers try to recreate the wrinkles in faces, the lines around mouths, the corners and lids of eyes.

“It has to look normal, like someone who is sleeping,” said Petty Officer First Class Jennifer Howell, a Navy liaison at the mortuary who has a mortician’s license.

Once the body is ready, the mortuary staff prepares dress uniforms for each, even if the coffin is closed at the funeral with the uniform laid on top of the remains, and even if the body is to be cremated.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/26/us/intricate-rituals-for-fallen-americans-troops.html?pagewanted=all


A relation worked there, he retired before the big Iraq push after 25 yrs.