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Sun Oct 8, 2017, 06:58 AM

So many people here defending Columbus...

Regardless of whether or not Columbus actually "discovered" our fair nation (that had numerous peoples already living in it at the time), he was undoubtedly involved in the rape of the West Indies and a participant in the slave trade.

Columbus established Spanish colonies that forced natives to surrender gold to the crown.
Columbus led an expedition against the Taino people of Hispaniola.
Columbus enslaved native people and sent them to Spain.

We rightfully deplore the continuing government support of Confederate statues, even those of common soldiers who did not own slaves. However, for some reason various folks here at DU continue to support statues and other honors for Columbus, a man who was actually a slaver.


http://www2.fiu.edu/~cookn/cuneo1.pdf
http://www.nytimes.com/1989/11/04/opinion/l-slavery-and-colonialism-make-up-the-true-legacy-of-columbus-866089.html
https://www.britannica.com/biography/Christopher-Columbus/The-first-voyage#toc25449

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Reply So many people here defending Columbus... (Original post)
ExciteBike66 Oct 2017 OP
AngryAmish Oct 2017 #1
N_E_1 for Tennis Oct 2017 #2
Drahthaardogs Oct 2017 #6
ExciteBike66 Oct 2017 #11
Drahthaardogs Oct 2017 #14
yuiyoshida Oct 2017 #24
ExciteBike66 Oct 2017 #117
Drahthaardogs Oct 2017 #143
ExciteBike66 Oct 2017 #156
L. Coyote Oct 2017 #37
Drahthaardogs Oct 2017 #95
L. Coyote Oct 2017 #96
Drahthaardogs Oct 2017 #98
L. Coyote Oct 2017 #108
Drahthaardogs Oct 2017 #129
Vinnie From Indy Oct 2017 #3
ExciteBike66 Oct 2017 #5
sharedvalues Oct 2017 #32
ExciteBike66 Oct 2017 #118
sharedvalues Oct 2017 #136
ExciteBike66 Oct 2017 #154
sharedvalues Oct 2017 #178
ExciteBike66 Oct 2017 #181
sharedvalues Oct 2017 #182
ExciteBike66 Oct 2017 #183
sharedvalues Oct 2017 #184
Orrex Oct 2017 #4
sharedvalues Oct 2017 #33
Orrex Oct 2017 #34
sharedvalues Oct 2017 #35
Orrex Oct 2017 #39
jcmaine72 Oct 2017 #75
Orrex Oct 2017 #76
jcmaine72 Oct 2017 #79
Orrex Oct 2017 #102
Trust Buster Oct 2017 #7
ExciteBike66 Oct 2017 #9
Trust Buster Oct 2017 #15
Hortensis Oct 2017 #61
Trust Buster Oct 2017 #71
Raine Oct 2017 #113
ExciteBike66 Oct 2017 #119
Trust Buster Oct 2017 #138
ExciteBike66 Oct 2017 #139
Trust Buster Oct 2017 #141
ExciteBike66 Oct 2017 #155
WinkyDink Oct 2017 #83
loyalsister Oct 2017 #150
oberliner Oct 2017 #8
ExciteBike66 Oct 2017 #10
oberliner Oct 2017 #12
ExciteBike66 Oct 2017 #13
Midwestern Democrat Oct 2017 #110
EllieBC Oct 2017 #111
ExciteBike66 Oct 2017 #120
jcmaine72 Oct 2017 #77
Bradshaw3 Oct 2017 #106
tymorial Oct 2017 #16
comradebillyboy Oct 2017 #40
tymorial Oct 2017 #45
nocalflea Oct 2017 #57
tymorial Oct 2017 #67
nocalflea Oct 2017 #68
ExciteBike66 Oct 2017 #121
USALiberal Oct 2017 #17
Drahthaardogs Oct 2017 #97
USALiberal Oct 2017 #148
ExciteBike66 Oct 2017 #122
Polly Hennessey Oct 2017 #18
Dyedinthewoolliberal Oct 2017 #22
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standingtall Oct 2017 #19
sharedvalues Oct 2017 #29
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sharedvalues Oct 2017 #36
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octoberlib Oct 2017 #88
Dyedinthewoolliberal Oct 2017 #21
msongs Oct 2017 #23
YOHABLO Oct 2017 #69
tenderfoot Oct 2017 #25
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Alea Oct 2017 #27
Iggo Oct 2017 #49
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Iggo Oct 2017 #60
gabeana Oct 2017 #100
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Bettie Oct 2017 #92
sharedvalues Oct 2017 #28
YOHABLO Oct 2017 #70
sharedvalues Oct 2017 #85
sharedvalues Oct 2017 #30
sharedvalues Oct 2017 #31
HipChick Oct 2017 #38
ileus Oct 2017 #41
yuiyoshida Oct 2017 #42
sarah FAILIN Oct 2017 #44
ProudLib72 Oct 2017 #48
sarah FAILIN Oct 2017 #50
ExciteBike66 Oct 2017 #123
sarah FAILIN Oct 2017 #151
ExciteBike66 Oct 2017 #159
musicblind Oct 2017 #165
ExciteBike66 Oct 2017 #166
sarah FAILIN Oct 2017 #179
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Turbineguy Oct 2017 #51
Sneederbunk Oct 2017 #52
demosincebirth Oct 2017 #53
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Iggo Oct 2017 #55
romanic Oct 2017 #73
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Name removed Oct 2017 #59
tenderfoot Oct 2017 #62
Historic NY Oct 2017 #66
longship Oct 2017 #72
jcmaine72 Oct 2017 #74
beachbum bob Oct 2017 #78
ExciteBike66 Oct 2017 #124
left-of-center2012 Oct 2017 #80
Bradshaw3 Oct 2017 #105
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milestogo Oct 2017 #82
EX500rider Oct 2017 #89
ExciteBike66 Oct 2017 #126
milestogo Oct 2017 #130
ExciteBike66 Oct 2017 #131
Drahthaardogs Oct 2017 #149
ExciteBike66 Oct 2017 #153
Drahthaardogs Oct 2017 #168
ExciteBike66 Oct 2017 #169
Drahthaardogs Oct 2017 #170
ExciteBike66 Oct 2017 #173
Drahthaardogs Oct 2017 #174
ExciteBike66 Oct 2017 #175
Drahthaardogs Oct 2017 #176
ExciteBike66 Oct 2017 #177
GulfCoast66 Oct 2017 #90
cbdo2007 Oct 2017 #91
Ferrets are Cool Oct 2017 #93
Hekate Oct 2017 #94
Raine Oct 2017 #104
ExciteBike66 Oct 2017 #127
Hekate Oct 2017 #146
ExciteBike66 Oct 2017 #158
tblue37 Oct 2017 #152
clutterbox1830 Oct 2017 #99
RandySF Oct 2017 #101
Raine Oct 2017 #103
brooklynite Oct 2017 #107
ExciteBike66 Oct 2017 #128
nini Oct 2017 #109
WinkyDink Oct 2017 #114
raven mad Oct 2017 #115
Buns_of_Fire Oct 2017 #116
JonLP24 Oct 2017 #125
Name removed Oct 2017 #132
johnp3907 Oct 2017 #133
bluepen Oct 2017 #134
ExciteBike66 Oct 2017 #140
bluepen Oct 2017 #144
ExciteBike66 Oct 2017 #157
bluepen Oct 2017 #162
ExciteBike66 Oct 2017 #163
bluepen Oct 2017 #164
ExciteBike66 Oct 2017 #167
bluepen Oct 2017 #171
ExciteBike66 Oct 2017 #172
lunasun Oct 2017 #135
obamanut2012 Oct 2017 #137
LanternWaste Oct 2017 #142
ExciteBike66 Oct 2017 #161
sharedvalues Oct 2017 #145
Willie Pep Oct 2017 #147
ExciteBike66 Oct 2017 #160

Response to ExciteBike66 (Original post)


Response to ExciteBike66 (Original post)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 07:46 AM

2. Well Columbus defenders...

Defend this...

https://www.rawstory.com/2017/10/five-scary-christopher-columbus-quotes-that-let-you-celebrate-the-holiday-the-right-way-2/

-snip-

You’ve probably heard lots of great things about Christopher Columbus and tons of inspiring quotes from him about hard work, god, the sea etc. But those don’t really capture what Columbus and the colonial expansion of which he was part were all about. So, without further ado, allow me to present these quotes that you may not have heard, from or about Christopher Columbus.

1. Conquest: the perfect chaser for expelling Muslims and Jews. You don’t have to be an academic to link Spain’s colonial expansion abroad with its inquisition at home. Columbus made the connection himself. Of course he saw this as a good thing, not a bad one– a killer combo, if you will. He wrote to King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella of Spain

-snip-



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Response to N_E_1 for Tennis (Reply #2)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 08:42 AM

6. De la Casas likely embellished because he preferred

The enslavement of Africans...

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Response to Drahthaardogs (Reply #6)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 08:49 AM

11. Did this guy exaggerate when he said Columbus gave him a native woman as a slave?

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Response to ExciteBike66 (Reply #11)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 09:02 AM

14. What does that have to do with De Las Casas?

And really, as we sit in America drinking a latte, typing on a tablet criticizing Columbus makes me shake my head.

The French sucked too. So did the Brits did as well. Colonization is not nice.

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Response to Drahthaardogs (Reply #14)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 01:21 PM

24. Kinda what happened

In hawaii to my people ( I am part native hawaiian)

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Response to Drahthaardogs (Reply #14)

Mon Oct 9, 2017, 06:16 AM

117. As to the French and Brits,

just let me know when we have a national holiday to honor King George III...

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Response to ExciteBike66 (Reply #117)

Mon Oct 9, 2017, 10:06 AM

143. Uh 4th of July...all those dudes held slaves

And I suggest you read up on slavery in New Spain vs. America. A few highlights....

1) children of slaves were born free

2) slavery was ended 100 years earlier in New Spain than America.

The Brits were the cruelest fucks every from South Africa to India.

I know this doesn't fit your narrative but, FACTs...

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Response to Drahthaardogs (Reply #143)

Tue Oct 10, 2017, 06:03 AM

156. Not sure what this means.

"I know this doesn't fit your narrative but, FACTs..."

What does that even mean? Do you think I am an anglophile or something? I think the Brits were terrible just like the Spanish! Are you arguing that there are "nice" forms of slavery?

As to your comment title, there were no signors of the DI named "4th of July", so the holiday doesn't confer any particular honor upon them individually.

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Response to Drahthaardogs (Reply #6)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 01:47 PM

37. You obviously don't know de las Casas.

I know him well, we were introduced by Frederick Douglas, and Bartolome told me:

"…forty-nine years have passed since the first settlers penetrated the land, the first so claimed being the large and most happy isle called Hispaniola, … This large island was perhaps the most densely populated place in the world … all the land so far discovered is a beehive of people; it is as though God had crowded into these lands the great majority of mankind."

"And of all the infinite universe of humanity, these people are the most guileless, the most devoid of wickedness and duplicity, the most obedient and faithful to their native masters and to the Spanish Christians whom they serve. They are by nature the most humble, patient, and peaceable, holding no grudges, free from embroilments, neither excitable nor quarrelsome. These people are the most devoid of rancors, hatreds, or desire for vengeance of any people in the world … they not only possess little but have no desire to possess worldly goods. For this reason they are not arrogant, embittered, or greedy.… They are very clean in their persons, with alert, intelligent minds, docile and open to doctrine, very apt to receive our holy Catholic faith, to be endowed with virtuous customs, and to behave in a godly fashion."

"…into this land of meek outcasts there came some Spaniards who immediately behaved like ravening wild beasts, wolves, tigers, or lions that had been starved for many days. And Spaniards have behaved in no other way during the past forty years, down to the present time, for they are still acting like ravening beasts, killing, terrorizing, afflicting, torturing, and destroying the native peoples, doing all this with the strangest and most varied new methods of cruelty, never seen or heard of before, and to such a degree that this Island of Hispaniola once so populous (having a population that I estimated to be more than three million), has now a population of barely two hundred persons."

"The island of Cuba is… now almost completely depopulated. San Juan [Puerto Rico] and Jamaica are two of the largest, most productive and attractive islands; both are now deserted and devastated. On the northern side of Cuba and Hispaniola the neighboring Lucayos comprising more than sixty islands … have the healthiest lands in the world, where lived more than five hundred thousand souls; they are now deserted, inhabited by not a single living creature. All the people were slain or died after being taken into captivity and brought to the Island of Hispaniola to be sold as slaves. When the Spaniards saw that some of these had escaped, they sent a ship to find them, and it voyaged for three years among the islands searching for those who had escaped being slaughtered…"

"More than thirty other islands in the vicinity of San Juan are for the most part and for the same reason depopulated…"

"As for the vast mainland, which is ten times larger than all Spain, … we are sure that our Spaniards, with their cruel and abominable acts, have devastated the land and exterminated the rational people who fully inhabited it. We can estimate very surely and truthfully that in the forty years that have passed, with the infernal actions of the Christians, there have been unjustly slain more than twelve million men, women, and children. In truth, I believe without trying to deceive myself that the number of the slain is more like fifteen million."

"Their reason for killing and destroying such an infinite number of souls is that the Christians have an ultimate aim, which is to acquire gold, and to swell themselves with riches in a very brief time…"

"… the Indians began to seek ways to throw the Christians out of their lands.… And the Christians, with their horses and swords and pikes began to carry out massacres and strange cruelties against them. They attacked the towns and spared neither the children nor the aged nor pregnant women nor women in childbed, not only stabbing them and dismembering them but cutting them to pieces as if dealing with sheep in the slaughter house. They laid bets as to who, with one stroke of the sword, could split a man in two or could cut off his head or spill out his entrails with a single stroke of the pike. They took infants from their mothers' breasts, snatching them by the legs and pitching them headfirst against the crags or snatched them by the arms and threw them into the rivers, roaring with laughter and saying as the babies fell into the water, 'Boil there, you offspring of the devil!' Other infants they put to the sword along with their mothers and anyone else who happened to be nearby. They made some low wide gallows on which they hanged victim's feet almost touched the ground, stringing up their victims in lots of thirteen, in memory of Our Redeemer and His twelve Apostles, then set burning wood at their feet and thus burned them alive. To others they attached straw or wrapped their whole bodies in straw and set them afire. With still others, all those they wanted to capture alive, they cut off their hands and hung them round the victim's neck, saying, 'Go now, carry the message,' meaning, Take the news to the Indians who have fled to the mountains. … survivors were distributed among the Christians to be slaves."

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Response to L. Coyote (Reply #37)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 09:27 PM

95. De Las Casas had an agenda and most historians

Say he was probably lying to make his point more salient.

Quoting passages he wrote that are probably exaggerated doesn't bolster them. What is your point? If they are embellished, posting more of them does not increase the authenticity

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Response to Drahthaardogs (Reply #95)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 09:32 PM

96. Probably? Seriously, you are going to argue probably?

Yes, de las Casas had an agenda, defending the Indigenous Peoples from certain genocide, have them decreed human by the Crown and Church, and ending slavery. He was appointed Universal Protector of the Indians to prosecute the abuses. It was his job to write about it and present the evidence.

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Response to L. Coyote (Reply #96)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 09:37 PM

98. Uh no, he promoted enslaving Africans in lieu of

Natives. He sucked too.

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Response to Drahthaardogs (Reply #98)

Mon Oct 9, 2017, 12:12 AM

108. Says you. But you can't document that. Read what he wrote. He opposed slavery.

His claim to fame is his opposition to slavery. That was what set him apart.

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Response to ExciteBike66 (Original post)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 08:01 AM

3. The Russians are everywhere...

Das Vadanya!

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Response to Vinnie From Indy (Reply #3)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 08:20 AM

5. I suppose the Russians were also behind the desire to remove Confederate statues? nt

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Response to ExciteBike66 (Reply #5)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 01:37 PM

32. Russians played both sides on #BLM

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Response to sharedvalues (Reply #32)

Mon Oct 9, 2017, 06:18 AM

118. So were the Russians running the effort, or were they bit players.

And are you arguing that this means we should not remove Confederate monuments?

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Response to ExciteBike66 (Reply #118)

Mon Oct 9, 2017, 08:19 AM

136. Russia seeded issues into public debate

Did you see the fake BLM actors they hired? Who knows what else was done on social media.

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Response to sharedvalues (Reply #136)

Tue Oct 10, 2017, 05:59 AM

154. So now I want you to clarify something.

Do you think we should have Confederate statues in public places or no?

Regardless of Russia's activity in the Confederate statue controversy, there are plenty of Americans who also want the statues to come down.

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Response to ExciteBike66 (Reply #154)

Tue Oct 10, 2017, 09:10 PM

178. But, whatabout the racism in the white house?

Do you think we should have a racist in the white house, or no?
Do you think we should have a liar and propagandist as a press secretary, or no?

Our time is not infinite. This is a critical point in US history. The racist in the white house is going to do far more damage to indigenous people in the next 2 years than ANYTHING having to do with Columbus.

Focus. Work. Stop the GOP and Trump. Then worry about Columbus in 2021.

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Response to sharedvalues (Reply #178)

Wed Oct 11, 2017, 06:10 AM

181. Hey, at least you are conceding that I am not a Russian agent! It's a start!

Of course I agree with you on Trump, I am a member of DU after all.

However, you yourself are now evidence that we can discuss Columbus Day AND Trump at the same time. See, we can try to solve more than one problem at a time! In fact, you wasted a lot more time than necessary fighting this basic fact about multi-tasking.

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Response to ExciteBike66 (Reply #181)

Wed Oct 11, 2017, 11:33 PM

182. TrumpRussia, TrumpRacism are both far more important. We have limited resources.

Only so much can be discussed in one day.
Focus on the racism in the white house, the propaganda in our media, and the GOP donor billionaires who want to hurt Americans for tax cuts. Let's talk about Columbus in 2021.

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Response to sharedvalues (Reply #182)

Thu Oct 12, 2017, 05:52 AM

183. That's where you are wrong.

There will always be more pressing matters, even in 2021. Once again, I ask you to clarify whether you think we should not discuss Confederate statues until 2021 or later.

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Response to ExciteBike66 (Reply #183)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 09:45 PM

184. TrumpRussia and GOP racism now.

And billionaires running the GOP
And right wing propaganda: Fox, Limbaugh, Breitbard
And the need for major campaign finance reform - dark money etc


If we solve these issues others will follow.

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Response to ExciteBike66 (Original post)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 08:02 AM

4. Oh, come on.

Don't genocidal criminals deserve their own statues, city names, and national holidays? How else are we to commemorate the near-extinction of indigenous peoples?

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Response to Orrex (Reply #4)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 01:42 PM

33. Russia propaganda TV in America - RT - has employees fleeing

RT - formerly Russia Today - the Russian propaganda outfit in the US, has employees fleeing.

They are worried about espionage prosecution and Mueller.

This is one part of the Russian disinformation campaign in the US.





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Response to sharedvalues (Reply #33)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 01:43 PM

34. Wait. What?

Um...

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Response to Orrex (Reply #34)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 01:44 PM

35. Russia, to divide Americans, uses RT and social media

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Response to sharedvalues (Reply #35)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 02:02 PM

39. Right, but what does that have to do with what I posted?

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Response to Orrex (Reply #39)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 07:26 PM

75. I'll give you three guesses....

...and the first two don't count.

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Response to jcmaine72 (Reply #75)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 07:33 PM

76. Oh. Russia created the story that Columbus Day is a real holiday.

Got it.

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Response to Orrex (Reply #76)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 07:44 PM

79. No. You missed my point.

I was being sarcastic. Sorry, I'm still a little shell shocked over literally being silenced earlier for expressing an opinion about Columbus that I know from my own experiencs are commonly held amongst fellow progressives and liberals. My mistake, I suppose, was assuming there were any like-minded people here in (of all places) a Democratic forum.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/10029685765

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Response to jcmaine72 (Reply #79)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 10:04 PM

102. Well, if it makes you feel any better, we're on the same page about that.

Strike it from the record and replace it with National Indigenous People's Day. Point me to the petition, and I'll sign it.

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Response to ExciteBike66 (Original post)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 08:42 AM

7. It was 1492. It was a different world back then. History is was history is.

 

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Response to Trust Buster (Reply #7)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 08:47 AM

9. The 1860s were a different time too.

And yet we still don't want Confederate flags and monuments hanging around.

Columbus committed massacres and took slaves back to Spain. Columbus gave a woman to one of his traveling companions. I'm reasonably sure we can find a better Italian to help us honor Italian-American Day.

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Response to ExciteBike66 (Reply #9)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 09:02 AM

15. We committed massacres in Korea and Viet Nam in the 1950s and the 1960s based on the

 

Belief that the Asian people were inferior beings. They foolishly thought that the U.S. military merely had to show up. Seeking to right the wrongs from 500 years ago is a fools errand IMO.

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Response to Trust Buster (Reply #15)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 03:57 PM

61. More than a "fool's errand," most of this is a wired-in hostility toward one's own

among the radical left. They're very like the far right in so many ways, with one striking difference being that the far right is aggressively hostile toward everyone who is different, while the far left is aggressively hostile toward whatever they themselves feel identified with.

Theyr'e both rigidly locked into their irrational reactions, and I OD'd on their constant, profoundly silly, and potentially profoundly destructive attacks in the 1960s.

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Response to Hortensis (Reply #61)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 05:25 PM

71. Bingo. Give this poster a cigar.

 

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Response to Hortensis (Reply #61)

Mon Oct 9, 2017, 02:18 AM

113. TOTALLY on point! nt

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Response to Trust Buster (Reply #15)

Mon Oct 9, 2017, 06:19 AM

119. Yes, but we also don't have a "Westmoreland Day" nt

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Response to ExciteBike66 (Reply #119)

Mon Oct 9, 2017, 08:48 AM

138. Westmoreland was a general in the military fighting in a foreign war 50 years ago.

 

Columbus was an explorer credited with discovering America 500 years ago. I find your apples to oranges comparison to be quite myopic.

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Response to Trust Buster (Reply #138)

Mon Oct 9, 2017, 09:19 AM

139. I'm interested to find out what you think "myopic" means.

You are the one who brought up Korea and Nam. Regardless of how we fought those wars, we do not have any national holidays honoring the men who directed them. In the sense of your argument, I am merely seeking parity for Columbus.

Your original post was that the world was different in 1492, and I agree. That fact doesn't mean we need to have a national holiday to honor the guy who took slaves and massacred natives in the West Indies.

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Response to ExciteBike66 (Reply #139)

Mon Oct 9, 2017, 09:49 AM

141. For better or for worse, the guy is credited with discovering america. I doubt that will change.

 

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Response to Trust Buster (Reply #141)

Tue Oct 10, 2017, 06:01 AM

155. I am not trying to change that, so much as trying to make sure we are not honoring the man

with a national holiday, since he was such a dirtbag.

As for the history of the event, that will always be available in books. I don't think we should have a holiday named after Columbus.

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Response to ExciteBike66 (Reply #9)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 07:53 PM

83. There is no "Italian-American Day."

 

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Response to Trust Buster (Reply #7)

Mon Oct 9, 2017, 07:40 PM

150. History is now

This country was founded on dehumanizing people of color, and not much has changed. Nor will it as long as it is not considered to have been a problem until now.
Celebrating Columbus and confederate soldiers is to justify and celebrate the continuation of that tradition. Dressing it up with "it was a different time" ignores that human trafficking, slavery through mass incarceration, and glaring racial disparities are still a part of US culture.

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Response to ExciteBike66 (Original post)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 08:46 AM

8. No one here is defending Columbus

 

Not even those who think Columbus Day is an acceptable holiday (like me and President Obama).

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Response to oberliner (Reply #8)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 08:48 AM

10. If you are not interested in changing the name, then you are implicitly defending the man.

And I find it odd that you invoke Obama, as if he was a.) never wrong, and b.) wasn't afraid of offending part of his constituency.

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Response to ExciteBike66 (Reply #10)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 08:51 AM

12. That's your formulation

 

If you think everyone who wants Columbus, OH to continue to exist with that name, for instance, is "implicitly defending the man" then that is your own issue.

I invoke Obama because he is a similarly reasonable Democrat and generally admirable guy.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #12)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 08:57 AM

13. You agree that naming a town after a man confers an honor,

and you agree that town names can be changed. This implies that if the people of that town do not want to change the name, then they want to continue the honor (or they have not thought about the issue at all).

Obama had political constraints that we mortals do not have. Obama had to be careful not to raise issues that would lose voters for the Dems.

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Response to ExciteBike66 (Reply #13)

Mon Oct 9, 2017, 12:52 AM

110. How far do you want to take this? Columbia is the poetic name for America - you think

everything with Columbia in its name should be renamed? The District of Columbia? Columbia Pictures? Columbia University? Columbia, South Carolina? CBS is an acronym for Columbia Broadcasting System - the network's official name until 1974.

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Response to Midwestern Democrat (Reply #110)

Mon Oct 9, 2017, 12:55 AM

111. South Park suggested British Columbia drop "Columbia"

Who knew Randy Marsh ideas would take off here.

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Response to Midwestern Democrat (Reply #110)

Mon Oct 9, 2017, 06:21 AM

120. How far do you? We are removing Confederate monuments,

why not remove Columbus monuments. Also, no need to have a national holiday for that a slaver like Columbus.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #8)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 07:36 PM

77. Really? Did you happen to see the thread I created on this topic?

https://www.democraticunderground.com/10029685765

I probably would've received a better reception at Breitbart for daring to point out the obvious about his legacy.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #8)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 11:14 PM

106. Sure about that?

Is saying the English and French were worse a defense of Columbus and Spanish atrocities? Are making equivalencies with other subjugation of peoples a defense? Seems like it to me.

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Response to ExciteBike66 (Original post)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 09:14 AM

16. I am not defending columbus

I am criticising presentism. That is all.

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Response to tymorial (Reply #16)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 02:03 PM

40. The absurdity of applying 21st century value to the 15th century

is well illustrated in this thread. Times change. In his time Columbus was a hero in Spain. Hell he was a hero in the US until maybe 20 years ago. Colonialism was perfectly acceptable until the mid 20th century. History needs to examined in the context of what was happening at the time. By modern standards the Romans were genocidal monsters, but every city in the Rhine valley has a statue celebrating the Romans bringing grapes and civilization to Germany.

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Response to comradebillyboy (Reply #40)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 02:37 PM

45. Exactly yet sadly the use has become fashionable and expected.

To point out the absurdity (an excellent description of this behavior) results in condemnation and accusations of bigotry. We see it everywhere from the media to academia where colleges and universities would rather scrap curriculum than have honest discussion about academic rigor, intellectual honest and the importance of context when evaluating historical events and individuals.

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Response to tymorial (Reply #45)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 03:47 PM

57. It's so much easier to jerk one's knee than it is to think.

Screw historical context, it's all about feelings and who did what to whom.

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Response to nocalflea (Reply #57)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 04:12 PM

67. Ahh yes, feelings.

Feelings. The root of all confirmation bias. Why bother with reason and objective analysis when one can just state something is true because it feels true.

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Response to tymorial (Reply #67)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 04:41 PM

68. "The Age of Reason" - bah, who needs it.

There were some bad hombres living back then.

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Response to tymorial (Reply #45)

Mon Oct 9, 2017, 06:23 AM

121. Christopher Columbus was a slaver,

We have been busy in this country removing memorials to slavers, why do we keep the ones to Columbus?

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Response to ExciteBike66 (Original post)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 09:17 AM

17. America wiped out the Native Americans, yet we still celebrate this country. Correct? n/t

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Response to USALiberal (Reply #17)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 09:33 PM

97. How Dare You!

Interject logic into this absurd argument. Colonization ain't nice. We all reap the rewards. The native American way of life was lost and America was created. Shall the Irish seek to destroy the Coliseum in Rome because they conquered the Gauls?

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Response to Drahthaardogs (Reply #97)

Mon Oct 9, 2017, 05:16 PM

148. Great point! n/t

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Response to USALiberal (Reply #17)

Mon Oct 9, 2017, 06:25 AM

122. The Confederates held slaves, and we are removing their monuments.

Why do we have a holiday for a slaver like Columbus?

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Response to ExciteBike66 (Original post)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 09:25 AM

18. We committed atrocities

in the American West. Oh, heck, let's all leave and go back to Europe. I hear Cornwall is a nice place to live. I mean, after all, we are responsible for our ancestors conduct. No more Columbus, Ohio, or America. Try to remember for whom America was named.

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Response to Polly Hennessey (Reply #18)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 11:56 AM

22. Amerigo Vespucci

is how I learned it..............

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Response to Dyedinthewoolliberal (Reply #22)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 04:00 PM

63. Thanks, dyedinthewoolliberal.

I couldn't remember how to spell his name. Every Columbus Day we hear the same anguished cry about Christopher. Name me a period in history where humans did not enslave, commit atrocities, or demonize another group of humans. If it can be found, I recommend we focus our attention on that time period for certainly it was perfect. We can name all our states, county's, and even our country after that historical perfection.

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Response to Dyedinthewoolliberal (Reply #22)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 04:03 PM

64. Thanks, dyedinthewoolliberal.

I couldn't remember how to spell his name. Every Columbus Day we hear the same anguished cry about Christopher. Name me a period in history where humans did not enslave, commit atrocities, or demonize another group of humans. If it can be found, I recommend we focus our attention on that time period for certainly it was perfect. We can name all our states, county's, and even our country after that historical perfection.

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Response to ExciteBike66 (Original post)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 11:22 AM

19. No one cares about Columbus day

except for those who are playing right into the hands of the right wing who claim liberals and progressives are getting extreme with this kind of stuff. Was over 500 years ago and he never even set foot on North America only the Bahamas.

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Response to standingtall (Reply #19)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 01:32 PM

29. Echoing talking points of Russia and the GOP

Wanted to add that.

Why do we think Columbus is suddenly such a hot topic?

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Response to sharedvalues (Reply #29)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 02:17 PM

43. "Why do we think Columbus is suddenly such a hot topic?" Because Columbus Day is tomorrow!

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Response to Towlie (Reply #43)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 03:00 PM

47. Which nobody remembers until they are reminded

unless they get a day off of work for it which most people don't.

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Response to Towlie (Reply #43)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 08:01 PM

86. ......

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Response to standingtall (Reply #19)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 02:40 PM

46. Except my freaking credit union, who won't process payments that day.

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Response to ExciteBike66 (Original post)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 11:45 AM

20. Columbus was a murder

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Response to rockfordfile (Reply #20)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 01:45 PM

36. GOP (and Russia) talking point

And you're repeating that talking point.

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Response to sharedvalues (Reply #36)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 04:05 PM

65. Talking point or not, it is true.

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Response to pangaia (Reply #65)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 07:55 PM

84. It helps divide Dems. So GOP and Russia like it when we argue

about things like this.

What about the racism in the white house? The racism of the VP? The healthcare the GOP is trying to take away from Americans?

Those are the issues the GOP and Russia DON'T want us to focus on. Because they know they will lose if Democrats mobilize. They will win if Democrats argue amongst themselves.

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Response to sharedvalues (Reply #84)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 08:04 PM

87. Well, then can we argue about..... beer brands?

Like- Närke Kaggen Stormaktsporter Börb’n å Hallon vs Cuvée Armand & Gaston

Tamaki Gold/Signature vs Nishiki sushi rice?


Frederic Rzewski vs Arvo Part?

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Response to sharedvalues (Reply #84)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 08:05 PM

88. Columbus doesn't divide Dems. Everybody knows he was a racist POS, as were a lot of

people of that time. And DU has these OPs every year around Columbus Day. Nothing to see here.

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Response to ExciteBike66 (Original post)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 11:55 AM

21. I'm not a Columbus defender and am glad we (as a nation) are moving away from Columbus Day.

We do have to be careful of judging someone from the 15th century with 21st century mores and values. The historical facts are slavery was a common practice among many cultures and societies around the world at that time. There was no other point of view that said 'wait a minute, there may be people already living there who won't welcome your arrival.'

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Response to ExciteBike66 (Original post)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 01:02 PM

23. spreading the gospel and superiority of christians. worked at the time nt

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Response to msongs (Reply #23)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 04:51 PM

69. They're still at it !

 

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Response to ExciteBike66 (Original post)


Response to ExciteBike66 (Original post)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 01:28 PM

26. Its a good thing Columbus Didn't come to Hawaii

My ancestors would have treated him like they treated Captain Cook, ...**



On February 14, 1779, Captain James Cook, the great English explorer and navigator, is murdered by natives of Hawaii during his third visit to the Pacific island group.

In 1768, Cook, a surveyor in the Royal Navy, was commissioned a lieutenant in command of the HMS Endeavor and led an expedition that took scientists to Tahiti to chart the course of the planet Venus. In 1771, he returned to England, having explored the coast of New Zealand and Australia and circumnavigated the globe. Beginning in 1772, he commanded a major mission to the South Pacific and during the next three years explored the Antarctic region, charted the New Hebrides, and discovered New Caledonia. In 1776, Cook sailed from England again as commander of the HMS Resolution and Discovery, and in January 1778 he made his first visit to the Hawaiian Islands. He may have been the first European to ever visit the island group, which he named the Sandwich Islands in honor of one of his patrons, John Montague, the Earl of Sandwich.

Cook and his crew were welcomed by the Hawaiians, who were fascinated by the Europeans’ ships and their use of iron. Cook provisioned his ships by trading the metal, and his sailors traded iron nails for sex. The ships then made a brief stop at Ni’ihau and headed north to look for the western end of a northwest passage from the North Atlantic to the Pacific. Almost one year later, Cook’s two ships returned to the Hawaiian Islands and found a safe harbor in Hawaii’s Kealakekua Bay.

It is suspected that the Hawaiians attached religious significance to the first stay of the Europeans on their islands. In Cook’s second visit, there was no question of this phenomenon. Kealakekua Bay was considered the sacred harbor of Lono, the fertility god of the Hawaiians, and at the time of Cook’s arrival the locals were engaged in a festival dedicated to Lono. Cook and his compatriots were welcomed as gods and for the next month exploited the Hawaiians’ good will. After one of the crewmen died, exposing the Europeans as mere mortals, relations became strained. On February 4, 1779, the British ships sailed from Kealakekua Bay, but rough seas damaged the foremast of the Resolution, and after only a week at sea the expedition was forced to return to Hawaii.

The Hawaiians greeted Cook and his men by hurling rocks; they then stole a small cutter vessel from the Discovery. Negotiations with King Kalaniopuu for the return of the cutter collapsed after a lesser Hawaiian chief was shot to death and a mob of Hawaiians descended on Cook’s party. The captain and his men fired on the angry Hawaiians, but they were soon overwhelmed, and only a few managed to escape to the safety of the Resolution. Captain Cook himself was killed by the mob. A few days later, the Englishmen retaliated by firing their cannons and muskets at the shore, killing some 30 Hawaiians. The Resolution and Discovery eventually returned to England.

http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/captain-cook-killed-in-hawaii

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Response to ExciteBike66 (Original post)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 01:29 PM

27. Oh look, another thing to be outraged over

I doubt there's a Human DNA strand on the planet that can't be traced back to ancestors that did something shitty to other people.

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Response to Alea (Reply #27)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 03:07 PM

49. Ancestors...wha...?

This is not trying to make you feel guilty for Columbus' atrocities.

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Response to Iggo (Reply #49)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 03:46 PM

56. Good, because I don't have any connection to columbus

and I don't care about something that happened 500 years ago. I do care that while we are tearing down statues, our political opponents are winning elections.

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Response to Alea (Reply #56)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 03:53 PM

60. Do you care about the people who do care about it? Because we're on your side, right?

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Response to Alea (Reply #56)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 09:40 PM

100. Yeah you do

if you live in the western hemisphere, you walk on the footsteps of the first people who developed this land

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Response to gabeana (Reply #100)

Mon Oct 9, 2017, 12:58 AM

112. Both sides of my family were here before columbus n/t

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Response to Alea (Reply #27)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 08:56 PM

92. Exactly true

and morality has changed over the centuries. Culture has changed, mostly for the better.

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Response to ExciteBike66 (Original post)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 01:31 PM

28. Russians want to divide America and democrats

It's good for Russia when Democrats are arguing about things like... Christopher Columbus.


What do you think about Amerigo Vespucci?

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Response to sharedvalues (Reply #28)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 04:53 PM

70. Russia has nothing to do with this. It's about the false narrative they've been brain washing

 

students with for years and years. We need to get real fucking honest.

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Response to YOHABLO (Reply #70)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 07:58 PM

85. Russia is on social media now backing this talking point.

See Hamilton Russian disinformaiton dashboard.

Also see articles like this from Russian propaganda news outlets:

https://www.rt.com/usa/403113-columbus-statue-vandalized-central-park/



So do you still think that Dems arguing about this has nothing to do with Russia? GOP and Russia win when we argue.

Focus on racism in the white house, in the VP, on healthcare, on 2018. Unify and work.

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Response to ExciteBike66 (Original post)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 01:34 PM

30. Yesterday: anti-Putin protests all over Russia





Seems like Putin is weak and that's why he's lashing out at the west.


We just need to resist division, focus on the attacks on our democracy and move forward.

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Response to ExciteBike66 (Original post)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 01:36 PM

31. Follow Bill Browser: Magnitsky act, Russia's attacks on the west

And how Putin has had media figures killed.




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Response to ExciteBike66 (Original post)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 01:49 PM

38. Columbus was a damn dirty liar,mass murder and rapist

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Response to ExciteBike66 (Original post)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 02:08 PM

41. Any Columbus statues to tear down?

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Response to ileus (Reply #41)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 02:13 PM

42. one in San Francisco

not sure where it is, probably near Columbus Blvd, which heads straight from Fisherman's Wharf to the TransAmerica Pyramid Building...





its NEAR COIT TOWER...

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Response to ExciteBike66 (Original post)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 02:20 PM

44. Eve ate an apple. Why are you not having a fit over that?

We don't care about Columbus and this distraction because we have our hands full as it is. This is really the first time I've heard of this "outrage" and it seems pretty convenient as a distraction. Get back to us all after we have the Russian crap settled and Trump is in jail. We only have X amount of outrage to spare right now.

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Response to sarah FAILIN (Reply #44)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 03:06 PM

48. Persephone ate six pomegranate seeds

I'm pissed about that. It means I have to buy snow tires. It means I have to shovel snow. And she was warned not to eat anything while in Hades. I mean, it's not like she didn't know any better.

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Response to ProudLib72 (Reply #48)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 03:16 PM

50. THIS IS TRUE!!

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Response to sarah FAILIN (Reply #44)

Mon Oct 9, 2017, 06:27 AM

123. Why are we removing statues of Robert E. Lee?

If this is the first time you have heard about what Columbus did, I believe you are not very well informed.

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Response to ExciteBike66 (Reply #123)

Mon Oct 9, 2017, 07:49 PM

151. I believe you have very few posts

Just like these other pot stirrers

I have other things I'm concerned with re: living people. Columbus and Lee have both been dead many years

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Response to sarah FAILIN (Reply #151)

Tue Oct 10, 2017, 06:09 AM

159. Oh, oh I get it. My post count is lower than yours so I need not have an opinion!

On the other hand, you only have 1400 posts, so perhaps someone with more might say the same thing about you!

Heck, in a few months I might have more posts than you, then whose opinion will really count?

Next time, try making an argument instead of an ad hominem...

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Response to ExciteBike66 (Reply #159)

Tue Oct 10, 2017, 07:19 AM

165. The difference is, she has been here since 2008. She has a rapport. n/t

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Response to musicblind (Reply #165)

Tue Oct 10, 2017, 07:31 AM

166. Are you interested in making an argument?

I am not interested in post-counts. I am interested in re-naming Columbus Day. I have laid out my arguments, and I am willing to discuss them if you wish.

If you wish to talk about how I have fewer posts than you or someone else, I think you should start a new thread since mine is about Columbus Day.

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Response to ExciteBike66 (Reply #159)

Wed Oct 11, 2017, 01:02 AM

179. You may have more posts than me by next week at the rate you're going

The difference is I am not trying to distract from the really important things the way you and others are. Funny thing, you all have low post counts....

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Response to sarah FAILIN (Reply #179)

Wed Oct 11, 2017, 06:07 AM

180. Once again, how does that mean my opinion matters less?

Furthermore, DU was abuzz lately with posts about Confederate statues, would you also tell all of those commenters (me included) that they are wasting everyone's time and that there are more important issues than mere statues?

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Response to ExciteBike66 (Original post)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 03:21 PM

51. I'm having a bout

of outrage fatigue.

I don't know which outrage to go with.

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Response to ExciteBike66 (Original post)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 03:27 PM

52. The logical conclusion for opponents would be

to dispense with the holiday all together. Too many people want a day off. Even the opponents.

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Response to ExciteBike66 (Original post)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 03:28 PM

53. If it hadn't been Columbus, then who? Henry the Navigator? Captain Cook? And if so, would any

have done things any differently? We don't seem to remember the era in which these discoveries were made.

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Response to ExciteBike66 (Original post)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 03:35 PM

54. I defend Columbus, I get day off with pay because of him.

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Response to demosincebirth (Reply #54)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 03:42 PM

55. Hey, you got yours!

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Response to demosincebirth (Reply #54)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 06:56 PM

73. lmao

Same here.

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Response to ExciteBike66 (Original post)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 03:48 PM

58. I don't give a single shit about Columbus or his Day

 

And neither do you.

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Response to ExciteBike66 (Original post)



Response to ExciteBike66 (Original post)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 04:08 PM

66. Look Columbus never got to America period,

Hispaniola, Cuba, Bahamas, but not here....

[link:http://www.nytimes.com/1986/10/09/us/columbus-landed-somewhere-else-maybe.html|



Poor Amerigo Vespucci gets left out in the cold.

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Response to ExciteBike66 (Original post)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 06:25 PM

72. We haven't yet seen the "CC discovered America" guy yet.

So hold your tongue.



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Response to ExciteBike66 (Original post)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 07:21 PM

74. Careful or you'll be accused of being a Russian spy for speaking the truth about Columbus

I got two hides, personally attacked, and then accused of being a Russian spy for daring to speak the truth about Columbus on this board. I'm still at a loss.

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Response to ExciteBike66 (Original post)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 07:40 PM

78. applying moral standards 500 years later is pretty disingenuous

 

you can condemn any person or any entity using such application. Greater things to take action on today if you care about NOW

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Response to beachbum bob (Reply #78)

Mon Oct 9, 2017, 06:28 AM

124. Then why not leave all those statues to Jeff Davis alone, eh? nt

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Response to ExciteBike66 (Original post)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 07:46 PM

80. When you say "So many people here defending Columbus"

Where is "here"?

I doubt it is DU.

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Response to left-of-center2012 (Reply #80)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 11:08 PM

105. I don't know about many

but there are certainly a determined emotional few. It's strange but it certainly hits a nerve for some, whether it's religious, ethnic reasons I'm not sure.

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Response to ExciteBike66 (Original post)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 07:50 PM

81. 1. Dresden. Hiroshima/Nagasaki. Vietnam. Iraq. 2. So basically you're saying that anywhere one human

 

was living, was never truly "discovered" by a later explorer? Time to re-write a lot of books!

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Response to ExciteBike66 (Original post)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 07:52 PM

82. I always find it kind of bizarre to see historical figures judged by values that were not held

at the time that they lived.

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Response to milestogo (Reply #82)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 08:11 PM

89. I agree, I suppose Aristotle & Plato get the ax next.

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Response to milestogo (Reply #82)

Mon Oct 9, 2017, 06:30 AM

126. Confederates fought for slavery and we want to get rid of their statues,

Columbus actually took slaves, and we want to have a holiday for him?

I would call that bizarre, aye.

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Response to ExciteBike66 (Reply #126)

Mon Oct 9, 2017, 06:55 AM

130. There are many great historical figures who had slaves

and all of them believed women are inferior to men. We aren't celebrating the values that were later rejected. We are celebrating their achievements.

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Response to milestogo (Reply #130)

Mon Oct 9, 2017, 07:01 AM

131. Do any of them have a national holiday named for them? nt

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Response to ExciteBike66 (Reply #131)

Mon Oct 9, 2017, 07:28 PM

149. 4th of July

Almost all the signers of the declaration of Independence were slave owners , 41 of 56.


Game. Set. Match.

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Response to Drahthaardogs (Reply #149)

Tue Oct 10, 2017, 05:57 AM

153. Wait, there was a signor named "4th of July"?

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Response to ExciteBike66 (Reply #153)

Tue Oct 10, 2017, 10:13 AM

168. Washington's Birthday

Sometimes called Presidents Day.


You're Welcome

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Response to Drahthaardogs (Reply #168)

Tue Oct 10, 2017, 10:37 AM

169. Wait, there was a signor named "President"?

As you mention, the day is mostly called "President's Day". Thus, it is no longer really an honoring of Washington, although it was initially.

That said, "President's Day" is actually a good illustration of my point, which is that "Columbus Day" could easily be re-named in order to revoke the honoring of the man, and instead honor something more positive.

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Response to ExciteBike66 (Reply #169)

Tue Oct 10, 2017, 10:48 AM

170. Nope. Go to OPM and look up Federal Holidays

It's Washington's Birthday.

And your claims have been all over the place. You never once said it should remain the holiday for Italian Americans, but have a name change (which I could support). You want to change the entire meaning of the day, which is wrong to do.

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Response to Drahthaardogs (Reply #170)

Tue Oct 10, 2017, 11:00 AM

173. Are you kidding me?

"You never once said it should remain the holiday for Italian Americans, but have a name change (which I could support)."

I also never once said it shouldn't. In fact, it looks like you and me support the exact same solution: re-naming Columbus Day.

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Response to ExciteBike66 (Reply #173)

Tue Oct 10, 2017, 11:30 AM

174. Well, I for one would rather find a less controversial name

But in no way, shape, or form would I want this day changed. It is sad here on DU the people that think the day is for Columbus. Of course it's not. It was made a national holiday to win the Italian vote back east because they generally treated us like shit here.

The largest mass lynching in America victims were not black, they were Sicilian. Teddy Roosevelt called it a good start. We were interred (even Joe DiMaggio's parents were made an example of) They forbade us to speak our language. Rockefeller indentured us as did the railroads. The Irish would not let us in our own Churches and we had to worship in the basement. They called us greasers, dago, wop, and garlic eaters

Even here on DU anyone with an Italian surname is called mafia. They sneered Scalia calling him "Fat Tony", an obvious mafia reference. A well known posters here referred to Scaramucci as a "goomba". All that shit is allowed here.

Why is it on this country that a race of people who ruled the world TWICE, brought us our form of government, the Renaissance, great scientists, and an cuisine that is one of the top in the world (most of french cooking was taken from the piemontese), but all we can do here, on DU is make mafia jokes. It's allowed.

Anyway, It's our day, and it should remain our day. Perhaps if your OP stated "Italian Americans need a better mascot for their day than Columbus", I would support it.

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Response to Drahthaardogs (Reply #174)

Tue Oct 10, 2017, 11:33 AM

175. I am in agreement with you.

"Perhaps if your OP stated "Italian Americans need a better mascot for their day than Columbus", I would support it."

I didn't think this needed to be stated explicitly. I thought it was obvious that a slaver like Columbus would make a bad mascot for any group of people.

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Response to ExciteBike66 (Reply #175)

Tue Oct 10, 2017, 11:41 AM

176. Most people here don't even know WHY it's a federal holiday

So they assume.

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Response to Drahthaardogs (Reply #176)

Tue Oct 10, 2017, 01:08 PM

177. To be fair, it is easy to assume considering it is named after the guy.

Also, my memory isn't so hot, but I think in grade school (in the 80s and 90s) the focus was on Columbus (and the "discovery" and not on a general Italian-American theme.

I did like the idea of an "Indigenous People's Day", but an "Italian-American Day" works as well and is at least consistent with how the holiday was originally created.

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Response to ExciteBike66 (Original post)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 08:49 PM

90. I have yet to see anyone Defend CC on DU.

But I seen many that think it much fuss about nonsense that cannot help The Democratic Party. I fall into that camp myself.

I have also read others post that question the motives in OPs such as this.

Have a nice evening.

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Response to ExciteBike66 (Original post)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 08:52 PM

91. I'm not defending but I did stop giving any fucks around 1572

About what Columbus did or did not do.

Get over it people.

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Response to ExciteBike66 (Original post)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 09:15 PM

93. It makes no difference what he "discovered" ... what does matter is what he did and was...

He was a mass murderer and a pedophile. This nation should be ashamed of "honoring" him with a national holiday.

https://www.thomhartmann.com/blog/2014/10/truth-about-columbus-day-why-are-we-celebrating

Just a snippet of the truth:

Over time, Columbus’ real actions in the Americas have been replaced by a warm-and-fuzzy coloring book story of a bold and brave explorer who set out to discover a new world. But in reality, as we have learned from writings of Christopher Columbus’ own men, the “bold explorer” raped, pillaged, enslaved, and slaughtered people just to get rich.

One of Columbus’ crewmen, Miguel Cuneo, wrote about the scene when Columbus arrived in Hispaniola for the second time, and thousands of Tainos, or what were referred to as Indians, came out to greet Columbus' ships. Cuneo wrote, “When our caravels...were to leave for Spain, we gathered...one thousand six hundred male and female persons of those Indians...For those who remained, we let it be known [to the Spaniards] in the vicinity that anyone who wanted to take some of them could do so, to the amount desired, which was done.”

Cuneo also wrote that he took his own sex slave, a beautiful young girl, who in his own words, “resisted with all her strength,” leaving him with no choice but to, “thrash her mercilessly and rape her.”

Columbus eventually started up a global child-sex-slave trade, shipping off Indians to all corners of the globe. He even bragged about it to a friend in a letter written in 1500, saying that, “A hundred castellanoes (a Spanish coin) are as easily obtained for a woman as for a farm, and it is very general and there are plenty of dealers who go about looking for girls; those from nine to ten (years old) are now in demand.”

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Response to ExciteBike66 (Original post)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 09:22 PM

94. I'm not "defending Columbus." I'm defending our right to not have really stupid fights ...

...that serve no one.

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Response to Hekate (Reply #94)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 10:05 PM

104. Yes, exactly! nt

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Response to Hekate (Reply #94)

Mon Oct 9, 2017, 06:31 AM

127. Go ahead and defend a holiday for the guy who took slaves.

Mighty progressive of you.

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Response to ExciteBike66 (Reply #127)

Mon Oct 9, 2017, 03:24 PM

146. That's most of human history and all cultures at one time or another. There is no land...

...that has not been soaked in blood at some point. Not anywhere.

At least we try in America -- and we do progress, however slowly. Women, who led the Abolitionist movement to free the slaves, can now vote too. You can't just go down to the public square or the docks and pick up a few slaves. We are a deeply flawed country -- but we keep moving forward.

My background is History, and ultimately Mythology/ Depth Psychology. I remember more than one person in my classes pondering why anyone with a religion as rich and beautiful as Hinduism would even consider converting to Christianity. Just off the top of my head I said: the caste system and bride burnings. They were shocked -- they had never considered the effects of the caste system and they thought I was making it up about bride burnings, which remain a persistent and pervasive problem in India. China a century ago? Footbinding. Africa today? Female genital mutilation. And just to forestall any accusations on that front, I am not even Christian any more, so that is not the basis of my argument.

I am a lifelong Democrat, and as women a century ago would have put it, I believe that "progress and moral suasion" will effect the changes we seek.

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Response to Hekate (Reply #146)

Tue Oct 10, 2017, 06:06 AM

158. I agree about history,

but why do we need a national holiday named after a guy who actually stole people from America and made them slaves? You have not explained that yet.

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Response to Hekate (Reply #94)

Mon Oct 9, 2017, 08:42 PM

152. +1. nt

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Response to ExciteBike66 (Original post)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 09:39 PM

99. Adam Ruins Everything - Christopher Columbus Was a Murderous Moron

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Response to ExciteBike66 (Original post)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 09:42 PM

101. I don't care. Give me my day off back!! :P

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Response to ExciteBike66 (Original post)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 10:04 PM

103. whatever...

I'm not getting all aggravated over what was acceptable in the 1400.

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Response to ExciteBike66 (Original post)

Sun Oct 8, 2017, 11:33 PM

107. How many righteous people who get tomorrow off as a Holiday will be taking it?

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #107)

Mon Oct 9, 2017, 06:32 AM

128. My office is closed, and our clients are also closed.

But the problem is not with a day off, as the holiday could easily be re-named.

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Response to ExciteBike66 (Original post)

Mon Oct 9, 2017, 12:34 AM

109. These days i don't have any outrage left for this annual battle

However, tis the season. Thanksgiving/pilgrims and the war on Christmas are coming too. Wooo hhoooooo.

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Response to ExciteBike66 (Original post)

Mon Oct 9, 2017, 02:25 AM

114. If we're going to start being scrupulously honest about our history, let's work backwards

 

from today.

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Response to ExciteBike66 (Original post)

Mon Oct 9, 2017, 04:31 AM

115. I used to laugh about that in grade school, 60 years ago.........

How do you "discover" what already IS?

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Response to ExciteBike66 (Original post)

Mon Oct 9, 2017, 04:50 AM

116. I deal with it by spending the day honoring Peter Falk.



The Columbo statue (in Budapest, Hungary):

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Response to ExciteBike66 (Original post)

Mon Oct 9, 2017, 07:20 AM

133. Time for some music!

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Response to ExciteBike66 (Original post)

Mon Oct 9, 2017, 07:27 AM

134. Finally someone is tackling this urgent issue.



Look around. There’s plenty of things (that actually matter) to be outraged about.

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Response to bluepen (Reply #134)

Mon Oct 9, 2017, 09:21 AM

140. Trump said almost the same thing about Confederate statues...

Way to make the right-wing argument!

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Response to ExciteBike66 (Reply #140)

Mon Oct 9, 2017, 10:25 AM

144. So you think there is no more pressing issue.

Got it.

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Response to bluepen (Reply #144)

Tue Oct 10, 2017, 06:05 AM

157. This is a right-wing argument that you are making.

We can attempt to solve more than one problem at a time in this country.

In your opinion, which problem should we concentrate upon while allowing all other problems to go unsolved?

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Response to ExciteBike66 (Reply #157)

Tue Oct 10, 2017, 07:00 AM

162. I figured you wouldnt address what I just said.

But I wasn’t counting on a straw-man being thrown in at the end. Guess I was giving you too much credit.

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Response to bluepen (Reply #162)

Tue Oct 10, 2017, 07:05 AM

163. Your point was that there are other more important issues, and I agree.

That said, you still have not explained why we must ignore every issue but the "most important" until that "most important" issue is solved.

Or, do you agree with me that we can focus on more than one issue at a time?

Or are you arguing something else? Please clarify.

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Response to ExciteBike66 (Reply #163)

Tue Oct 10, 2017, 07:18 AM

164. So we agree, at least on the first point you noted. Sort of.

Not sure what’s unclear in my original post. Maybe read the words carefully, think for more than 1.5 seconds before making a simplistic knee-jerk response, and you won’t have to have the point spoon-fed to you.

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Response to bluepen (Reply #164)

Tue Oct 10, 2017, 07:35 AM

167. You are trying to be rude.

As human beings, we here at DU are capable of trying to solve more than one problem at a time. For instance, there are posts on DU about Trump AND about guns! Those are two separate issues that both need solving, and yet somehow we are able to think about both.

If you have an issue that you think is more important than Columbus Day, I suggest you make a thread about it. Once you do that, perhaps I will comment on your thread. I promise that I will not give a useless comment like "there are more important issues than the one you are writing about".

If you have no constructive comments about Columbus Day, then I suggest you merely stop responding to Columbus Day posts.

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Response to ExciteBike66 (Reply #167)

Tue Oct 10, 2017, 10:51 AM

171. We agree again. Trump is a problem; guns are a problem.

Columbus Day is not. It’s a marginally (at BEST) symbolic topic that has zero substantive impact on what’s happening in our country and in the world. Just something for people to complain about. That’s my view, and I’ll express it without the slightest concern as to who approves because yes, I’ll point it out when people are willingly distracted from the real issues, such as the ones you mentioned.

That’s all.

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Response to bluepen (Reply #171)

Tue Oct 10, 2017, 10:58 AM

172. You might as well criticize DU posters for commenting about sports.

Symbolism is important, though we agree that there are more important, concrete issues to be solved.

Once again, we can certainly work to solve multiple problems at the same time. At the same time, we can post on DU about sports, cooking, gardening, the weather, etc., all without prejudice to the more urgent work we wish to accomplish.

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Response to ExciteBike66 (Original post)

Mon Oct 9, 2017, 08:16 AM

135. Ha! looks like the biggest defense against your OP is to call you a Russian and the best argument

is they are old and dont care to evolve ethically

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Response to ExciteBike66 (Original post)

Mon Oct 9, 2017, 08:21 AM

137. It is disgusting -- it is EXACTLY like having a Happy Hitler Day in Germany

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Response to ExciteBike66 (Original post)

Mon Oct 9, 2017, 09:59 AM

142. Every holiday, the righteous and pure tell me why not to engage or solemnize for my own good.

Every holiday, the righteous and pure tell me why not to engage or solemnize for my own good, never once realizing what is actually being engaged and solemnized on the individual level, but rather projecting their own abstract principles onto an imaginary whole.

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Response to LanternWaste (Reply #142)

Tue Oct 10, 2017, 06:12 AM

161. You are speaking of your individual experience of the holiday, which is fine.

My point was about the honor conferred by a national holiday, not any individual reverence.

You are free to revere the slaver Columbus, but please don't insist on having a national holiday in his honor. He was a dirtbag.

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Response to ExciteBike66 (Original post)

Mon Oct 9, 2017, 10:32 AM

145. Good summary: Happy Bartolome day

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Response to ExciteBike66 (Original post)

Mon Oct 9, 2017, 03:52 PM

147. So should we eliminate Independence Day?

One of the major factors behind seeking independence from Great Britain was the desire to expand into Native American territory to the west. The Declaration of Independence mentions "Indian Savages" directly.

He [the present King of Great Britain] has excited domestic Insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the Inhabitants of our Frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known Rule of Warfare, is an undistinguished Destruction, of all Ages, Sexes and Conditions.


This doesn't even touch on Thanksgiving or Washington's Birthday and the potential controversies around Native American policy and slavery that those holidays imply.

I think we can celebrate holidays and understand the often harsh realities of history at the same time.



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Response to Willie Pep (Reply #147)

Tue Oct 10, 2017, 06:11 AM

160. Where did the bad "Independence" touch you?

"Independence" is a concept, morally neutral.

"Columbus" was a man who took slaves from their homes and sent them to Spain.

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