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question everything

(47,470 posts)
Thu Sep 28, 2017, 06:32 PM Sep 2017

Images from the Vietnam War on PBS

In the last few installments, I could not even follow. More troops dying while taking a hill and then abandon it; more troops marching in the jungles, get killed and wounded. Taken captive. Anti War demonstrations and the "silent majority" against them.

There was a construction worker in NY who could not contain his rage against the demonstrators. Why, then, I yelled at the TV, are you not enlisted? This clearly was also a class warfare. The middle class educated students (mostly) vs. blue collar workers. Still was hard for me to understand why they continued to support more and more troops being killed. But then, of course, for Nixon, all his political life was part of a class warfare, starting in 1960 when he ran against rich, privileged JFK.

There was the Tet offensive that, really, was a massacre on the North Vietnamese. And they way they killed innocent civilians on their way back north.

There was the MyLai Massacre, when Lt. Calley, the only one convicted, had his sentence reduced from life to twenty years in prison, to three years of house arrest.

No wonder Whiny Donny pardoned Arpaio, this is nothing compared to Nixon intervening in the sentencing of Calley.

During the four-month-long trial, Lieutenant Calley consistently claimed that he was following orders from his commanding officer, Captain Medina. Despite that, he was convicted and sentenced to life in prison on March 29, 1971, after being found guilty of premeditated murder of not fewer than twenty people. Two days later, President Richard Nixon made the controversial decision to have Calley released from armed custody at Fort Benning, Georgia, and put under house arrest pending appeal of his sentence. Calley's conviction was upheld by the Army Court of Military Review in 1973 and by the U.S. Court of Military Appeals in 1974.[94] In August 1971, Calley's sentence was reduced by the Convening Authority from life to twenty years. Calley would eventually serve three and one-half years under house arrest at Fort Benning including three months in a disciplinary barracks in Fort Leavenworth, Kansas. In September 1974, he was paroled by the Secretary of the Army Howard Callaway.[94][95]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai_Massacre#Courts_martial

Still, the haunting images from yesterday were:

Jane Fonda in Hanoi, calling to execute POWs. I did not remember following that closely at the time and this was shocking. I can understand why so many Vietnam vets still hate her.

John Kerry eloquent testimony in the Senate. Do we have to wait for the last person to die in Vietnam, he asked? Mr. Musgrave, one of the Marines who narrates this program, expressed his feelings, how he was there, with many more Marines, so proud and so excited about his testimony.

(Of course, such eloquence just went over the heads of the deplorables back in 2004).

The Napalm Girl. I may have missed it, but by 1972 troops were already withdrawing from Vietnam. We offered air cover to the South Vietnam. Why were we throwing NAPALM bombs there?

At least, we are done with the dead.

Each episode ended with the number of American dead. And with agony I thought: 20,000 at the end of 1967 - 38,000 more "to go." 40,000 at the end of 1969 (I think) 18,000 more.

So yesterday, when it listed 58,220 dead, I could release my breath. This is all.

Tonight, the conclusion. Yes, we left in 1973, but there are still two more years, April 1975, to be exact, for that horrible image of helicopters over the roof of the American embassy, and tossing helicopters into the sea.

I really think that what we have today - a separate topic, really - is almost a continuation of the nation divide from the 70s.


28 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Images from the Vietnam War on PBS (Original Post) question everything Sep 2017 OP
K&R. nt tblue37 Sep 2017 #1
They also listed the number of killed Vietnamese 2,000,000 (it was listed under BigmanPigman Sep 2017 #2
Is Calley still alive? And Medina? Archae Sep 2017 #4
I do not know about Medina, but as of two years ago BigmanPigman Sep 2017 #6
I think that this last segement was the most painful question everything Sep 2017 #12
We trained them to fight our way of fighting Yupster Sep 2017 #18
Yes, I was thinking of Cambodia question everything Sep 2017 #23
yes. lessons NOT learned after all. not when you elect dumbasses like georgee & the twat. pansypoo53219 Sep 2017 #27
Trump is right about one thing law and order. gordianot Sep 2017 #3
A cousin shanti Sep 2017 #5
I know. As I have posted before, I really ache for readers here who were in Vietnam question everything Sep 2017 #10
I graduated High School in 1968 and this was a real eye opener mitch96 Sep 2017 #7
Jane Fonda in Hanoi, calling to execute POWs??? flotsam Sep 2017 #8
There was a clip on the program question everything Sep 2017 #9
I googled "Jane Fonda Execution" flotsam Sep 2017 #13
Jane Fonda Lilma Sep 2017 #11
It does need a link flotsam Sep 2017 #14
I found your "Dr. Dooley" flotsam Sep 2017 #15
And the number of US Servicemen killed was over 58,000 N/T flotsam Sep 2017 #16
Thanks times 3 for your responses. mountain grammy Sep 2017 #24
I am about three years younger and remember how much propaganda we were fed in the 1950s and 1960s karynnj Sep 2017 #25
Good post. I agree completely. FuzzyRabbit Sep 2017 #26
We finally got out Beringia Sep 2017 #17
I just finished watching the final show and I cried a lot too. BigmanPigman Sep 2017 #19
I just a Charlie Rose interview with a director of a film on the shower scene in Psycho Beringia Sep 2017 #20
Oh, I get it. At first I thought, "What does Psycho have to do with Vietnam?", BigmanPigman Sep 2017 #21
Yes, was about your avatar, should have said that up front Beringia Sep 2017 #22
1 uncle went to nam. inlisted & was an MP. he was in it in the later years i think. pansypoo53219 Sep 2017 #28

BigmanPigman

(51,584 posts)
2. They also listed the number of killed Vietnamese 2,000,000 (it was listed under
Thu Sep 28, 2017, 06:55 PM
Sep 2017

the 58,000 Americans).

I tracked down Calley two years ago after I found out that he gave a half hearted speech at his local Kiwanis Club. I wrote a long, angry letter but did not mail it. I figured, "What was the point?". He knows he is a murderer and so do thousands of others. The reason that I initially got pissed off was that when I researched My Lai I found out that at the time he was going through the trial he had received hundreds of "thank you" letters (fan mail) that he was sitting in the middle of with a big grin on his face.

I am surprised they didn't mention Ron Kovac in the series. He was the vet who the film "Born on the 4th of July" was based on.

I guess tonight's final show will be about the fall of Saigon...that was devastating too.

question everything

(47,470 posts)
12. I think that this last segement was the most painful
Thu Sep 28, 2017, 11:12 PM
Sep 2017

Yes, I understood that Congress voted to stop sending any aid, money, people or equipment. Nothing would have changed. As someone said: we gave them rich nation equipment that they could not use. Top of the line artillery and aircraft without spare parts or fuel. But it was still painful to watch.

The North Vietnamese were determined, and no one can fight determined people, even if all they have are bayonet and simple guns. But here they were supplied with heavy equipment from the Soviets and from China.s

And one of the sad comment was that the Soviets and the Chinese did not abandon their allies, while we did.

And, the heartbreaking images of to many left behind. I really don't know why Ford gave the order to evacuate only Americans. Were they running out of space on the 6th fleet (I think it was the 6th).

And ambassador Martin - what can one say?

There was some army person who did not like the memorial in D.C. All it has is victims, he said. (Until he later changed his mind).

And I was thinking: what would he have wanted? Monuments of soldiers in the mud? There was no heroic there. Yes, individuals were heroes, but the whole campaign was one big sad event.

It was easy to sob watching this last installment.

And now I wonder how many have we lost, so far, in Afghanistan. Another campaign that will end where it all started.


Yupster

(14,308 posts)
18. We trained them to fight our way of fighting
Fri Sep 29, 2017, 12:42 AM
Sep 2017

very expensive and tech heavy.

Then we left and started cutting their military aid making our equipment worthless.

In fact the ARVN fought well in 1973 and 1974 after we left. They get a bad rap because they were losers and brown.

In 1975 the disaster started because of lack of fuel. The NVA was attacking small provincial capitals in the underpopulated central highlands. The ARVN would load up their best troops on helicopters and relieve one siege after another. At one point President Thieu made the strategic decision to preserve his resources by giving up the underpopulated, economically unimportant central highlands so he could present a firm defense of the populated coastline and delta.

The retreat was not well planned and quickly turned into a rout. By the time the long columns reached the coast it was a disorganized frightened mob overwhelmed by refugees. The panic spread along the coast. They tried to organize in Da Nang and Hue, but when the NVA attacked, the northern divisions organized an escape by sea to the south and all the sudden 2/3rds of the country was gone without a fight. Some divisions in the south stayed intact and actually inflicted some serious stops, especially at Xuan Loc by the ARVN 18th Division, but then they retreated too with no help or supplies coming. The collapse happened so quickly.

As bad and disgraceful as it was, it was even worse in Cambodia. as the Cambodian Army fought as hard as any army did, fighting back to besieged Phnom Penh mile by mile until they ran out of ammunition, or fuel, which the US congress had cut off. Then they died in the Killing Fields.

question everything

(47,470 posts)
23. Yes, I was thinking of Cambodia
Fri Sep 29, 2017, 03:23 PM
Sep 2017

At least in Vietnam they only had "indoctrination camps." In Cambodia they had a real genocide.

In the Middle East they don't trust westerners because of the mess that Britain and France did after WWI in arbitrarily drawing borders and installing monarchs.

I will perfectly understand if the same holds for Southeast Asia.

gordianot

(15,237 posts)
3. Trump is right about one thing law and order.
Thu Sep 28, 2017, 07:06 PM
Sep 2017

If American Law would have been followed we might have avoided Vietnam among other self inflicted disasters. Trump would have been in jail decades ago. The real crooks wear white shirts.

shanti

(21,675 posts)
5. A cousin
Thu Sep 28, 2017, 08:01 PM
Sep 2017

was one of the Marines who died on a hill in Khe Sanh in June 1968. This was the year of the most casualties. He was only 21. PBS didn't cover the hill battles too much, but finding out that it was all bullshit and the men died for nothing is infuriating.

Company M, Third Battalion, Fourth Marines, THIRD Marine Division - RIP soldier.

question everything

(47,470 posts)
10. I know. As I have posted before, I really ache for readers here who were in Vietnam
Thu Sep 28, 2017, 11:01 PM
Sep 2017

or who lost family members and friends there. And I do apologize if am a bit light.

It is one thing to lose one, another to realize the hopeless of it all.

mitch96

(13,892 posts)
7. I graduated High School in 1968 and this was a real eye opener
Thu Sep 28, 2017, 08:45 PM
Sep 2017

Yes we protested. Yes we knew it was bad. No we did not want to go.. But seeing all the bullshit that came way before and the things the politicians... on both sides of the fence were doing, just amazed me. It was all about their politics, saving face and kicking the can down the road so as not to be the president who lost the war...... My town lost a few and later on I met many vets who were really fucked up after the war... I wonder how many suicides that were casualties of that war and did not make it to the wall??
Pardon my language but I'm PISSED..
M

flotsam

(3,268 posts)
8. Jane Fonda in Hanoi, calling to execute POWs???
Thu Sep 28, 2017, 09:44 PM
Sep 2017

She was never even accused of this-please show a supporting link.

question everything

(47,470 posts)
9. There was a clip on the program
Thu Sep 28, 2017, 10:58 PM
Sep 2017

I don't know whether one can view specific segments. Perhaps later.

Yes, it was a shock.

Some of the stories about here were debunked, that some POWs gave her notes and she gave them to the North Vietnamese. Snopes has a whole chapter on it.

But about the execution - I still cannot find it.

But I know that many here watched it so will wait for their comments.

flotsam

(3,268 posts)
13. I googled "Jane Fonda Execution"
Fri Sep 29, 2017, 12:02 AM
Sep 2017

All I found were a few public calls for HER to be executed for treason. But I also found an article specifically discussing Ken Burns coverage of Jane Fonda in the documentary. Again no mention.

http://www.indiewire.com/2017/09/the-vietnam-war-jane-fonda-vietnam-photo-hanoi-jane-pbs-1201880919/

Lilma

(132 posts)
11. Jane Fonda
Thu Sep 28, 2017, 11:02 PM
Sep 2017

He doesn't need a link. She is shown in the film saying this. I remember her being in the news saying it.

In 1956 I was in the 4th grade. My teacher knew a young man named Dr. Tom Dooley who had been in Viet Nam with the navy. He told us -the entire school- what had been done to kids by the communists.

After hearing his talk I was very much aware of Viet Nam. In high school we saw little stories about advisors getting killed.

After that all hell broke loose.

When I got to college -married with a baby at home- it was shut down by protestors --they were protesting the Viet Nam study center at SIU and the war.

If we hadn't been lied to by so many -- would over 5,000 young men have died? Would this country have stood for them to go? I hope not-but Shit be cray.

flotsam

(3,268 posts)
14. It does need a link
Fri Sep 29, 2017, 12:07 AM
Sep 2017

I saw it on TV is not acceptable. I can't tell you where I was in 56' but I can tell you where I was when she visited-I was in basic training at Ft Dix and though we heard plenty about her visit and her virtues this is the first time I have even seen this suggested.

flotsam

(3,268 posts)
15. I found your "Dr. Dooley"
Fri Sep 29, 2017, 12:11 AM
Sep 2017

After his death, the public learned that Dooley had been recruited as an intelligence operative by the Central Intelligence Agency, and numerous claims of atrocities by the communist Viet Minh in his book Deliver US From Evil had been fabricated. He has been called the "key agent in the first disinformation campaign of the Vietnam War," garnering support for the US government's growing involvement there.[2]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Anthony_Dooley_III

karynnj

(59,501 posts)
25. I am about three years younger and remember how much propaganda we were fed in the 1950s and 1960s
Fri Sep 29, 2017, 03:52 PM
Sep 2017

I remember in the early 60s, the local Catholic church speaking about how the Catholics of Vietnam were persecuted by the atheist communists in many sermons. I remember that nearly anything I could find in the school library about Vietnam sounds like you describe.

By the way, here is more on Dr Tom Dooley - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Anthony_Dooley_III He was working for the CIA.


In 1956, Dooley's book Deliver Us from Evil was released and became a best-seller, establishing him as an icon of American humanitarian and anti-communist activities abroad. Dooley's vivid accounts of communist atrocities committed on Catholic refugees appear to have been fabricated. In 1956, U.S. officials who were stationed in the Hanoi-Haiphong area during Dooley's tour of duty submitted a lengthy report to the U.S. Information Agency holding that Deliver Us from Evil was "not the truth" and that the accounts of Viet Minh atrocities were "nonfactual and exaggerated." The government kept the report classified for nearly thirty years, however.[9
]

To some degree, I think that was part of the feeling of betrayal by our country that was one source that fueled the intense anger against the war on campuses in the late 60s. At least for white kids, we were a generation that at least until late high school actually believed every bit of the American mythology. The US, was by definition a force for good in the world. We fought the bad guys. We were a benevolent country with equal rights for all. First our myopic view of domestic America was shattered by the violence against blacks and the eloquence response. Then, we learned that almost everything we were taught about the reason we were in Vietnam was a lie.

Later many used the bright psychedelic art, wonderful music and hippies of the late 60s/early 70s to ignore that in addition to all of that, it was a time of many protest movements that changed the country - civil rights, the anti war movement, the woman's movement, earth day and renewing the environmental movement, and the beginning of the gay rights movement on some campuses. The angry reaction to finding that the pretty stories about our country that we grew up on were lies forged an anger that left more people open to making systemic change.

Beringia

(4,316 posts)
17. We finally got out
Fri Sep 29, 2017, 12:14 AM
Sep 2017

I felt the sorrow more so in this last segment. Ford seemed like he might have been an honest president, though I don't know his history.

BigmanPigman

(51,584 posts)
19. I just finished watching the final show and I cried a lot too.
Fri Sep 29, 2017, 01:25 AM
Sep 2017

I AM ANGRY! I am angry that the ambassador wouldn't face the facts and help people leave earlier, he wouldn't even cut down a fucking tree for the helicopters to land. I am angry that Congress wouldn't give Ford any money to support them after we called a cease fire. I am angry that the wonderful memorial was criticized. And I am angry that humans do not learn from history and always repeat mistakes.


I AM GLAD Burns and Novick made this series and it is appreciated.

BigmanPigman

(51,584 posts)
21. Oh, I get it. At first I thought, "What does Psycho have to do with Vietnam?",
Fri Sep 29, 2017, 01:56 AM
Sep 2017

except for the obvious fact that the whole thing was really psycho then I realized you were writing about the picture I chose for my profile avatar.

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