I have deliberately avoided the Bernie Wars.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

But given the current circumstances I feel it is incumbent upon me to weigh in.

Bernie and Amy Klouchbar better make Bill Cassidy and Lindsey Graham look stupid in their upcoming health care debate. The stakes can not be higher. Failure is not an option They must crush them and their utter defeat needs to be apparent to most Americans, not just to the members of this board.

God's speed, Bernie and Amy. The lives of many working class and middle class Americans rest on your efforts.

[virtualobserver]

1. Murdercare cannot be defended

Graham and Cassidy may try to make it about single-payer, but that is not what the upcoming vote is about.

Bernie and Amy don't even have to address single-payer. They can simply stay on the attack, and they will.

The Republicans have trapped themselves.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

2. It can't be defended to you and me.

And regardless of what happens on Monday night everybody here is going to say we won. Graham-Cassidy is an abomination. I hope that is the consensus of Americans after watching the debate and more importantly the reviews of it as most Americans won't be watching.

[elehhhhna]

30. Just don't hold your breath waiting for Dana Bash to call out the lies and bullshit

[kstewart33]

29. They should not even mention single payer.

The subject of the debate is the G-C bill. If Bernie mentions single payer, Graham will respond with his 'Bernie is a socialist and single payer is a Commie plan and an attack on our democracy' bit. And Graham wins because the debate will become about something having nothing to do with the terrible content of the G-C bill.

Before we can even address single payer, the G-C bill, the subject of the debate, must be defeated.

My fear is that Bernie, not a details guy, won't let go of his agenda and instead focus his comments on killing the bill.

[brush]

34. Is Sanders the right pick for this debate? You just know single-payer is going to be brought up...

by the repugs trying to tie it around Sanders' neck to score points.

If an actual Democratic senator was there single-payer could not be tied to him/her.

Have we been set up?

Seems to me the only reason Sanders is in the debate is because of his pushing of single payer, with repugs hoping to turn it into trumpcare v socialism debate, which of course would not be good for us.

[kstewart33]

38. Probably not a setup.

But a real problem. I would have liked a Dem Senator (e.g., Chris Murphy, Cory Booker) who have argued very persuasively against Graham-Cassidy on MSNBC and they have a solid understanding of the bill's weaknesses.

Don't underestimate Klobucher. She's low-key but she skillfully blew through Gorsuch's smarm in his Senate hearing and persistently asked some very good questions.

[Ninsianna]

52. It's not Klobuchar I'm worried about.

[onit2day]

40. And why not.Compared to single payer Graham"s

bill looks even more monstrous. Graham will attack the messenger no matter what. He always tries to provoke a fight with his condescending authoritarian manner. He will lie and use emotional blackmail to belittle whomever he is speaking to. His policy is indefensible so of course he will attack the personalities. He will try to present a fairy tale as his health care plan as he insults and mocks those who disagree or represent reality. Bernie is an honest good man who cares about the people and Graham is not. Democratic Socialism flourishes already in America and is the only form of government which both ensures our freedom AND our survival as we protect what is necessary for survival, coming together to decide how we do that.

[brush]

50. All of that is good but most people don't know Democratic Socialism from socialism.

Socialism is a bogeyman word and once it's in the conversation the repugs will be off and running with it.

It's kinda like a perverse Godwin's Law, whoever introduces it into the debate first, the repugs win.

But it's probably not going to matter now as it seems McCain has come out against trumpcare again and there's not much change of it passing. But we still need to concentrate on saving the ACA until after Sept. 30th when the repugs can no longer somehow pass trumpcare with only 51 votes.

[kstewart33]

61. All true.

But why give Graham an opening?

My concern also is that much of the public is not ready to support single payer. Keep in mind that about 92% of the public is insured by their employer. Yes, premiums are rising, but when you look at the data, the increases aren't much, yet.

People are reluctant to give up what they know they have for something that they're not sure will work. It's why most people are reluctant to change jobs or careers. There's comfort that comes with the security of what you have.

I don't think the public is ready for it. I support single payer, but I'm not sure I'm ready for it either. Mainly because making it work structurally and with all of the major players in healthcare will require a degree of analysis, hard work and preparation that so far, Congress is simply not capable of doing.

So I want to do it in steps. Stabilizing the ACA market and then going from there.

[Demsrule86]

99. Because we are talking about the ACA...single payer is not possible.

And the GOP is using single payer top try to kill the ACA. This debate is a setup...a trap for Sen. Sanders.

[lapucelle]

164. According to the Washington Post, CNN went to Sanders directly,

and many Democrats found out about Monday's event after the fact. As per WaPo:

The chief sponsors of the GOP’s 11th-hour effort to curtail the Affordable Care Act will debate two of their Senate opponents, Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) and Sen. Amy Klobuchar (D-Minn.), on Monday night — an arrangement that surprised some of Sanders’s Democratic colleagues, who learned about the debate when host network CNN blasted out a news release.

According to Sanders spokesman Josh Miller-Lewis, CNN came to the senator with the idea earlier in the week, and Sanders signed on without hesitation.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/wp/2017/09/21/sanders-and-klobuchar-book-cnn-debate-with-cassidy-and-graham/?utm_term=.cef6589bdb83

[Ninsianna]

51. They don't have to address SP, but can they avoid being distracted?

[virtualobserver]

57. Easily.....the Republican bill is an abomination

they have to attack, attack, attack.

To quote Terry McAuliffe, The Cassidy-Graham bill is "nothing more than a tax cut for the rich which throws tens of millions off of healthcare."

How many people will die because of that tax cut?

It is impossible to defend a bill like that against Bernie Sanders.

[Ninsianna]

60. He's not a good debater, he gets distracted easily and he doesn't have the facts

at his fingertips. His poorly timed roll out of the M4A bill is what's setting up the GOP false dichotomy.

I know what they have to do, I know what they're up against, and I know the skills at hand here.

I hope better people are prepping Bernie for the BS he's going to be dealing with. We need calm, factual, persuasive argument.

My worries is that after seeing prior performances I don't think he can stay on topic.

He's a poor debater in a forum like this, and it's not impossible that he's going to be baited into providing yet more ammunition to the GOP who are already using him as the foil to avoid defending their indefensible bill.

[virtualobserver]

62. give me an example of a poor performance

[Ninsianna]

67. Every debate is an example.

His Townhalls, his interaction with anyone asking questions, be it constituent or journalist.

[virtualobserver]

70. so, you think that he sucks universally....

whereas in reality, he is the most popular politician in the US.

[Ninsianna]

71. I think he's a poor debater because he cannot effectively form coherent arguments that

are backed up by evidence he can produce while engaging in debate. He cannot answer arguments well. He has poor rhetorical skills and is generally proves himself to be unprepared to understand or address a wide variety of issues that he's not a familiar with and given his very narrow focus, he is not widely or deeply versed in the topics he's dealing with.

So I think that countering the argument that he's a poor debater with "but he's soooooo popular, all the people who're asked in silly polls if they like him or Steve Bannon, like him better!11!11" is a poor argument.


See reality is that anyone who understands how to read polls, how to understand what "He's a bad debater and can't answer questions well" knows that this is a rather silly strawman.

That's a fallacy of argument when someone cannot answer an point of debate and instead chooses to present an argument of their own creation that they wish had been offered because they think they can defeat it more easily.

So he sucks universally at answering questions and engaging in debate, the reality is that he does, and deflections with debunked polls don't in anyway answer the point I have made.


In reality, my point stands and the "most popular politician in the US" in a field including a limited number of people, with a limited number of poliiticans, and an even more limited number of active office holders is, well, just a sad hill to die on.

I mean if it makes you feel better the god awful debater who lost every debate and can't answer simple questions asked by his constituents and journalists, is the BESTEST politician in the US and the planet, when choosing between Trump, Pence and Ted Cruz!

OMG, soooooo POPULAR compared to those guys! Happy now? It's pointless, it's silly and it's not on topic.

I'm guessing that this failure to recognize what's being said, the topic being discussed and a general failure to appreciate what debate skills actually are, are what's so upsetting when people factually assess your favorite politician's rhetorical skills.

Those who do understand what debate skills are and have seen the way these guys answer questions are quite well aware of his lack of proficiency, and that has nothing to do with the man himself.

[virtualobserver]

73. No, my point is that he doesn't persuade you....but he persuades millions of others.

That doesn't make him a poor debater, just one that you do not agree with.

This isn't debate club. Bernie has the power to persuade, whether you like his particular style or not.

[Ninsianna]

76. If that was your point, you failed to make it.

His poor debate skills make him a poor debater, no matter how one chooses to twist facts and reality by referring to "popularity poll", they don't support the belief that Bernie Sanders is a Masterdebater.

Evaluating debate skills has nothing to do with being persuaded or agreeing with anyone. My point is that some people don't quite understand what debate skills are, and you've made my point.

If only he had the power of persuasion, he might have persuaded "millions of others" to come out and vote on Nov 8th, but he was unable to. Facts are facts, and they don't require anyone's agreement.

His style is terrible, his skills nonexistent, and stating things that are empirically, demonstrably false doesn't magically grant him skills, either debating or persuasion that he simply does not possess and have never demonstrated.

This is the problem with the cult of personality, simple factual, evidence based statements are rejected because of swooning acolytes screaming about their personal agreement and popularity.

That's just not how reality works, agreement with it is not required, but it's healthy to be able to accept it.

[virtualobserver]

79. All you offer is your opinion.

Persuasion is all that matters in politics. Your evaluation of Bernie's "debate skills" is just your opinion.


You have no idea how few might have voted for Hillary if Bernie hadn't persuaded them.

[Ninsianna]

85. Indeed, one that's backed up by reality that he keeps failing to

persuade people.

And your denial of reality, past performance and history to claim that Bernie is a masterdebater is your opinion, which is not backed up by reality.

He couldn't even persuade his own people to come out and vote, or anyone to sign on to any of the bills he was proposing over his long career.

I know how many have stated that they were going to vote for the nominee, and I know how many chose to vote for Trump and how many were so vocal about choosing to be unpersuaded by your masterdebater to make an intelligent vote in this past election.

We saw the ballots, your opinion about Bernie's masterdebater skills doesn't change facts, all you offer is opinion that defies reality, facts and the uncomfortable stats, tweets, videos and the testimony of numerous people about his lack of persuasive skills. Either you think he has them and just has never chosen to use them or you can admit that he's not infallible, he's not perfect, he's only human and he just doesn't measure up on this aspect.

[virtualobserver]

86. you continue to post your opinion, which does not persuade

[Ninsianna]

90. You continue to post yours that Bernie is a masterdebater

but keep losing the argument because you lack any evidence that your opinion is somehow based in reality, or facts or anything other than a desire to believe something that is not empirically true.

[virtualobserver]

91. I never said that Bernie was a "masterdebater"

Bernie is sincere and truthful and speaks from the heart.......Most others are playing word games.

People can see that clearly, therefore he persuades.

[Ninsianna]

100. You keep claiming that debate equals persusasion, while ignoring the fact tha this history

doesn't show much evidence that he's persuasive.

He plays word games too, when caught being untruthful for instance.

People can indeed see clearly what he's doing, that's why he has a poor track record at persuading people.

Couldn't persuade people to vote.

Therefore not persuasive.

There is lots and lots of coverage in the media that addresses the opinion you have of the man is not backed by actions or words, but that's beside the point here, since I was merely addressing his participation in the debate on CNN at this inopportune time with a man whose skills have not been up to the task in any other debates, townhalls etc.

Your "masterdebater" has not been persuasive. That's a fact. Therefore you are incorrect, your opinion is not backed by facts, while my analysis stands when actual debate performance and any metric of persuasiveness is used.

Votes, endorsements, working with others to pass legislation, these are the metrics, and he has failed them.

I can only hope that someone is schooling him for this little stunt and he demonstrates the skills he has not thus far, which is acolytes claim for him without evidence. He's not even good at word games.

[Pauldg47]

124. Are you for real?

[Ninsianna]

125. Are you?

[ChubbyStar]

127. Are you a trusted and beloved US Senator?

No.

[Ninsianna]

129. Neither are you, so if I'm to be silenced, I'll have a great deal of comany

won't I? You're seeing a whole page of people who don't trust this "beloved" Senator to actually carry his own in this debate.

So you, Bernie and I should all shut up, per your rather odd little rules, since none of us are "trusted and beloved US senators".

[ChubbyStar]

133. Silenced? My odd little rules?

Jaysus, shit howdy...I'm laughing too hard to finish this.......

[Ninsianna]

134. yeah, that was my reaction to your posts as well.

There were several that were unintentional comical.

[Demsrule86]

101. Those people already agree with him. He is not a good debater.

Lot's of people are not...I can't understand why he even agreed to this...just a chance for the GOP to spew their poison and lies.

[virtualobserver]

104. he persuades

Bernie will hold their feet to the fire.

[Demsrule86]

110. I was a debater...and he is not good. Those who are agree with him are

moved...everyone else not so much.

[virtualobserver]

112. He persuaded 18 Senators to sign onto his single payer bill.

He sounds pretty persuasive to me.

Single payer was not being discussed in Washington until Bernie made it one of his signature issues.

[Demsrule86]

119. Persuaded? I don't think so.

[virtualobserver]

122. Kirsten Gillibrand thinks so. I'll trust her judgment.

[Demsrule86]

137. That makes one of us...endorsing a single payer bill during the fight for the ACA has crossed her

and the others off my list as to who I will vote for in the 2020 primary. It was foolish thing to do. Of course, I would vote for her or any other Democrat in the election but not the primary...I just think it show a true lack of judgement.

[virtualobserver]

138. what Gillibrand "gets" is that it is easier to get what you want in a negotiation between A and Z...

than it is with a negotiation between A and C, where C is your minimum requirement.

[Demsrule86]

141. She did not want to be attacked as those who have not come out for single payer are on a daily basis

[virtualobserver]

142. if you want to believe the worst in people, that is fine.

I believe that she is a Democrat who cares about people.

[Ninsianna]

128. No, he didn't. They did some political calculations, they didn't succumb to

the persuasions of the "masterdebater".

Single payer has been discussed in Washington since 1935.

This talking point seems to be really popular among those who literally have no clue about what Single Payer is, or any knowledge of its history in government, political discourse and debate, but John Dingell Sr., a FDR Democrat had been introducing a bill since 1935, as did his son after him. Both served in the Congress for decades. Also John Conyers.

You guys really like to erase all of history to credit Bernie for everything, don't ya?

See, people who actually know stuff are well aware it's not about persuasion, and they know what the topic is and how long it's been discussed in Washington, They even know who discussed it, the woman who won more votes than any man in the last election, and any white man in history.

[Promee]

121. I quite agree with you.

He is a miserable debater. He has four or five talking points that he must pivot to every time he is out of his depth on a topic...which is often and there are times I find him painfully inarticulate.

Elizabeth Warren is better at being him than he is.

They invited him to that debate to roll him. They want him to make the debate about single-payer and he's going to oblige.

[Ninsianna]

130. They've already done so, that whole press conference the other day was attacking Obama and

bringing up the specter of Bernie and "socialized medicine" though literally NO ONE knows that that term even means.

Terrible political calculation and an overweening ego are at play here, and it's helping the GOP with their dangerous and nasty bill that NO ONE likes. Instead of being destroyed by it, they get to deflect from it.

Thanks, Bernie. All you had to do was wait a week.

[George II]

77. Oh geeze....here we go again. So tell us....

...in what manner is he "the most popular politician in the US"?

[virtualobserver]

81. You are familiar with the polls.

[George II]

83. Right, and in none of them is he "the most popular politician in the US".

[virtualobserver]

84. the most popular active politician, then

[Ninsianna]

88. Than Donald Trump and Mike Pence, and not even very much more than them

I mean you're in a field with Trump/Pence and Cruz and you only a few percentage points more popular than they are?

Not very popular, even when the deck is stacked in his favor. It's just a weird hill to die on, but when the evidence does not back up your claims that Bernie is a masterdebater, silly strawman arguments are all one can turn to.

[virtualobserver]

92. That is the way that it works.....You just have to be more popular than everyone else.

the masterdebater claim is YOUR strawman, not mine.

[Ninsianna]

105. Except he never has been. That's why all this jr high school popularity

contest obsession is patently ridiculous.

It's not a strawman, it's the claim you keep making while dismissing mine as "mere opinion" as if yours were something else, despite the evidence to the contrary.

You claimed that debate was persuasion that Bernie was the master at both. It's your claim own it, and accept that the evidence doesn't not show that he has many skills at persuasion, not with convincing people to endorse him, sign on to his bills, or to convince anyone to vote as he directed them to.

That's either because he chose not to, which is the conclusion from your line of opinion, or he merely lacked the skills to do so.

Which conclusion would you prefer?

[George II]

96. Not even that.

[virtualobserver]

97. who is more popular, then?

[George II]

98. A number of politicians are "popular" among a larger group of voters than him.

[virtualobserver]

102. so, none of them are as popular as Sanders then

you are playing with words

[George II]

109. Yes they are, and I'm not "playing with words", I'm realistically looking at facts.

[virtualobserver]

113. you are not presenting any facts, you are making assertions

[George II]

114. Sorry, YOU have not presented any facts, just a sweeping proclamation about the relative....

...."popularity" of politicians based on whatever.

[virtualobserver]

115. I referred to polls......you have not revealed the source of your information.

[George II]

116. Well, I originally responded to this:

"whereas in reality, he is the most popular politician in the US."

And then you referred to "polls", not polls. You haven't specified a single poll that confirms you sweeping proclamation. Probably because there aren't any polls that have confirmed it.

If you can cite a single poll with a methodology that realistically confirms what you said about his "popularity", I'll agree with you. Until then, I don't see any reason to consider him the most "popular". Fair?

[virtualobserver]

117. I have shown those polls before, and I am sure that you have seen them.

http://www.newsweek.com/bernie-sanders-most-popular-politician-655315


http://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/329404-poll-bernie-sanders-countrys-most-popular-active-politician

[George II]

118. Here is the methodology of that poll, and the limited, cherry-picked choices for respondents....

Methodology:

This survey was conducted online within the United States between August 17-22, 2017 among 2,263 registered voters by The Harris Poll. The results reflect a nationally representative sample. Results were weighted for age within gender, region, race/ethnicity, marital status, household size, income, employment, and education where necessary to align them with their actual proportions in the population. Propensity score weighting was also used to adjust for respondents’ propensity to be online.

1. It is an online poll, which the pollsters all but admit is inaccurate by their last statement.
2. Results were weighted for a variety of factors, possibly subjectively (they don't say), further contributing to its inaccuracy.
3. As in points 1 and 2, the results were weighted, possibly subjectively (they don't say), based on how much time respondents might be online.

Respondents were able to choose only from a limited, cherry picked group of 12 "active politicians", not ALL of whom are politicians or are active:

Donald Trump
Hillary Clinton
Bernie Sanders
Mike Pence
Paul Ryan
Nancy Pelosi
Elizabeth Warren
Mitch McConnell
Jeff Sessions
Stephen Bannon
Chuck Schumer
Rex Tillerson

The results clearly determine who is most "popular" of only those 12, not "all" politicians.

Politicians not included in this list are Kamala Harris, Cory Booker, Patty Murray, Jerry Brown, Andrew Cuomo, Kirstin Gillibrand, Martin O'Malley, Tim Kaine, John Kasich, Al Franken, Sherrod Brown, Amy Klobuchar (need I go on?) How do we know that none of those politicians might have wound up being rated higher that the 12 listed by the pollster?

Not only that, but the conclusion drawn is that the field was composed of "active" politicians at time of the poll (late August). However, at that time Hillary Clinton was no longer an active politician, and Stephen Bannon (who was NEVER a "politician" anyway) had already been fired from his position in the administration.

So now you see all of the flaws in that so-called "poll"?

[virtualobserver]

123. I've seen multiple polls this year. Bernie outpolls the field in all of them

Most of the people in your list are practically unknown to the general public.

I realize that it is impossible for you to even allow a positive thought about Bernie to enter your head.

It will unfortunately be a sad world for you as Bernie's success continues to grow.

[Ninsianna]

126. Um, yeah, that's kinda why he "wins" all these popularity polls you keep insisting

mean something, though you're not sure what exactly.

I understand that all those "positive thoughts" crowd out any element of reality getting in, but it's a sad world where Bernie's not having much success at all.

I mean I hope he'll suddenly have learned some stuff and will do a good job at a debate for once, but I don't hold out much hope.

It must a very "happy" world where repeated failures are "successes", it's a world the Trumpkins live in and they don't seem to be a happy bunch. Emulate better political fanboys.

[virtualobserver]

135. Right.....polling high with the public is a bad sign.

Bernie's signature issue has become the standard for the Democratic Party. Sounds like success to me.

[Ninsianna]

158. As you stated, when the small group of people who are compared

aren't active politicians, and their name recognition is low, 'polling high' is meaningless.

The Democratic Party has a longer history with talking about Single Payer than Bernie has been in politics. So, it sounds like someone is taking credit for something they didn't do and that others are giving him unearned credit yet again.

Sounds like something that an actual successful, persuasive politician with real accomplishments wouldn't need to do, or have done for him. So, it's a bad sign when desperate claims need to made from polls that one has already admitted pit a familiar name against unfamiliar names, and the worst politicians in history poll rather high in relation.

Why spin so hard, disagree with yourself and make claims that are utterly belied by any basic search of history of the Democratic Party. Might want to learn a bit about this party, there seems to be a great deal of ignorance about it and its platform.

[virtualobserver]

161. you do realize that in order to be popular, people have to know you.

Bernie isn't taking credit, he is pushing for change,

Almost no one was talking about single payer before Bernie ran for President, now everyone is. That is called leadership.

The only thing desperate is your attempt to denigrate Bernie.

[Ninsianna]

162. You do realize that this obsession with popularity is rather unhealthy right?

Nope, you're giving him credit for other people's work.

It is literally a ignorant lie to pretend that no one was talking about Single Payer before 2015. It's called literally ignoring the history of the party, Single Payer, and lying to boost a candidate that doesn't have a great history of success and is not even the most associated politician with Single Payer.

I'm not trying to denigrate Bernie, just countering the BS that is being pushed by people who apparently had no freaking clue what Single Payer was, or anything about the Democratic Party.

It's sad that popularity polls, that don't actually show much popularity, even against Trump, Pence and Bannon are being bandied about, and personal attacks and lies are used to deny the basic fact that the Democratic party with its long history of discussing Single Payer.

When the "defense" is preemptive and based on a rather fractured reading of words and intents, it's simple offensiveness. One wonders why simple facts are thought to "denigrate".

Same line of thinking with Trumpkins, odd similarity there.

[virtualobserver]

163. I give him credit for helping the Democratic Party to come to its senses

Ignorant lie, Oh please. People were dismissive of single payer before Bernie ran, especially here at DU.
Humans in Washington have seriously discussed single payer before 2015, but never without eye-rolling from the party elders.and donors.

I'll leave you with a quote.

It is amazing what you can accomplish if you do not care who gets the credit.

Harry S Truman

[Ninsianna]

165. The party did not require him to "come to their senses" about their own

platform.

Ignorant since you didn't know Single payer was a Democratic thing, didn't know that it was seriously discussed for decades. You think DU discussions from the 30's should be referenced, do you? Yup, it's a lie and it's based on willfully pretending facts and history don't exist.

I'm glad that you admit your error that humans in Washington were indeed doing the thing you explicitly said they were not in your previous post. They're still eye rolling right now, guess which elder, with 30 years in politics is also stating this bill has no chance of being enacted, get a fainting couch ready - Bernie!

What a nice quote, if only the credit wasn't of paramount importance here with the "Bernie is the alpha and omega on everything in the Democratic platform" crowd.

I'll leave you with a quote:

"Look, I have no illusions that under a Republican Senate and a very right-wing House and an extremely right-wing president of the United States, that suddenly we're going to see a Medicare-for-all, single-payer passed," he said recently, sitting in his Senate office. "You're not going to see it. That's obvious." - Bernie Sanders

When someone else said the same thing, people lost their minds and spewed a whole lot of hate. It's time for his acolytes to come to their senses, educate themselves and stop with the double standards and the constant ridiculousness.

[lunamagica]

132. He didn't win the only poll that mattered. In fact, he lost that poll by millions

[virtualobserver]

136. and yet it is Bernie who is influencing the direction of the Democratic Party...

and it is Bernie's name that first comes to mind for Kirsten Gillibrand when she is asked the question...."Who is the leader of the Democratic Party?"

[Demsrule86]

143. Bernie Sanders is not the leader nor ever will be of the Democratic Party. He is being

accommodated by Democrats who gave him the outreach job in order not to tick off his followers...which I think is a mistake. We can't go down the path advocated by these folks or we lose 18 and maybe 20.

[virtualobserver]

145. That is your opinion...I'm with Gillibrand

She said that he is A leader, not THE leader.

[George II]

155. So, I've demonstrated the mega flaws in your poll, so you go on to other unspecified polls.

How about another one?

All the polls I've seen have had similar limiting flaws - they are not all-inclusive and objective.

You have no insight into my "thoughts", best to not speculate on them.

[virtualobserver]

156. Multiple polls say that Bernie is the most popular and all the polls are flawed

I thought that was Trump's line.

[George II]

157. Well you've only given us one, and it was pointed out how that one was flawed. You countered....

....with a vague, non-specific comment about "multiple polls". Which ones are you talking about? The polls I've seen indeed are flawed, but not ALL polls (that's your characterization) are flawed.

Oh, thanks for the insult.

[virtualobserver]

159. not an insult....just pattern recognition

here is an article that has links to various polls


http://observer.com/2017/07/bernie-sanders-most-popular-politician/

[lapucelle]

166. You forgot to mention

that respondents who accrue enough points through participation are rewarded with Amazon gift cards, the minimum age to participate is 13, and that The Hill "commissioned" this exact poll to be conducted monthly for one year in an "exclusive use" agreement.

We should see this September's monthly popularity contest among a dozen named people reported in The Hill in a few weeks. I wonder if Mike Pence will still be the "second most popular active politician" in the country.

The poll seems similar to those which oil companies commission to "prove" that climate change is a hoax. It's a shame to see people so easily manipulated and fooled.

But I'm sure Mike Pence is happy with his standing at the moment.

[Demsrule86]

103. Try taking a poll if we lose the ACA.

[virtualobserver]

106. Bernie is the one who has been travelling the country attacking the Republicans for this

....he will be stronger than ever

[Demsrule86]

108. No he hasn't...he has been bringing up single payer everywhere... and putting out an ACA replacement

bill during our fight to save the ACA...was so foolish it makes my teeth ache...the GOP as I knew they would are now using it against our effort to save the ACA.

[virtualobserver]

111. He has been attacking Republicans for their many "repeal and replace" plans

The Republican attacks on single payer convince no-one that throwing millions off of their healthcare is the solution.

[Demsrule86]

120. Graham will get him to attack the ACA wait for it...he talks single payer and attacks the GOP bill

granted, but the choice is not between the ACA and single payer...I hope he is willing to defend the ACA...Graham is betting he won't.

[Liberty Belle]

131. harvard national poll in August - he is the most popular active politician in the U.S.:

http://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/329404-poll-bernie-sanders-countrys-most-popular-active-politician

[guillaumeb]

107. Well said. Pointing out the obvious is necessary sometimes.

Sanders is popular for a reason. And millions supported him for a reason, but the endless debate continues.

[Blue_true]

89. Great name.

Our next campaign ad should be "Republican Trumpcare or republican Murdercare, not any difference, but voters, chose the one you want. Or you can stay with the ACA and live"

[concreteblue]

3. THank you.

E.O.M.

[TheBlackAdder]

24. +1 The wars are the same cast of characters over and over. Very boring and counterproductive.

[workinclasszero]

4. There is no defending this republican abomination

This bill is a direct attack on the vast majority of Americans that will make ISIS green with envy if successfully passed!

Virtually the entire health care industry and patient advocacy groups hate this bill and realize the pain, suffering and death it's passing will bring.

God's speed, Bernie and Amy indeed!

[GaryCnf]

5. K&R for the support

BUT

IF Obamacare goes down next week,

IF the lives of many working class and middle-class Americans are hurt, if not lost as a result,

It isn't because Sanders and Klobuchar didn't crush Cassidy and Graham in a debate, or because the future stars of our party introduced a bill that shows Democrats stand FOR people's health care and Republicans stand AGAINST it,

It's because we had dozens of blue dogs and centrists run away from Obamacare (and Obama himself, to be honest) in 2010, get their asses beat by Tea Party Republicans, and hand control of congress over to the Republicans.

[George II]

7. Obama ran away from the ACA? Are you serious?

[GaryCnf]

10. This is probably a grammar problem on my part

So I am not going to come back with some snide comment about reading carefully

BUT what I meant is that the centrist "blue dogs" ran away from BOTH Obamacare and Obama himself.

Is that clearer?

[George II]

11. Yes, thanks.

[GaryCnf]

12. Welcome

[lunasun]

13. I read it the wrong way at first so thanks for that.

[marylandblue]

9. I agree

I am not hoping for end of ACA, but if Republicans do kill it, then the argument that Democrats and Republicans are the same will be dead, and in 2018, we will honestly be able to say we stand for something.

[CrispyQ]

17. But it's so much easier to bash Bernie & not self-reflect on mistakes the Party made.

The Bernie bashing is about to drive me from the party. Bernie, and only four other dems, voted against the massive MIC giveaway this week, but lets bash Bernie because he's fighting for health care for all.

Your post is spot on.

[Old Vet]

36. If Bernie sticks to fixing the ACA and how terrible it is rather then slinging his plan I say GOOD.

BUT if Bernie is showing up for this debate to hawk his new plan, There gonna bury Bernie.

[Sunlei]

56. and he is- heres a direct quote for you- "

Link to tweet

?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

[Sunlei]

59. and here is another quote from 9/18-first one is from 9/19. The man make daily pro ACA statements.

Link to tweet

Sanders is a friend, a good loyal friend of the D party.

[klook]

75. This should be a thread OP of its own.

I realize that if Bernie Sanders said he liked peanut butter there's a faction here that would twist that into something sinister (and ask what he's got against pimiento cheese). So reminding DU once again that Sanders works with Democrats and for the common people is never overkill.

[Sunlei]

78. start on, go to bernies twitter and he has a bunch of pro ACA statements. what will happen is

thread will be swamped by divisive to D party posts because driving that wedge is a high focus priority of republican party.

[onecaliberal]

80. Bernie HAS been touring the country pushing just that. Maybe folks should concentrate on defeating

what cons are "slinging"

[Sunlei]

63. now Crispy, remember Bernie himself said only a couple weeks ago-

almost an exact quote. "Do not leave the D party".

A lot of this 'Bernie bashing' is done/amplified by republicans because they know how divisive it is to the D party.

What I really wish is for Clintons & Obama to pick a couple of these staunch republicans and publicly in media interviews- ride their ass about health care issues in America. They know those Republicans, they've worked with them for years. Obama/Clinton- wish they would team-up with Sanders.

[Demsrule86]

144. Attack, attack and attack some more...the Democratic Party...the only vehicle for

progressive/liberal policy. Why that will attract voters and help us win the coming elections for sure ...just like in 16...oh wait, we lost.

[Raster]

26. Thank you! Welcome to DU! And YOU ARE CORRECT!!!

The Affordable Care Act should have been DEFENDED TO THE DEATH, which it was not. That is why we are in the thick of things now.

[HughBeaumont]

37. +1000

It's because we had dozens of blue dogs and centrists run away from Obamacare (and Obama himself, to be honest) in 2010, get their asses beat by Tea Party Republicans, and hand control of congress over to the Republicans.

These assholes are wholly responsible for weakening the PPACA. They put their handler's interests ahead of their constituents.

Not even supporting a public option is despicable and a disgrace.

[peggysue2]

42. Of course!

Sanders has no responsibility for bringing up an ill-timed single-payer bill because . . . October is a lifetime away. But President Obama, blue dogs and centrists are to blame for not fighting hard enough in 2010.

Shameless!

And btw--in case you haven't noticed--it's 2017 and the ACA has been gaining support in spite of the Republican Grind Machine. What Democrats did not need was Bernie Sanders handing the GOP a weapon, a flag to wave above the troops braying about the horrors of socialism.

Single-payer is going nowhere in the current political climate where Dems are the minority. If you do not understand that there's nothing else reasonable people can say.

But please, keep it up and the Republicans will run this Hail Mary pass right by the starry-eyed.

[GaryCnf]

58. You do understand

that it was the electoral defeat in 2010 of a huge percentage of the blue dogs (who, incidentally, owed their first terms to the coattails of Barack Obama) that handed Congress over to the Republicans, right? You do understand that those same blue dogs REFUSED to defend Obamacare or THEIR PRESIDENT in 2010, right? You do understand that absent a Republican majority in Congress from 2010 forward, Obamacare would have not only been safe, it wouldn't have been gutted, right?

THAT is recorded history. THAT is the real world.

You do understand that the claim that the introduction of MFA increased the chances of Obamacare's demise is an OPINION and nothing more, right? You do understand that MANY political experts disagree with that opinion, INCLUDING three young United States Senators who many consider this party's future leaders?

I only ask this because, when you come at people calling them "starry-eyed" or saying that reasonable people can't communicate with them, I believe you should have something more than just a difference of OPINION to back it up.

[George II]

6. I hope it doesn't deteriorate into an infomercial for "medicare for all", that is NOT the topic.

[oasis]

53. +1

[world wide wally]

8. Just the facts, mam

[Raven123]

14. I saw Bernie debate Ted Cruz

Frankly he wasn't very good. The debate was Bernie's platitudes versus Ted's random stats. They simply talked pass each other. Hopefully, Sanders and Klobuchar can make sure the viewers understand just how bad ithe Graham Cassidy bill is versus The ACA, and I present their plan well.

[thesquanderer]

15. I didn't see the Cruz debate, but I haven't been impressed with his debate skills.

While I like Sanders, I don't think he's a great debater. Though in all fairness, some of his weaker moments in the primary debates may also have been a result of his not wanting to hit Clinton too hard. I hope he is stronger for this one.

[mchill]

21. But is Bernie defending the ACA or Single Payer?

Or assaulting the Republican proposal? I hope he avoids Single Payer, or he might drive a lot of people to this horrible Republican plan for fear of "socialism." I think the Republican Plan is already in the losing column, so why nudge it the other way?

[leftstreet]

25. Sanders isn't promoting single payer

It's Medicare For All

[Demsrule86]

146. Whatever you call it and I don't give two fucks about that...it is not the ACA which is what must

be defended because whatever its name-single payer (which it is) or MFA...there is no chance of passage for years.

[onit2day]

41. Not one single HC involved group supports this plan

Every one of these groups hates it. Give people a break. Most have warmed up to Democratic socialism in this day and age. It's all around us and no one is asking for government to provide the means of delivery or production of health care...it's ins. Don't be afraid to stand for Medicare for all and the ACA. Democrats have a plan and will move ahead with it in the future. We stand for something and repubs don't.

[Expecting Rain]

68. I saw it too and reached the same conclusions.

I hope for all our sakes that debate is over a bill that lacks sufficient GOP support to pass in any case and that Sanders and Klobuchar destroy the arguments of their opponents in the debate.

But I have little confidence in Bernie Sanders to move beyond well-worn platitudes.

[CherokeeFiddle]

140. Bernie did great against Ted Cruz

[Chasstev365]

16. If I were Bernie or Amy, my question would be to ask both of them to explain the following :

Republicans always claim government health care for every American would be "socialism", but then claim their own government health care is just a "perk of the office?"

"How is this in any way fair to the American taxpayer?"

[nevergiveup]

18. I love both Amy and Bernie but

they would have been my last choices for this venue. Amy is too nice and Bernie is not a good debater. Graham and Cassidy will throw out lie after lie and will turn the debate toward single payer and Bernie will likely take the bait. It has the potential of being a disaster. Al Frankin and Sherrod Brown would have been my choices for this debate.

[SunSeeker]

31. Or Al Franken and Howard Dean, an actual doctor. nt

[wryter2000]

94. Howard Dean would have been my top choice

But then, I've had a crush on him since 2003.

[onit2day]

43. Take the bait? How can he defend his plan attacking

single payer which the majority of people support which makes it a win win all around.
. Anyone supporting this bill will not be changed one bit by this debate. All this debate will do is expose what is in the bill and what a liar Graham really is. Bringing up Medicare for all is like saying nobody likes ice cream and making it available to all is socialism. Who cares...we like ice cream period. Give people credit

[LiberalLovinLug]

47. +1000

[MontanaMama]

19. Thanks DSB.

Agree on all points. I have also avoided the Bernie Battle. I’ve got nothing to say on the matter to change anybody’s mind and I am weary of the back and forth on it here on DU. However, this is it. The moment of truth. A huge number of Americans have no real understanding of how health insurance works and if Bernie and Amy cannot make it crystal clear that Trumpcare is deadly, the ACA is doomed. This debate showdown scares the crap out of me. Success or failure of Bernie’s message may actually depend on quality moderation by CNN and that’s terrifying.

[standingtall]

20. Does not matter if Bernie and Klouchbar make them look stupid.

Their bill is already less popular than herpes. They therefore have nothing to lose in terms of public relations. Graham and Cassidy will lie through their teeth while presenting single payer as wedge issue among Democrats. The narrative they will try to push is look even Democrats don't like the current healthcare system.

[bettyellen]

33. They know Sanders will have a hard time giving the ACA strong and full throated support. He has to.

He has to pull the rug out from them and support it like he never has before and argue for expansion of Medicare/ Medicade and explain how the GOP has been sabotaging both.

[Demsrule86]

147. This is the plan...to make Sen. Sanders denounce the ACA and promote MFA.

[bettyellen]

154. The GOP is certainly going to try that. I worry that he can't be passionate about it...

And will give them ammo by agreeing it has issues.

[Demsrule86]

168. I worry too...and no doubt they will throw his words back at him.

[emulatorloo]

22. Hoping for the best as well. Thank you so much for posting.

[LexVegas]

23. We need Amy to come through here. She will have to carry the weakest debater in the group. nt

[Bucky]

27. Yeah, all this bickering between Hillary and Bernie loyalists is pretty depressing.

I teach teenagers. I see them getting into these idiot feuds and pointless disputes about what happened last week all the time. I used to think, "Meh, they'll grow up and get over it eventually."

I'm starting to wonder if growing up is a hopelessly retro concept.

[LeftInTX]

28. Unfortunately, this is a CNN fabricated debate - it's about ratings.

They purposely are putting pols on the opposite end of the spectrum.
It is good for ratings....


We need to defeat Graham-Cassidy by September 30th.
I hope Bernie and Amy focus on defeating Graham-Cassidy.


I'm just afraid, it is going to be set up to be a polarizing event.....

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

32. The vote will not turn on this debate.

It will not be the fault of Bernie and/or Amy if the bill passes. I'm sure they'll do the best they can but don't hold them responsible for the outcome. We all know the GOP doesn't give a rat's ass about making health care available to everyone; what they care about is the fact that their big donors like the Kochs who want a tax cut have threatened to stop the donation gravy train if they don't kill the ACA. Even if Cassidy and Graham were to be "crushed" on debating points, the GOPers won't care. Their minds will not be changed, even by angry constituents, as long as the Kochs are holding the money bags. Even bringing Clarence Darrow and Abe Lincoln back from the dead to take the Dem side wouldn't make any difference.

[Demsrule86]

148. I will hold every person involved in putting out a single payer/MFA bill at this time, that can't be

passed for years responsible,if we lose the ACA. This was the wrong time, and while the Gop shoulders most of the blame...those who promoted essentially an ACA replacement bill when we are trying to save it are also partly responsible. Sen. Sanders needs to focus on the ACA during the debate and utter not one word about single payer ...he should say 'we are here to discuss the ACA and murdercare" not MFA...as this is a trap for him and for us...I hope he does that.

[Not Ruth]

35. I believe that this will be Bernie's finest hour, so do those who want him to fail

[Old Vet]

39. I dont believe anyone wants Bernie to fail, Just represent fixing the ACA like a democratic would...

If Bernie wants to impress me, I hope he comes prepared to tear these two republican assholes apart with details on how fucked there program is........

[onit2day]

44. He's already done that in his town halll

[Old Vet]

48. This debate is gonna be prime time, The big time. Theres alot riding on how he represents......

[Expecting Rain]

69. I doubt you'd find less of a fan of Bernie Sanders than I am...

but I hope he scores a big win in this debate. We can't afford a fail.

[Ninsianna]

72. I don't believe anyone wants Bernie to fail here, it's just that we've seen him

attempt debate and attempt to answer questions, and frankly, this is not his skill set. The evidence, his past performance and his 3 decades in politics makes that abundantly clear.

I hope it is his finest hour, I hope he's learned something and that he delivers a good performance for once, but I've nothing to base a belief upon.

I just hope he doesn't shout over Sen. Klobuchar or go off on tangents.

[LiberalLovinLug]

45. Courage!

[dae]

46. Thank you for the OP DSB. I've avoided them as well;

but you have the the Sanders critics already creeping into the thread.
I think Sanders and Klobacher will do well. Cassidy has been hammered all week by Kimmel and is in fact a liar, not a debater.
Graham concerns me a little because he is viewed as a liberal by many Trumpers. Personally, I feel the only reason Graham is on the bill is to get McCain's vote.

[Old Vet]

49. Its perfectly alright not to like Sanders, Just like Clinton. But at some point...........

People have to move on, Jesus.

[dae]

54. Not sure what prompted your response. I get the Clinton/Sanders supporters feud,

I just wish it would end or as you stated "People have to move on."
However, as long as Sen. Sanders continues to voice my concerns I will support him as I see fit. Defending him on DU is neither fruitful or productive.

[left-of-center2012]

55. "... the Bernie Wars?"

There is no 'war'.

It's one sided daily attacks on Bernie.

[NurseJackie]

64. No it's not.

[left-of-center2012]

65. Yes, it is

"No it's not."

"Yes, it is"

etc

[NurseJackie]

66. There's no evidence to support your claim. The primary is over so there are no "one-sided" attacks

... on anyone. (Unless your definition of a "one-sided" attack is what most reasonable people call fair and valid criticism.)

[left-of-center2012]

167. "fair and valid criticism"

[NurseJackie]

169. "one-sided"

[Eliot Rosewater]

160. This is Democratic Underground

We dont need to talk about individuals here, the party is what matters.

[Jim Lane]

74. The sad truth is that this debate won't matter much in the short term.

For the long term, it's good to have a debate about a serious public issue.

Whether the Graham/Cassidy bill passes next week, however, won't depend on what millions of CNN viewers think. As I understand the current whip count, McCain and Paul (along with all the Democrats and independents) are definite Nay votes. Collins and Murkowski, who voted against the last one, are the prime hopes for getting the 51st vote that will kill the thing. Secondarily, Capito and Portman represent states that would suffer under the bill. One of them might flip.

So at this point there are four people in the whole country whose opinion really matters. My guess is that none of them will watch the debate. They've already heard everything that any of the four debaters will say. The debate might have some effect by moving the needle a little bit on their constituent mail, but that's it.

[klook]

82. Sane perspective. Thanks. (nt)

[wryter2000]

95. While what you say is true

I imagine that a bad performance by our folks could serve as cover for one of those four people to do the wrong thing.

[Demsrule86]

149. I don't agree. This debate is another distraction, and a way for the GOP to

attack us...if we lose the ACA...because some Republicans were convinced by Graham that they have to stop "Bernie's socialized healthcare plan" and that voting for murdercare is their last chance to do so, then it will be the fault of those who introduced MFA when there was no chance of passage for years and provided the GOP with the ammunition that took down the ACA...hard won and impossible to replace for years.

[Jim Lane]

150. I have a question about the "distraction" problem that so concerns you.

Aren't there now, and won't there always be, many things going on? Defending the ACA is important, but that doesn't mean that 535 members of Congress will spend the next few days thinking about nothing else.

If we speak of distractions: There are incessant threads and posts on DU blasting Bernie for pushing for single payer. Do all those attacks on him constitute distractions from defending the ACA?

You have made clear your view about this "distraction" business by repeating it with incredible persistence. I have elsewhere asked for the name of the Senator who was involved. This is a Senator who had been planning to vote to save the ACA, even though Bernie had for years been advocating single payer, even though many organizations such as PNHP had for years been advocating single payer, even though Conyers's single-payer bill in the House was co-sponsored by a majority of the Democratic caucus. This Senator knew that there was a pro-single-payer faction in American politics but was going to vote against ACA repeal anyway. Then, on a particular day deemed inauspicious by some pseudonymous online commentators, a companion bill to Conyers's (going in the same general direction but with some differences in detail) was introduced in the Senate. This event caused this hypothetical unnamed Senator to switch over to voting in favor of repealing the ACA.

In the barrage of posts blasting Bernie, the name of that hypothetical Senator has never been stated. Still less, of course, has there been any evidence that anyone is swayed by such ephemera in deciding how to vote on a major bill.

I personally believe that this hypothetical Senator does not exist. I personally believe that this whole thesis, no matter how tirelessly repeated, is bullshit.

From one point of view, your writing your post, and my writing this response, are both wastes of time. There are DUers on both sides of this "issue" (scare quotes because I think it's entirely concocted rather than real). At this point, I doubt that anyone is open to further persuasion.

Looking ahead: If Graham-Cassidy passes, DU will be awash in posts blaming Bernie. If Graham-Cassidy is defeated, the general exultation on DU will be marred by a few diehards' posts saying "We won this one despite Bernie's sabotage." And thereafter, the bash-Bernie beat will go on.

[PatrickforO]

87. They are going to do fine in the debate.

I don't know about Klobuchar but Sanders is an excellent debater.

[wryter2000]

93. Amen to that

I hope they spend all their time outlining what the current bill would do and avoid any issue of ACA versus single-payer. Lord knows, they have enough material just in attacking this bill.

[CherokeeFiddle]

139. If anybody is going to fight about health care on our side

I want Bernie who has been doing it for decades!

GET 'EM BERNIE!

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

151. Bernie and Amy WILL crush... there's a reason single-payer healthcare polls so well.

[RKP5637]

152. Bernie is the only one that makes sense to me. n/t

[GaryCnf]

153. Your positive energy paid off

Clearly the introduction of MFA in the Senate by Sens. Sanders, Harris, Booker, Gillebrand, and 13 others on the eve of the ACA repeal vote showed vulnerable on the fence Republicans that we Democrats are ready to fight for healthcare for all not just now but in the next election and they weren't ready to run on the healthcare for some platform.

I thank these brave Senators, and the stalwart support of Representative Conyers and his allies for saving the ACA. As for the naysayers . . .

Note: this post is only partially tongue in cheek, I do happen to believe that the introduction of MFA helped at least a little bit to fight back the GOP, but I mostly wanted to make the point that those folks who tried to saddle Bernie Sanders with what they believed was going to be the demise of the ACA instead of the Congressional electoral failure of incrementalist politics in 2010 were wrong from the start.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

170. .

You've haven't done what?!?!?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

171. Not since the primaries. I regret the time I wasted that I can never get back.

These intramural battles put me to sleep.

[gulliver]

172. Unfortunately, the only thing they can now do is blow it.

The sale is already made and Graham/Cassidy is done for as of today (9/23/2017). Since McCain has said he is a "no," that will give plenty of cover for others to do so. It probably would not even be scheduled for a vote by McConnell. Unfortunately, it now has another chance at life thanks to the debate.