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Tue Sep 12, 2017, 09:52 AM

"I'm of the general belief that as racist as this country can be, its even MORE sexist."

Last edited Tue Sep 12, 2017, 10:51 AM - Edit history (1)

TPM Reader CM refocuses us on gender …

I agree really strongly with your general take on Trump being an expression of white backlash, but I also wanted to add that I think you’re missing a really important component: GENDER.


A lot of people are talking about the fact that Trump is racist, but hardly anyone is discussing the role his sexism played in the campaign and how much of a factor it still is in our society. And also on the left. Let’s not forget that Bernie’s attacks on “identity politics” have actually very little to do with racism. When Bernie talks about identity politics, he’s talking about WOMEN who vote for WOMEN because they’re WOMEN. I actually can’t think of a single instance when a discussion of race has caused him to slam identity politics. It has always been the result of a discussion of women in politics.

As for Trump, some of his most egregious moments in the campaign were his moments of outright misogyny and yet hardly anyone cares. Obviously, the “Grab ’em by the p__y” moment comes to mind, but he also trotted out all of Bill Clinton’s accusers before one of the debates. That wasn’t about race, it was a gendered attack. The attacks on Hillary’s honesty and nastiness played right into a very typical (yet generally accepted) brand of American sexism that is so entrenched in our culture, we hardly even notice it. Trump’s fundamental nature is being alpha to the point of near absurdity. And the alpha ALWAYS WINS. Most of these people who voted for Trump after voting for Obama were the same people who voted for Bush TWICE. Why? Because Bush was the alpha against Gore and Kerry. Obama was the alpha against McCain and Romney. And Trump was the Alpha compared to Hillary because our society doesn’t allow women to be alpha’s, no matter how experienced, or in command they are.

I’m of the general belief that as racist as this country can be, it’s even MORE sexist. Think about it. Our country is half female, and yet, only 20 percent of our congressional delegation is female. That level of female representation is viewed in other countries as a cause for serious concern, but here in America, we take as business as usual.

I think the thing I keep coming back to is this: if Obama ran for a third term, do you think he would’ve won? I think he probably would have and most statistical evidence indicates that would probably be the case. That says it all right there. At the end of the day, this country has some serious issues with women.


I would add that these two posts were really responding to the Coates’ essay, which is about race. That’s why I focused so squarely on race. But gender was central to this election, not simply because the Democratic candidate was a woman but because in a way that parallels the racial dynamics, feminism and women’s equality was a key target of the backlash.


http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/response-4

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Reply "I'm of the general belief that as racist as this country can be, its even MORE sexist." (Original post)
kpete Sep 12 OP
NurseJackie Sep 12 #1
AllTooEasy Sep 12 #39
DLevine Sep 12 #41
TheFrenchRazor Sep 12 #42
GaryCnf Sep 12 #43
redgreenandblue Sep 12 #2
nycbos Sep 12 #13
LanternWaste Sep 12 #14
Major Nikon Sep 12 #44
MoonRiver Sep 12 #3
GusFring Sep 12 #4
crazycatlady Sep 12 #5
CrispyQ Sep 12 #6
loyalsister Sep 12 #25
CousinIT Sep 12 #7
guillaumeb Sep 12 #8
treestar Sep 12 #9
PragmaticLiberal Sep 12 #10
niyad Sep 12 #17
PragmaticLiberal Sep 12 #30
TBA Sep 12 #11
Orsino Sep 12 #12
bettyellen Sep 12 #27
niyad Sep 12 #15
Nitram Sep 12 #16
LisaM Sep 12 #28
JoeStuckInOH Sep 12 #34
Nitram Sep 12 #37
Nitram Sep 12 #38
mnhtnbb Sep 12 #18
efhmc Sep 12 #19
CrispyQ Sep 12 #31
Gothmog Sep 12 #20
loyalsister Sep 12 #21
FLPanhandle Sep 12 #22
Hekate Sep 12 #23
mountain grammy Sep 12 #26
mountain grammy Sep 12 #24
wryter2000 Sep 12 #29
IronLionZion Sep 12 #32
IronLionZion Sep 12 #33
sagesnow Sep 12 #35
Doreen Sep 12 #36
gollygee Sep 12 #40
Skittles Sep 13 #45

Response to kpete (Original post)

Tue Sep 12, 2017, 09:56 AM

1. Absolutely true. (Thanks for posting this.)

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Response to NurseJackie (Reply #1)

Tue Sep 12, 2017, 04:03 PM

39. Let me guess, a White woman wrote this BULLSHIT post


Sexism is a major problem, both nationally and globally. That's a fact.

It irritates me that mostly White Women think that sexism is and has been the ultimate evil in this country. Really?!

When is the last time a White Woman was pulled over for Not-Signalling-While-Female and the cop drew his gun? https://www.vibe.com/2017/09/cop-draws-gun-on-black-man-turn-signal-video/

Or Running-While-Female? http://www.theroot.com/running-while-black-melanin-and-movement-does-not-a-t-1795944863

Do you think that a White Female would have been shot while running towards police to seek help after a car crash? https://news.vice.com/article/dashcam-video-of-cop-killing-black-man-seeking-help-after-car-crash-shown-at-trial

Or just shot by a cop in her car for no fucking reason?


How man people were hung from trees just for being a White Female? Do they match these stats: http://atlantablackstar.com/2015/02/24/10-american-states-with-the-most-lynchings-of-black-people-from-1882-1968/

When has a man been shot by a chauvinist bigot because the victim was mistaken for a woman?
http://www.cnn.com/2016/09/15/us/sikh-hate-crime-victims/index.html

When did the great genocide of women happen, like it happened to Native Americans?

When did the European female slave trade happen?

When were White Women told to give up their seat on a bus ride to a racial minority man?

Why aren't White Men gentrifying White Women in our inner cities?

Yes Obama won and Hillary lost (or did she?), but she didn't die or get pushed out her home to a reservation. Not to mention that the majority of White Female voters went for Trump. WTF?!

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/arts-and-entertainment/wp/2017/04/01/tiny-fey-tells-college-educated-white-women-who-voted-for-trump-you-cant-look-away/?utm_term=.e6f8293edc3b

https://theundefeated.com/features/black-women-say-white-feminists-have-a-trump-problem/

Sexism over Racism??? Homophobia, definitely. A heterosexual Black man like myself can't ignore that. America hasn't been fair to women in any realm of our society, but it's been down right evil to minorities. A White Women is under-respected, underappreciated, underpaid, and underrepresented. A Black Woman? Just another n-word that should be exterminated in the eyes of AmeriKKKa.

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Response to AllTooEasy (Reply #39)

Tue Sep 12, 2017, 05:12 PM

41. The misogyny in this country is every bit as evil as the racism and homophobia.

It shouldn't be a contest. They're all evil.

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Response to AllTooEasy (Reply #39)

Tue Sep 12, 2017, 05:13 PM

42. you need to seriously educate yourself; women are and have been sold, raped, murdered,

assaulted, exploited, and oppressed BECAUSE THEY ARE WOMEN, in every culture on the face of the earth, since the beginning of time. african american slavery and discrimination, as wrong as it was/is, is really a drop in the bucket compared to the WORLDWIDE and HISTORY-WIDE oppression of females. you do know that the history of the human race is a bit longer than the last few hundred years, don't you? if not, i suggest that you open your eyes and broaden your perspective a bit. i might add also that white women have done far more to support the equal rights of minorities than black men have EVER done for them. white women have been at the front of every (racial) civil rights movement in this country, starting with abolition; on the other hand, when have you ever seen black men taking any significant role in the women's rights movement? oh yeah, never.

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Response to AllTooEasy (Reply #39)

Tue Sep 12, 2017, 07:25 PM

43. Thank you

Exactly.

Btw, it wasn't you who made it a "contest," it was the OP.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Tue Sep 12, 2017, 10:01 AM

2. So after a period of "Bernie is racist" we are back to "Bernie is sexist"...

I guess it is cyclical, like the seasons.

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Response to redgreenandblue (Reply #2)

Tue Sep 12, 2017, 11:46 AM

13. I would say Bernie is neither.

But he did benefit from both.

I remember Bernie or busters heckling John Lewis. People on this site who were Bernie supporters said African Americans have "Stockholm Syndrome" when Hillary won the black vote in HUGE numbers.

No one complained about his "shouting." No one said he was "shrill"


If Hillary was Harry and Bernie was Bernice he wouldn't have won a single state.

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Response to redgreenandblue (Reply #2)

Tue Sep 12, 2017, 12:20 PM

14. Criticism of sacred cows is often perceived as an attack.

Criticism, observation, or analysis of sacred cows, if not lauded with high praise and calls for revolution, is often perceived as an attack.

That I guess, is not cyclical-- but most consistent, like a hot wind blowing tumbleweeds across a dusty Texas plain.

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Response to LanternWaste (Reply #14)

Tue Sep 12, 2017, 07:40 PM

44. That also applies to the OP

The OP pretends everything about Obama relates to race and everything about HRC relates to gender. That's very far afield from reality.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Tue Sep 12, 2017, 10:02 AM

3. I agree.

Both are unacceptable, and we should be waaaay beyond both racism and sexism by now!

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Tue Sep 12, 2017, 10:05 AM

4. 1 problem is how women look at other women. Hilary lost the white women vote. How in the hell?

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Tue Sep 12, 2017, 10:10 AM

5. Absolutely true

And while the conventional wisdom is that racism is concentrated among the older generations (although Charlottesville will tell you otherwise), I can't say the same for sexism. There are many millennial men who are very sexist. And Gen Z doesn't seem too far off.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Tue Sep 12, 2017, 10:16 AM

6. Black men got the vote before women.

The first division of the species is gender. When someone has a baby, the first thing you ask is if it's a boy or girl. The patriarchy is ancient. It will take a long time & a ton of education to dismantle it & we're not heading in the right direction, as a society.

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Response to CrispyQ (Reply #6)

Tue Sep 12, 2017, 12:53 PM

25. And black women were not welcome in the suffrage movement

Black women were ignored during the second wave woman's movement. White women made it all about equal opportunity in employment. To many black women liberation meant raising their own children rather than those from white privileged families. It turns out that the focus on employment equality was oppressive to enough black women that they did not feel as much a part of it.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Tue Sep 12, 2017, 10:41 AM

7. Agree. I've tried to bring this up - it usually sinks.

And gets buried. America is at LEAST as sexist as it is racist. But no one talks about the sexism - I think the MRAs harass and threaten and terrorize anyone who does so much, no one wants to go there. It's as bad or worse than the terrorizing of PoC here.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Tue Sep 12, 2017, 10:45 AM

8. So as brutally racist as the country is, it is even more brutally sexist?

Recommended.

This
And Trump was the Alpha compared to Hillary because our society doesn’t allow women to be alpha’s, no matter how experienced, or in command they are.

says all that needs to be said.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Tue Sep 12, 2017, 10:52 AM

9. Very true. Even the pussy grabbing comment

did not sink him. I bet it would have against a male opponent.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Tue Sep 12, 2017, 11:01 AM

10. I'm not sure I agree with this.

Also not sure I disagree either.

I mean for all we know Obama might just be the unique person who transcends race to a certain extent.

I'm not sure another african american would have duplicated his electoral success.


Also not sure Hillary lost primarily because of her gender.

It could just been the the fact that she's perceived (unfortunately) as untrustworthy etc.

Perhaps another woman would have been more successful.

Now with that being said, you'll get no argument from me that sexism is a huge problem in our society.


The only thing I am sure of is we have an asshole in the Oval Office.

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Response to PragmaticLiberal (Reply #10)

Tue Sep 12, 2017, 12:31 PM

17. how much of the thirty years of almost unimaginably hateful attacks on her come from the

fact that she is an incredibly competent, intelligent, powerful woman?

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Response to niyad (Reply #17)

Tue Sep 12, 2017, 01:26 PM

30. Can't say what the percentage is but I'll just say "Alot".

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Tue Sep 12, 2017, 11:02 AM

11. Are U.S. Millennial Men Just as Sexist as Their Dads?

Do Millennials really believe there are no inherently male or female roles in society? Do Millennial men really “see women as equals”? Unfortunately, the best information we have indicates the answer to both questions is no.

https://hbr.org/2016/06/are-u-s-millennial-men-just-as-sexist-as-their-dads?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=harvardbiz

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Tue Sep 12, 2017, 11:38 AM

12. Apples and oranges.

I don't think the numbers cited here tell the whole story, and suspect that apples and oranges can't be compared meaningfully, but...it could be.

America is so far gone down both paths that we may never get to study either sexism or racism in isolation. Anyone telling you to disregard either is selling something awful.

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Response to Orsino (Reply #12)

Tue Sep 12, 2017, 01:01 PM

27. I think that most often they are so deeply intertwined that it makes separating them out impossible-

The mindset of either is the same- that other people are not as worthy due to biology. The world has told them this since the day they were born- they're more capable. And it serves them to prop up those beliefs at all times. I see that's it's often as subconscious as it is pervasive.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Tue Sep 12, 2017, 12:29 PM

15. ABSOLUTELY TRUE--thanks for posting!!

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Tue Sep 12, 2017, 12:30 PM

16. My first reaction is that we don't want to get in a pissing contest over this subject.

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Response to Nitram (Reply #16)

Tue Sep 12, 2017, 01:06 PM

28. A pissing contest? LOL.

Women don't get into pissing contests. Just saying (I don't think you meant the remark to be sexist, but I immediately got a visual of people in a pissing contest, and it didn't involve any women!)

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Response to LisaM (Reply #28)

Tue Sep 12, 2017, 02:37 PM

34. You don't think women can get involved in pissing contests?

... (I don't think you meant the remark to be sexist, but I immediately got a visual of people in a pissing contest, and it didn't involve any women!)


Sure they can...

If my hypothetical visions of pissing contests include both men and women, does that my imagination more equal opportunity?

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Response to JoeStuckInOH (Reply #34)

Tue Sep 12, 2017, 03:16 PM

37. I was once involved in a unisex pissing contest. Or perhaps "demonstration" would be

a better term. We lined up at the rail on the back porch of a country house after drinking a lot of beer. It was the early hours of the morning. Women can actually get some distance with the right angle. There was a lot of laughter involved.

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Response to LisaM (Reply #28)

Tue Sep 12, 2017, 03:20 PM

38. I was hoping you'd be amused. But I am serious aobut wanting to avoid a fruitless argument about

who has been discriminated against more. Can't we just acknowledge that they are both terrible, and just get on with improving things?

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Tue Sep 12, 2017, 12:34 PM

18. The 2016 election was all about misogyny and racism.

And it didn't help that Republicans do everything possible to suppress Democratic votes or that the Trump campaign
was willing to collude with a foreign power--and not just any foreign power, but Russia!--to win.

The soul of this country is in deep, deep trouble.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Tue Sep 12, 2017, 12:35 PM

19. What an amazing woman she was. Ran for president too.

"I've always met more discrimination being a woman than being Black...men are men."
Shirley Chisholm http://www.azquotes.com/author/2825-Shirley_Chisholm

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Response to efhmc (Reply #19)

Tue Sep 12, 2017, 01:38 PM

31. Wonderful page.

Thanks!

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Tue Sep 12, 2017, 12:37 PM

20. K&R

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Tue Sep 12, 2017, 12:39 PM

21. Oppression olympics are useless to the goal of eliminating it on all counts

None is more or less because oppression of identities affects a wide range of people differently. We can attend to more than one thought without ranking them.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Tue Sep 12, 2017, 12:40 PM

22. Absolutely true.

There are lots of discussions, and rightly so, on the Jim Crow era laws that targeted the rights of black people.

Is there a name for the set of restrictive laws that did the same for women?

Pregnancy being a fireable offense?
Job security hinging on a woman's weight?
Couldn't open a bank account or establish a line of credit unless a woman had a male to cosign?
Segregated school too. A woman who had the grades to attend some schools, but gender kept them out.

If a bunch of foreign White Supremacists and their families wanted to immigrate here, there would be a chorus of dissent on DU. A bunch of misogynistic Islamic immigrants? Welcome, and we won't say a word about your treatment of women. Keep them covered up and we will pretend it's just your culture.

Women's rights are the least talked about and supported of any group.




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Response to kpete (Original post)

Tue Sep 12, 2017, 12:50 PM

23. 'Fraid so.

Sorry I can't source the following testimony, which I read several years back, but it was an interview with a very successful African American woman. She was asked about race as an obstacle to her success, and she said that GENDER was a far bigger obstacle than race, in her experience.

Ouch.

On Edit: Looking at an earlier post, I see Shirley Chisholm said it (too).

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Response to Hekate (Reply #23)

Tue Sep 12, 2017, 12:58 PM

26. I have heard this from black women many times..

yep, trump speaks misogyny, his language of choice.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Tue Sep 12, 2017, 12:52 PM

24. My son, union man and all around great person

said this. He's worked in mostly male environments most of his life and he swears this is true.. He said, so many of the white men he works and interacts with could swallow their racism to vote for a black man, but when it came to voting for a woman, no way. Most won't admit it, of course, but it's there, and, I believe, many white women too.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Tue Sep 12, 2017, 01:21 PM

29. I don't think "one is worse than the other" arguments are helpful

I applaud this person for bringing up the obvious sexism in our society. However, saying one is worse than the other only gets us into evaluating (or arguing) about which is the most awful. First of all, you're comparing apples and oranges in many respects. Secondly, we all need to be on the same page about both evils.

As a white woman, I would never want to debate a black man about which one of us is treated more unjustly.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Tue Sep 12, 2017, 02:27 PM

32. Hillary is way more alpha than Trump

Trump's definitely an omega: "As opposed to alpha males and beta males, omega males are the lowest of the low on the guy food chain; they're the type of men who shirk responsibility, refuse to grow up and generally avoid participating in the real world."
https://www.askmen.com/dating/curtsmith_300/384_5-signs-you-are-an-omega-male.html

Why did white women vote for the white power candidate and throw an obviously better white woman under the bus? Those ladies clearly valued their white privileges and powers more than feminism or any repulsion towards the pussy grabber who walks into teen girls' dressing rooms.

I don't see any value in comparing sexism to racism. All isms matter. (pun intended) Minority women get it twice apparently. Male privilege doesn't stop bullets or racial discrimination where dark skin is a sign of dangerous criminality.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Tue Sep 12, 2017, 02:45 PM

35. Definitely agree.

Thanks for posting.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Tue Sep 12, 2017, 02:52 PM

36. From what I have seen when it comes to racism and

rights being taken away from LGBTQ I see the rights of women are going to be taken away more than any. The big problem is that it is not addressed much.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Tue Sep 12, 2017, 04:49 PM

40. Pointless comparison

and i think the problems are related anyway. In both cases, it's less about people of color and women being lower, and it's more about white men being at the top. I think we look at these problems in a backward way. It's about a racial caste system where white people are on top, and a societal gender bias where men are on top, and most of all a society structured to benefit white men.

We white women who are married to white men benefit from that to a large extent and so in that way it might be harder for people of color than white women married to white men. I think that's why more white women support how things are than people of color. Otherwise, it's a pointless comparison IMO.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Wed Sep 13, 2017, 09:27 AM

45. sexism is far more pervasive than racism

there has never been a female president and we are OVER HALF THE POPULATION

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