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Mon Sep 11, 2017, 09:31 AM

Many Trump voters are NOT a lost cause...

... I live in a very red state. I know many personally. Sure. There are a lot of dicks who support him. He's a dick, so dicks are drawn to him. And dicks tend to be loud and do dickish things that draw attention to their dickishness. I don't personally know a lot of these people, but I see them and have some interaction with them. They are there, no doubt.

But in addition to the dicks, there are a lot of people who were taken in by the dick's carnival show. They were swept up by the crazy, the anti-Clinton drum beat, and the Russian social media strategy. These people are not dicks. And the more he and his administration act like dicks, the more distance they put between themselves and the circus. But they're quiet about it. They don't talk politics around the water cooler.

We have to STOP shitting on republican voters. Shit on Trump. Shit on his administration. Shit on his policies. All fair game. But there is ZERO political capital to be gained from shitting on republican voters generally and in a personal way. If they are true supporters, they'll wear your criticism as a badge of honor anyway. If they are having second thoughts (as I know many are), your dickishness will simply drive them more securely into the arms of the republicans in 2020. I'd rather they were offered an alternative. Or at least encouraged to stay home.

Treating them like shit (and I've done it some myself) is strategically stupid. My dad use to tell me to try not to be stupid. If he were still here, I think he'd remind me of that.









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Reply Many Trump voters are NOT a lost cause... (Original post)
Whiskeytide Sep 2017 OP
dalton99a Sep 2017 #1
Whiskeytide Sep 2017 #13
Orsino Sep 2017 #36
Whiskeytide Sep 2017 #40
Proud Liberal Dem Sep 2017 #157
Orsino Sep 2017 #160
Johonny Sep 2017 #45
dalton99a Sep 2017 #48
VOX Sep 2017 #73
InAbLuEsTaTe Sep 2017 #151
JustAnotherGen Sep 2017 #162
no_hypocrisy Sep 2017 #71
Expecting Rain Sep 2017 #100
MarvinGardens Sep 2017 #126
NewJeffCT Sep 2017 #159
Ninga Sep 2017 #2
atreides1 Sep 2017 #3
Whiskeytide Sep 2017 #9
Calista241 Sep 2017 #4
samnsara Sep 2017 #5
Me. Sep 2017 #6
brer cat Sep 2017 #77
Me. Sep 2017 #86
Achilleaze Sep 2017 #7
Whiskeytide Sep 2017 #15
BainsBane Sep 2017 #8
Whiskeytide Sep 2017 #11
BainsBane Sep 2017 #20
Whiskeytide Sep 2017 #29
BainsBane Sep 2017 #98
True_Blue Sep 2017 #133
JCanete Sep 2017 #41
clu Sep 2017 #44
BainsBane Sep 2017 #60
JHan Sep 2017 #96
NurseJackie Sep 2017 #97
True_Blue Sep 2017 #129
WinkyDink Sep 2017 #10
MFM008 Sep 2017 #14
sofa king Sep 2017 #12
Whiskeytide Sep 2017 #17
sofa king Sep 2017 #24
Whiskeytide Sep 2017 #38
mercuryblues Sep 2017 #69
WinkyDink Sep 2017 #106
Whiskeytide Sep 2017 #109
WinkyDink Sep 2017 #112
Whiskeytide Sep 2017 #119
xajj4791 Sep 2017 #140
WinkyDink Sep 2017 #141
Whiskeytide Sep 2017 #150
WinkyDink Sep 2017 #105
FLPanhandle Sep 2017 #16
Whiskeytide Sep 2017 #21
FLPanhandle Sep 2017 #25
LanternWaste Sep 2017 #54
BainsBane Sep 2017 #27
Whiskeytide Sep 2017 #32
BainsBane Sep 2017 #67
KitSileya Sep 2017 #70
brer cat Sep 2017 #79
xajj4791 Sep 2017 #144
bettyellen Sep 2017 #135
xajj4791 Sep 2017 #142
BainsBane Sep 2017 #23
MLAA Sep 2017 #26
FLPanhandle Sep 2017 #30
BainsBane Sep 2017 #58
lunasun Sep 2017 #158
Whiskeytide Sep 2017 #35
BainsBane Sep 2017 #62
xajj4791 Sep 2017 #145
WinkyDink Sep 2017 #107
Locrian Sep 2017 #18
Whiskeytide Sep 2017 #22
FLPanhandle Sep 2017 #52
LexVegas Sep 2017 #19
maveric Sep 2017 #53
WinkyDink Sep 2017 #108
Caliman73 Sep 2017 #28
Girard442 Sep 2017 #31
Whiskeytide Sep 2017 #37
clu Sep 2017 #46
Girard442 Sep 2017 #51
hatrack Sep 2017 #99
guillaumeb Sep 2017 #33
WinkyDink Sep 2017 #110
guillaumeb Sep 2017 #117
WinkyDink Sep 2017 #138
MLAA Sep 2017 #34
Whiskeytide Sep 2017 #49
renate Sep 2017 #39
Whiskeytide Sep 2017 #43
clu Sep 2017 #50
WinkyDink Sep 2017 #139
ck4829 Sep 2017 #42
dalton99a Sep 2017 #47
JHan Sep 2017 #55
LanternWaste Sep 2017 #56
tonedevil Sep 2017 #57
Doreen Sep 2017 #59
Whiskeytide Sep 2017 #66
Doreen Sep 2017 #68
sprinkleeninow Sep 2017 #131
xajj4791 Sep 2017 #147
RhodeIslandOne Sep 2017 #61
jcmaine72 Sep 2017 #63
Stellar Sep 2017 #64
Afromania Sep 2017 #65
Progressive dog Sep 2017 #72
KitSileya Sep 2017 #74
Whiskeytide Sep 2017 #87
WinkyDink Sep 2017 #113
VOX Sep 2017 #75
Cary Sep 2017 #76
HughBeaumont Sep 2017 #78
procon Sep 2017 #80
andym Sep 2017 #81
mahina Sep 2017 #82
WinkyDink Sep 2017 #114
mahina Sep 2017 #136
maxrandb Sep 2017 #83
clu Sep 2017 #85
nini Sep 2017 #84
Whiskeytide Sep 2017 #88
xajj4791 Sep 2017 #148
Cuthbert Allgood Sep 2017 #89
Whiskeytide Sep 2017 #124
NurseJackie Sep 2017 #90
Paladin Sep 2017 #91
LineLineReply .
jcmaine72 Sep 2017 #101
WinkyDink Sep 2017 #115
rock Sep 2017 #92
johnp3907 Sep 2017 #93
Bettie Sep 2017 #94
moondust Sep 2017 #95
elleng Sep 2017 #102
LAS14 Sep 2017 #103
LAS14 Sep 2017 #104
onecaliberal Sep 2017 #111
Whiskeytide Sep 2017 #123
onecaliberal Sep 2017 #127
sprinkleeninow Sep 2017 #132
Nevernose Sep 2017 #116
Whiskeytide Sep 2017 #120
ThoughtCriminal Sep 2017 #118
Whiskeytide Sep 2017 #121
ThoughtCriminal Sep 2017 #122
xajj4791 Sep 2017 #149
hamsterjill Sep 2017 #161
JI7 Sep 2017 #125
JI7 Sep 2017 #128
TeamPooka Sep 2017 #130
democrank Sep 2017 #134
WinkyDink Sep 2017 #143
CakeGrrl Sep 2017 #137
Whiskeytide Sep 2017 #153
Are_grits_groceries Sep 2017 #146
Whiskeytide Sep 2017 #152
Are_grits_groceries Sep 2017 #164
Whiskeytide Sep 2017 #165
stonecutter357 Sep 2017 #154
samnsara Sep 2017 #155
NurseJackie Sep 2017 #156
Fluke a Snooker Sep 2017 #163

Response to Whiskeytide (Original post)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 09:49 AM

1. Last I looked 88% said they would vote for Trump again

in other words a hugely overwhelming majority

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Response to dalton99a (Reply #1)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 10:55 AM

13. Yep. ...

... leaving more than 6m who wouldn't. How many Dems felt that way about Obama in 2008 or 12? How odd is it that 12% of his voters have stepped away from him in only 10 months? Shouldn't we try to exploit that?

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Response to Whiskeytide (Reply #13)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 11:30 AM

36. And that's just the 12% who aren't still pretending not to have made a terrible error.

I suspect that there are more of these every day. We need messaging that makes a little room for them; if we're not going to stoop to pandering to racism and sexism, we need a fine economic and environmental agenda that they--or anyone--could get behind.

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Response to Orsino (Reply #36)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 11:38 AM

40. Exactly. I think you're right...

... that there are a lot of November voters having voter remorse. Kicking them in the face doesn't nurture that remorse. A message that resonates with them might.

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Response to Orsino (Reply #36)

Tue Sep 12, 2017, 09:08 AM

157. And what might that agenda be?

The Democratic Party has put forth several different proposals over the years to deal with both things, but they either don't have the power to enact them or Republicans keep blocking them. In order to appease Bernie supporters and help promote Democratic unity, the DNC put together its most far-ranging progressive platform to date but we still lost to Trump/GOP. Do we need to literally hit these Trump voters over the head with it to get them to vote for us?

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Response to Proud Liberal Dem (Reply #157)

Tue Sep 12, 2017, 10:05 AM

160. Trump has been hitting them over the head for us.

Dems may need nothing more than slightly revamped messaging that further emphasizes our policy's potential for their families.

It's said that people vote their values rather than their interests, but when the living embodiment of their values implodes before their eyes, it will be tougher for them not be swayed by good policy proposals.

He only needs to fuck over a few more Trumpists a little bit harder to blow 2020.

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Response to dalton99a (Reply #1)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 11:53 AM

45. I've seen this appeal to know and understand these people my whole life

By now I've got it. They're low info voters that have voted against themselves their whole life. Most won't change. Many aren't terrible humans, but they're bad, horrifically bad at politics. Many also have race issues and other bigoted issues. I think we can assume these people aren't suddenly going to find the light. They vote the same way, year after years after year... when you vote for crap, expect to be crapped on. Certainly don't look for respect from me. At least not in politics with these people. Look what they've created and try to respect that. You can't.

We've spent years cuddling these people, that's why they've not changed. It's time to give them no respect. They don't deserve it. Stop cuddling these people, seriously.

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Response to Johonny (Reply #45)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 11:57 AM

48. Agreed

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Response to Johonny (Reply #45)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 01:21 PM

73. Nailed it. Agreed.

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Response to Johonny (Reply #45)

Tue Sep 12, 2017, 08:43 AM

151. Exactly! Precisely why these fucks ARE a lost cause.

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Response to Johonny (Reply #45)

Tue Sep 12, 2017, 11:18 AM

162. Thank you!



They are 'always' the featured show. You know what? I don't care about them.

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Response to dalton99a (Reply #1)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 01:15 PM

71. But not all (100%) of the 88% voted for Trump in the primaries.

My theory is that if a better choice were offered (a republican primary candidate more likely than the democratic nominee in the GE), at least half would not vote for Trump again.

Plus when 88% claim they would vote for Trump again, there's a certain shame in admitting one made a mistake, a huuuuge mistake. They aren't going on record and take responsibility for their mistake.

So I wouldn't put much stock into 88% claiming that they would vote for Trump again.

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Response to dalton99a (Reply #1)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 07:31 PM

100. If Trump got 88% of his supporters the next time he'd lose.

 

If we swing 12% we win.

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Response to dalton99a (Reply #1)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 10:25 PM

126. 88% who *admit* voting for 45 would do it again.

At this point, I bet many who wouldn't vote for him again, won't admit doing it the first time.

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Response to dalton99a (Reply #1)

Tue Sep 12, 2017, 09:56 AM

159. Considering that W was 90+ among Republicans

in that category for much of his presidency, I would say that him dropping to 88% in 8 months is pretty encouraging.

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Response to Whiskeytide (Original post)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 09:50 AM

2. I encourage you to read the following essay. It speaks directly to your premise.

It is very long, however. It is filled with historical content that supports his thesis.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/10029566190


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Response to Whiskeytide (Original post)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 10:00 AM

3. Let me point out the obvious!

It was those Republican voters who believed they were going to be able to shit all over the "liberals", the welfare queens, the illegal aliens, and anyone else that didn't buy into their line of crap!

Now that they see the truth, they "regret" their decision...what a line of BS!

When people make stupid decisions, they get called out for them, and only those who show actual contrition can be considered to have learned a lesson! Let them admit that they were wanting more for themselves, while watching others suffer, as the reason they voted for that orange faced shit gibbon!

There will always be rewards or consequences for the decisions that people make, until those who were "duped" accept the consequences, them being shit on isn't a big concern for me!!!

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Response to atreides1 (Reply #3)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 10:24 AM

9. That's kind of my point...

... who is willing to show contrition in the face of personal verbal attacks?

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Response to Whiskeytide (Original post)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 10:06 AM

4. we better hope not.

63 million votes that are guaranteed Repub votes will be a tough hurdle to overcome, especially with the Electoral College the way it is. And the EC isn't going to change any time soon.

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Response to Whiskeytide (Original post)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 10:09 AM

5. they voted for a man who was an admitted sexual predator...

....what other bad choices have they made?

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Response to Whiskeytide (Original post)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 10:11 AM

6. Excuse Me?

The ones getting truly kicked around in this country are the ones who didn't vote for him. It's time the focus was taken off his voters and placed on those who didn't vote for him. Want to GOTV, work on getting the disenfranchised back their votes and stop worrying about white people who couldn't see beyond their biases.

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Response to Me. (Reply #6)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 01:30 PM

77. I totally agree, me.

I truly don't understand the desire to appease racists and bigots. Like the OP, I live in a very red area and I haven't encountered a single one who has any regret or remorse. Quite the contrary, they are happy their man/child is in charge and they hope he destroys the liberal "elites," forces immigrants, whether legal or not, out of the country, and puts people of color back in their "place." There are a ton more non-voters than racists who might eventually see the light. That is where our work should be.

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Response to brer cat (Reply #77)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 02:27 PM

86. It's The Old "Believe Someone When They Tell you Who They Are"

Their vote informs on them. Are we now going to spend out time and thought bending over backwards not only to catch their attention but please them? If the Dem party wants to attract more voters, a better effort would be to attract more Latinos/Spanish people and Asians into the voting booth. Their voting numbers are rising but could still improve. WE can focus on KObach and his/others efforts to destroy the vote. There is a lot we could do without having to resort to appeasing and spending money/resources on 45 voters. If they change their minds about him, great. But it is up to them to have a 'come to Jesus moment'.

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Response to Whiskeytide (Original post)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 10:13 AM

7. There you have it

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Response to Achilleaze (Reply #7)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 10:55 AM

15. Stealing that. N/T.

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Response to Whiskeytide (Original post)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 10:20 AM

8. Of course the goal is to keep shitting on Democrats instead

Last edited Mon Sep 11, 2017, 06:25 PM - Edit history (1)

I have observed that many of the people who insist we must extend understanding and empathy toward Trump voters show none of that toward Democrats who disagree with them in even minor ways, like something as trivial as media personalities. But the Trump voters, who all data shows voted based on race, are to be embraced. So-called "centrists" are the enemy, but the far right are potential allies. Just like Rand Paul is a hero for co-sponsoring a bill on penal reform with Kamala Harris, while she is demeaned as a "whore who slept her way to the top."

What exactly does "treating them like shit" mean? Do you have some observations about how people interact with Republicans? Or is your concern speech among Democrats, that some members of this site dare to suggest someone else's lives besides theirs matters? Daring to suggest that white men are not the most oppressed people in the country, that their earning 2-6 times the median income does not make them abused by the poor and marginalized? Is that what "treating them like shit" means?

I submit that if people want to encourage some sort of unity and understanding, they start by modeling it, toward Republicans if they like but also toward other Democrats, including those they have decided are "centrist" for daring to express concerns that differ from their own. I suggest they stop enforcing double standards with their own political tribe as held above the rest of humanity. I can't even count the number of lectures like this I've read from people who won't as much as speak to most Democrats.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #8)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 10:50 AM

11. I agree with just about ...

... everything in your post. And I think it's incredibly stupid for a moose to fight a squirrel.

But when you say that trumpets voted based on race, you might be statistically correct, but it's a generalization. Even if 90% voted because of race or sexism, that leaves more than 6m who didn't. That's a lot of voters possibly up for grabs, or at least disinterested enough to not bother next time.

And - Trump is bad enough that many of my republican friends are embarrassed. But if I chastiz d them every chance I get, how would that help? Much better, I think, to encourage them to be disloyal to their party by setting an example of sanity on our side.

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Response to Whiskeytide (Reply #11)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 11:07 AM

20. Okay, but what makes you think everyone else chastises Republicans?

I live in a city and work at a university. That means I encounter very few Republicans. Those I do know are in-laws, and we never discuss politics. I do, however, on this site regularly express frustration toward those who did not vote for Clinton, but that isn't limited to Republicans. But then this isn't a site for Republicans, so I imagine they see a great many things that disturb them here, most of which have nothing to do with chastising them. Merely expressing Democratic priorities on issues disturbs them, if the sites that monitor DU are any indication.

Certainly some voters in the middle who alternate between supporting Dem and Republican candidates will at some point vote Democratic again. That, however, does not include those who continue to support Trump, and I highly doubt what is said on DU impacts their decisions. I seriously doubt the great majority have even heard of DU.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #20)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 11:17 AM

29. I think you're right. And I...

... use DU to express my frustrations at times too. But it's not just at DU. There is a trend toward attacking trump voters in all levels of discourse.

And there is, in my mind, a stark difference between November trump voters and current trump supporters. Attacking trump voters lumps them all together.

My experience tells me a lot of his "voters" now think he's a dick. I'm not talking about his current supporters. But I think there are more of his disillusioned voters than many here think.

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Response to Whiskeytide (Reply #29)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 06:34 PM

98. I hope you're right

and I hope they regret their choice not to vote to reelect him, even if his opponent winds up being a woman or person of color.

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Response to Whiskeytide (Reply #29)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 11:27 PM

133. That always happens with every GOP POTUS

When everything goes to shit, they break down and vote for a Democrat, and then when the economy improves, they go right back to voting for a Republican. They'll come around on their own when the economy tanks again.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #8)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 11:38 AM

41. That is not what you have observed. That is what you have interpreted. There is a whole range


of perspectives on the more established, centrist wing of the party, and no, not all of them suggest our representatives are evil, or aren't trying to do good. I've personally had conversations with you as you know, and I don't have an ill opinion of our Democrats. I simply think their strategy has failed, I'm not even 50/50 on whether the alternative wouldn't be less successful, I just believe our trajectory is dire enough that we have to try. I do think some of our leaders are too insulated and out-of-touch with what is really wrong with our government and nation, but there are very few who sink to a level where I question their actual intentions.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #8)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 11:53 AM

44. disagreeing about politician's opinions of media personalities

 

is this the twilight zone

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Response to clu (Reply #44)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 12:27 PM

60. Daring to criticize media personalities

even on blatant factual errors, prompts outrage. I find it fascinating that so many who claim to oppose the one percent get outraged if multi-millionaires they consider allies are criticized.

I said nothing about politicians' views of media personalities.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #8)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 06:07 PM

96. ++++++++

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #8)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 06:12 PM

97. ★★★★★ A FIVE-STAR REPLY! ★★★★★

Thank you very much!

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #8)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 10:44 PM

129. This!

The Democrats I know wouldn't shit on anyone - EVER! But Republicans don't hesitant to resort to name-calling and insults when confronted with facts that they don't like. I quit trying to reason with them a long time ago.

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Response to Whiskeytide (Original post)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 10:30 AM

10. Whatever. I'm sick of this topic. Have you forgotten "Lock her up!"?

 

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Response to WinkyDink (Reply #10)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 10:55 AM

14. Yes

OPs point is better if they didn't revel in their stupidity.
They still yell it at rallies today .
Like a baby who poo's and then
takes it out and plays in it and smears it all over.
Only so much tolerance......

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Response to Whiskeytide (Original post)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 10:52 AM

12. I dissent!

As an alcoholic, I know that personal problems can only be addressed after first admitting the problem. Furthermore, being a dick and refusing to take responsibility comes from an inability to understand and apply ethics, and from being unable to imagine what another person is feeling--lack of empathy. Most Republicans have a common problem. (A smaller percentage of them are just purely antisocial, and irredeemably evil.)

For the vast majority of Republicans, the source of the problem is FUCKING STUPIDITY. They are too stupid to think for themselves, so they rely on authoritarian figures to tell them what to think. They are unimaginative and cannot place themselves in another's shoes (which, incidentally, directly defies the teachings of Jesus). The complexity of ethical behavior is beyond them. Knowing responsibility requires one to understand a logical chain of events, which ain't gonna happen with the stupids unless you hammer it into their brains, relentlessly.

I think Republican voters need to be reminded every goddamned day that all of this shit that is destroying America--climate change, corrupt and unethical politicians, predatory business practices, use of disinformation in the news media, penetration of our government by foreign entities, racism--all of it comes from Republican stupidity. All of it comes from stupid beliefs, stupid or nonexistent plans, stupid applications of public policy, and especially STUPID VOTING BY STUPID PEOPLE, which makes it all possible.

Reminding Republicans of how stupid they are worked amazingly well in 2008. Enough embarrassed and chastened Republican voters stayed away from the 2008 election to flip the Senate and give us President Obama.

Stupid people need a simple solution: you can stop fucking things up by never voting again.

I'm sorry if this hurts anyone's feelings, but I'm only saying it because I think it needs to be said, fervently and often.

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Response to sofa king (Reply #12)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 10:59 AM

17. But every time you say it ...

... to a republican voter, you scold them into another vote for Trump. You don't have to care about hurting feelings, but you should consider caring about whether you're driving someone to act on those hurt feelings and voting stupidly again. That's all I'm saying.

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Response to Whiskeytide (Reply #17)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 11:10 AM

24. I think that's where we diverge.

I think that scolding them, and sowing doubt, is exactly what is going to force them into inactivity. I think that coddling them empowers them. They need to experience shame for what they have done. Shame is the simplest shadow of ethics, and for some of them, it's all they can understand.

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Response to sofa king (Reply #24)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 11:34 AM

38. That's a rare person, I think, ...

... that self reflects in the face of accusations of stupidity. I think more respond to solid progressive arguments that hit home with logic and grace. But I don't know the trump voters in your area. Only mine.

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Response to Whiskeytide (Reply #38)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 01:07 PM

69. been there done that

Explained the reality of what something means, use logic and evidence. They say they get it and think about it. The next day they are back to rush talking points. They are that fucking stupid,

I was talking to a relative that loves her some Rand Paul. She is staunchly pro-choice. I pull up video of him saying he is anti-choice. She accused me of lying to smear him. I kid you not. Out of his own mouth he says that and she refused to accept it. You can't fix or reach people like that. And I refuse to coddle their asses anymore. Fuck them. They voted for a man who they knew was a racist, homophobe, misogynist and they are fine with it. Which by default makes them a racist, homophobe, misogynist. They have no place in a polite society.

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Response to Whiskeytide (Reply #38)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 07:51 PM

106. So you are saying HRC campaigned without such arguments, without "logic and grace"? GTHO.

 

Yeah, I'm not pulling any more punches in replying to CRAP POSTS.

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Response to WinkyDink (Reply #106)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 07:56 PM

109. How the hell did you twist ...

... that out of what I said? Amazing we can't win elections ANYFUCKING where when we are so much holier than everyone else!

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Response to Whiskeytide (Reply #109)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 08:02 PM

112. "I think more respond to....." "Lock her up!" Yeah, reachable. Not arf.

 

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Response to WinkyDink (Reply #112)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 08:52 PM

119. All you're doing is flinging shit. Youve ...

... posted more in this thread than anyone else with no substantive counter at all. Just barking in one liners. Perhaps we can, however, agree that not everyone is cut out to reach across the aisle. Some don't have the temperament or self discipline.

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Response to Whiskeytide (Reply #119)

Tue Sep 12, 2017, 05:11 AM

140. You have to decide at some point or another in your life

 

to stop making exception for the racist/homophobe/sexist/etc-ist behaviors.

We do not need to reach across the aisle and try to convince the racists not to vote for Trump. We do not need to permit them their excesses as long as they consider the information you provide them and think about change. These behaviors are unacceptable, including voting for Trump, and society should make that known.

Those 12% that "regret" what they did most likely only regret letting someone else know they voted for Trump. The vast majority of Trump supporters will continue supporting him because of their hatefulness towards some segment of the population. In order to stop supporting him, they would have to recognize that they are hate mongers and try to change. They will not do that.

Trump being elected is in direct response to two factors. Two terms of a black PotUS followed by a woman winning a major party primary.

My last point I will make is that when you do encounter Trump supporters who invariable explain their support as something other being racist/sexist/etc., they are lying. You choosing to believe them is what makes you think any of them listen to what you have to say and consider it in a serious manner.

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Response to Whiskeytide (Reply #119)

Tue Sep 12, 2017, 05:14 AM

141. Okay, fine. (BTW**, we don't have either a number or style post restriction. I like pithy.) Answer

 

this:

Describe a "Reach across the aisle" (an action NEVER requested of Republicans, I've noticed) persuading, even converting, argument that would:

1. Include proposals, arguments, or comments NOT made by HRC;

2. Adhere to Democratic principles.

**There's been a redundancy of threads with your topic. Heal thyself.

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Response to WinkyDink (Reply #141)

Tue Sep 12, 2017, 08:34 AM

150. It doesn't matter whether they...

... ask you to reach across the aisle. That should not stop you from doing it if it's the right thing to do.

They agree with most of what Clinton stood for. That has always surprised me. After we talk politics, I usually accuse them of being closet democrats. But they did not like Clinton, and it was a genuine dislike (even if they couldn't explain it).

I distinguish between them and republican politicians. They don't hate the country or want to see it destroyed. They don't believe tax cuts are the answer to all our problems. They believe D.C. Is broken and out of touch, and they hate political game playing and the influence of special interests. Most of them just don't believe big government is the answer either (and when I point out that republicans are more "pro big govt" for special interests, they agree, are critical of it ... but still think democrats are worse). They are disconnected, and I'm trying to hook them up.

Many are what I now call Kasich republicans. In fact, two of them wrote Kasich in because they detested trump so much. (I don't like Kasich at all, but he is more mainstream, I suppose). Dislike of trump is our common ground. They will certainly vote for a republican in 2024, but I think it's unlikely many will vote for trump in 2020 if he is on the ticket. I consider that a win, and I'll continue to stoke that disgust as much as possible.

And maybe the fact that there has been a redundancy of posts calling for a more strategic approach instead of hurling insults means that there is some merit to the idea.

Look. I'm not advocating that we water down our platform or shift right to reach these people. Most cannot be reached now. Maybe their kids or grandkids, but they are all 40 + and are not going to "see the light" any time soon. GOTV and message clarity are much better short term strategies. But personally I don't see the benefit of being rude and condescending. That might make you feel better, but it does not advance the progressive agenda.



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Response to Whiskeytide (Reply #17)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 07:48 PM

105. Oh, please. They are not little lambs who have gone astray. Knock it the hell OFF.

 

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Response to Whiskeytide (Original post)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 10:57 AM

16. You are a voice of reason around here finally.

It's easy to demonize and call Trump voters names. That means we don't have to do anything differently. It's the no-thinking, painless path. Of course, the Democrats will continue to lose over and over again on that path.

Instead of calling them all names, understand the key motivators for Trump voters (Hint: American Jobs).

Start fixing the Democratic message instead of just giving up.

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Response to FLPanhandle (Reply #16)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 11:07 AM

21. Agreed. You live near me...

...(based on your name anyway). I'm on the Gulf Coast in Alabama. I spend a lot of time at ball parks in AL, MS and the panhandle (both kids play). Lots of republicans. We talk a lot of politics between games (I'm sort of their pet democrat). They're not all dicks. And most of them don't like trump. But like everyone, they respect lucid argument and don't like to be scolded. I see no reason to scold.

Only people who either don't care to try and understand or don't live among and have to coexist with "the enemy" think it's a good idea to scold.

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Response to Whiskeytide (Reply #21)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 11:12 AM

25. I'm in Fort Walton Beach, FL

Like you, I live with, talk to, am friends with republicans. Many are great people that would give you the shirt off their backs. They are not all racists, evil, etc.

Granted, maybe they got fooled into believing what they desperately want to believe, which is someone is looking out for their jobs and future.

If Trump managed to sway them on that topic, then the failure is the Democratic party not owing that topic.

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Response to FLPanhandle (Reply #25)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 12:16 PM

54. Or simply a strong bias.

" then the failure is the Democratic party not owing that topic..."

Or simply a strong bias, or an even stronger idiocy. Often mere greed. Etc.

But I understand your desire to point to one and only one cause, as it fits a most consistent narrative.

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Response to Whiskeytide (Reply #21)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 11:15 AM

27. Clinton made lucid arguments

She did not scold or scapegoat. Trump was incoherent. If what you say is true, they would have voted for Clinton.

You can agree with that poster that jobs were the issue, but that view is directly contradicted by exit polls and post-election surveys.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #27)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 11:24 AM

32. Agreed on Clinton's poise...

And coherent message. But asking life long republicans to vote for Clinton is asking a lot. The best we could have hoped for would have been staying home en masse.

But that won't happen in 2018 or 2020 if they have been attacked and called stupid by the left. It just won't. No one likes to be scolded. And they tend to take it out on the scolder.

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Response to Whiskeytide (Reply #32)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 12:51 PM

67. Well that is exactly it

They don't vote Democrat, and it has nothing to do with policy. Political science data shows that people vote based on cultural signfiers rather than issues. And of course race and gender are part of culture. That is as much evident among Democrats as between Democrats and Republicans. To this day, significant numbers of Democrats refuse to even look at what Clinton proposed when she ran for president. They didn't like her, and that's all that mattered. We then see demands to adopt this or that position=-like jobs, when that is what Clinton talked about continually. Only they weren't interested in listening.

The only person I recall calling anyone stupid was not in the GE and it was directed at African Americans. In fact, the very people concerned with any criticism of Trump voters have repeatedly insulted the poorest and most marginalized Americans. Clinton's comment about the deplorables was a gaffe, but when put up against the truly staggering vulgarities Trump engaged in, it can't compare.

Here is what I think is happening with a number of white voters, especially men. They are angry that politicians don't speak exclusively to them. They believe themselves oppressed, despite earning well above the national median income, because some women and people of color have opportunities. They don't like hearing about black lives matter or women's rights. They want a government that centers them and only them. And that view is not restricted to the GOP.

Now how to we address that without again becoming the party of Jim Crow? Perhaps we should stop worrying so much about people who despise the Democratic party and its electorate and focus on standing up for what is morally just rather than catering to the basest elements of the American psyche? Why is there no discussion whatsoever about what is right rather than "brand" and "messaging"?

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #67)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 01:14 PM

70. Brava!

What a wonderful post. It should be its own OP. It makes a whole lot more sense than this OP, at least.

A whole lot of "good" people are willing to second-hand kill minorities in the US. That is what the OP's neighbors are doing, and we know it. They are willing to let Trump and the Republican party kill people, literally kill people, because these neighbors put themselves above trans soldiers, African Americans, women, Hispanics, and anyone else that isn't part of *their* group. I don't care how often they would give their shirts to other white men, I wouldn't call that a "good" person.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #67)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 01:46 PM

79. Outstanding! nt

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #67)

Tue Sep 12, 2017, 05:19 AM

144. Well said. n/t

 

.

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Response to Whiskeytide (Reply #21)

Tue Sep 12, 2017, 12:10 AM

135. No, it's you who is trying to rationalize pretending their votes aren't moronic- I get that you'd

 

Have to much of a social cost if you spoke your mind, or was even honest with yourself about how mean spirited as well as stupid they have to be to favor GOP policies (not just Trump).

Sorry that's your lot in life, but it's really a wonderful thing to be able to speak your mind because you're not outnumbered by angry people.

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Response to Whiskeytide (Reply #21)

Tue Sep 12, 2017, 05:17 AM

142. On the contrary,

 

I live in a very red state and have to deal with it every day. And every time I hear one of them get on their Trump bandwagon I call them out and correct their behavior. I do not and never will allow them to continue to verbally berate or harass non-white-males.

It is nice, however, for you to clarify your position with all of these Republicans. You are the token Democrat. /clap

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Response to FLPanhandle (Reply #16)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 11:10 AM

23. Election data proves your claim wrong

Both exit polls and post-election surveys demonstrate the ONE issue that Trump voters have in common is racial anxiety. Voter who said jobs and the economy were their primary concerns overwhelmingly voted for Clinton. You can't ignore that data and claim to care about what motivated them.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #23)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 11:14 AM

26. +1

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #23)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 11:19 AM

30. I haven't seen any surveys that showed that

I have talked with folks personally though. Some that were Obama voters, some that always vote R, some that I thought would always vote D but switched. I live and work in a deep red area. The theme presented over and over is "American Jobs".

However, maybe these folks are all exceptions. Send me the links to these survey results.

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Response to FLPanhandle (Reply #30)

Tue Sep 12, 2017, 09:54 AM

158. Are they all unemployed ? What jobs are they expecting? Are they currently in school or training ?

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #23)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 11:26 AM

35. Again. Statistically the majority may ...

... have reported that. But we don't need ALL of them. 80,000 strategically located non-voters would have been nice in November.

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Response to Whiskeytide (Reply #35)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 12:33 PM

62. And that includes the millions of disenfrachised voters

Yet rather that standing up for voting rights, we see endless concern about a few thousands white men earning over $75k-100k, the lowest income demographic that Trump won. Not only that, we see a corresponding effort to drive the party into enacting voter disenfranchisement efforts by replacing primaries with caucuses, the system that is most exclusionary to the elderly, disabled, poor, shift workers, people of color, and women with childcare obligations.

It's one thing to understand that voters in the middle determine elections. That is absolutely true. It's another to project one's agenda onto Republican voters as an explanation for the loss, which is exactly what we see happening. I'm not talking about you here, but rather something that has been going on since the GE.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #62)

Tue Sep 12, 2017, 05:23 AM

145. We should focus on

 

re-franchising voters and getting non-voters to vote rather than trying to "convince" any racist/sexist asshole to go Democrat.

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Response to FLPanhandle (Reply #16)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 07:53 PM

107. Hint: Thuggish ignorance.

 

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Response to Whiskeytide (Original post)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 11:02 AM

18. I agree and I wish you support...

But I'm not sure you'll get much. People would rather be angry and attack than strategic about it - rational thought will always take a back seat to emotions. Makes sense as that's what we really are: slaves to it vs the other way around.

I think we do need to think strategically though: we *will not make it* as a species - let alone a country - if we do not find a way to find common ground with people. Period.

Global challenges that will be brought on by climate change, economics, war - are looming and if we can't get our collective shit together the resulting dark ages will be hideous. Feeling smug and righteous (EITHER side) is going to doom us all and fear, hate, distrust, etc will be ACTIVELY pushed by a lot of people with vested inserts hoping to capitalize on disasters.

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Response to Locrian (Reply #18)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 11:09 AM

22. Couldn't have said it better.

I hope there are more that think like us but are not as vocal. We need every voice of sanity we can collect.

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Response to Locrian (Reply #18)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 12:09 PM

52. +1

Well said.

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Response to Whiskeytide (Original post)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 11:05 AM

19. Fuck 'em. nt

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Response to LexVegas (Reply #19)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 12:15 PM

53. Yep.

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Response to LexVegas (Reply #19)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 07:55 PM

108. Succinct and perfect.

 

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Response to Whiskeytide (Original post)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 11:16 AM

28. They can find their way to the Democratic Party.

We shouldn't have to coddle them. They screwed up and they should be reminded that they screwed up. Their actions or inaction is still having consequences. We should not do anything but put out the message of what the Democratic Party stands for and wants for the people of this country and the rest of the world. It is up to people to be informed.

Lost cause, I think is irrelevant. We are the same Democratic Party that we have been. We support Unions and we support living wages. We are generally against militarism. We are for gender equality and the protection of civil rights. We are for having a sane and equitable immigration policy. We support practicing any faith tradition, but not imposing particular faith traditions on the public, which means that if you own a bakery, you bake cakes for weddings, not just particular weddings that your god thinks are okay. If you are pharmacist and you get a prescription for birth control or the morning after pill, you fill it or make sure it gets filled by some one in a timely manner.

If Trump voters support that then they should vote for Democratic candidates, period. If not, then they should keep voting for whoever else espouses their values. Trump and the Republicans have repeatedly shown what their priorities are over the last 30 years, and their priorities do not include the welfare of poor, working class, and middle class people.

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Response to Whiskeytide (Original post)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 11:22 AM

31. OK. What, exactly are you going say to Trump voters to win them back that hasn't already been said?

* Dems will bring you better health care while Repubs want to shut it down? Check.

* Fox News is lying to you? Check.

* Donald Trump is a loathsome person, a failed businessman, and a Nazi sympathizer? Check.

* Repubs will cut your services and give the savings to the rich? Check.

* Repubs will destroy equal rights for women? Check.

* Repubs will do nothing to combat the looming global climate catastrophe? Check.

What would be those magic words that win them over?

On edit: There's a whole lot more more stuff I didn't get to. Don't have all day.

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Response to Girard442 (Reply #31)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 11:30 AM

37. All of the above and more...

... as long as it's not accompanied with "your vote killed people. There is blood on your hands, asshole!"

You can think that. There may even be some truth in it. But if you say it you get a defensive response. Even if they are beginning to regret their vote. I think that's counter productive to our goals.

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Response to Whiskeytide (Reply #37)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 11:54 AM

46. thanks for sharing

 

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Response to Whiskeytide (Reply #37)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 12:05 PM

51. Whatever we say to Trump voters...

...how about we avoid suicidal strategies that drive away ten potential Dem voters for every Repub who gets talked into switching.

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Response to Girard442 (Reply #31)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 07:29 PM

99. Their response? Stuffing fingers in ears, "LALALA FAKE NEWS FAKE NEWS FAKE NEWS!"

Fuck 'em.

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Response to Whiskeytide (Original post)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 11:24 AM

33. Well said. No one is convinced of anything by being called a name. eom

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #33)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 07:57 PM

110. Oh, you mean like "libtards"? "Killary"? "Demonrats"?

 

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Response to WinkyDink (Reply #110)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 08:30 PM

117. Yes, those also.

It is like a cheer for the team. It invites anger, which in turn short circuits thinking.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #117)

Tue Sep 12, 2017, 05:00 AM

138. Missing my point, which is a riposte to the "reach out" OP.

 

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Response to Whiskeytide (Original post)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 11:26 AM

34. My 2 cents

There may well be a handful of Trump voters that didn't vote for Trump for 'racial anxiety' and misogynistic reasons (however I doubt it based on recent analysis referenced in an earlier post.)

So here's what I hear when I hear 'let's be nice' and not hold them accountable they were only worried about their jobs and that is why they voted for a sexual predator-bully-scammer-unexperiencd-selfish clown'

-Donald Trump just became president tonight (every time after a barely cogent TelePrompTer reading)
-I think this is the point Donald pivots to being a real president (How many times have you heard that?)

-There are fine people on both sides.

Should a truly repentant Trump voter actually show up and acknowledge the damage they have done, I will drive them to the next RESIST event.

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Response to MLAA (Reply #34)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 11:58 AM

49. Attack Trump all you want. I do. But...

... attacking someone that cast a vote for him only makes you feel vindicated. It does nothing to advance the progressive agenda.

And 6-7 million voters is more than a handful. If only 5% of THEM had stayed home in 2016 ...

I think it's worth targeting those voters to switch or lose interest.

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Response to Whiskeytide (Original post)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 11:36 AM

39. If someone had the goal of making me feel shamed and stupid

... I would dig in my heels even harder to defend and explain my vote. That's human nature.

So I agree with you, even though I'm also persuaded by the opposing points being made. Trump voters *should* be made to feel bad about what they did. Unfortunately, calling them out on it is going to make them defend themselves, and that is going to make them entrench their position. That's a basic tenet of a form of persuasion called motivational interviewing, the other aspect of which is to let them argue with themselves to let them solidify their own new conclusions. People will listen to themselves more than they'll listen to someone who's trying to make them feel wrong and bad and stupid. So if they've already started arguing with themselves, the last thing we should do is get in the way of that process.

Everyone here is correct, IMHO. Trump voters who are changing their minds may *deserve* to be made to feel bad for what they did, but that would only be counterproductive for us politically, even if it would be gratifying temporarily.

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Response to renate (Reply #39)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 11:45 AM

43. Great insight.

Self reflection is a tricky animal. It's hard to "make" someone self reflect. But you can graciously encourage it.

Most of my conversations with republicans elicit quite a few "I agree with you on that..." responses. That's common ground. If I don't get that at all, I know pretty quickly I'm dealing with a true believer and I'm wasting my time. But I seldom fail to get that at all.

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Response to renate (Reply #39)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 12:05 PM

50. thanks for sharing

 

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Response to renate (Reply #39)

Tue Sep 12, 2017, 05:04 AM

139. Exactly what argument NOT made by HRC do you think would both accord with

 

Democratic principles and also win over the heretofore ignorant Trump voters?

That's three conditions.

I'll wait.

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Response to Whiskeytide (Original post)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 11:39 AM

42. It's a two way street. Are they making any real effort to learn about their fellow man?

Are Trumpgrets genuine? Or will these people vote for the next candidate who is even Trumpier than Trump and who won't have the cuts coming for them? I think we don't need to focus on people who are just upset with Trump until we ask ourselves, and them, these questions of things I don't see in these stories...

Do they find the notion of a person being "illegal" now silly?

Do they see something wrong when a person says that "All Lives Matter" but then shrugs and turns away when a refugee needs help?

How many mosques have they walked into and talked with the people there? What do they do when they are confronted with the notion that Muslims are people just like them?

When someone says gay and/or transgendered people are "deviant" or "sick", do they speak up in disagreement?

When people who look like them and believe like them are in their company and they call people who look different and believe differently lazy who don't deserve government assistance but that actually they earned their government assistance for some reason or another, do they stand up and call that wrong?

Those questions reflect the distorted ideas that helped Trump get into office, there simply can not be a rejection of Trump until there is a rejection of those distorted ideas. If they reject them, then welcome aboard. If they don't, well, it would be foolish to enable them. If they are quiet, then are they really rejecting these ideas?

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Response to ck4829 (Reply #42)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 11:55 AM

47. Some woke up only because Trump wanted to kill their Obamacare

Most are malignant racists and incorrigible assholes. Democrats have no business kissing their ass

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Response to ck4829 (Reply #42)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 12:21 PM

55. +++++

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Response to Whiskeytide (Original post)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 12:21 PM

56. Trumps' was nothing more than successful commercial branding for the lowest common denominators.

Trumps' was nothing more than successful commercial branding for the lowest common denominators.

Speaking with accuracy about the Trump demographics is often interpreted as "treating someone like shit."

So I suppose it depends on priority: accuracy or commercial branding.

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Response to Whiskeytide (Original post)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 12:24 PM

57. When did donald...

hide is racism? How do you vote for an open and unapologetic racist and get to claim you aren't racist?

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Response to Whiskeytide (Original post)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 12:26 PM

59. I do not give a fuck if they are sorry for voting him.

They voted from a space of hate and now it is to damn late to be sorry. They already have put millions of peoples lives in danger including theirs. This is not like a test in school that they fucked up on because they did not study because that only hurts them and not millions of people. That is great that they are sorry but will they vote differently next time? ( probably not. )

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Response to Doreen (Reply #59)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 12:48 PM

66. So how would you go about ...

... encouraging those that are sorry - or kind of have regret - to vote differently next time? Or to not vote at all?

I just don't think flinging poo at them is productive. If they marched in a Klan rally, yeah. Fuck them. But after 6 months of promotion on the WS websites for the big rally, I think perhaps 1,000 or so showed up? Maybe a couple thousand? That's hardly mainstream, even if Prez Shithead himself was supportive. Many of my republican friends were embarrassed by that event, and more so by Trumps not-so-veiled support of it. Or at least that's what they tell me.

The poll people keep citing to me in this thread says that 88% of his voters would still support him. That means 12% wouldn't. I suspect that's unprecedented after only 10 months (although I haven't researched it - maybe it's normal).

I'm willing to gamble that perhaps we can influence that 12% with good arguments for progressive ideals.

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Response to Whiskeytide (Reply #66)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 12:54 PM

68. I will wait until the next elections come up and

if they are TRULY sorry they will change their votes an not vote repuke at all because the repukes are on trumps side whether they say it or not. Just voting repuke is supporting trump. Time will tell and they have to PROVE it at least to me.

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Response to Doreen (Reply #68)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 10:50 PM

131. The ones in my proximity know what I'm about.

They're suddenly quiet.

They're grown-ups and know exactly what to do in any of the next elections if they experience a 'here comes the dawn' epiphany.

If they truly desire a non-combative conversation with me, I'll do it. With civility. Until then, I got better things to do.

So far, they haven't wanted discourse. I strive to be charitable in ordinary conversation with these. But don't push my button or else.

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Response to Whiskeytide (Reply #66)

Tue Sep 12, 2017, 05:33 AM

147. If they really regretted what they did

 

they would not need you to tell them what they should do in the future. While some may say they are regretting voting for Trump, I do not hear them saying things like "you know immigrants are people too, maybe I should vote for someone who treats them with dignity instead" or "you know ________ are people too, maybe I should vote for someone who treats them with dignity instead" and just fill the blank in with any group that is not strictly white male. Oh, are they not coming up to you in droves and saying that? Are they just saying that they voted for Trump and STILL lost their jobs? Or they voted for Trump and were attacked at the last Trump rally?

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Response to Whiskeytide (Original post)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 12:31 PM

61. The casual Trump voter left him long ago

If you still are on board with this nonsense, you are beyond help.

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Response to Whiskeytide (Original post)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 12:35 PM

63. "We have to STOP shitting on republican voters" Bullshit! If anyone has done any shitting here...

...it is the Trump voter. THEY choose to shit on decency by voting for a confirmed racist and misogynist of the first order. THEY are a lost cause because THEY choose to be. If anyone needs to be conciliatory, it is THEY, not us.

And please! I'm so tired of being told as a liberal Democrat that the fault somehow lies with me and that I need to reach out to these ignorant, drool-dripping, cow-tipping, hate/fear/race-obsessed quisling rubes. THEY voted for hate, ignorance and fear. Sorry, but I'm not getting on all fours and begging these people to try and use what little brain tissue they have to vote in their best interests.

Besides, at the end of the day, just in case you didn't notice, our side won the election and it was stolen from us. If we can just muster the will to energize our base better and prevent foreign governments from tampering with our elections, we''ll be fine.

Until then, I will continue shitting on Republican voters, and Trump voters in particular. After all, it is they who are actively turning this once great nation into a giant toilet bowl that is good for little else, right?

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Response to Whiskeytide (Original post)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 12:42 PM

64. Are many of Trumps voters still doing harm to people of color?

F#(k them. Are they the same voters that were saying, "Lock her up" last year.

I'm tired of people feeling sorry for Trump supporters, but none felt sorry for the Obama family and all the abuse they were taking over the years. F'em!

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Response to Whiskeytide (Original post)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 12:43 PM

65. nope

Last edited Mon Sep 11, 2017, 08:11 PM - Edit history (3)

They contniously vote for people that covertly, and more recently openly, use a platform that leverages white voter fear of brown and black people for their votes. I'm sure there are republicans that have decided to hold their noses single issue voters. There is even a chance they are the kind of people we don't even need to write off. However, the cut off on forgiveness for these type of republican voters was their support for trump. Once that vote was cast any easy reconciliation in the near future is an afterthought.

trump did not under any pretenses hide what he was about, what his platform was about, and what he intended to do when he got in office. His voters had better than a year and a half of him being utterly awful in the public eye to figure it out. They had years and years of back story on how much of a little crumb this man was to identify who and what he is. At no point did they stop and walk away from this guy. They let their white privilege act as a shield from his words. It allowed them the singular ability to discount his rhetoric as "just talk". Subconsciously they understood that most of what he was planning wasn't going to affect them immediately and consciously understood that what trump wanted to do would hurt objectively hurt "others". Before the "what about the black and brown people that voted for him" statement showup in responses I'll say this. I have even less for them than the "normal" trump voter. They ought to know better at this what the fallout was going to be. These are people either too willfully ignorant to fully understand the folly of their ways or felt they have enough of a "buffer" between "their-selves" and "the rest of us" for the shit to hit them as well. There have always been those that will sell out their own in order to get a preferred seat at the scraps table. Minority trump voters in any capacity are no different.

In any case, back to my original point. If you voted for trump in the last election you failed the test for being a reasonable person. Without deep and sincere apologies I will never believe a single one of these people. They ignored every single crystal clear indicator this guy was a complete garbage scow. Even now as he blunders around making the country worse every day with his republican cohort. His supports hold on for dear life, even the ones allegedly disavowing him. trump has embarrassed us in ways that the country may never recover from and STILL only 1 out of every 10 trump voters say they don't support him. Now mind you, it's not that they don't support republican fuckery or trumps stupid ass policies. Only that they don't "actively" support trump anymore. What makes anybody think these people can be trust worthy allies is be yond me. Do you really think they won't vote for another republican the first chance they get. One that can keep the dog whistle rhetoric to a minimum whilst clearly indicating that he or she will continue the republican platform's dirty work of white nationalism. I garuntee they will asap and the same Democratic votersso eager to embrace them will also find themselves stabbed in the back.

It goes without saying that I don't trust trump voters or former trump voters. By voting and continuing their support for him, even tacitly. They have discounted any support they could potentially lend to the Democratic party in the future. I understand it's hard for some Democrats to reconcile that their favorite aunt, brother, parents, cousin or best friends have done something truly horrible with their support for this guy. I am sorry you guys are going through this but similarly you should be empathetic that their vote is hitting home for your black and brown, sisters and brothers, in arms right now. Meanwhile these same trump voters who claim to not support him anymore are only doing so in the most tentative and excuse riddled words possible.

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Response to Whiskeytide (Original post)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 01:15 PM

72. Trump voters may not be a lost cause

but the real question is whether they're worth the Democratic voters that will be lost if we cater to Trump's voters.
I think I'll continue to treat them as they have earned.

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Response to Whiskeytide (Original post)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 01:24 PM

74. Why would you excuse people who are willing to let minorities be killed?

Your neighbors have said, at the voting booth, that they put their own well-being above the very lives of African Americans, trans soldiers, people with disabilities, and other minorities. Not only that, they voted for those who will do the killings. They chose to support murderers. Not matter how kind they are to their dogs, or how willing they are to give other white men the shirt off their backs, that counts for something. It tells us that 63 million people in the US are willing to make the trains run on time, no matter the passengers and what happens to them when they reach their destination.

Godwin's law be damned - what we do now counts. Those who voted Republican in 2016 are good Germans who want the trains to run on time, and are willing to sacrifice Jews, Roma, homosexuals, and the mentally and physically disabled for it. Those are your neighbors. Think about that.

Is forgiving racist Aunt Millie before Thanksgiving more important to you than the very lives of you fellow citizens?

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Response to KitSileya (Reply #74)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 02:29 PM

87. Because they see those issues...

... in what you and I believe is a skewed way. When someone says "black lives matter", they DO hear "black lives matter more". When you point out that they are misunderstanding the phrase, most of the ones I've talked to readily agree that black lives matter just as much as anyone's lives (maybe they're just being polite, but they almost always concede that - if they don't, they are deplorable and I'm done talking to them). You can attribute their initial position to stupidity, or to media conditioning - whatever. But I've had that conversation. I challenged them to find one legit quote from a BLM leader to the effect that black lives matter more, and they couldn't.

I'm not naive enough to think that guy might vote differently in the next election because of that exchange. But I DO think that perhaps he views BLM a little differently. And that's a point for our side.

Look - the posts in this thread disagreeing with me seem to be along the lines of "I'm not kissing a racist's or misogynist's ass just for a vote". I'm not advocating that. Just be strategic in talking to them. I'm on a mission to convert as many of these people as I can into doubters. I'm in Alabama so even if I get to 10,000 of them, it won't affect an election. But there are places it could.

You don't have to welcome them if it's not in you to do so. But don't piss on them either. There's no gain in that.


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Response to Whiskeytide (Reply #87)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 08:06 PM

113. You actually began with "Because." Amazing.

 

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Response to Whiskeytide (Original post)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 01:28 PM

75. Until they broaden their media choices, they are out of touch and out of reach.

As long as they stick with the likes of Fox, Breitbart, Drudge, Alex Jones, Rush Limbaugh, and even Facebook for their primary "information" sources, you'll never pry them away from their anger and fear (to which they're addicted).

There's no way to enlighten a closed mind.

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Response to Whiskeytide (Original post)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 01:29 PM

76. I'll leave the missionary stuff to you

They're dead to me.

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Response to Whiskeytide (Original post)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 01:42 PM

78. They willingly voted for a labor-stiffing admitted serial sexual assaulter . . .

They watched as PoCs got verbally and physically assaulted during his rallies, often with Schtroumpf's encouragement . . .

They saw the white power skins that attended his rallies . . .

They see the obvious . . . that he's mentally and physically unfit and vastly unqualified for the job of President of the United States . . .

Despite all of this, they saw nothing wrong with it and voted for him anyway.

They made a choice as grown adults, and now that it's painfully apparent that their choice as grown adults resulted in an undisciplined, corporate alpha-fail, shitshow mother-of-all-fuck-ups . . . their reasoning is "Well . . . YOU MADE ME DO IT!!!"????

That THEIR bad decision . . . . is somehow MY fault???


"You made me do it" is the abuser's mentality.

"Digging your heels in" is a defense mechanism and a tactical projection.

Why does everyone in this country wither like shrinking violets at the thought of owning a bad decision, revisiting sins, admitting error or looking in a mirror?

"I just don't want to ever be at fault or be made to feel or look bad" . . . WELL, TOUGH FUCKING SHIT!!!! Bite some bitter pills and admit that everything you believe is a corporate-narrated LIE.

Trump voters willingly threw the country away because "No one is looking out for the white guy any more!"?? But that's somehow MY fault that they think that way?

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Response to Whiskeytide (Original post)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 01:53 PM

80. These are flighty voters, they want candy and bling, and they want it now.

Even in the unlikely scenario that they could be persuaded to vote for a Dem rather than an R, they would not stay. For them, the grass is always greener on the other side of the street. Deep down in their dark, twisted souls, they truly believe that the next Republican politician will be better than the last bum they voted for, and god's own chosen candidate instead of picking a Democrat.

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Response to Whiskeytide (Original post)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 01:57 PM

81. Many voters are not doctrinaire party members who buy the whole package

In a two-party system that would be remarkable. For example, there are voters who are voting on gut feeling, disliking the opponent, a pet issue, or just hoping for a change. Many Hillary Clinton voters did not buy her whole platform or even most of it, and the same must be true for Trump voters. Some apparently didn't even like the candidate they voted for very much-- according to polls. SO there is hope.

The thing is that one does not abandon one's own principles to recruit such less dedicated voters. One stays true to the principles of the Democratic Party and liberalism/progressivism. The less intense voters will be attracted to the passion of those who are authentic and passionate, if their personality and beliefs allow. Given the in-authenticity of the President there is hope.

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Response to Whiskeytide (Original post)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 02:06 PM

82. Agreed we shouldn't shame the voter, (counterproductive), but should tar

The whole party with Trump.

You know that's just what they would do, and it would work.

We are all Americans and should all want the best for this country and the future.

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Response to mahina (Reply #82)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 08:08 PM

114. "The whole party" is, um, VOTERS for TRUMP.

 

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Response to WinkyDink (Reply #114)

Tue Sep 12, 2017, 04:48 AM

136. And Pence, and Rubio, and Ryan, and McConnell, and that Nunes dolt, and Issa, and every other

Republican in office.

Permanently, Benghazi them with the reek of him.

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Response to Whiskeytide (Original post)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 02:19 PM

83. Instead of telling us not to shit on Republican Voters

Why don't we put our efforts into telling ReTrumplican Politicans to quit shitting on Democratic Voters

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Response to maxrandb (Reply #83)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 02:23 PM

85. because such criticism falls upon deaf ears

 

this war is (has been fought) in the street.

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Response to Whiskeytide (Original post)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 02:21 PM

84. They are if they're still supporting him

Voting for him may be one thing.. if they're still supporting him - no.

They're treating everyone else like shit by supporting this fascist. They get zero respect or consideration from me.

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Response to nini (Reply #84)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 02:32 PM

88. I've made just that distinction ...

... don't argue with a deplorable. But believe it or not, many of them are not truly deplorable. I'm talking about those who ARE unhappy with Trump. 12% of his voters and counting.

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Response to nini (Reply #84)

Tue Sep 12, 2017, 05:44 AM

148. and the excusing continues...

 

oh you voted for him but now you don't support him so your now an okay racist. we can talk to you again whew. oh wait, sorry, we aren't calling you racist anymore because you got back behind the sheet instead of doing it openly.

Same with the OP. You draw a line in the sand and say these people are okay to talk to and convince of a better way because they are not "true believers". So everyone above that line, even if they have KKK sheets in their closets are okay and we can stop calling them names because they are really listening to their pet Democrat.

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Response to Whiskeytide (Original post)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 02:35 PM

89. I live in a purple state and I agree

Though, for the life of me, I'm not sure what causes one to vote for Obama and then Trump.

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Response to Cuthbert Allgood (Reply #89)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 09:34 PM

124. Me neither. Haven't met one of those. n/t

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Response to Whiskeytide (Original post)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 02:42 PM

90. OMG I totally lost track of time! Is it HUG-A-DEPLORABLE DAY again already?


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Response to NurseJackie (Reply #90)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 02:46 PM

91. Nicely put. (nt)

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Response to NurseJackie (Reply #90)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 07:31 PM

101. .

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Response to NurseJackie (Reply #90)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 08:09 PM

115. The days are ever so frequent lately! Does Hallmark know?

 

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Response to Whiskeytide (Original post)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 02:55 PM

92. If you're not acute enough to discern which of Trump or Clinton is the better candidate

Perhaps you should refrain from voting. Or crossing the street. Or owning a gun. Or driving. I'm sure there must be plenty of safe things that you can do in the privacy of your home, especially if you have a 24-hour care-giver.

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Response to Whiskeytide (Original post)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 03:49 PM

93. Disagree 100%.

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Response to Whiskeytide (Original post)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 04:59 PM

94. You know, there was a time

when I said "reach out to Republicans, they want the same things we do, they just have different ways of getting there".

Yeah, not so much anymore.

They chose, eyes wide open, to vote for hate. They voted for this guy after he was shown to be a sexual predator, a grifter, a racist, and so many other things. No, they are not all the things he is, but they sure are A-OK with them.

They still voted for him, knowing who and what he was. It wasn't a secret in the campaign and unless they were living in a cave, there was no way to avoid seeing coverage of his ugliness.

So, if some of them want to find some shred of decency and vote for someone other than him and his minions, then fine, but I wouldn't hold my breath. They have taken off their masks and chosen not to hide who they are anymore.

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Response to Whiskeytide (Original post)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 05:24 PM

95. Bigots 'n Pigs

Dog food.

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Response to Whiskeytide (Original post)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 07:34 PM

102. Right, regardless of the Nay-sayers.

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Response to Whiskeytide (Original post)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 07:36 PM

103. I agree. Even if it's only 12% we've GOT to figure out...

...a way to talk to people with different motivations and different histories. Consigning everyone to "they're dogs" (I think a reply I saw above) is not a way to move forward. It's nuts. Let's hone our skills to figure out how to communicate with the 12%.... and maybe the 20%..... Maybe the 30%...

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Response to Whiskeytide (Original post)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 07:42 PM

104. How come someone has to have ALREADY regretted...

... their Trump vote to not be in the "lost cause" group? We need to work!! Not sit around and watch Trump voters, hoping for change.

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Response to Whiskeytide (Original post)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 07:58 PM

111. "I grab them by the pussy, and when you're rich they just let you do it".

Oh hell no. No one good would say that is okay. No one with morals votes for that or thinks it's okay. NO ONE.

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Response to onecaliberal (Reply #111)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 09:32 PM

123. Not "okay". NONE of the republicans ...

... I know were "okay" with that. But they DID classify it as locker room talk. Most humans have said things they would never want to be publicly exposed. Most of us. That's how they saw it. I think that's shit, and told them as much. But they clung to the "no one is perfect" mantra.

But that IS one of my "go to" discussion nukes. It embarrasses them. Especially now that they are less taken by his side show.

Interestingly, one of my friends voted for him. Ex navy. He had no problem with that comment. "That's how guys talk when no women are around". But he loathes Trump now because of his handling of North Korea. I don't care why. Just happy he'll never vote for him again.

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Response to Whiskeytide (Reply #123)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 10:27 PM

127. That is NOT locker room talk is it describing SEXUAL ASSAULT. I don't care what they

Use in their twisted minds to justify it. They're sick pathetic fucks and none are good.

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Response to Whiskeytide (Reply #123)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 11:06 PM

132. Yeah, diligent church attending locker room talkers. n/t

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Response to Whiskeytide (Original post)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 08:12 PM

116. The problem is: I'm kind of a dick, too

So while your post makes perfect intellectual sense, I'm kind of a dick, too. It's really hard for me NOT to talk shit about Trump voters, to their faces. No promises.

The main difference between me and them? I'm not a SELFISH dick.

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Response to Nevernose (Reply #116)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 08:58 PM

120. I'm a dick too. It's a struggle...

... sometimes in red America, but my kids go to school and play ball with their kids. I fail sometimes, but I have to try.

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Response to Whiskeytide (Original post)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 08:44 PM

118. It is UP TO THEM to regain our respect

They knew EXACTLY what they were voting for and I don't want them having any influence in the Democratic Party.

We have endured their insults and smears for a generation. They will not get respect without real action to undo the damage that they caused. And that is not going to happen by just voting for a different member of the clown car brigade.

Until then: Better to appeal to non-voters than these sexist/racist/bigot imbeciles.


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Response to ThoughtCriminal (Reply #118)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 08:59 PM

121. Not ALL of them have insulted and ...

... smeared us. And we have to give them the opportunity to regain our respect.

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Response to Whiskeytide (Reply #121)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 09:29 PM

122. The next time I meet an exception

will be the first.

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Response to Whiskeytide (Reply #121)

Tue Sep 12, 2017, 05:46 AM

149. NO

 

we do not have to give them anything. They are socially unacceptable in MY United States. If they want MY respect back, EARN THAT SHIT!

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Response to ThoughtCriminal (Reply #118)

Tue Sep 12, 2017, 10:10 AM

161. Totally agree.

I would add that, in my opinion, the Trump voters only "respect" strength - as they define strength. Anyone trying to get along with them will be seen as weak and therefore, someone to be bullied.

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Response to Whiskeytide (Original post)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 10:15 PM

125. who the fuck is shitting on Republicans ? it's Republicans in Missouri who voted against Funding for

Harvey .

as a brown person they shit on us by supporting Trump. fuck them .

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Response to Whiskeytide (Original post)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 10:34 PM

128. Fuck Them, they are Bigots who Cheer on Kids and parents being separated and deported , they cheer

on black kids who are shot and killed.

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Response to Whiskeytide (Original post)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 10:45 PM

130. I will not spend one second of the next two election cycles trying to "win over Trump voters" that

could be put to better use registering new non-voters for the Democratic Party.
That's who we need to win over.

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Response to Whiskeytide (Original post)

Mon Sep 11, 2017, 11:54 PM

134. Whether we agree with it or not

the Electoral College system is our system, and whether we like it or not, something has to change with the Democratic Party unless we're satisfied with the amount of red on the post-election map.

Democrats have been losing state and federal seats for over a DECADE, so we can't blame our loss totally on Trump or Bernie Sanders or the "hard left" or young people or woman-haters . We even blame Independents....who outnumber us.

There are some voters we'll probably never reach, but maybe we should step down from our little castle on the hill and listen to what many voters think about our moat.....and why. I'd like to see more dialogues opened and fewer doors slammed in the face of change.



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Response to democrank (Reply #134)

Tue Sep 12, 2017, 05:19 AM

143. You know what? It's called Social Security, Medicare, the 40-hr week, Unemployment Compensation,

 

Environmental laws, Civil Rights, Medicaid, The ACA, Child Labor Laws, Women's Suffrage, Roe v. Wade,......

Yeah, let's play nice to the deliberately ignorant. You first.

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Response to Whiskeytide (Original post)

Tue Sep 12, 2017, 04:58 AM

137. The focus should be on people who DIDN'T go to the polls

Everyone has their own way of reacting to Trump voters in their sphere, but I wouldn't waste any time trying to win them over.

If the 'nice' Trump voters were somehow truly duped and are aghast at the racist, sexist policies emanating from this administration, then they should be truly shamed and their buyer's remorse may hit closer to home than they ever expected.

If they figured that Trump's damage would be wrought on 'others', then they really aren't that nice.

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Response to CakeGrrl (Reply #137)

Tue Sep 12, 2017, 08:50 AM

153. Agreed on GOTV, ...

... but I don't think shaming is effective. I think it's counter productive.

He's lost 12% of his support in 10 months. We should be able to reinforce that disgust and grow it, and still work on getting out our own vote. Elections are too close these days.

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Response to Whiskeytide (Original post)

Tue Sep 12, 2017, 05:24 AM

146. Not gonna stop.

I am related to these people and many were friends. They were following Trump's call even before he started. I have argued and talked to them for YEARS. I tried once more because Trump was so outrageous. They liked or even loved him. Most still do.

I told them I had disliked Trump for years. I had no idea what party he belonged to because he was seen with both. He has always been an unethical jackass and nothing changed. They signed up for his hate and racim.

They own this horrible mess. They betrayed their so-called Christian ethis and spit on the foundations of this country. I want NOTHING to do with them. I will not waste another second of my time talking to people who don't listen and don't care.

You talk to them. You use your time on people who are dug in because of their true beliefs and because they will not admit they were wrong. In talking to some of them before I quit, I knew it would take a Saul-like conversion for many of them to change. If they change, then they change. It will have to be because they tried to findvthe souls they threw away for a mess of pottage.

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Response to Are_grits_groceries (Reply #146)

Tue Sep 12, 2017, 08:44 AM

152. I think that's all true ...

... for many of them, Grits. But not all. I'm seeing a lot of them that are disgusted with Trump now. They don't openly acknowledge regret for their vote ... yet ..., but you can see it in their eyes and their shoulder slump. These are the republicans I'm talking about. I'm not trying to establish a dialog with genuine Trumpers. Anyone still enthusiastically supporting him now is not worth my time.

But I don't see a reason to shame them. That just solidifies the us v them perception.

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Response to Whiskeytide (Reply #152)

Wed Sep 13, 2017, 08:01 AM

164. You DO NOT know the people I am talking about.

It has come down to us vs them. It is racists & bigots vs open-minded people. I REFUSE to listen to that bullshit or their rationalizing racist behaviors. I will not give them one inch on this.
I don't care if they like the ACA, unions and whatever. If they are racists, that is it.
I have seen what harm that stance does all my life.

Don't ever explain to me again about what I need to do. As I said, I have dealt with these people for decades and seen them in action. More have become open about it.

If they have a true conversion, good for them.

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Response to Are_grits_groceries (Reply #164)

Wed Sep 13, 2017, 12:09 PM

165. I did not mean to be...

... presumptuous nor tell you what to do. Please accept my apologies.

And I'm also sorry you have had to deal with that in family or past friends -people you might otherwise care about or perhaps still care about anyway. I've lived in the south for much of my life as well, and I know those people too.

I wish you well. Always enjoy your posts.


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Response to Whiskeytide (Original post)

Tue Sep 12, 2017, 08:56 AM

154. If you voted for a pos racist you are a POS racist.

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Response to Whiskeytide (Original post)

Tue Sep 12, 2017, 08:58 AM

155. they voted for a self admitted sexual predator... they knew what..

..they were doing. fuck em...I don't want them to join my party I want them to crawl back under their rock and die.

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Response to Whiskeytide (Original post)

Tue Sep 12, 2017, 09:01 AM

156. LOL! LOL! ...

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Response to Whiskeytide (Original post)

Tue Sep 12, 2017, 01:41 PM

163. EVERY Trump voter is a lost cause

 

Every stinkin' one of them white privilege Nazi's need to feel the pain of the electorate in 2020.

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