No, the outrage about wealth is not color blind

[BainsBane]

DU is not full of threads complaining about what white people, especially white men, buy. We now have one about Beyonce. I remember one a few years ago about Oprah merely looking at an expensive handbag.

We do not see threads about Jaime Daimon's most recent purchase. We don't even see threads about male celebrities' extravagant lifestyles. This is what we do see. Defenses of wealthy celebrities like Bill Mahrer's use of the N word. Proclamations that anyone who takes offense his using it toward black people is "stupid." We also see members rushing to defend not just one but SIX multi-million dollar homes by Susan Sarandon. https://www.democraticunderground.com/10027724453

Yet defending Sarandon's wealth wasn't enough. She became a martyr. People changed their avatars in support of her. https://www.democraticunderground.com/10027724675
And my response to the excuse she was "Dixie Chicked": https://www.democraticunderground.com/10027724675#post3

No, it isn't color blind. It isn't across the board. It's very selective. It's toward women of color whose wealth transgresses the social order that places women of color at the very bottom. White male wealth, even some wealth by white women, is acceptable--laudable even-- as long as they are the right women. But seeing a black woman with wealth just doesn't seem right. It has to be commented on, denounced. It violates the established order.

[mcar]

1. That thread is beyond silly

Want to talk about income inequality? Great. But singling out one person, oh BTW a successful black woman, is absurd.

[BainsBane]

2. Exactly nt.

[obamanut2012]

9. A self made WOC who has been working since she was a kid

[elehhhhna]

42. It does seem that successful women and especially successful women of color

get put under that microscope. On the other hand when a bigshot banker buys a bazillion dollar home, people don't know . When an entertainer does it, there's usually a press release. Entertainers who live in the public eye want to remain in the public eye to some extent, and showing off wealth is part of that .

Honestly, does anybody expect Beyoncé to live in some cheap little walk up apartment? I suspect the place he lives right now is pretty nice...

[SaschaHM]

3. Stop making this about melanin.

It's like Trump saying that he doesn't rush to judgement. There's a history counter to that. If folks want to claim that they're wealth disparity outrage is color blind, they better gin up some posts about Tom Brady's Salary or Robert Downey Jr's Avengers paycheck.

[JustAnotherGen]

5. Good points

Doesn't Tom Brady fly private with Ben Affleck? What about all those folks that flew private
to the DiCaprio foundation Gala a few weeks ago?

[JustAnotherGen]

4. I wonder if Sarandon

Did this:

http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/19/entertainment/feat-jay-z-protesters-bail/index.html

She also confirmed her statements to the New York Daily News and Guardian newspapers.
"I can say I've personally helped facilitate donations they've given to protesters directly and that they never ask for anything in return, especially publicity," the Daily News quoted her as saying in an email.

A publicist for Jay Z did not immediately respond to a request for comment.
Hampton's assertions com

So they don't go to the protests so they don't detract from the message . She voices her concern in her music. But she's some sort of vile rich person?

I have not seen the latest "beyond-rage" but seriously? Can they find anything - just One Thing else to get twisted about?

[BainsBane]

16. Someone insisted Beyonce had no "social value."

Last edited Sat Aug 19, 2017, 11:21 AM - Edit history (2)

and therefore didn't deserve wealth.

[SergeStorms]

24. On DU?

I hadn't read that, and I'd be surprised by it. There are a lot of trolls though, so anything is possible. Being a white male I always try to use a lot of empathy towards other people's issues. I try not to judge anyone until I've at least walked a few miles in their shoes, at least in my imagination.

If this did happen on DU, I believe you have every right to call someone out on it. We're all in this together (at least I HOPE we are!).

[BainsBane]

45. On DU

To clarify, they said she had great wealth for a job with with no social value. https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=9486966

[JustAnotherGen]

37. Gah

Her song "make love to me" was our second wedding song. Did a fast number before dinner - after dinner that one. It's okay to have "heart value" right?

[Drahthaardogs]

56. That's an outright lie!

I said, singer's social value does NOT justify exorbitant salaries and that our value system is skewed where entertainers become billionaires while school teachers are on food stamps.

I used an example of my cousin who is a PhD-post doc in biochemistry and works at Mayo clinic in cancer research or less than $50,000 a year. Oh, she's a woman too.

You somehow turned that statement into an attack on black women.

[BainsBane]

57. I clarified

what you said and provided the link. People can see for themselves.
I made that clarification here. https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=9488104

How is it possible to grow up in America and imagine wealth relates to social value? Do you not understand what capitalism is?

[Drahthaardogs]

58. I told you Rockefeller brought my grandparents over

And indentured them in a coal mine. The houses and the company store still stands.

We took it back at Ludlow with the Coal Wars. My papa knew Mother Jones.

I have lived unbridled Capitalism. I understand it in ways you never will

[BainsBane]

60. You told me?

I don't think so, unless it was in that hidden post I never saw.

Don't presume you know my background.

[Drahthaardogs]

61. I grew up watching the struggle. My dad was a school teacher

As was my mom. We were on food stamps. So tell me again how I don't understand Capitalism.

Please inform me how my life experience is wrong.

[BainsBane]

62. I grew up poor as well

on welfare, and of course on food stamps. I worked from age 10 so I could afford to do my own laundry.
How does that make Beyonce's wealth worse than Susan Sarandon's?

The problem is the system of inequality, a system that is reinforced by justifying wealth held by some over wealth held by others.

[Drahthaardogs]

66. The problem here is you keep wanting to make this about Beyonce

I couldn't care less if it was her, Stephen Tyler, Justin Bieber, Sarandon, Aflec, or any other entertainer (including athletes). We value and PAY the wrong things here.

ALL entertainers have very limited societal value and are paid exhorbitant wages. They aren't curing cancer.

I am shocked at the response here.

What really bother me is how you took that stance and somehow twisted it into saying I attacked her for being a rich, black, woman.

I don't think you did it out of manipulation, I think you generally have your mind go there on EVERYTHING. You successfully took a post about what we value as Americans and twisted it into fitting your cause.

[BainsBane]

75. It's not about you per se

Some of us observed that these threads appear about women of color, while there is a conspicuous absence of this sort of outrage toward others. The observation was about tendencies on DU. You decided to counter that claim, only refused to provide any evidence for your assertion that condemnation was universal. You were also particularly glib in your refusal to do so. I then, in that thread and this, provide evidence that people in fact have gone out of their way to excuse wealth held by some celebrities, like Sarandon, whom they perceive as one of them.

This only became about you in that you insisted on proclaiming the existence of something that does not exist and for which you could not bother to even try to provide evidence.

What you value as "Americans"? There you have lost me. Class envy is not a typical American value. I don't know what you are referring to when you say "what we value as Americans." The American dream,the Horatio Alger myth, involves working one's way up from nothing. While few Americans historically or today have such opportunity, Beyonce and Jay Z are among the few who have fulfilled that dream. They defied insurmountable odds to become extremely wealthy. I do not resent their success. I do object to an economic system that creates great disparities between rich and poor, but that is not the same as targeting individuals, particularly when others are excused and even martyred.

[BainsBane]

63. Additionally, race is very much part of that system of inquality

Wealthy women of color are extremely rare. They are on average the poorest demographic in America. So when I see DUers defended wealth held by Sarandon and other white one percenters only to again express outrage that a woman of color is wealthy, it raises flags for me.

The last thread of that nature was about Oprah Winfrey. A recent thread about Al Gore's wealth was met with universal support for him. The standards are not the same. Your pretending they are, as you did in that other thread, only denies the inequality that structures society along race, class, and gender lines.

[Drahthaardogs]

67. Oh my God

I. THINK. SUSAN. SARANDON. IS. OVERPAID. TOO.

So is Andrew Luck.

[msongs]

6. the 1% crowd is not treated kindly on DU nt

[haveahart]

7. I am sure Beyonce cares.

[BainsBane]

14. Clearly you are ignoring evidence

Members of the 1 percent are revered. I can think of one in particular who is treated as infallible.

Your statement is not honest.

[melman]

32. "I can think of one in particular who is treated as infallible."

It's always always always about that particualr someone in particular.

[Rob H.]

33. I'm surprised there's not a drinking game built around it yet

Last edited Sat Aug 19, 2017, 08:49 AM - Edit history (1)

especially given the plethora of regular threads bashing that person in particular.

Edit: or maybe there is and so far no one's told me about it.

[JustAnotherGen]

38. Well she was against me

And only out for herself. I'll never give that one a cent of my money again. She has no cultural value. There is zero cultural value in Dammit Janet.

[BainsBane]

47. Try to focus for a minute

If you can. The point is double standards and hypocrisy. People claim the outrage to Beyoncé would extend to anything one, only it doesn't. The examples in the OP demonstrate that clearly, as do defenses of many other extremely wealthy people. Then there are one percenters who may not rise to that level of extreme wealth but have more than 99 percent of Americans. Clearly the poster's point that one percenters are not treated well on DU is demonstrably and unequivocally false.

[Warren DeMontague]

124. HEYYYY MAAN THAT WASHHH MY IDEA!

*hic

[Rob H.]

127. How many drinks do I take...

...when someone makes a thinly-veiled dig at you-know-who and then tries to pretend they didn't?

[Warren DeMontague]

128. subtract that from the number of times they based an entire thread on strawmen

and you'll be fine.

[BainsBane]

46. Do you dispute that fact?

It was a direct refutation of that poster's claim that the 1 percent are not well though of a claim she made despite links in the primary hr ad showing some extremely wealthy one percenters treated as heroes.

Another example is Thom Hartman. We just had a whole slew of threads about how he should not be criticized. He most certainly is a one percenter, the cutoff for which is just over $400k a year.

[lunasun]

79. Agree

[yardwork]

40. ....

[BainsBane]

48. And it is that repeated refusal to examine evidence

or to consider blatant contradictions that expose arguments and political postures as empty.
The justifications are ever shifting according to an us vs them approach to the world, and Beyoncé is seen as a them, whereas many other wealthy people and 1 per enters are not. There is no principle and no common standard. Instead there is the clear absence of both.

[obamanut2012]

8. Cosign all of this

Successful women are attacked, successful WOC are savaged.

[underthematrix]

10. Thank you. BlackWealth is one of the reasons we

have seen a resurgence in white supremacy. I love #BlackWealth and want much more of it. They have done so much for AA children, families, communities and businesses. I want more more more more more.

[BainsBane]

17. Wealth and political participation

And power, as in Obama and possibly Harris.

[underthematrix]

18. Not sure what you mean by adding President obama and

Senator Harris. I'm thinking of #BlackWealth as helping encourage and sustain #BlackExcellence in all areas of life. Most #BlackWealth is hidden

[JI7]

21. birtherism white supremacy had a lot to do with backlash against obama and other minorites

making gains in society, politics etc.

[sheshe2]

54. ......and Obama's speaking fees!!!!

Such outrage....

[SweetieD]

11. I agree.

[ghostsinthemachine]

12. There's an Al Gore thread currently

About his wealth being a detriment to his climate change argument.

[BainsBane]

13. Someone posted it in the context of environmental advocacy, correct?

Did they talk about how he shouldn't buy something or another?

[BainsBane]

15. Here is the thread

https://www.democraticunderground.com/10029486007

Not one post of disapproval.

Compare it to this. https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=9487176

Please, look at both and get back to me.

[all american girl]

31. WOW after reading the Beyonce thread, I need a shower.

Some don't realize that wealth itself isn't evil, it's what you do that is...and yeah, not hard to miss the fact that WOC get shit on sooooo much more.

[JI7]

19. the reaction to beyonce is very revealing. i had a bad feeling about the election when i read about

the backlash to beyonce at the country music awards. it was some very very ugly stuff.

these things really do reveal what it is that people have issue with.

[leftstreet]

20. Wish there was outrage about the unsustainable minimum wage

Wish there was outrage about the system itself. A system that can't manage to maintain decent, livable non-eroding wages for a McDonald's worker, a teacher, a dog groomer, an IT employee or a carpenter

sigh. Everyone always talks about the wealthy instead

[JI7]

22. when people vote for people like Trump and Scott Walker you can't expect much.

[Hekate]

25. Twaddle. There's plenty of talk here about all of those things. DU just periodically ...

...goes off the deep end with displays of the bitterest envy at the sucess of others. How dare any Democrat get to be obscenely wealthy, even if they share it generously with others? True Democrats must never fly first class, and in fact should bicycle everywhere in order to maintain a small carbon footprint, otherwise they are hypocrites.

See, I know the whole rigamarole by heart, it's been thrashed over so much here.

Patience. We'll return to our regularly scheduled programming of talking about minimum wage shortly.,

[JI7]

26. well, depends on the person. in some cases they will even defend those who threaten to kill a

mentally ill homeless woman.

[leftstreet]

28. depends on the homeless person

some people really aren't

[JI7]

29. because it would just be ok if they were not homeless

but in this case they were .

[MrsCoffee]

123. What the fuck?

What a disgusting thing to say.

[leftstreet]

27. Rage when people have too much, not when they don't have enough

Take out 'Beyonce' and '$90 million home,' substitute 'welfare recipient' and 'twinkies'

Same thing

[Hekate]

30. I'm sure there's a point in there somewhere

[Warren DeMontague]

23. "Sarandon!"

[ATL Ebony]

34. Thanks again for the clarity -- it's a discussion worth having, IMO

Most don't recognize it happening. A women of few words here but appreciate those who can organize their thoughts and express some of my identical concerns.

[MrScorpio]

35. Damn Skippy!

[betsuni]

36. K&R

[brer cat]

39. K&R

[WhiskeyGrinder]

41. K&R. A person can hate the capitalist system and still take great delight when one of the targets

within that system succeeds. And to me, the specific example of Beyonce is especially gratifying, considering the way black women's bodies, labor and art have been commodified for so long. "Formation" may be partly a paean to making money, but I say GET IT GIRL.

[BainsBane]

50. I'm all for critiquing the system

And working to change it. But this sort of selective outrage tells me that it isn't the system at all that some resent but the fact that the wrong sort of people have wealth. Whereas when the right sort, those in their political tribe, have wealth, they are protected and even treated as martyrs.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

51. Exactly.

[erpowers]

43. Not About Race or Gender

This is not about race or gender. This is about price tag. It has never been reported that Jamie Daimon bought a $90 million home. Susan Sarandon may have six multi-million dollar homes, but most likely none of them costs $90 million. It is very likely that all six of Susan Sarandon's homes do not equal $90 million.

I have no problem with Beyoncé, or anyone else buying a $90 million home. However, I can understand that some people might get upset that one person has a $90 million home while millions are either homeless, or struggling to pay a house note, or rent.

If Ellen DeGeneres had bought a $90 million home the response on this board likely would have been the same. I think the main reason there is very little criticism of white people buying homes is that you do not hear about them making big purchases on home.

[BainsBane]

44. If it isn't

Why the excuses for Sarandon? Where are the threads critical of purchases by white men?

How do you know none of hers costs $90 million? Combined they are certainly worth more than that. So what exactly is the cut off? Six $5-20 million dollar homes are okay, but 1 $90 million isn't? How about 12 x $30 homes? Is that okay? What is the line being making someone a Martyr who is recognized and someone who is assailed for having more than they deserve?

And please, provide the links to outrage threads about white men's buying super expensive homes. Since it has nothing to do with race or gender, you should have no problem coming up with links. White men hold the overwhelming share of the wealth in the world, so there is no shortage of buying to be outraged by.

[erpowers]

49. $19.5 Million

The five homes, owned by Susan Sarandon, you listed have a total value of $19.5 million. So, the homes are no where near $90 million. I am not upset, or concerned that Beyoncé and her husband purchased a $90 million home. I doubt there is a cut off for how many homes a person can have before it stops being okay. My point is there is a big difference between a $1.5 million home and a $90 million home. There is also likely a big difference between someone who has six homes that are worth $20 million and one $90 million.

First, people did not defend Sarandon's right to own multiple multi-million dollar homes; they defended her right to oppose a Hillary Clinton presidency. Second, it is likely that if Sarandon had purchased a $90 million home the same people who are upset at Beyoncé and Jay-z purchasing a $90 million home would be upset about Sarandon purchasing a $90 million home.

[BainsBane]

59. To oppose a Clinton presidency in favor of a TRUMP presidency

and of course she has a right to promote Trump and his Nazi base. That isn't the point. The point is they most certainly did defend her wealth. They said it was wrong to demonize the rich. That is a fact. She is an extremely wealthy person championed, defended and martyred. You'll have to excuse me but I'm not seeing a huge distinction between $19 million and $90. For most people who are not rich, the distinction is meaningless. From my perspective, anything over $100k a year is a fuck of a lot of money.

My point was that she said in a position of extreme comfort to glibly call for revolution that risks the lives others is irresponsible and frankly reprehensible. We saw that revolution in Charlottesville. That is the world that Sarandon made.

Now, you may think an alliance with fascism makes extreme wealth better than those who support Democratic candidates and give t heir money to the poor. I do not.

But what your splitting hairs about $19 million and the righteousness of arguing for the defeat of Clinton to trump demonstrates is that you are more than willing to excuse extreme wealth as long as you approve of those who holds it. It demonstrates there is no principled critique of capitalism or inequality. In fact, it reveals a clear determination to maintain the existing social order where the right people sit at the top and the rest are excluded.

Meanwhile, Thom Hartman is not to be criticized while multiple vacation homes and off-shore trusts from other one percenterss cannot even be spoken of because they are the right sort of one percenters.

The shifting excuses and justifications only highlight that there is no principle at work. There is the world according to us vs them. Beyonce's wealth is illegitimate because she isn't one of you. Sarandon's wealth must be defended because she is one of you.

Now you have a glimpse into why the rest of electorate did not think putting the demands for more wealth for a chosen few above their own interests was a worthwhile use of their vote.

[BainsBane]

90. Your math is wrong

That article lists one home valued at 11.9 million. Another NY estate at 1.75 million. It also references a home in LA and three apartments in Manhattan. According to you, a total real estate value of 19.5 million would mean she bought three NY apartments and one LA home for a total of $5.85 million. While it's certainly possible to buy housing at that price, they are not the sort of homes pictured in those photos.
I've watched enough HGTV to know a million dollar apartment in NY is basic, nothing Sarandon would live in.

So despite your claims that 19.5 million is just fine and not at all excessive, your math is wrong.
You do, however, make provide a good example of precisely what I was talking about in my OP.

[treestar]

53. I agree, are we forgetting

Mc5homes, how many palaces McCain had? It's the distribution of wealth that is the issue. Entertainers may not even be in the 1% for all we know.

It is typical to think entertainers and sports people make too much, but that is because our society is so willing to spend money on it rather than other things. We are the entertained society. The sports are entertainment.

If we had a more intellectual society, artists or teachers might make more.

[treestar]

52. It is recent I assume

and in the news, but I am sure we can find white men with the same issue. We can start with Donald and Trump Tower. I'm sure we have many criticisms of Donald of Orange's castles of gold.

[BainsBane]

55. Which is exactly the same

as honing in on a Democratic celebrity who is not president, who is not compelling taxpayers to pay for her luxury. Trump is not an equivalent or an excuse. If there are so many examples of threads critical of the consumption of white men of means, feel free to link to them.

[OBenario4]

64. I hope outrage about wealth concentration is not blind by any measures.

The fact is that Beyoncé is a billionaire, owns dozens of companies, has business everywhere in the planet, is one of the most powerful women of the world. I don't think identitarian movements should be worried about her. There are black mothers being shot by police, going hungry, needing to see a doctor, sleeping on the streets, suffering real problems of the real world, while we debate if Beyonce is being oppressed by criticism for her money fetishism and ostentation.

[OBenario4]

65. And, personally, I don't like...

... the way that she mixes consumerism and political activity. It looks like the message she passes is "you will be empowered if you can buy 90 million dollars mansion". I don't like this message, we had too much of that already. Also don't like the objetification thing. But that's another point.

[JI7]

69. I don't get that from her. Maybe the issue is yourself

And the things you feel are important and blaming her for it.

I'm not much of a beyonce fan but know many who are and it's all about the music and just singing along to it and dancing.

I have never heard them obsess over her wealth the way those who don't like her do.

[OBenario4]

70. I believe artists are more than that.

Artists send messages and are models for millions.

And I don't like the messages she sends. I don't like the idea of using progressive activism to sell products and get richer. I don't like the hyper-sexualization and objetification of women in almost all of her videoclips. I don't like her ostentation and the whole "I'm powerful cause I'm rich" thing.

I don't think she has real progressive messages. I think she's more of the same.

[JI7]

71. Then maybe the problem is your views of progressivism

I know there are some who obsess over celebs but that's a whole other thing and has little to do with politics.

[OBenario4]

72. I don't think so.

Lauryn Hill is a great artist, for example. Love her songs, like her attitude, like the respect she shows towards black women and women in general, l like her anti-consumerism position, etc.

Lauryn Hill has suffered several attacks by mainstream media. Too bad identitarian movements don't defend her as much as they do with Beyonce.

[JI7]

73. Why didn't you defend her instead of focusing on beyonce ?

One again it looks like the problem is how you view progressivism.

[BainsBane]

88. And Sarandon?

Still waiting for your comments on her.

Seems to me your progressive messaging is more of the past.

[BainsBane]

89. "Objectification of women"

Interesting. And what are your views on porn? Or is it only "objectification" when women are in charge of their own bodies?

[OBenario4]

92. I think violent porn should be outlawed.

And porn industry should be strictly regulated in general.

[BainsBane]

93. Well, you should post an OP about that

It would be interesting.

[BainsBane]

84. How about Sarandon?

Buy enough Loreal products from her and the revolution will be televised?

What message do you think Beyonce is sending about political activism? Is it because she donates to caucuses and protesters without their knowledge rather than their inserting herself in the middle of protests for her own publicity? Is it because she doesn't talk to a Civil Rights and union LEGEND like Dolores Huerta as the help, repeating a truly idiotic recitation of immigration policy, as though it was the first Huerta had ever thought about the issue? Is that where Beyonce falls short? Or is it that you don't like that Beyonce supports Democrats?


Beyonce didn't say people can be empowered by buying $90 million dollar mansions. That's your reaction--your anger-- to the fact she bought an expensive home. Yet not a word about Sarandon. I wonder why? I wonder why enormous hands in the wealth of some generates no criticism and is even defended, while you can't even think about the point of this thread without pronouncing why you don't like her.

Yeah, it sucks that a black woman has more than you. There are the demographic with the lowest average incomes of anyone in the nation, about 1/10 of the average white man. But Beyonce is rich. The world has been turned upside down. And all around we hear demands to right the social order back to its proper balance, back to the 1950s when white men didn't have to suffer the indignity of knowing no even one black woman anywhere had more than they did.

This is one of the many reasons why I believe exactly none of the rhetoric about "equality."

[NurseJackie]

87. Brilliant. Thank you...

[Liberallover976]

68. The system

How would you change the system, to battle inequality?

[JI7]

74. Its interesting one of those going after beyonce brought up cuba as what we should be like

Since black cubans are far less equal.

[BainsBane]

76. Was that same someone one of Sarandon's defenders?

[OBenario4]

77. I didn't say Cuba is what you should be like.

I said Cuba made great advances after reforming its capitalist system.

Black Cubans seem to be better nowadays than it the old times when Cuba was just a miserable brothel for rich white Americans to go on vacations.

And, yes, Susan Sarandon is overpaid as well. Any media celebrity is.

[stonecutter357]

78. K&R

[Oubaas]

80. Being Retired Military...

Being retired military, I've always been amused by the fact that I could have made a lot more money pretending to do the things that I had to do during my career than I made by really doing them. I should have been an actor. But I digress.

I'm not bothered in the least by Beyonce buying a fancy house. She has talent, she used it to her best advantage, just as anyone would have done if the opportunity presented itself, and she has reaped the rewards. That's fine.

The rich people who bother me are the ones who use their money to afflict the rest of us with their wrongheaded ideas and and to deny us a voice in the national political process.

I find it sort of weird that of the long list of rich people out there, Beyonce, being a woman and a person of color, was singled out for criticism. Surely, there's a huge supply of candidates more worthy of ire?

[BainsBane]

81. Before Beyonce it was Oprah

Another Democratic black woman.

[treestar]

83. She's not singled out, it is just her turn

because she made it to the news this week. But you are right, it's the ones who want power due to their wealth that are more harmful. The ones who use it to get influence in our system.

[BainsBane]

86. Still waiting for examples of threads where white people

and white men in particular had their turn. Feel free to provide them at anytime.

[SaschaHM]

82. I love how your point was just proven by another post. nt.

[ismnotwasm]

85. Thank you!

I'm sick of this shit

[BainsBane]

91. There is new one

Beyonce's videos "objectify women."

[OBenario4]

94. Mainstream media, in general, does.

But in pop music objetification is obvious. And, yes, Beyonce has her share in that.

[BainsBane]

95. May I ask your gender?

[OBenario4]

96. Yep. I'm a woman. n/t

[BainsBane]

97. While I share some of your concerns about porn and objectification

I don't think that's what is happening in Beyonce videos. You may be uncomfortable with her expression of sexuality, but that is not the same as her treating herself as an object for the male gaze. A few years ago, DU had a number of discussions about porn and objectification of women, which revealed a very strong libertarian strand among posters on such issues.

That, however, is a separate point from this discussion about why we see such outrage toward wealth of women of color but not other rich people. And you still have not addressed my questions to you about Susan Sarandon.

We all like and dislike different celebrities for a variety of reasons. What is germane here how discussions of those celebrities relate to ideas of inequality, class, and race. I see far too much inconsistency, too many double-standards. Frankly, double standards have become so common in so many political discussions, that I have come to the conclusion that the overriding principle being promoted is that all people are not created equal.

[Warren DeMontague]

99. I would recommend googling Beyonce's "partition" video

I would link to it, but I know how upset some people here get, around human sexuality.


Anyway, anyone who thinks Beyonce is somehow gonna be an ally in the Santorum/Dines/Utah State Legislature war on consenting adult sexuality and visual representations thereof, is clearly mistaken.

[BainsBane]

100. You that bored today?

Then by all means, go start your own OP to stir up shit in.

[Warren DeMontague]

101. You seem tense

Sorry if objective reality continues to not behave itself, according to your preferred narratives.

[Warren DeMontague]

98. Some people want to remove all displays of sex and sexuality from media.

Like Gail Dines, who helpfully provided language used in the 2016 GOP platform.


However, they're a minority, and they've clearly lost that battle.

[ismnotwasm]

102. You know what I want?

A level playing field when it comes to sexuality, particularly when it transacts gender, race and culture. One of the things I find compelling about the Trans movement, is contrary to expectations it follows perscribed gender roles/appearances to the point of visual identification only. Identifying as a particular gender is more than appearance, and the trans community understands this on the most intimate level, while acknowledging how tied we are to visual portrayals. I believe they are an important factor in helping society move forward from the male-gaze dominant potrayels of sex. I'm seeing more and more stories in all kinds of media that strike out away from the male gaze, and this sets us free to express sexually in any number of ways. That level playing field won't happen in my life time, but we are finally headed in a good direction as long as we keep Republicans and dedicated sexists from fucking every up.

[Warren DeMontague]

104. And isn't it interesting

that the same recent decades that have seen this dreaded alleged "pornification" of popular media, less repression and more openness around explicit visual representation of sex-- have also seen a sea change in public tolerance and openess around both orientation AND gender.


Hmmmm.

I agree with you, by the way. I'm all for broader and greater expression for everyone, from every perspective.

The perspective I don't agree with is the one that wants to shut down or censor consenting adult behavior.

[OBenario4]

107. Really? Funny, cause I see the opposite.

Objetification has never been so obvious as it is now.

Porn has never been so violent and degrading towards women.

Misogyny / children sexualization are on the rise.

Violence against women is rising in most countries.

Patriarchy and sexism are now openly defended.

[Warren DeMontague]

111. Tolerance for things like LGBT marriage equality are at an all time high.

That's an objective statistical -pollable- fact.

Your observations, by contrast, are subjective opinion.

[OBenario4]

113. But I'm not talking about LGBT.

I'm talking about violence against women.

And all statistics show it's on the rise, since it at least the last two decades, in most part of the planet.

[Warren DeMontague]

114. Really? You have a graph or other statistical data on that?

Because generally violence is down, violent crime is down, certainly in this country.

That, again, statistical fact.

Now, it's meaningless- to my mind- to talk about the supposed "impact" of, say, internet porn or beyonce videos on a society like Saudi Arabia, with heavy censorship.

But in the Western World, again, violent crime has decreased. Certainly in the US. To my mind, that's directly related to an aging population, however, this idea that consenting adults being able to watch other consenting adults fuck on the internet was gonna spawn some spasm of violence; that existed in Andrea Dworkin's head and nowhere else. It simply hasn't been borne out.

Your other points- like "now patriarchy is openly defended"- shit, 50 years ago it wasn't even talked about.

[OBenario4]

115. In Latin America, which is part of the Western World, it has been on the rise

https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Americas/2012/1120/Violence-against-women-in-Latin-America-Is-it-getting-worse

In some countries violence against women is far worse today, from a spike in femicides – the gender-based killing of women – in places like El Salvador and Honduras, where the drug war has become deadlier, to the disturbing trend of acid attacks against women in Colombia. In light of the Nov. 25 United Nations International Day for the Elimination of Violence Against Women, this uptick leaves many questioning what can be done.

(...)

Femicides in Mexico, Guatemala, Honduras, and El Salvador have all shot up in recent years, registering some of the highest rates in the world. The latter has seen the biggest spike in femicide in Latin America, with 637 women murdered in 2011, almost quadruple the rate from a decade ago, says Silvia Juarez, who heads the violence against women program for the Organization of Salvadoran Women for Peace.

In 2009, Mexico recorded its highest number of femicides since 1985, recording 1,858 deaths, according to a UN report.

"We have documented an alarming growth of femicide in the country," says Jose Martinez Cruz, the head of a human rights organization in the state of Morelos in central Mexico.

[Warren DeMontague]

116. Latin America is, sadly, experiencing terrible violence across the board.

But that's due to the drug war, not internet porn.

[OBenario4]

117. No, I do think internet porn and media as a whole is part of that.

I live in Latin America, I've seen the change in male mindset that pornfication of society has brought.

[Warren DeMontague]

118. Again, subjective interpretation.

Neither of us is going to be able to prove our point, however, it seems patently obvious that the violence in Latin America in recent years is tied directly to the drug trade, prohibition and the large sums of money attached.

If "pornification" leads to violence, why is violent crime in the US down?

[OBenario4]

119. Violence in general, maybe.

Violence against women, no.

I'm a teacher. I see in my students. I see male students saying horrible things that I wouldn't listen 10, 15, 20 years ago.

I see in the male behavior towards women in the streets.

Nothing to do with "drugs". I'm not talking about wives of drugdealers. I'm talking about middle class kids that with 10 years old have now already learned to see women as mere pieces of meat at their disposal.

[OBenario4]

120. Also...

...I'm not sure violence against women has been largely reduced in the US. I'd even bet on the opposite. But this is a subject I must research more. I do know that in Latin America as a whole it is increasing and that in several countries of Europe the same is happening. Africa, Asia too.

[Warren DeMontague]

121. If you don't have statistics, again, you have subjective opinion.

Personally, I think internet porn has as much to do with violence as pirates have to do with global warming. Although I do believe that, generally, sexual repression makes people a little nuts. (Splendor in the Grass, anyone?)


But if we're really insisting on drawing a connection, take a look at this. And remember that internet usage really came into its own, widely, right around 1994-5.



Seems fairly inescapable, from the data, to conclude that smut prevents violence.

[ismnotwasm]

109. Well of course not

And porn still sucks--pardon the pun, but the blatant racism is fouler that the objectification of women these days. But it doesn't always have to suck, it doesn't always have to be racist and sexist. Society has to move forward and grow up, so to speak and porn will follow.

Interestingly, one of my daughters took a class in Art history and learned about French art, for example, where men were depicted doing something and women were painted to be looked at. We got into a discussion about pornographers and she was thinking that the French were just the worst ever. I asked her if she had seen historical Japanese porn. She hadn't.

My point being this isn't just a western problem or idea in any way.(as you know) Objectification crosses cultures which is why it's so hard to point fingers at, identity and separate healthy expressions of sexuality from the unhealthy.

And American/western/modern racism, is a horrid disease that affects everything.

[Warren DeMontague]

112. certainly there are far more art critics, than there are artists.

same with music.

[ismnotwasm]

103. She takes hold of objectification and owns it.

I have never seen a more controlled and deliberate use of sexuality on the terms of a woman displaying it. Even Madonna was only an early trail-blazer to what Beyoncé chooses to do with her art.

[rogue emissary]

105. K & R for the evening crew.

BainsBane bringing the receipts as usual.

[Dreamer Tatum]

106. I'll tell you what my problem is with her $90MM house

...nothing. I don't really care. Anyone can have anything they can afford.

And there is where my problem is: ANYONE. Guess who that includes? Yup: even people you don't like, like Jaime Dimon (psst - not that hard to learn his name. I bet you'd call me racist and sexist if I called her 'Beeyoncy').

When the original thread about her new house and its price was posted, I'd say at least 90% plus of the posts were of the 'good for her' variety. Yet over the years on DU, there have been scores of threads on what the maximum income or wealth should be (hint: < $90MM, I assure you), how much doctors should be paid (I recall one consensus was around $75,000, believe it or not), and so forth. There have also been threads about how this hedge fund manager made this and that, and the nearly-unanimous opinion each time was (a) they should be taxed at 99% or whatever, or (b) they should be tossed in prison for earning money, and such like.

I thought those threads were stupid, because I happen to agree with you: Beyonce and her husband (by the way, ever look at any of his song lyrics, and ask yourself how many of those $90 million bills were earned spewing sexist messages? Argument for another day.) are entitled to whatever they can afford. MY issue comes when I sense a double standard, viz., that they are welcome to a $90MM house with no scorn directed toward them because she is a Democrat, black, and female. I have searched for threads congratulating people not named Beyonce for buying houses that cost about 300 times that of most very nice homes, and I can't find them. If it seems like I'm cherrypicking, go back and consider the prevailing DU attitudes about the tax avoidance strategies of John Kerry (yacht) and Al Gore (sale of his network).

If Beyonce and husband earned her money in the music biz, and can spend it as she wishes, you know who else did, and you know who else is similarly entitled? Any other musician or performer who has views or characteristics you don't like. Likewise investors, inventors, athletes, and so forth. I'm fine with the inconsistency: I wish good things for people whom I like and admire, and I wish ill on those I disregard. It's just a little tedious to see that simple rationale ignored over the acceptance of a $90 MILLION HOUSE, for Heaven's sake.

May they live in and enjoy the house in good health.

[JI7]

108. Lol. Black privilege. The issue of taxation has nothing to do with that

Many who defend beyonce also think she should pay higher taxes .

Do the hypocrisy comes from you when you got upset that a black woman had wealth.

The thread wasn't started to congratulate her. It was to attack her.

[Dreamer Tatum]

110. It's a nuanced position

so I understand your reply.

I'm glad she has wealth. My post is about inconsistency, not race or gender.

[Warren DeMontague]

122. It's a pretty nice house. Looks to be done in a sort of Frank Lloyd Wright style.

I think people are just jealous, really.

[betsuni]

125. No, except for being horizontal, it's the exact oppostie of FLW.

FLW's architecture is organic, compact, uses space well.

[Warren DeMontague]

126. I'm not an architecture expert, I just play one on tv.

Still, the 7 pools are pretty badass.