General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWhat the fuck is going on with this anti-choice shit? What bizarro world have I stepped in to?
There is zero compromise on this issue. I don't tolerate anti-civil rights views when they are directed at minorities and I don't tolerate them when they are directed at women.
This shit is off the rails. Let me be clear: Fuck anyone that is anti-choice, be they Democrat or Republican or Independent. Zero tolerance. Zero debate. Zero acceptance.
I have a mother. I have a wife. I have a sister. I have 2 daughters. I will go to war against anyone fucking with their rights.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)ExciteBike66
(2,340 posts)Let's elect racists and misogynists so long as they call themselves "Democrats"...
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)I would also bet solid $$ that some anti-Semites voted for Bernie Sanders, and that some people with anti-Mormon beliefs voted for Mitt Romney.
Political parties have two jobs--winning elections and enacting policies after winning elections.
The Democratic Party is at its weakest point in almost a century. We don't have the luxury of telling voters they're not welcome.
ExciteBike66
(2,340 posts)not racist voters.
I welcome racists and anti-choice folks to vote for Democrats. I do not welcome racists and anti-choice folks to run for election as Democrats.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)just give up?
6000eliot
(5,643 posts)I don not fucking care if we lose EVERY ELECTION for the next hundred years. NO ANTI-CHOICE candidate will ever get my support or my vote. This is not negotiable.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)flibbitygiblets
(7,220 posts)We stand for women's rights. That's not negotiable.
6000eliot
(5,643 posts)I can't believe that some people who call themselves progressive think that there is an argument to be had on the subject. There is none.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)and those whose survival depends on our losing in 2016 and 2020. Suggest checking noses for a ring, and if it's there removing it.
niyad
(113,275 posts)boston bean
(36,221 posts)was very wrong.
I personally feel betrayed. Even though we do not personally know one another.
ExciteBike66
(2,340 posts)now you have enlarged that to not winning "any elections".
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)then they're on the road to irrelevance.
There's very little difference between having 200 votes in the House and having zero.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)twice as many votes from pro-choice voters. It's stupid and pointless.
Besides, most anti-choice voters wouldn't vote for a democrat anyway. This is the dumbest thing I have ever heard.
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)Many of them often said "you can't expect perfect" when talking about Hillary Clinton... and now they expect perfection. Odd.
RKP5637
(67,105 posts)Brainstormy
(2,380 posts)What is a "win" worth if it violates an absolute core principle? It's not negotiable for me either!
idahoblue
(377 posts)Help freedom of choice?
Pro-life is not the same as anti choice. I will support a candidate who claims to be prolife who will fight for the environment, against the death penalty, the First Amendment, who is anti war, pro education and finding of PP and health care for all.
Bettie
(16,095 posts)who is a white supremacist?
Someone who believes that conversion therapy is the only solution for "the gays"?
Once we throw women's rights under the bus, who is next?
We're to just jettison all of our values in the interest of getting people elected who don't believe that women are human beings with rights?
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)as compromising on those issues when it comes to a legislative agenda.
Bettie
(16,095 posts)DOES compromise the legislative agenda when they vote with the opposition on their pet issues.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)If Democrats control Congress, then anti-choice legislation never gets a vote. House leadership just kills it.
mazzarro
(3,450 posts)Then what? We start fighting the internal battle of who controls the party?
ExciteBike66
(2,340 posts)The person you are describing is not a Democrat, should never be a Democrat. If some anti-choice idiot wants to run on a Democratic platform (except for abortion), let the run as an independent. They will still likely caucus with Dems on all the other issues.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)run as a Republican.
25% of Democrats are not pro-choice. If you tell them they're not welcome, you pretty much guarantee Paul Ryan (or someone worse) will run the House for the next 50 years.
ExciteBike66
(2,340 posts)If the person was someone you wanted to have elected, then if they get elected as a Republican what difference is it to you?
25% of Dems can be whatever they want to be. If they are running for office and want my vote and support they better be either pro-choice or only passively anti-abortion (i.e. believe in no abortion, but do not vote that way, ever).
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)ExciteBike66
(2,340 posts)that is what this whole argument has been about for the past few days: which candidates would you or would you not support?
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)support on being pro-choice.
ExciteBike66
(2,340 posts)and my point is that I disagree with the DCCC here. I do not give money to the DCCC anyway, so there is little I can do to show my distaste.
lakeguy
(1,640 posts)sounds like a BS lie to me...
https://thinkprogress.org/pro-choice-america-majority-d8963029ae45/
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)and here:
http://big.assets.huffingtonpost.com/tabsHPAbortion20170501.pdf
and here:
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/07/07/on-abortion-persistent-divides-between-and-within-the-two-parties-2/
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)the Trumpcare bills that gutted Medicaid and defended Planned Parenthood.
The Republican Senators from their states voted to gut Medicaid and defund Planned Parenthood.
People who can't see a significant difference between Manchin and Capito have lost the plot.
Fla Dem
(23,654 posts)We don't need to waste time/money supporting candidates who espouse anti-choice positions because they're in a deep red district. It's against our position and if a district is that deep red they wouldn't win anyway.
xxqqqzme
(14,887 posts)Party without women. The party has conveniently tossed that information aside.
Igel
(35,300 posts)You work with the mass-murdering Stalin instead of being defeated by Hitler.
Since we like extremes, it's not inappropriate an analogy.
ExciteBike66
(2,340 posts)if "mass-murdering Stalin" were "mass-murdering" Americans, we would probably not work with him regardless of the existence of Hitler.
We are talking about electing people who would actively restrict women's rights here, now, in America. We are not talking about working with other world leaders who have no power to take away our rights.
SusanaMontana41
(3,233 posts)I could never vote for a candidate who is anti-choice. It's a nonstarter.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)republican-lite. We don't stand up for our principles ENOUGH! This is not the time to back down, but become more firmly entrenched in the core values of our party and that includes the right to choose.
Who the hell are all these people on this board lately anyway? I can't believe what I am hearing!
SusanaMontana41
(3,233 posts)Third Way killed the Party of Roosevelt.
RKP5637
(67,105 posts)opposition. That, is why the democratic party is ever moving rightward. Way back the democratic party was tough and stood its ground. The party is far different today.
rock
(13,218 posts)demigoddess
(6,640 posts)I heard about this and it is not a good idea.
atreides1
(16,076 posts)And how exactly does putting anti-choice Democrats into office, protect the rights of women?
MrsCoffee
(5,801 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Without anti-choice Democrats in Congress, Nancy Pelosi would never have been Speaker.
Loki Liesmith
(4,602 posts)AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Fuck winning if that's what it entails.
a la izquierda
(11,791 posts)Fuck these apologists with a rusty pike and fuck "Democrats" who "may" support women's rights, if it's convenient for them.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Statement A: we should run candidates who are competitive in their districts, even if that means those candidates won't agree with the mainstream party on some core issues
Statement B: the entire party should move to the right and abandon our core issues in order to win votes
(A) and (B) are much, much different propositions.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)'Well, the Democrats voted for it too' is political cover that actually resonates with a lot of America.
I am unwilling to see this issue cast in the national news as even having a single Democratic Party supporter. Not one.
Every single vote is a signal. Every time we compromise on a core party plank, we are sending a message to OTHER districts, other states.
Not on my watch. Not with my sanction.
This is a core principle upon which I will not compromise.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)One way to do that is to signal to a beleaguered base that you actually DO have a spine/principles.
What's the purpose of a party if we are supplanted in other districts when Republicans realize they can win center-left seats on this issue by maybe supporting pro-life democratic candidates, and then finally deliver to their base on banning abortion?
What's the purpose of a party if we lose turnout because we reneged on our core values? You don't think that's a weapon that will be gleefully used against us?
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Not only are there not enough members of our base, we're concentrated in urban areas.
That is not how Congress works. It doesn't matter whether a majority are anti-choice if the House leadership don't let anti-choice legislation reach the floor.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)I think I can safely assume, any member of the house that would vote to ban abortion, would also sign a discharge petition to bring the legislation to the floor regardless of what the house leadership says.
There's always a check. Always a balance. Always a workaround.
For this reason alone (and there are others) it is not safe to support a pro-life Democratic candidate. Sorry.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)How many anti-abortion discharge petitions happened when Pelosi was Speaker?
Discharge petitions NEVER succeed.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)"563 discharge petitions were filed between 1931 and 2003, of which only 47 obtained the required majority of signatures. The House voted for discharge 26 times and passed 19 of the measures, but only two have become law.[3] However, the threat of a discharge petition has caused the leadership to relent several times; such petitions are dropped only because the leadership allowed the bill to move forward, rendering the petition superfluous. Overall, either the petition was completed or else the measure made it to the floor by other means in 16 percent of cases.[3]"
Abortion is the kind of landmark issue that can indeed make it through that process.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)It was the only one since 1995.
http://conginst.org/2015/10/15/the-discharge-petition-bipartisan-effort-might-revive-the-ex-im-bank/
To say that there's a real chance of a tactic working when it has happened zero times in the past 14 years and only once in the past 22 is absurd.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)These people coupled defunding planned parenthood and repealing the ACA as recently as July.
Rand Paul was using the threat of discharge petition to move defunding PP forward in the Senate 2 sessions ago.
These people WILL NOT STOP TRYING. We cannot afford to relax our stance on this issue. They will end-run/rules game/anything. Anything, no shame, no quarter. They are in it to win on this issue.
We do not improve our position by accepting more Democratic candidates into our ranks with no commitment to this issue. We certainly send the wrong damn message to women nation-wide when it happens.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Also, how'd that turn out for the Republicans? They couldn't even defund PP despite controlling both houses of Congress.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Next time they might. They're working the 'PP performs abortions' angle to get the votes. How's that going to play for a pro-life Democrat?
I think it plays out as one of those bi-partisan moments where we shit our pants in terror, and millions of women across the nation stay home in droves next election because WE LET THEM DOWN AS WELL, and WE HAVE NO EXCUSE.
'Oh we neeeeded that seat. We sold you out because we neeeeeded it nationally.'
I don't need it that bad. I won't sell them out. I will die politically defending that hill if necessary. If we slip and they take advantage, real people will really die. It'll be women who are dying, and they'll know we failed them.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)but in the general election.
Dividing ourselves over abortion means the rabidly anti-abortion party gains ground.
We do not disagree on goals, but rather on strategy and tactics.
lapucelle
(18,252 posts)You also need to be more precise in statement A.
"We should run candidates who are competitive in their districts, even if that means those candidates won't agree with the mainstream party on this core issue."
Nothing other than this particular right seems to be on the table.
Corvo Bianco
(1,148 posts)popular with evangelicals.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)they are not on your side in that fight.
Corvo Bianco
(1,148 posts)my own body are, if your "effective" approach is that we need to let it slide a little, the last thing I'd ever do is trust you to fight for me. And the second to last thing I would ever do is vote for you.
Something every candidate needs to seriously think about before taking this passivity on women's rights approach.
MFM008
(19,806 posts)Don't vote pro choice in Congress.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)If we have a majority, anti-choice bills never reach the floor
mcar
(42,307 posts)if he runs as a Democrat?
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Note, btw, that FDR presided over a coalition of African-Americans and white supremacists.
If coalitions are comfortable, they're (a) too small and (b) probably not a coalition
dragonfly301
(399 posts)Pro life/anti single payer Republican congressman from Miami has a fundraiser hosted by Democrats. http://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/345204-miami-congressman-gets-democratic-support-for-re-election-bid
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)Fuck any and every person who prioritizes a majority- useless without ideological unity- over my ability to stay alive.
NNadir
(33,514 posts)...what they defined as their "right" - to "own" other human beings = gave a virulent racist with tiny hands and an even tinier mind the "right" to live in a house built by slaves.
It is stupid for a majority to kiss the asses of a minority because a minority unjustly holds power.
Try thinking. It works.
NastyRiffraff
(12,448 posts)on this board. But thank you for saying it.
ghostsinthemachine
(3,569 posts)Stand FOR SOMETHING. One GIANT STEP rightward, AGAIN.
CrispyQ
(36,460 posts)They should work harder & smarter, not capitulate on core values to get some low hanging fruit. I was told the other day, when I suggested that the dem party court the non-voters instead of the anti-choice voters, "Tapping into the mass of unregistered voters is fool's gold." Here. - on DU. Dis GOTV but support ditching women's rights as a litmus test.
SusanaMontana41
(3,233 posts)This is not the way to grow a party that desperately needs young blood.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)We're not going to be able to "temporarily" embrace this. Once that critter is loose, you'll play hell trying to round it back up and put it back in the corral. We shouldn't go there. Women's rights ought to be a foundational, unwaivering, unalienable position.
DLevine
(1,788 posts)Raster
(20,998 posts)There is no bargaining. There are no concessions. Zero tolerance. Zero debate. Zero acceptance.
H2O Man
(73,536 posts)Thank you.
lindysalsagal
(20,678 posts)Speculative B.S.
My rights are not for sale.
Don't like abortion? Don't. Have. One.
LexVegas
(6,059 posts)Crazy.
canetoad
(17,152 posts)K&R
stonecutter357
(12,695 posts)MoonRiver
(36,926 posts)VaBchTgerLily
(231 posts)samnsara
(17,622 posts)NRaleighLiberal
(60,014 posts)Ms. Toad
(34,066 posts)He was expressly against the rights of the LGBT community, and invited one of the most rabid anti-gay preachers to share the podium with him.
When I criticized him for his stand on this issue, even though I voted for him and worked election protection duty on the day of the election, I was told to shut up and stop whining about my special pony.
So, unless you refused to vote for him on principle, your insistence that there is zero compromise on this issue is a bit hypocritical.
That said, whenever there is a pro-choice Democrat I will support that person over an antichoice Democrat. But I am not going to sit the election out, or vote for the Republican candidate over a single issue - any more than I refused to vote for Barack Obama when he expressly declared that my marriage did not exist, and should not be legally recognized.
LostOne4Ever
(9,288 posts)We all knew it was an act on his part and once elected he would change his tune.
Ms. Toad
(34,066 posts)He made a real transition near the end of his first term. As an LGBT individual I'm pretty good at recognizing when someone is truly welcoming, and when it is an act. In addition, I know a member of his administration who - among others - was instrumental in his transition from, "I know the correct position- but Damn, this makes me uncomfortable," to truly welcoming and being comfortable advocating for LGBT individuals.
Aside from whether it was real or not - would you accept the same from someone pretending to be anti-choice to get votes?
LostOne4Ever
(9,288 posts)http://www.windycitymediagroup.com/gay/lesbian/news/photospreadthumbs.php?APUB=wct&ADATE=2009-01-14&AGALLERY=obama
For the record, I would have preferred a candidate who was openly gay marriage back then. And I will accept whatever I have to if it advances civil rights and liberties. The cause is more important to me than the messenger. LGBTQ rights, abortion rights, right to die, etc.
Ms. Toad
(34,066 posts)If so, it is no different than the current debate - in which many of us are no more willing to use abortion as a litmus test than we have been to use LGBT rights in the past. Yes - criticize the wrong-headed position, but when push comes to shove, vote for (and even work for) the most progressive candidate all around, despite their bad stand on one issue.
LostOne4Ever
(9,288 posts)But I would fight like hell to keep such a person from winning the primary. I would do whatever I could to see that Any democrat who is anti-lgbtq rights or anti abortion rights right lose the primary to a democrats who supports such positions.
Again my ultimate litmus test is whatever progresses the causes I believe in. I check my ego in at the door.
Ms. Toad
(34,066 posts)I was primarily addressing the OP, who was suggesting it was outrageous to support or vote for a candidate with whom you disagree on an issue of civil rights of any sort.
I don't believe we were that pure in 2008, or that we can afford to be that pure now.
LostOne4Ever
(9,288 posts)Though I always push for the candidate who does share my view on civil rights in the primary. I reject the idea of not voting for those people because they have no chance of winning because of this or that issue.
I feel that had the Democratic Party had fought for SSM then, the way they do now that the country would have come around sooner. And I deeply fear that democratic politicians are going to throw abortion rights and trans rights under the bus if we let them.
I feel we need to keep the pressure on them so that they can't do that.
Ms. Toad
(34,066 posts)and why I did not vote for Obama in the primary.
As to coming around sooner - I don't think it would have mattered. The Democratic party was bringing up the rear on same gender marriage - endorsing it only after the tide had turned. It just took time for people in places like Massachussets, where the world didn't end; and LGBT people like me who were willing and able to be out (me, for 36 years). As frustrating as it was,marriage was gentler - and more lasting - as a recognition of a societal fait accomplis. Although there have been a few vocal opponents, generally there's barely been a whimper. But as to general rights, we're not entirely there yet. Discrimination is still legal in many parts of the country - just not marriage discrimination. And you're right about trans rights. I don't think politicians are going to throw abortion rights under the bus (absent isolated politicians with personal beliefs they can't set aside), but trans people are definitely subject to being thrown under the bus. I don't think any version of ENDA has included trans rights, for example.
Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)He evolved, as he put it, on gay marriage, coming to thoroughly and enthusiastically support it.
boston bean
(36,221 posts)voices down, who speak of other rights.
It's a tactic that serves neither group any good.
I've had it with that bullshit.
Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)LostOne4Ever
(9,288 posts)" Do you support the Marriage Resolution, a statement of support for the right of same gender individuals to marry."
He said he would support such a resolution.
http://www.windycitymediagroup.com/gay/lesbian/news/photospreadthumbs.php?APUB=wct&ADATE=2009-01-14&AGALLERY=obama
Ms. Toad
(34,066 posts)While I agree he ultimately came around, based on my sense of where his heart was in 2008 - and on the experience of a member of the LGBT community working in his administration - 1996 was more likely an act than 2008.
There was a true change in his relationship with LGBT people near the end of his first term - based on his own statements, my experience of listening to him talking about LGBT people, and my conversations with the LGBT friend in his administration. So people who voted for him in 2008 (including me) voted against the right of LGBT people to marry - because that was his expressly stated position (as well - from my perspective - his true position on the matter).
LostOne4Ever
(9,288 posts)He didn't have much to lose then. However, I doubt there is any true way to know for sure. I believed back then it was an act and felt vindicated when he went back to supporting it.
But, I do get voting for people who opposed such positions. But, I can't bring myself to do so when there are viable alternatives.
Ms. Toad
(34,066 posts)So we're talking about the same kind of position.
ExciteBike66
(2,340 posts)but I bet that if Congress had put a bill legalizing gay marriage on Obama's desk in 2009, he would have signed it.
Ms. Toad
(34,066 posts)He had not moved personally yet, and he was still very much in the "work with my enemies" posture that led him to invite the vile pastor to share the stage with him at his inauguration in early 2009.
ExciteBike66
(2,340 posts)"He had not moved personally yet, and he was still very much in the "work with my enemies" posture that led him to invite the vile pastor to share the stage with him at his inauguration in early 2009."
Yes, but if the Dem Congress had already passed the bill, I doubt he could have resisted signing it. I mean, it was still 3 whole years before the next election season, and think of the damage he would do to his own party if he vetoed their bill.
We can disagree though, this is all just hypothetical. I think that regardless of what Obama said in public about being against gay marriage, he would not have stood in the way if Congress had sent him this bill.
WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)Angry Dragon
(36,693 posts)MineralMan
(146,288 posts)And he will actively vote for measures to restrict or ban reproductive choices. DFLers in MN have been trying to win that district for quite some time. Before Emmer, we had Michele "crazy-eyes" Bachmann in that seat. We're still trying. In 2018, we'll try again. I don't know who's going to run against Emmer yet, but I'll be working to help that candidate win, as long as he or she is a Democrat.
In my own district, MN CD-4, it would be impossible for anyone to win who wasn't 100% pro-choice. That is not the case in Emmer's district. However, trying to flip that district has proven to be a tough job. It's solidly in the hands of the Republicans at this point. If we can break that pattern, we might be able to make progress toward making it a Democratic district.
Who will run on the DFL ticket in 2018? I don't know. It's going to be up to the DFLers in that district, as always. I don't vote there. I don't live there. However, I will do GOTV in that district for the Democratic candidate. Period. If you knew Tom Emmer, you'd understand exactly why. He votes against progress at every opportunity and on every issue. We need desperately to flip MN CD-6.
Progressive dog
(6,900 posts)We already have a party that opposes choice.
StevieM
(10,500 posts)it was unclear as to whether Hillary Clinton would appoint pro-choice judges. People on the left were openly stating that HRC might not appoint the same types of judges that Bill Clinton and Barack Obama appointed. And a lot of people believed them.
Mountain Mule
(1,002 posts)to choose what happens to their own bodies, they are not open minded enough to be a democrat. We cannot become the party of Trump Lite in a doomed attempt to win more votes. Look at the governor of W. Virginia - an individual who was republican then turned democrat just long enough to raid the DNC war chest and then turned republican again. I am very skeptical about putting a right to lifer up as a candidate. Who's to say they wouldn't turn into a trojan horse just like that W. Virginia governor?
we can do it
(12,184 posts)broadcaster90210
(333 posts)niyad
(113,275 posts)msdogi
(430 posts)This is not a gray area, a woman has the right to make her own decisions, there is nothing more to discuss. Not supporting that position would make a candidate a republican.
angrychair
(8,697 posts)The DCCC proposal to court anti-choice candidates has created a big dust up here and everywhere else.
Why do we continue to have this debate?
If you think we should court anti-choice candidates I ask you this question: what rights are negotiable to you? What other rights are you willing to give up?
LGBT rights?
Global warming?
Women's right to vote?
PoC voting rights?
If any or all seem like a ridiculous question than I ask another question:
Why are they ridiculous but a women's basic human rights negotiable?
My point is that it cannot just be about getting a person that claims to be a Democrat but personally does not support basic human rights for everyone, elected to office.
Most importantly, It is not a partisan issue. Supporting basic human rights, like a women's ability to obtain reproductive healthcare or an LGBT person's ability to marry who they love, does not make someone a "Democrat" it makes them a human being.
nolabear
(41,960 posts)Women have ended pregnancies since women have been getting pregnant. The only way to stop it is to chain them up and force them. And that's a simple fact.
hamsterjill
(15,220 posts)No compromise on choice. Nunca. Zilch. Nada.
dlk
(11,560 posts)Supporting anti-choice candidates isn't a winning strategy for Democrats or for women. Aren't women marginalized enough? Perhaps it's time to support candidates who want the government to regulate and control the reproductive organs of all American men. It would make about as much sense.
UtahLib
(3,179 posts)wryter2000
(46,039 posts)Not Ruth
(3,613 posts)Yes, the candidate evolved in the car to the rally, give her another minute before she steps to the podium, she is still evolving....,
DefenseLawyer
(11,101 posts)The majority party selects the Speaker of the House. The Speaker of the House determines what legislation is brought to the floor for a vote. Anyone that is elected as a Democrat is going to contribute the total number of votes that elect the Speaker. Regardless of that particular member's stance on any issue, he or she isn't going to be able to advance any legislation without the approval of the leadership, so it really doesn't matter what his or her stance is on any particular issue. Thus, if you are in a situation in a district where you have a viable candidate as a Democrat that is anti-choice and a Republican that is also anti-choice, you are going to end up the an anti choice representative. However, one of them with vote for Nancy Pelosi as Speaker and one that will vote for Paul Ryan. At the end of the day that's the only vote that matters. It seems like a no-brainer to me.
PoliticAverse
(26,366 posts)Pantagruel
(2,580 posts)It's two parts, primary and general election.
Totally and rabidly support choice candidates in the primary BUT
if you can't nominate a choice candidate it's logical and moral to support the lesser of two evils, Dem over GOP in the General election.
We got Dubya and maybe Trump for our rigidity to doctrine, let's not do it again.
Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)In any case, abortion is legal. So I would expect people, esp. judges, to recognize and respect the law.
But that's different from personally believing abortion is not right for her, for whatever reason. That's what choice is about. But if someone wants to overturn Roe v Wade, they are in the wrong party.
Egnever
(21,506 posts)Must of us understand nuance.
BannonsLiver
(16,370 posts)Orsino
(37,428 posts)There's not a lot of money in sticking up for human right. Not big political money, anyway.
DonCoquixote
(13,616 posts)especially as there is a genuine need to have all sorts of people, and because of then genuine lemming like fungicidal tendencies of the far left, but..the truth is, when you let Blue Dogs define what it is left, they will move the border to the point where even Ronnie Ray Gun would not feel comfortable. Simply put, now the Blue Dogs do not even fell they have to pay lip service to women, especially as they, in their own way, resented Hillary as much as any "bernieBro."
GeorgeGist
(25,319 posts)Constitutional rights; as long as Dem's win.
Willie Pep
(841 posts)I am surprised at the reactions to the news about the DCCC chairman saying there won't be a litmus test on abortion. Pro-life Democrats are nothing new. We had plenty of them in Congress in 2006 and 2008 and I don't recall there being this level of anger about it. You could also argue that reproductive rights were safer even with these pro-life Democrats than they are now with the Republicans in control of every level of government.
How many people here complaining about the DCCC were complaining about left-wing "purity pony" types refusing to vote for Clinton because they thought she was too hawkish or too right-wing on economics? To some people those are human rights issues just like abortion. But they were told (rightly, in my opinion) that on balance Clinton would better serve their interests than Trump so it made strategic sense to vote for Clinton even if you disliked some of her stances on some issues. I think this is a comparable situation.
Dark n Stormy Knight
(9,760 posts)Why is it OK to send our young men and women into harm's way to protect what is usually mostly the interests of the corporations and the wealthy? Why is OK to deprive the living of healthcare and decent living conditions?
But a women must not fail to sustain and deliver a fetus?
Fuck that BS!
Create a world that truly values and honors the living, and not just the "beautiful" and wealthy ones, and I might have some respect for the so-called "pro-lifers."
MuseRider
(34,105 posts)crap we know what to do.
If you do not want the Democratic Party to lose because a whole shit ton of uppity women and those who agree with them will not vote for the anti choice candidate then I would say get your asses in gear and talk them out of this crazy notion. Women who have NEVER had equality legislated and have forever had their damned internal organs not to mention an entire lifetime screwed with, by the fact that somehow we can be sacrificed for votes, are damned tired of either being restricted, legislated against and treated as pawns for those mostly without ovaries.
I say fuck those who would do that. I will not vote for them.
You want to win? Tell them to stop this crap and get on with all of it. I know, it is much easier to ask us to kindly stay in that dusty old back seat always reserved for us than it is for you fight with us for what you KNOW is our right as human beings. You want to win by sacrificing us? Lovely. Does not sound like a party I want to even be loosely associated with. Democrats do not sacrifice people's lives for votes or should not anyway. Apparently a lot of them don't really care who loses except if it is them.
EDIT to add, not directed to you OP
Warpy
(111,252 posts)We have to tell those conservative farts that it most certainly is NOT.
I will point to the Green Party of NM. It was strong and growing in the 80s. Then in the early 90s, they dug up an antiabortionist to run for governor. That did it and they have never recovered, they're a joke.
Wanting to insert one's church dogma into civil law should be a disqualification for public office, period.
AgadorSparticus
(7,963 posts)certainot
(9,090 posts)blasts the country with anti choice bullshit. it pulls the whole country right 10 to 20 pts, demonizes contraception and women, and intimidates politicians. it creates the perception in many states and areas that all their constituents are anti-choice and when the issue moves into the local political realm a few jerks scream as loud as thousands.
and we let 88 major universities endorse 257 limbaugh stations with sports broadcasting while they do that.
dflprincess
(28,075 posts)Has been sliding right since Reagan was president. The further right it moves the more elections it loses. We can only hope that it will eventually figure out that Republican Lite doesn't work
No wonder it's perceived as having no message.
dsc
(52,160 posts)There are 6 anti choice Democrats in both Houses of Congress. When Reagan was around we had dozens of anti choice members of the House including the number 3 Democrat. He later became the number 2 Democrat. Al Gore ran as an openly anti choice Presidential candidate in 1988 (he came in third). Kucinich had to flip flop on abortion in 2004 to run a single issue campaign for President. The only anti choice Dems left are legacies (Casey, Lipinski) have served for a very long time (Cueller, Petersen) or accidental (Donnelly). Anti choice Democrats have all but disappeared from office. They can't win primaries except under very rare circumstances. Under Reagan we had a significant percentage of anti choice Democrats in office. Our party has moved vastly in the pro choice direction.
leftstreet
(36,106 posts)Jopin Klobe
(779 posts)... it's called "The Slippery Slope" ...
... it's a trick that's always set by "Republicans" ...
... that's always sprung on "Democrats" ...
RKP5637
(67,105 posts)Lunabell
(6,080 posts)It's more than abortion. It's about autonomy. Is it my body or the state's?
jmowreader
(50,556 posts)The three big reasons we should work to bring people to our point of view, and not bend to embrace views counter to ours:
FIRST, it demeans us to walk away from our deeply held beliefs just so we might pick up a vote here or there. The "don't kill your baby!" crowd would vote Republican even if their candidate ate a puppy on live television.
SECOND, the people who are really serious anti-choicers work their asses off to have their views be the only views anyone gets to consider. We bring anti-choicers in here and within five years there will be a huge groundswell of "we should end public funding for Planned Parenthood" on this very board. We believe in a woman's right to choose. We RUN candidates who do too. On this there can be no compromise.
and
THIRD, if we start embracing antichoice views the hard right media will declare we've finally proven the only thing we care about is votes.
We can never compromise on a woman's right to self-determination. We believe in it. The Republicans do not.
Old Vet
(2,001 posts)Ligyron
(7,629 posts)brewens
(13,579 posts)It's none of my business what any woman is being seen for medically. She should get the care she needs. If she is pregnant and does not want to have a baby, then she needs and abortion if that is what she wants. But how would I give a shit if it was like it should be and I never know about it? That includes you dudes, if you got a woman pregnant and she doesn't want anything to do with you or your baby. I guess you should have picked another woman or been a better dad prospect.
My best oldest conservative friend passed away in his 80's a couple years ago. He was strictly a small business type conservative though. We agreed on a great many things. One was that if a girl had nothing going for her, didn't want anything to do with the guy that got her pregnant, she should have her abortion, even at tax payer profit, not expense! That's right. She saves us all a shit ton of money by getting rid of the fetus! At least on the average. In fact there probably couldn't be a federal program that could run more in the black, along with free taxpayer funded contraceptives being easily available, even to minors.
So why don't pro-choice people lay that out there? You are scared shitless to even say that!
Lady Freedom Returns
(14,120 posts)However I will not vote for someone who is not pro choice. I will not vote for someone who is a begot.
I will not back off of my moral compass for a "win".
Sorry not happening.
MasonDreams
(756 posts)We the People must wake up. Maybe, just maybe, this can be a blessing in disguise. We the people, especially the 50% with wombs must take action, and at least VOTE.
PDittie
(8,322 posts)Last edited Sat Aug 5, 2017, 06:55 PM - Edit history (1)
Because in the "lesser of two evils", binary choice world we live in, you will find a handful of senators elected in 2012 who call themselves "pro-life".
... Democrats already have people in office who oppose federal funding for abortions and late-term abortion rights, or who define themselves as personally opposed to abortion.
This faction includes several senators up for re-election next year and tenuously clinging to red state turf: Sens. Joe Manchin (W.Va.), Heidi Heitkamp (N.D.), Bob Casey (Pa.) and Joe Donnelly (Ind.). Abandoning them when Democrats are desperately trying to retake control of the Senate would be political malpractice.
Bill Scher, writing at RCP
IIRC, without any one of those four, Obamacare would have been repealed last week.
FFS don't we disagree on enough things to keep us out of power already?
... Heitkamp and Casey have voted to protect funding for Planned Parenthood. Heitkamp helped filibuster a ban on abortions 20 weeks after conception. Casey, who, unlike the others, was in office at the beginning of Barack Obamas first term, voted to confirm two Supreme Court justices expected to uphold Roe v. Wade. Surely the others would if given the opportunity. The same could not be said if Republicans snatched their seats.
Abortion rights activists are getting the better of this bargain. Allowing a few marginally pro-life Democrats inside the party tent helps maximize Democratic numbers in the Senate without diluting the national partys message. A zero-tolerance policy would only shrink Democratic numbers in the chamber, weakening the partys ability to protect abortion rights and resist the rest of the Republican agenda.
Purity or winning elections? You decide.
Amimnoch
(4,558 posts)That's how many seats in the House that we need to take back in the house to have the majority.
Personally, I'm working on 1.
Just last weekend in Bellaire in Houston, James Cargas, who will be running against John Culberson yet again in 2018 had a fund raising dinner. in 2016, Texas House district 7 had one of the closest races for a Democrat contender that it has had since George HW Bush took the seat from the last Democrat that sat it in 1967. The dinner this past Sunday had twice as many paying supporters as I've ever seen at a Cargas fundraiser. James was that candidate.
Cargas is not a perfect Democrat. On abortion, I've never seen or heard his position. On my own "pony" issue of GLBT rights.. never a peep. He describes himself as a "fiscal conservative, social liberal", something that I'm not at all in line with since I'm liberal minded on both fiscal and social issues.
however, I know my district pretty well..
ANY candidate who espouses a pro choice stance WILL NOT WIN.
ANY candidate who openly supports GLBT rights WILL NOT WIN.
So why the hell do I support a candidate that is not in line with my beliefs? Because he CAN win, and he WILL vote mostly in line with the Democratic Party, and he WILL add to the numbers necessary to put Pelosi, or whomever is selected back in the speakers chair, which gives our entire party, and our platform which DOES support pro choice, and GLBT rights the steering rights of legislative power.
By all means, wherever we are able to, let's put in full down-the-board liberals and progressives into office. But in places like Texas House district 7, let's get the best that we can achieve, and get over that 218 count threshold and get our majority back.
At the end of the day there are 4 versions of a possibility with US Congress:
1. Republican Majority that is cohesive, and passes their agenda- Civil rights of all types go backwards.
2. Republican Majority that is ineffective, can't agree, and can't pass bills - Civil rights stay mostly the same, possibly some backward slippage.
3. Democrat Majority that is ineffective, can't agree, and can't pass bills - Civil rights stay mostly the same, possibly some movement forward.
4. Democrat Majority that is cohesive, and passes our agenda - Civil rights progress forward.
That last option is the goal. A great goal it is, but when the numbers aren't there to make the last goal possible, we need to compromise.. sometimes in distasteful ways, or we will end up with options 1 or 2.
MrsCoffee
(5,801 posts)If we shit all over the party platform, guess what we will get in return. Starting from a position that doesn't even give women a fighting chance is the stupidest thing this party can do and will result in massive protests. Many women will leave the party and good luck getting a majority of anything without us!
Amimnoch
(4,558 posts)The platform of the majority party is the ONLY one that gets addressed.
On this issue our platform is:
We will support sexual and reproductive health and rights around the globe. In addition to expanding the availability of affordable family planning information and contraceptive supplies, we believe that safe abortion must be part of comprehensive maternal and womens health care and included as part of Americas global health programming. Therefore, we support the repeal of harmful restrictions that obstruct womens access to health care information and services, including the global gag rule and the Helms Amendment that bars American assistance to provide safe, legal abortion throughout the developing world.
Their platform:
I'm offering NO argument that we should pursue pro life candidates, our focus should be those that are in line with our platform 100%. Accepting that some House districts will NOT support a candidate that openly supports some of our platform positions is political reality. In those districts.. and only those districts, we need to accept a lower standard to get the numbers that allows for OUR platform above to be put into bills. Else, THEIR platform is what is slipped into bills passing through congress, and that is NOT good for us.
As I said above, we need 24 more seats to boot Ryan from the House Speakers seat, and put Pelosi (or the next Democratic Party selected house leader) into the speakers seat. You show me the 24 districts that will support and elect a full progressive/liberal candidate as their representative over the Republican incumbent, and I'm totally onboard. OR we accept and get behind some less than perfect candidates. OR we just accept the continued Republican hold, and let them run with THEIR platform.
dembotoz
(16,799 posts)Nightowl
(77 posts)As a woman, mother of a woman and grandmother of two young women I will not accept this. I have been a Democrat for most of my adult life. I am now registered unaffiliated. I can not be part of a party that supports those who want to enslave women as unwilling incubators. I can never vote for someone who wants to take women back to the bad old days. Woman's freedom is too high a price to pay.
Paladin
(28,254 posts)Way too many threads on the subject turning up here at DU. Reminds me of the worst days of the 2016 campaign. Enough, already!
MrsCoffee
(5,801 posts)Because we have Democratic leaders discussing what should and shouldn't be a line drawn in the sand.
So here we are joining in the discussion and letting it be known that there will be huge blow back if they suddenly decide that they are going to start funding anti-choice candidates. The party stands for something or it doesn't.
If discussion about the rights of over half the population bothers you, I hear there is a feature that will allow you to not even see these threads here.
Paladin
(28,254 posts)A woman's right to choose and to maintain control over her own body shouldn't even be an issue on a Democratic site, and all of a sudden we have multiple threads dealing with it. If it's "current news," it shouldn't be, to any genuine, long-standing Democrat---like me, for instance. I smell a rat, and I'm not taking back a single word, on your account.
BlancheSplanchnik
(20,219 posts)Roe v Wade came about because the laws against abortion (and birth control) were proving to be a cause of horrific deaths for women and pubertal girls.
Women have and will ALWAYS seek ways to decide whether or not they get or stay pregnant--there will always be cases where the prospect of carrying a pregnancy is a worse choice than seeking whatever means possible to end it.
There were so many women mutilated and/or killed by backalley solutions or their own desperate attempts to abort on their own, that the need for safe, legal accessible medical care became clear.
It's not about choice or privacy---it's about who decides whether women live or die.