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Sun Jul 16, 2017, 01:18 PM

If it's out of bounds to keep attacking Hillary, it's out of bounds to keep attacking Bernie.

Both of them have done good things and bad things. Both deserve respect and both are fallible.

But The future isn't about either of them as individuals-and we can't ever get it together and win the future if anybody is still perpetuating the notion of a rivalry between them OR between their supporters.

From now on, let's just be Dems and progressives and let's work on the assumption that all of US agree on the big point-that we need to fight for social justice AND economic injustice(i.e., against institutional repression AND against corporate dominance).

Past elections no longer matter. The common ground we can find if we will only reach out to each other is what matters.

We can build a massive movement for transformation in this country, and we MUST do that if we are to survive.

The only way to build that movement is dialog and a willingness to actually listen to each other.

And the only people any of us should be treating as the enemy is Trump.

Let's unite against him and unite with as many people of good will and progressive intent as possible.

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Arrow 236 replies Author Time Post
Reply If it's out of bounds to keep attacking Hillary, it's out of bounds to keep attacking Bernie. (Original post)
Ken Burch Jul 2017 OP
Skidmore Jul 2017 #1
Warpy Jul 2017 #29
Skidmore Jul 2017 #60
Gothmog Jul 2017 #196
Ken Burch Jul 2017 #118
pirateshipdude Jul 2017 #120
Ken Burch Jul 2017 #123
pirateshipdude Jul 2017 #127
LiberalLovinLug Jul 2017 #172
pirateshipdude Jul 2017 #173
LiberalLovinLug Jul 2017 #177
pirateshipdude Jul 2017 #179
LiberalLovinLug Jul 2017 #181
pirateshipdude Jul 2017 #189
LiberalLovinLug Jul 2017 #193
pirateshipdude Jul 2017 #197
LiberalLovinLug Jul 2017 #202
pirateshipdude Jul 2017 #203
LiberalLovinLug Jul 2017 #222
Demsrule86 Jul 2017 #183
LiberalLovinLug Jul 2017 #187
pirateshipdude Jul 2017 #190
pirateshipdude Jul 2017 #191
Demsrule86 Jul 2017 #210
Eliot Rosewater Jul 2017 #180
pirateshipdude Jul 2017 #192
Eliot Rosewater Jul 2017 #194
pirateshipdude Jul 2017 #200
R B Garr Jul 2017 #199
pnwmom Jul 2017 #2
Ken Burch Jul 2017 #121
pnwmom Jul 2017 #122
Ken Burch Jul 2017 #124
pirateshipdude Jul 2017 #128
Ken Burch Jul 2017 #130
pirateshipdude Jul 2017 #131
Ken Burch Jul 2017 #143
pirateshipdude Jul 2017 #164
pirateshipdude Jul 2017 #165
markpkessinger Jul 2017 #148
pirateshipdude Jul 2017 #133
Ken Burch Jul 2017 #142
LiberalLovinLug Jul 2017 #175
Gothmog Jul 2017 #198
nolabear Jul 2017 #3
bettyellen Jul 2017 #4
DeeDeeNY Jul 2017 #155
emulatorloo Jul 2017 #208
DeeDeeNY Jul 2017 #213
DownriverDem Jul 2017 #15
William Seger Jul 2017 #27
DownriverDem Jul 2017 #161
hueymahl Jul 2017 #178
Demsrule86 Jul 2017 #184
calimary Jul 2017 #16
Maven Jul 2017 #18
Adrahil Jul 2017 #23
George II Jul 2017 #43
ehrnst Jul 2017 #144
Justice Jul 2017 #163
MineralMan Jul 2017 #5
DBoon Jul 2017 #26
TheDebbieDee Jul 2017 #53
Gothmog Jul 2017 #37
sheshe2 Jul 2017 #95
Gothmog Jul 2017 #206
sheshe2 Jul 2017 #209
Ken Burch Jul 2017 #126
MineralMan Jul 2017 #157
emulatorloo Jul 2017 #211
LiberalLovinLug Jul 2017 #185
Eko Jul 2017 #6
Omaha Steve Jul 2017 #25
Eko Jul 2017 #67
mcar Jul 2017 #70
pirateshipdude Jul 2017 #71
Me. Jul 2017 #72
Omaha Steve Jul 2017 #74
Eko Jul 2017 #80
Omaha Steve Jul 2017 #81
Eko Jul 2017 #85
Omaha Steve Jul 2017 #87
Eko Jul 2017 #88
Omaha Steve Jul 2017 #97
Eko Jul 2017 #104
pirateshipdude Jul 2017 #106
Omaha Steve Jul 2017 #108
Eko Jul 2017 #110
ehrnst Jul 2017 #152
R B Garr Jul 2017 #91
Omaha Steve Jul 2017 #93
R B Garr Jul 2017 #101
betsuni Jul 2017 #76
JHan Jul 2017 #77
YCHDT Jul 2017 #135
NastyRiffraff Jul 2017 #168
NurseJackie Jul 2017 #170
R B Garr Jul 2017 #225
lapucelle Jul 2017 #79
R B Garr Jul 2017 #99
pirateshipdude Jul 2017 #100
R B Garr Jul 2017 #112
Omaha Steve Jul 2017 #102
R B Garr Jul 2017 #111
Omaha Steve Jul 2017 #221
R B Garr Jul 2017 #224
emulatorloo Jul 2017 #212
Omaha Steve Jul 2017 #218
emulatorloo Jul 2017 #228
Omaha Steve Jul 2017 #229
emulatorloo Jul 2017 #230
Omaha Steve Jul 2017 #231
Cryptoad Jul 2017 #7
murielm99 Jul 2017 #8
Iggo Jul 2017 #9
gilligan Jul 2017 #10
LakeArenal Jul 2017 #11
DownriverDem Jul 2017 #12
Demsrule86 Jul 2017 #21
lunamagica Jul 2017 #46
grossproffit Jul 2017 #51
Hortensis Jul 2017 #65
GulfCoast66 Jul 2017 #103
Hortensis Jul 2017 #141
Fla Dem Jul 2017 #13
Plucketeer Jul 2017 #34
Omaha Steve Jul 2017 #44
PatrickforO Jul 2017 #14
Bernardo de La Paz Jul 2017 #17
CCExile Jul 2017 #19
Demsrule86 Jul 2017 #20
Progressive dog Jul 2017 #22
DBoon Jul 2017 #24
pirateshipdude Jul 2017 #28
Gothmog Jul 2017 #30
liberal N proud Jul 2017 #31
Demsrule86 Jul 2017 #57
NurseJackie Jul 2017 #32
Blue_Warrior Jul 2017 #109
Gothmog Jul 2017 #207
FarPoint Jul 2017 #33
hunter Jul 2017 #35
Demsrule86 Jul 2017 #59
hunter Jul 2017 #63
SunSeeker Jul 2017 #138
pirateshipdude Jul 2017 #73
hunter Jul 2017 #75
Omaha Steve Jul 2017 #84
hunter Jul 2017 #89
Omaha Steve Jul 2017 #92
hunter Jul 2017 #96
Rebl2 Jul 2017 #158
boston bean Jul 2017 #36
pirateshipdude Jul 2017 #66
La Lioness Priyanka Jul 2017 #150
librechik Jul 2017 #38
jodymarie aimee Jul 2017 #39
JHan Jul 2017 #40
George II Jul 2017 #41
NurseJackie Jul 2017 #47
Ken Burch Jul 2017 #234
Squinch Jul 2017 #42
NurseJackie Jul 2017 #58
Squinch Jul 2017 #61
NurseJackie Jul 2017 #64
Snackshack Jul 2017 #45
George II Jul 2017 #48
lunamagica Jul 2017 #49
IronLionZion Jul 2017 #50
tiredtoo Jul 2017 #52
johnp3907 Jul 2017 #54
Orrex Jul 2017 #55
Post removed Jul 2017 #56
Blue_true Jul 2017 #62
ZX86 Jul 2017 #69
George II Jul 2017 #86
pirateshipdude Jul 2017 #94
Ken Burch Jul 2017 #125
Blue_true Jul 2017 #215
hunter Jul 2017 #68
NurseJackie Jul 2017 #132
Starry Messenger Jul 2017 #78
StevieM Jul 2017 #82
mvd Jul 2017 #90
StevieM Jul 2017 #98
mvd Jul 2017 #105
pirateshipdude Jul 2017 #107
brer cat Jul 2017 #116
pirateshipdude Jul 2017 #119
BainsBane Jul 2017 #83
Ken Burch Jul 2017 #129
pirateshipdude Jul 2017 #134
NurseJackie Jul 2017 #145
GulfCoast66 Jul 2017 #113
pirateshipdude Jul 2017 #117
Chevy Jul 2017 #140
ehrnst Jul 2017 #147
Tarheel_Dem Jul 2017 #114
NurseJackie Jul 2017 #146
La Lioness Priyanka Jul 2017 #151
redstateblues Jul 2017 #115
Post removed Jul 2017 #136
pnwmom Jul 2017 #137
Akamai Jul 2017 #139
La Lioness Priyanka Jul 2017 #149
Blue_Tires Jul 2017 #153
brooklynite Jul 2017 #154
betsuni Jul 2017 #156
dlk Jul 2017 #159
philly_bob Jul 2017 #160
LanternWaste Jul 2017 #162
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zentrum Jul 2017 #167
FairWinds Jul 2017 #169
Post removed Jul 2017 #171
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pirateshipdude Jul 2017 #176
lunamagica Jul 2017 #195
bettyellen Jul 2017 #182
Orsino Jul 2017 #186
FairWinds Jul 2017 #188
pirateshipdude Jul 2017 #201
Trumpocalypse Jul 2017 #217
pirateshipdude Jul 2017 #219
FairWinds Jul 2017 #227
Alice11111 Jul 2017 #204
Cary Jul 2017 #205
betsuni Jul 2017 #214
Trumpocalypse Jul 2017 #216
Ken Burch Jul 2017 #233
Trumpocalypse Jul 2017 #236
ecstatic Jul 2017 #220
kerry-is-my-prez Jul 2017 #223
delisen Jul 2017 #226
FairWinds Jul 2017 #232
Locut0s Jul 2017 #235

Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 01:22 PM

1. Just let it rest.

Not interested in endless affirmations of personality. Perhaps a focus on ideas instead might get you where you claim to wantvto be.

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Response to Skidmore (Reply #1)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 03:26 PM

29. If you can't say anything nice about primary candidates

then take it to Discussionist. That's why it's there.

Case closed.

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Response to Warpy (Reply #29)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 04:10 PM

60. No desire to go to that

cesspit. No desire to engage in endless arguing over personalities. We need to look toward getting a legislature together based o a forward looking agenda by next year, protecting the vulnerable as best we can in the meantime, and making sure the truth about the Trump administration be exposed long before 2020. Getting realistic is a good place o begin and moving from there.

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Response to Warpy (Reply #29)

Mon Jul 17, 2017, 12:38 PM

196. Please take it to the Discussionist

This would be fun

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Response to Skidmore (Reply #1)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 08:58 PM

118. That's my point, exactly.

Let it rest by letting all the attacks on BOTH of them rest.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #118)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 08:59 PM

120. Then Sanders has got to quit insulting us. Why do you consistently leave that part of the

 

equation out of these many OP's? I really do not get how you consistently ignore that tidbit while making your statement.

"Let it rest by letting all the attacks on BOTH of them rest."

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Response to pirateshipdude (Reply #120)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 09:03 PM

123. Neither Sanders nor Hillary is the point. Can't we just be past both of them as personalities?

What matters is US...and to win, we have to unite everybody who backed BOTH of them in 2016, plus as many people as possible who voted for neither.

We can't win if the supporters of either are anathemized...and the whole point of attacking Bernie, in particular, is to make his supporters and what they care about unwelcome in this party.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #123)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 09:15 PM

127. I know you have been told this a number of times, but I will repeat it again in case you truly

 

do not understand it.

It is about Sanders when Sanders is in TODAY'S news, doing something TODAY, attacking the Democratic Party or the party leadership TODAY.

If Sanders was not forefront, in front of the cameras causing problems for the Democrats, then we would not be calling him out. You started the thread about Sanders and Clinton and then tell us it is not about the two.

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Response to pirateshipdude (Reply #127)

Mon Jul 17, 2017, 11:19 AM

172. HE IS NOT ATTACKING THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY

The GOP is attacking the Democratic Party


Trump is attacking the Democratic Party


Fox News is attacking the Democratic Party


Rush Limpballs is attacking the Democratic Party


Brietbart is attacking the Democratic Party


Hate Radio is attacking the Democratic Party


We have so much work to do, why do some seem hellbent on creating a wind mill to fight also? Ask yourself, if Bernie is "attacking" the Democratic Party, why are so many of them, including top respected Democrats, working WITH him to defeat Donald Trump? Why does he get support from Democrats both in Washington, around the country, and on DU?

It's called constructive criticism. Its what happens when a party goes through such a loss. Its admitting that this election should NEVER have been this close in the first place. Its about re-branding, re-building, listening to all voices. Yes that even includes listening to the progressive wing of the party like Warren and allies like Sanders because shutting them out has not worked out so well.

Start appreciating another ally in our fight instead of creating yet another "ATTACKER".

As Kamala Harris tweeted after Bernies endorsement of Hillary:






It is ridiculous that this fighting the primaries has been allowed to continue on DU, despite the written rules. It is counter productive.

It does not mean we cannot bring up and be critical of side issues that each of Sanders and the progressive wing represent, or issues that the Clinton third way wing is responsible for. That there is room for disagreement on how or how soon we achieve a more egalitarian society, but there can be no moving forward or finding the best path if we cannot listen, yes even listen to criticism (not attacks) and when we hear it, not immediately start running around like the snowflakes we are always being accused of being.


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Response to LiberalLovinLug (Reply #172)

Mon Jul 17, 2017, 11:24 AM

173. Both parties are the same. The Democratic Party does nothing for middle class.

 

We need to put wedge issues to the side.

Yes, I feel he is attacking the Democratic party in nontruths. You obviously feel otherwise.

I think those three alone are attacks, on the Democratic party, our leaders, our base.

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Response to pirateshipdude (Reply #173)

Mon Jul 17, 2017, 11:33 AM

177. Please source these inflamatory statements

Or don't post them.

If there is no room for improvement with the Democratic party in regards to appealing to the middle class, then why is even Chuck - establishment - Schumer talking about finding a new way to win them over? That he is willing to listen?


Schumer: new Democratic 'agenda' will 'resonate with the middle class'

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jun/25/schumer-agenda-middle-class-democrats-congress-voters

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Response to LiberalLovinLug (Reply #177)

Mon Jul 17, 2017, 11:36 AM

179. If you are honestly stating you have never heard Sanders state this, then why should I bother.

 

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Response to pirateshipdude (Reply #179)

Mon Jul 17, 2017, 11:40 AM

181. Uh...that would be the one reason you should bother to I'd suspect

And not just for my sake but for other readers.

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Response to LiberalLovinLug (Reply #181)

Mon Jul 17, 2017, 12:00 PM

189. Google, Sanders: Both parties are the same. You want the info, it is there.

 

You do not care about info, or already well aware, since it is front and center, then it is merely about wasting my time, jumping thru hoops to only have the same conversation tomorrow. Which is the point, do not fight the Primaries. That Ken Burch does every three or four or five days.

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Response to pirateshipdude (Reply #189)

Mon Jul 17, 2017, 12:22 PM

193. OK, I indulged you

So the "both parties are the same" is from some Reddit poster.

Another link is to a story that includes a quote by him that many voters see both parties as the same in their treatment of the middle class. That that is one reason why many stay home. You may not agree. But if Sanders cared nothing for the Democratic party, then why would he be so concerned about the public's perception of it? (whether you agree with that perception or not)

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Response to LiberalLovinLug (Reply #193)

Mon Jul 17, 2017, 12:41 PM

197. I am not going to be sucked into fighting the primary and getting hides. The info is there.

 

I am comfortable and confident in what I stated are facts and easily proved out.

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Response to pirateshipdude (Reply #197)

Mon Jul 17, 2017, 12:51 PM

202. Good. That is the whole point of the OP

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Response to LiberalLovinLug (Reply #202)

Mon Jul 17, 2017, 12:52 PM

203. Then it failed miserably as I and many others have pointed out to Ken Burch. Eom

 

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Response to pirateshipdude (Reply #203)

Tue Jul 18, 2017, 12:18 AM

222. It works for me to stop fighting the primaries

Its all your choice if you want to ignore please for party unity.

But it is a little sad.

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Response to LiberalLovinLug (Reply #177)

Mon Jul 17, 2017, 11:42 AM

183. Here are some sources. I could have done pages actually but try google.

"The Vermont senator added that he believes Democrats have lost touch with the needs of everyday Americans."

http://www.npr.org/2017/01/06/508385203/bernie-sanders-says-trump-won-because-democrats-are-out-of-touch


“The current model and the current strategy of the Democratic party is an absolute failure,” Sanders said.

“The Democratic party needs fundamental change. What it needs is to open up its doors to working people, and young people, and older people who are prepared to fight for social and economic justice."

https://www.quora.com/Bernie-Sanders-says-Democrats-are-out-of-touch-with-the-middle-class-When-will-Democrats-turn-this-around

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #183)

Mon Jul 17, 2017, 11:54 AM

187. And I would say that this is NOT an attack but a concern to get things right

You may take issue with the term "absolute failure" as being too strong, but (putting aside the federal election loss) the Democrats have been gutted all across the land from Governorships to local elections. How would you describe it? Some has to do with GOP shenanigans, but there is much the Democrats could consider. And my link up-post on Chuck Schumer illustrates that he even thinks there is room for improvement.

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Response to LiberalLovinLug (Reply #187)

Mon Jul 17, 2017, 12:02 PM

190. "GOP shenanigans" Shenanigans? Voter theft/oppression/suppression are merely, Shenanigans? Eom

 

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Response to LiberalLovinLug (Reply #187)

Mon Jul 17, 2017, 12:05 PM

191. So, someone else googled for you and look, the response is: So? Proving my point, why bother.

 

The whole point of your post was to throw out a distract with uncertainty, to a point we are all well aware of.

Gaslighting. I think that is how the define that, but I am not real sure. Maybe someone else can help me with that one, too.

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Response to LiberalLovinLug (Reply #187)

Mon Jul 17, 2017, 01:25 PM

210. It is an attack...in my opinion.

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Response to pirateshipdude (Reply #173)

Mon Jul 17, 2017, 11:38 AM

180. We have not learned from last election and since I am not allowed to discuss it here

we will lose again in 2018.

Not that I could fix it all, but I do have this little speech, goes kinda like this

2 parties
not 3

any vote for 3rd party or non vote is a vote for fascism

the end

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Response to Eliot Rosewater (Reply #180)

Mon Jul 17, 2017, 12:08 PM

192. I really did not think people that defined themselves as progressive would encourage splitting up

 

our party vote. Math alone tells us that is a stupid idea. So, since it is so simple, we have to believe the purpose was not to win in 2016.

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Response to pirateshipdude (Reply #192)

Mon Jul 17, 2017, 12:31 PM

194. Agreed, although I have met very progressive, very involved activists

who didnt want the gop to win but couldnt see how what they were doing was so harmful and still is.

They cant see it, wont see it.

I have resigned myself and my family to the reality that America is over and we are trying to figure out how to survive accordingly.

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Response to Eliot Rosewater (Reply #194)

Mon Jul 17, 2017, 12:44 PM

200. I cannot give them an out any more than the Trump supporters. Facts are there.

 

A person is responsible for their own education because we have seen proven out. My stating fact does nothing. Does not matter. We have a world of alternative fact purposely playing it.

I simply become a part of the noise.

But we have also learned that not speaking out and calling out, re writes history. That serves none of us.

It is a tricky situation with social media, and constant msm of opinion.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #123)

Mon Jul 17, 2017, 12:42 PM

199. Your point was clear. You don't want any critiques

of Bernie's current remarks because you can't counter them with But Hillary.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 01:25 PM

2. Depends on what you mean. If supporters of either one are pushing the idea of a 2020 candidacy,

then we should expect some pushback -- as happens when ANYONE is suggested for 2020. No one is universally liked.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #2)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 08:59 PM

121. There's no good reason for either to run again.

The only kind of candidate that can ever unite the anti-Trump majority would be a candidate who played no major role in 2016.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #121)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 09:02 PM

122. The anti-Trump majority already chose Hillary, by a 2.9 million vote margin.

We have to focus even harder on voter turnout than we did this time around. And countering the Russian propaganda that will be directed against ANYONE we run.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #122)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 09:08 PM

124. We need to work harder on turnout and fighting Russian interference, but those aren't enough.

We can only flip the House and get a filibuster-proof majority in the Senate if the supporters of both past candidates, neither of whom will run again, are accepted as full and legitimate members of this party.

It's time for everyone to admit that the Sanders v. Clinton dynamic is over.

We can't win as a Sanders supporters-only party.

Equally, we can't win as a Clinton supporters-only party.

This party needs to be a united front in which the ideas of both of those campaigns, plus the ideas an energies of those whose votes we should have won but could not, are now needed.

No one has anything to lose from that.



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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #124)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 09:17 PM

128. "Equally, we can't win as a Clinton supporters-only party." Yes. We can. Eom

 

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Response to pirateshipdude (Reply #128)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 09:34 PM

130. No we can't. And there's no reason to try.

We need a big win in 2020. We can only get that by running a different campaign.

A campaign that fights for the Democratic base, and for everyone who SHOULD be in that base.

Anyone we nominated will fight for social justice and against institutional bigotry. That is never going to go away.



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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #130)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 09:38 PM

131. Yes, we can Ken Burch. Again, ignoring all that happened in this election to then

 

state that must mean we need the outlier vote at our parties expense, does not make it true. The reason that you do not think is a big deal in making ourselves, our party, our candidate in a pretzel to try and accommodate this group that has no interest to play nice and cause our party and candidate major problems.

The base was strongly with Clinton. That is fact. The outlier was not the Democratic base, that is the problem.

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Response to pirateshipdude (Reply #131)

Mon Jul 17, 2017, 03:11 AM

143. I'm not ignoring the Russian thing...but we can't win in the future if we assume that that

is the only thing we need to address.

And we can't actually do anything to address Russian interference until we win control over at least one lever of power.z

We can't make any gains at all solely on getting more of the base to vote.

All we'd have to do would be to incorporate at least some stronger economic justice ideas(most of the base wants New Deal economic policies from us anyway) a commitment to labor law reform(most of the country wants it to be easier for people to organize their workplace, and women and people of color want that more than the country as a whole) and at least a reduction in military intervention, especially in the Arab and Muslim world where it has been an absolute failure.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #143)

Mon Jul 17, 2017, 09:03 AM

164. And again. The Democratic Party is all avout economic justice to the point that Sanders himself

 

picked up a couple of Clinton policies. We are already there Ken Burch. This is rewriting history and causing damage to the party, for the sake of holding up your particular candidate, continually imply the Democratic Party is weak in economic justice when that is not factually true, to the point of Sanders stealing some of Clinton policies like the college program.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #143)

Mon Jul 17, 2017, 09:09 AM

165. Democratic party weak on economic justice. Right there. Incorrect, insulting, and fighting the

 

primary.

The reason people will always address this is while people like you and Sanders are still out there claiming the Democratic party is weak on economic justice, we have got to stand and speak out. That is a lie when Sanders was running and it is a lie now. To the point that Sanders policies were actually clueless and had to pick up Clinton's policies and then he goes to own it, rewriting history.

No.

You want people to quit saying "mean" things to Sanders? Quit playing the tired game that Democratic party is weak on economic just and that Sanders had anything to bring to the table. If so?

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Response to pirateshipdude (Reply #131)

Mon Jul 17, 2017, 06:00 AM

148. It isn't a matter of just bringing along the base . . .

. . . to win national elections, we, like the Republicans, have to appeal to a significant portion of independent (i.e., unaffiliated) voters. They are the single largest voting block in the country. At the very least, we should expend some energy trying to understand the folks who voted for Obama twice, then shifted to Trump.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #130)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 09:43 PM

133. Every one of your posts is you refighting the primary, as you insist you aren't. Re-writing history,

 

also.

That is why people are continually addressing your refighting the primary. Re-writing history is unacceptable.

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Response to pirateshipdude (Reply #133)

Mon Jul 17, 2017, 02:59 AM

142. I'm not rewriting history.

The only thing that is unchallenged history is that Trump carried the Electoral College.

And I'm not discussing anything in the fall campaign, let alone the primaries, at all here.

I'm talking about the future.

In the future, we need to bring in as many votes as possible.

Admitting the Sanders/Clinton dispute is over is part of that.


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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #142)

Mon Jul 17, 2017, 11:26 AM

175. Thank you Ken for this OP

It is much needed.

We have to think about the future indeed.


Here is a news flash for everyone:

BERNIE SANDERS IS NOT A MEMBER OF JPR

Sanders is too busy for that, working alongside Democrats to fight against this absurdity in the White House.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #130)

Mon Jul 17, 2017, 12:41 PM

198. The Sanders endorsed candidate in Virginia lost by a large margin

This theory has not worked in the real world

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 01:29 PM

3. You might want to tell Bernie that. He's not much of a uniter.

I tend not to attack him. But if he doesn't defend the party better in the 2018 elections I'm done with him for real. He's doing harm.

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Response to nolabear (Reply #3)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 01:30 PM

4. This- he needs to be working toward a Dem majority for 2018- it's crucial to our democracy.

If he's helping spoilers I have no support for that.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #4)

Mon Jul 17, 2017, 07:38 AM

155. ??

He's helping spoilers?

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Response to DeeDeeNY (Reply #155)

Mon Jul 17, 2017, 01:18 PM

208. Head of Bernie's superpac says they will endorse Republicans, Libertarians and Greens.

https://democraticunderground.com/10029277189

She also says that the Senator is in agreement with this.

That is certainly their right, I just wanted to answer yr question.

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Response to emulatorloo (Reply #208)

Mon Jul 17, 2017, 04:53 PM

213. Okay, agreed

If that person is accurately quoting Bernie, then that is distressing.

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Response to nolabear (Reply #3)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 02:39 PM

15. Yep.

We have a two party system no matter how folks want it to be different.

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Response to DownriverDem (Reply #15)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 03:23 PM

27. Yep, but problem is, "two party" is kind of a myth

Both the major parties have identifiable wings with different viewpoints in more or less cohesive coalitions, much like multi-party systems, except that we duke it out for leadership in the primaries. This past cycle, after the primaries and nominations, the cohesion was much stronger on the Republican side than on the Democratic side. We need to learn that it's great to fight hard up to the nominations, but then it really is a binary choice, and we need stop beating each other up for supporting the "wrong" candidate. Save it for the next primaries.

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Response to William Seger (Reply #27)

Mon Jul 17, 2017, 08:51 AM

161. No it's not a myth

I've been a Dem my whole life. They support more of what I care about than the repubs. It is so clear to those of us who know what the repubs stand for. Bernie needs to stop attacking the Dems. He needs to belong to the Dem Party if he wants to run in the Dem Primaries. There has never been total unity in the Dem Party. Join and fight for the changes you want. That's how it works.

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Response to William Seger (Reply #27)

Mon Jul 17, 2017, 11:34 AM

178. That is a really cogent observation

I had never really thought of our system as having so much in common with a multi-party system. What you pointed out makes a lot of sense.

Thanks!

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Response to William Seger (Reply #27)

Mon Jul 17, 2017, 11:48 AM

184. Two party system is all we have and all we will ever have...there are disgreements in the big

tent Democratic Party, but we can still unite and beat the GOP...when we are attacked on the left and the right, the GOP wins...which is what happened during the 70's and 80's,2000 and 2016...we are close to being wiped out by the pouting , posturing of some alt-left types (wish there was a better term and no I do not mean you) and purity politics....so unless you want to live under GOP fascism,it is time to recognize that the Dem Party is the only vehicle for progressive policy, and that will always be true.

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Response to nolabear (Reply #3)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 02:44 PM

16. Indeed.

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Response to nolabear (Reply #3)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 02:56 PM

18. Cosign. nt

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Response to nolabear (Reply #3)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 03:16 PM

23. +1 NT

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Response to nolabear (Reply #3)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 03:41 PM

43. And Nina Turner, too.

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Response to nolabear (Reply #3)

Mon Jul 17, 2017, 05:46 AM

144. 1000+ (nt)

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Response to nolabear (Reply #3)

Mon Jul 17, 2017, 08:56 AM

163. Agree + 1 million.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 01:33 PM

5. Oh, for pete's sake!

Bernie is the one who is still a Senator. Hillary didn't get elected to anything. Bernie is still the Independent Senator from Vermont. Hillary is a private citizen.

Hillary is not likely to run for office again. Bernie will run for his Senate seat in 2018 again.

Why are we talking about either of them? Why are you talking about them? Bernie will continue to vote with the Democrats in the Senate as always. Hillary will go to her polling place and vote for her choices of candidates.

Why is Bernie Sanders or Hillary Clinton a topic of conversation on DU right now?

For pete's sake, let it go, please...

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #5)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 03:22 PM

26. Q. "Why is Bernie Sanders or Hillary Clinton a topic of conversation on DU right now?"

A. trolls are busy stirring up disunity

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Response to DBoon (Reply #26)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 03:59 PM

53. I agree! It's never too early for disruptors to start meddling in the

2018 Elections. The Trolls didn't leave progressive internet forums after Trump was elected - they're still here!

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #5)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 03:32 PM

37. Hillary Clinton is out raising money for the party

Hillary Clinton turned her mailing list over to the party

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Response to Gothmog (Reply #37)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 07:24 PM

95. Hillary...here.

Kamala Harris in the Hamptons: Hillary and Her Money People Are #WithHer

https://townhall.com/tipsheet/jennifervanlaar/2017/07/16/kamala-harris-n2355560

Hillary is out supporting Democrats for 2018 as well as 2020.

Brava, Hill is for all the people.

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #95)

Mon Jul 17, 2017, 01:08 PM

206. Helping members of the Democratic Party raise money is a good thing

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Response to Gothmog (Reply #206)

Mon Jul 17, 2017, 01:25 PM

209. Yes it is!

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #5)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 09:13 PM

126. My message is, exactly, to let it go.

1) As a incumbent aligned with the Democratic minority in the Senate, he should be getting the same "don't trash Democratic public figures" deference that HRC or Biden or Joe Manchin gets here.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #126)

Mon Jul 17, 2017, 08:07 AM

157. Actually, the way you do that is to do that first.

Lead the way. Take the initiative. Be a leader, rather than a follower. Simple.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #126)

Mon Jul 17, 2017, 01:26 PM

211. Don't confuse criticism with violations of the TOS.

If you see genuine violations of the TOS, alert on them.

If you see differences of opinion on statements or policy, then use your considerable persuasive talents to discuss them.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #5)

Mon Jul 17, 2017, 11:48 AM

185. This IS a call to "let it go"

You yourself have been guilty of starting what some would call divisive OPs on the subject.

In what bizzaro world does a plea for reconciliation become an OP that IS divisive?

Why is a call for unity, and letting go of sour grapes, such a threat for some in here?

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 02:03 PM

6. There is a difference though.

Bernie is still a politician and he keeps criticizing the Democratic party. Clinton is not a politician and is not criticizing the party.

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Response to Eko (Reply #6)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 03:21 PM

25. DNC allies incensed by Clinton criticism BY CRISTINA MARCOS - 06/02/17 06:00 AM EDT


OOPS???

Irritated Democrats say Hillary Clinton is wrong to cast blame on the national party for her loss to Donald Trump.

Allies of the Democratic National Committee (DNC) in particular were incensed by Clinton’s criticism of the party apparatus, saying she mischaracterized the committee’s work while needlessly stoking internal divisions.

“This is all about the last campaign. And really, what Democrats should be focusing on, and what I think Hillary Clinton should be figuring out, is how do we empower the DNC to have the best data resources to win races this year, in 2018 and 2020,” a former DNC aide said.

“Having hard feelings about the data that you may or may not have received in 2016 ultimately is not the reason why we lost.”


http://thehill.com/homenews/house/336001-dnc-allies-incensed-by-clinton-criticism

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Response to Omaha Steve (Reply #25)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 04:58 PM

67. What a smoking gun you have provided!!!

Clinton-"I set up my campaign and we have our own data operation. I get the nomination. So I'm now the nominee of the Democratic Party. I inherit nothing from the Democratic Party," Clinton said. "I mean, it was bankrupt. It was on the verge of insolvency. Its data was mediocre to poor, nonexistent, wrong. I had to inject money into it."

You found a very mild critique of the data operation of the party, not the whole party.

Now for Sanders just this year.

3-31-17 in Boston.
"And the reason is, in my view, that the time is long overdue for fundamental restructuring of the Democratic Party. We need a Democratic Party which is not the party of the liberal elite but a party of the working class of this country.
"We need a party which is a grassroots party, a party where candidates are talking to working people -- not spending their time raising money from the wealthy and the powerful."

6-10-17
“The current model and the current strategy of the Democratic party is an absolute failure,” Sanders said.
“The Democratic party needs fundamental change. What it needs is to open up its doors to working people, and young people, and older people who are prepared to fight for social and economic justice.
“The Democratic party must understand what side it is on. And that cannot be the side of Wall Street, or the fossil fuel industry, or the drug companies.”

4-23-17
“Well, I think what is clear to anyone who looks at where the Democratic Party today is that the model of the Democratic Party is failing,”

02-02-17
“Let me suggest to you, and some will disagree with me and that’s okay, too. But let me suggest to you that what happened on November 8th. Trump’s victory was not a victory for Trump or his ideology. It was a gross political failure of the Democratic Party,”

7-13-17
"I'm going to stand up for the working class of this country that has so long been ignored, and in my view, the Democratic Party has not done a good job of standing up for the working class of this country."
"Well, for the last many, many years, the Democratic Party has been spending too much time raising money from its wealthy friends, turning its back on rural America, turning its back on the working class, talking about deregulating Wall Street, not paying attention to the needs of people whose standard of living has been in decline,"

I'm sure I could find more but there isn't any reason to. It is in no way equivalent nor is Clinton a politician.

Thanks!!!
Eko.


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Response to Eko (Reply #67)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 05:17 PM

70. You said it so well

As always, she is held to a higher standard than he.

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Response to Eko (Reply #67)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 05:23 PM

71. Thank-you so much for facts. Like the Russia/Trump vs Clinton/Ukraine. Not the same animal.

 

People that oppose Clinton often use this formula to obscure the truth.

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Response to Eko (Reply #67)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 05:24 PM

72. Beautifully Done

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Response to Eko (Reply #67)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 05:31 PM

74. "This information is really key to our campaign and our strategy,"


I was pointing out how valuable the DNC was to Clinton on Dec. 19, 2015 before her DNC position evolved!

https://www.usnews.com/news/politics/articles/2015-12-18/ap-source-records-sanders-aides-saved-clinton-voter-data

The campaigns are able to add their own information to the database, information which they use to target voters and anticipate what issues might motivate them to cast ballots.


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Response to Omaha Steve (Reply #74)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 06:06 PM

80. So what?

Not in any way equivalent, one time on Clinton vs so many with Sanders it would take me hours to post all of them. Plus,,,,,,,,Clinton is not a politician now.

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Response to Eko (Reply #80)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 06:12 PM

81. And Bernie has been out spreading the word against Trumpcare etc...


State after state and still drawing crowds of D's, I's, & even a few R's.

Somebody else not so much! SO WHAT?

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Response to Omaha Steve (Reply #81)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 06:27 PM

85. And repeatedly criticizing the Democratic party.

Unlike Clinton. Back where we started.

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Response to Eko (Reply #85)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 06:44 PM

87. Well I sure didn't feel like the D party was successful last November!!!


Did you? Maybe a little criticism isn't so bad?

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Response to Omaha Steve (Reply #87)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 06:47 PM

88. Not that successful,

but we did get 3 million more votes. And, this has nothing to do with the argument so why bring it up?

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Response to Eko (Reply #88)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 07:49 PM

97. You were saying Bernie is critical


I said there was room for criticism after last November's results.

https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/9ce9c371-4e95-4f5f-a9cb-94560de7eceb

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Response to Omaha Steve (Reply #97)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 08:10 PM

104. So, tell me why

Sanders gets to repeatedly criticize the party I belong to but I don't get to criticize him?

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Response to Eko (Reply #104)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 08:13 PM

106. Yes. Sincerely, I too would like to know why he can insult and attack not only the

 

Democratic Party, the Democratic leaders, but the Democratic base too and we are not suppose to call it out.

I would like to hear this also. My whole sense of fair and just is outraged with this demand. O.K., outraged is strong but I do not see the argument in it. It is not going to happen, either, regardless how many times we are told we are not suppose to call out the insults, attacks and worse.

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Response to Eko (Reply #104)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 08:21 PM

108. I made no such comment


This thread is on my comment Hillary made about the DNC. I never said she was wrong either. I did point out she evolved from a December 2015 comment last month.

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Response to Omaha Steve (Reply #108)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 08:25 PM

110. Sorry, this thread

is on my comment #6
There is a difference though.
Bernie is still a politician and he keeps criticizing the Democratic party. Clinton is not a politician and is not criticizing the party.

That you commented on.
Thanks!
Eko.

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Response to Eko (Reply #104)

Mon Jul 17, 2017, 07:33 AM

152. +1000 (nt)

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Response to Omaha Steve (Reply #81)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 06:49 PM

91. Why isn't Bernie inviting Clinton to go with him?

What's up with that?

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Response to R B Garr (Reply #91)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 06:53 PM

93. How do we KNOW he didn't?


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Response to Omaha Steve (Reply #93)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 08:00 PM

101. Ken Burch is very very concerned about unity, so no need for a manufactured

and gratuitous hit on Clinton in this thread about unity.

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Response to Eko (Reply #67)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 05:41 PM

76. +1

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Response to Eko (Reply #67)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 05:43 PM

77. wish I could rec posts.

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Response to Eko (Reply #67)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 10:52 PM

135. +1

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Response to Eko (Reply #67)

Mon Jul 17, 2017, 10:37 AM

168. Thread winner!

Excellent presentation of ACTUAL FACTS. Thank you.

Personally, I wish we could stop talking about Bernie altogether, but that won't be happening on DU any time soon. He SHOULD be irrelevant, but he keeps whining about how bad the Democratic party supposedly is.

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Response to Eko (Reply #67)

Mon Jul 17, 2017, 10:44 AM

170. That's brilliant. Thank you for an outstanding post.

It's perfect.

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Response to Eko (Reply #67)

Tue Jul 18, 2017, 09:56 AM

225. Excellent post! There's a reason the GOP attacks Chelsea

Clinton more than Bernie Sanders. He is an asset.

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Response to Omaha Steve (Reply #25)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 06:01 PM

79. What's a DNC ally?

Of course these people are pushing back. They're itinerant professional political consultants for hire who work on the Democratic side.

It's a hard loss to explain on a resume.

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Response to Omaha Steve (Reply #25)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 07:56 PM

99. You obviously didn't see the speech from which this article originated.

Have you even read the article? Of course, it wouldn't make as much sense without seeing the speech first.

Hillary was referencing the DNC as compared to the RNC in terms of effectiveness. Hillary was saying that the RNC is run more like a premier resource, and the DNC cannot compete with them. The RNC rep confirms that here:

------------"RNC Chairwoman Ronna Romney McDaniel appeared on “Fox & Friends” Thursday morning to tout the RNC’s infrastructure.

"We see it. We see it every day. We are on the ground in all these states. The RNC is far superior in terms of data and ground game. We retooled after 2012 and we’re going to continue to do that,” McDaniel said."-----------------------------

So you don't "need" to keep posting this, especially since you are taking it so out of context from what was discussed in the actual speech.

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Response to R B Garr (Reply #99)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 07:59 PM

100. Thank-you so much for the clarification for those of us that did not do the background research

 

on what was provided. I appreciate it.

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Response to pirateshipdude (Reply #100)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 08:34 PM

112. Thanks to you for saying that!

Appreciated.

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Response to R B Garr (Reply #99)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 08:01 PM

102. "This information is really key to our campaign and our strategy,"


I was pointing out how valuable the DNC was to Clinton on Dec. 19, 2015 before her DNC position evolved!

https://www.usnews.com/news/politics/articles/2015-12-18/ap-source-records-sanders-aides-saved-clinton-voter-data

The campaigns are able to add their own information to the database, information which they use to target voters and anticipate what issues might motivate them to cast ballots.

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Response to Omaha Steve (Reply #102)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 08:33 PM

111. One doesn't have to do with the other. The RNC can still be clearly superior in

the ways mentioned, which was the gist of her comments in 2017. The DNC can still be valuable. Also, two years went by between 2015 and 2017. Why are you insinuating or implying Clinton didn't "add" her information to the database. I'm sure Clinton targeted voters. Endless insinuations....

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Response to R B Garr (Reply #99)

Mon Jul 17, 2017, 10:17 PM

221. Hillary had at least 8 years to help change the DNC


IF it was so bad why did she pick the former person in charge as a running mate? DNC was bad should have been a red flag. Next person to run it resigns and gets hired immediately by Hillary.

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Response to Omaha Steve (Reply #221)

Tue Jul 18, 2017, 09:50 AM

224. More out of control insinuations and just bogus

info and conclusions. In that speech, she was mainly juxtaposing the superior RNC operations that are well-funded, etc. You apparently don't realize the comparison comments because you didn't listen to her speech.

Check Snopes to see where your insinuations are off. Not everything is about Hillary.

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Response to Omaha Steve (Reply #25)

Mon Jul 17, 2017, 01:35 PM

212. What's this sudden love for the DNC, Steve? You know I love you but

your overall arguments lack any kind of internal consistency.

One day the DNC is an all powerful Evil Cabal full of neonliberals, then the next day you feel sorry for for a couple butthurt DNC employees.

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Response to emulatorloo (Reply #212)

Mon Jul 17, 2017, 08:23 PM

218. Where do you see me sticking up for the DNC?


I pointed out somebody changed their opinion over them. December 2015 DNC was great with DWS in charge. Before DWS is was her VP pick. June 2017 DNC is bad.

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Response to Omaha Steve (Reply #218)

Tue Jul 18, 2017, 11:20 AM

228. Here

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=9333927

P.S. "December 2015 DNC was great with DWS in charge. Before DWS is was her VP pick. June 2017 DNC is bad."

So now you're making up shit, manufacturing strawman, and shoving words in other people's mouths that they didn't say.

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Response to emulatorloo (Reply #228)

Tue Jul 18, 2017, 11:25 AM

229. Do you see anything in that post that said Hillary was wrong in complaining?


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Response to Omaha Steve (Reply #229)

Tue Jul 18, 2017, 11:29 AM

230. I see a lot of scrambling, strawmen arguments, and revisionist history

And above all a lot of meaningless "whataboutism"

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Response to emulatorloo (Reply #230)

Tue Jul 18, 2017, 12:30 PM

231. I see in Dec 2015 DNC was great and mission critical with DWS running it


Then this past June she changed her tune, it's broken compared to the RNC.

I only posted the June comment in reply to several DUer replies about Bernie complaining about the party. Funny some can't see it as a simple comparison.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 02:16 PM

7. Must be time to stir the OLe Shit Pot!!!!

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 02:16 PM

8. You tell us to be united,

but you start out your post with a defensive statement about "attacking Bernie."

Let it go.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 02:19 PM

9. They're not going to let it go.

They barely let it go in 2008, and only then because there was a Dem in the WH.

Telling them to let it go isn't going to work.

It's not helpful.

Take your own advice and let it go.

(Oh shit. Now I'm doing it...lol.)

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 02:25 PM

10. When thats all they have. WTF.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 02:27 PM

11. No one feels the need to attack anyone..

Lots of people have critical opinions of each. Why use that word.. attacking... Everyone has an opinion, everyone has a critic. Do you think Bernie or Hillary lay awake nights feeling attacked by the other?

Past elections do matter. We need to learn from them and move forward. If that woman's path is different than that other guy's path... That's the way it goes.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 02:33 PM

12. Love Bernie's ideas, but

I am a proud Dem. If Bernie wants to run again in the Dem Party primaries, he needs to join the Dem Party.

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Response to DownriverDem (Reply #12)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 03:09 PM

21. I wouldn't vote for him in any case...and mark my words, if runs, we lose.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #21)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 03:49 PM

46. +1

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #21)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 03:58 PM

51. +2

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Response to DownriverDem (Reply #12)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 04:24 PM

65. I like Elizabeth Warren's ideas and accomplishments.

She's a doer.

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Response to Hortensis (Reply #65)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 08:06 PM

103. And equally important

A Democrat!

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Reply #103)

Mon Jul 17, 2017, 02:03 AM

141. Well, ideology is still more important than label to me.

But we're actually very much on the same page here. The Democratic Party is a genuine party of, by, and for the people.

I like to remember that, even though Warren was a registered Republican for years, she now works passionately as a Democrat to defeat what the Republicans have become. She's clear-eyed and competent and was able to become a Democrat because she understands and respects who and what we are and what we collectively stand for. Wish she had decided to run for president when people were so hopeful she would, including me. She would have done well, and whoever won the primary, the candidates would have entered the general pulling together. Because that's who she is.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 02:34 PM

13. That is just illogical thinking. Bernie is still a seating US Senator taking potshots at the Dems

HRC is pretty much out of the spotlight and really has no direct impact on the political landscape today. Bernie on the other hand keeps jabbing the Democrats, while espousing programs as his own that in truth are Democratic policies. When Bernie shuts his mouth, then maybe then we'll shut ours.

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Response to Fla Dem (Reply #13)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 03:31 PM

34. Bernie on the other hand keeps jabbing the Democrats

and voting in lockstep (IN the Senate) with them. Hillary votes Democratic too - at her local polling station.

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Response to Plucketeer (Reply #34)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 03:48 PM

44. Second time I've had to post this in this OP


OOPS???

Irritated Democrats say Hillary Clinton is wrong to cast blame on the national party for her loss to Donald Trump.

Allies of the Democratic National Committee (DNC) in particular were incensed by Clinton’s criticism of the party apparatus, saying she mischaracterized the committee’s work while needlessly stoking internal divisions.

“This is all about the last campaign. And really, what Democrats should be focusing on, and what I think Hillary Clinton should be figuring out, is how do we empower the DNC to have the best data resources to win races this year, in 2018 and 2020,” a former DNC aide said.

“Having hard feelings about the data that you may or may not have received in 2016 ultimately is not the reason why we lost.”


http://thehill.com/homenews/house/336001-dnc-allies-incensed-by-clinton-criticism

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 02:36 PM

14. We've got to stop attacking any Democrats, hash out our platform -

I think the platform used for Secretary Clinton in the 2016 election, which she won by popular vote, serves well.

However, we must learn to talk about kitchen table issues like fear of being laid off, health care costs, student loan debt and other things most independent voters, indeed, a majority of Americans care about, in aggressive, articulate ways.

For instance, when we talk about healthcare access, we need to say 'Medicare for all Americans' rather than 'Single payer.' Why? Because it polls better. Words do matter.

Check out the excerpt from a Washington Post article:

"A recent survey from the Economist/YouGov found that a majority of Americans support “expanding Medicare to provide health insurance to every American.” Similarly, a poll from Morning Consult/Politico showed that a plurality of voters support “a single payer health care system, where all Americans would get their health insurance from one government plan.”

Divining the longer-term trend in attitudes toward this idea is difficult, as the way survey questions on the topic are asked has changed over time. Views of a health-care system in which all Americans get their insurance from the government single payer vary a lot depending on how you frame the question. Calling it “Medicare for all,” for example, generally elicits much stronger approval, while emphasizing the word “government” tends to depress support."

Here's the link: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/sorry-republicans-but-most-people-support-single-payer-health-care/2017/04/17/f0919bb6-23a6-11e7-bb9d-8cd6118e1409_story.html

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 02:50 PM

17. Criticism, esp w recommendations for unifying party, is one thing. Attack not so good.


Ideally, we suggest how to harness all kinds of progressive, liberal, Democratic ENERGY to go forward and show the nation that the US is REALLY A PROGRESSIVE NATION once you cut out all the gerrymandering and voter suppression.

We have to win state legislatures and then put districting into permanent independent commissions.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 02:58 PM

19. I don't really think of Trump as the enemy...

I see him as the fungal bloom of mycelium made out of a web of tiny filaments called modern conservatism. He will rot, drip, and vanish one way or another. The real threats are his successors, the entrenched conservative, and a vast swath of un/under educated Americans. The short term danger is handing over the White House to Pence and having the current Congress start passing what they want to pass. Trump, with all of his horribleness, is a boon to our hopes for the mid-terms and beyond.

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Response to CCExile (Reply #19)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 03:06 PM

20. He is the enemy ...the worst president of my lifetime and the most corrupt...traitor.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 03:10 PM

22. I took away from your post that

the only things important to you are social justice and economic injustice.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 03:20 PM

24. Germany in the early 1930s

Last edited Sun Jul 16, 2017, 08:15 PM - Edit history (1)

Social Democrats and Communists spent valuable energy attacking each other, with Communists referring to Social Democrats as "social fascists"

A few years later, both were sent to the same camps.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 03:24 PM

28. Clinton is not creating todays headline, and making todays statement that might be addressed

 

Last edited Sun Jul 16, 2017, 04:45 PM - Edit history (1)

on a political board.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 03:26 PM

30. Did you ever make it to an indivisible meeting yet?

The real world is a nice place.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 03:26 PM

31. Hillary is probably done politically, BS, is still out there being rather decisive.

BS is partially bringing criticism but, I wouldn't think anyone needs to "attack" anyone!

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Response to liberal N proud (Reply #31)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 04:08 PM

57. He is a Senator...and that is that... I don't want him to run in 20 but he can be a good Senator...

he should stop saying stuff about the Democratic Party.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 03:30 PM

32. LOL! Nobody is doing that.

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Response to NurseJackie (Reply #32)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 08:21 PM

109. Hahahahaha

 

LOL!

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Response to NurseJackie (Reply #32)

Mon Jul 17, 2017, 01:11 PM

207. Yep

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 03:30 PM

33. When Bernie decides to stay a Democrat ..

I'll take him more seriously....My goal is and will always be to promote Democrats ... Bernie was a Hitchhiker for the Primaries..until he lost...then briskly returned as an Independent....

So, he uses us...He will have to do a lot of life choice changes for me to embrace him.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 03:31 PM

35. Bernie Sanders is a center-right politician in a center-right U.S.A..

Same with Obama, same with Clinton.

This issue is BORING. Not worth stirring shit about.

I will say I've been an enthusiastic Hillary Clinton supporter throughout, and an enthusiastic Obama supporter once he beat Clinton in the primary. Hillary would have been a better President than Bill but in this top-banana-republic of the banana-republic-U.S.A., and among the perpetually "developing nations" of this planet, we were not yet ready for a woman president.

Obama is among the most competent Presidents this nation has ever enjoyed. Clinton would have been such too.

My personal political views are hard left and environmentally extreme compared to Sanders, Clinton, or Obama.

But my public politics are always practical.

My criticism of Sanders is that he wasn't a practical presidential candidate. He may have contributed some to Clinton's Democratic Party platform, the most progressive platform ever, but he himself was not a viable candidate.

It's time to put this mess behind us because shit happened. It was partially because we Democrats were divided, but largely because the Republicans gamed the Electoral College, gerrymandered everything, suppressed votes, and entangled themselves with Russian mobsters.

We Democrats need new younger leadership that is willing to kick ass as it is respectful of it's elders, Nancy Pelosi, Hillary Clinton included...

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Response to hunter (Reply #35)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 04:09 PM

59. I agree with you completely. And I think this would be good as an OP nt.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #59)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 04:20 PM

63. Let's see if I get a Ken Burch reply...


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Response to hunter (Reply #63)

Mon Jul 17, 2017, 12:03 AM

138. LOL

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Response to hunter (Reply #35)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 05:31 PM

73. Hey Hunter, this is an awesome post. I may not stand exactly with you on the political slide.

 

Or I may, I do not know. But, the whole of your post is very pragmatic and to the point. I concur. I enjoy reading reason. Thnak-you.

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Response to pirateshipdude (Reply #73)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 05:40 PM

75. Pragmatic... that's a good word.

As much as I'd love to be represented by a multi-party parliamentary government, that's not what the U.S.A. is. It's a two-party system.

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Response to hunter (Reply #35)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 06:25 PM

84. Bernie the center right Democratic Socialist & Independent!


Millions of them....

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Response to Omaha Steve (Reply #84)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 06:47 PM

89. Did it help or hinder?


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Response to hunter (Reply #89)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 06:51 PM

92. It sure didn't bother the youngest voters (or I's)

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Response to Omaha Steve (Reply #92)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 07:26 PM

96. At some risk of this post hidden by jury...

...Sanders is an old white Jewish guy. Kinda like a political Einstein.

Same wild hair, assumed to know money, and most importantly, not a woman.

Maybe I'm allowed to say this for my Wild West frontier Lewis & Clark Jewish and Catholic folk ancestors.

My crazy grandma was buried quick and unembalmed in a plain wooden box with a Star of David on it. That's the way she wanted it. No, she wasn't Jewish, not that she ever practiced, just as my Irish Catholic ancestors were not Irish.

Yeah, right...

What my Wild West ancestors had in common was they were not Mormon.




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Response to hunter (Reply #35)

Mon Jul 17, 2017, 08:40 AM

158. Agreed

It's time for younger people to take over. I don't want someone in their late sixties or early seventies running for President again (I'm in my sixties). I think Republicans are quietly having a good laugh seeing us in such disarray and attacking each other.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 03:32 PM

36. Mommy, she started it!

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Response to boston bean (Reply #36)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 04:44 PM

66. Ha ha. Eom

 

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Response to boston bean (Reply #36)

Mon Jul 17, 2017, 07:28 AM

150. You win this thread

 

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 03:33 PM

38. I haven't been keeping track.Do Bernie supporters still scoff at the notion of Russian interference?

cuz I got a muzzle full of that a few months back when this first started. I guess they really really want to blame Hillary like from the beginning. Unless they caught a clue.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 03:33 PM

39. agreed

however, you can see some of us still dig swatting at each other. The Rs love that.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 03:38 PM

40. Yawn

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 03:39 PM

41. Some can just not let things rest - and this after a tome earlier this week that we need to unify.

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Response to George II (Reply #41)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 03:49 PM

47. Amazing, isn't it?

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Response to George II (Reply #41)

Tue Jul 18, 2017, 01:48 PM

234. This is about unity.

Unity means not telling anybody progressive to go away.

It means making this party a space in which people can work for what they want, including the ideas they want.

And it's not about the senator from Vermont as it is about us.

We need all the votes we can get in '18 and '20.

Whatever you think about the junior senator from Vermont-and I have issues with him on the way he has spoken on some issues-we HAVE to have the support of the people who rallied to him and of those who support the best of his ideas. We have no chance of winning their votes if we anathemize everything they care about and insist that no changes happen.

All we would need to do to win in future elections would be to combine New Deal economics with anti-oppression social policies-policies that would help the victims of hatred and the victims of greed-and no one in our base by the adoption of such policies.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 03:40 PM

42. Ugh. I thought all of this would be over so I un-trashed the words Bernie and Sanders.

While those keywords were trashed, I hardly saw any infighting. Now infighting and nonsense is about a quarter of my DU page. Can't believe you guys are still beating this dead horse.

I guess I'll restore the keyword trash.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #42)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 04:08 PM

58. Smart.

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Response to NurseJackie (Reply #58)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 04:13 PM

61. Also telling that the trashing of these two words eliminates the infighting posts.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #61)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 04:21 PM

64. Some people prefer to block specific users, but the word-trash feature seems like it's...

... very effective.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 03:49 PM

45. Hmmm...

"Sanders cited President Trump's win, the GOP-controlled Congress, and Republican victories in state legislatures as reasons why Democrats are in trouble.

Clearly the Democratic Party has got to change. And in my view, what it has got to become is a grassroots party, a party which makes decisions from the bottom on up, a party which is more dependent on small donations than large donations," Sanders said.

Sanders, who ran for the Democratic Party's presidential nomination in 2016, also emphasized the need for Democrats to connect to working-class and middle-class voters.

The Democratic Party has got to take the lead, rally people, young people, working people, stand up to the billionaire class," said Sanders."

He is making very valid points.




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Response to Snackshack (Reply #45)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 03:55 PM

48. Valid points, but never ever any suggestions on how to accomplish those things. It's always...

Last edited Sun Jul 16, 2017, 06:38 PM - Edit history (1)

..."we have to do this", "we have to do that", etc. Never "we have to do this by xxxx". Always pointing to negatives without presenting a positive.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 03:55 PM

49. Please send this to Sen Sanders. I hope he follows your advice

especially the part where you wrote "And the only people any of us should be treating as the enemy is Trump."

He needs to see it.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 03:57 PM

50. I look forward to the day when DUers attack Republicans instead of each other

One can dream...

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 03:59 PM

52. Still see some possible trolls in this thread

trying to stir trouble. United we stand.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 04:00 PM

54. Sanders doesn't get attacked.

He gets counter-attacked.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 04:04 PM

55. Yes, because got 3M more votes than Trump

And because the election was stolen from him.
And because people still tell him what he should have done better, even though he won the popular majority on an admirably Progressive platform.


Oh, wait. He didn't? Then your comparison is ridiculous.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)


Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 04:14 PM

62. Exactly WHAT???? Bad thing has Hillary done?

Your word bias exposed you.

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Response to Blue_true (Reply #62)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 05:09 PM

69. AUMF

That was a seriously bad thing that has gotten hundreds of thousands innocent men, women, and children killed. Violently.

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Response to ZX86 (Reply #69)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 06:40 PM

86. bush misused the AUMF. In principle it wasn't a bad idea, that's why so many...

...on both sides voted for it.

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Response to George II (Reply #86)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 07:01 PM

94. +1. I do not even bother anymore. Eom

 

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Response to Blue_true (Reply #62)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 09:10 PM

125. I wasn't saying she had done anything wrong.

But it's not permitted to say anything critical even about her fall campaign here.

Both are fallible humans. Both have made major mistakes.

Neither is solely responsible for what happened in November.

So let's take both of them out of the line of fire and move on to unity.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #125)

Mon Jul 17, 2017, 05:40 PM

215. There are still a lot of raw nerves.

I admire Hillary as a person and love most of her politics. But even I got flagged once or twice.

I wish DU members were not so quick to pull the trigger on other DU members and maybe get them banned from DU for what can be resolved by a simple DU mail to the person. I have had people that disagreed sharply with a post email me, after we talked for a while, I understood where they were coming from and to top thing off, we were actually not far apart.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 05:07 PM

68. Hello. Ken Burch?

Are you there?

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Response to hunter (Reply #68)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 09:39 PM

132. Good question. Very observant.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 05:43 PM

78. Hillary is now a private citizen again

The Senator still has a job funded with my tax money. I'll complain within bounds of this website as I please.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 06:19 PM

82. I'm not looking to complain about any Democrat, liberal or progressive. I am getting excited about

Jay Inslee, the governor of Washington, and the next president of the United States.

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Response to StevieM (Reply #82)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 06:47 PM

90. Hi StevieM

Does he have a good progressive record? While I could support Bernie again if he runs, I am looking to get excited about someone new, progressive, AND a Democrat. It just can't be all Bernie since he is getting older.

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Response to mvd (Reply #90)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 07:56 PM

98. I think he is known as a reasonably liberal Democrat.

He is a strong voice in the battle against climate change. To me that is the most important issue. I want the next president to be someone like Al Gore, someone who will make the fight for clean renewable energy priority number one.

He also was an outspoken critic of Trump's travel ban.

He appears to be more of a free trader than I suspect many Bernie supporters would like.

I am not Bernie's biggest fan but I actually don't think his age is disqualifying. I think everyone who wants to run should run. And I suspect that Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren will both enter the race.

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Response to StevieM (Reply #98)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 08:12 PM

105. True, I don't think it is either

But as a fan, I want the party to have more like him. Eventually the enthusiasm will have to be taken up by someone else.

Thanks for your reply and Warren is also one I may support. Really liking her book.

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Response to mvd (Reply #105)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 08:15 PM

107. I have to disagree. I do not think the Democratic Party can afford many more

 

comparing us to the competing party. We both are not even close to being the same. One thing I admire and never want to change about the Democratic Party is, we do not use hyperbole and rhetoric to sell our policies.

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Response to pirateshipdude (Reply #107)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 08:51 PM

116. +1

I think people who say both parties are the same are like children who always insist on getting their way or they won't play. We operate from the strength of having concrete policies and plans, not pie-in-the-sky promises or complaints with no realistic solutions.


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Response to brer cat (Reply #116)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 08:58 PM

119. Point on. Eom

 

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 06:24 PM

83. It's not about individuals

which is why every single post you write is about Bernie. If you cared about anything else, you'd post about it.

And he was attacked? Let me guess. That's about someone posting the "fake news" NYtimes article on the FBI investigation into alleged bank fraud. It's horrible when the news isn't censored to cater to your feelings.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #83)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 09:31 PM

129. Most of my posts aren't about him. They are about US.

My point is, there is an active effort not only to go after him in this party but to drive as many of his supporters away from active involvement in this party as possible

They can't be expected to be involved in this party if a precondition is that they have to give up having any group identity and accept the idea that everything in their agenda is against the interests of "the Democratic base".

Can we please just proceed on the following assumptions?

1) We are PAST the "economic justice OR social justice" debate. Campaign phraseology aside, those two movements agree on the agenda about 90-95% of the time. Many people work actively for both causes. Those causes have been largely aligned since at least the early Seventies and are growing more and more in agreement all of the time.

2) No supporter of any past candidate can be assumed to share the shortcomings others found in that candidate.

3) We need as many votes as we can get. If we focus solely on fighting voter suppression-which we obviously do need to do-that can't give us enough votes in and of itself to win, or at least not to win by the kind of margin we need to elect a Congress that will actually pass transformational legislation.

4) We can add a lot of votes we didn't last time without doing ANYTHING that would betray our current base.

I'm simply posting as somebody who wants us to win.

And at this point, I don't personally have a candidate for 2020.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #129)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 09:44 PM

134. Sanders is in front of the camera, today. We are addressing his statements from today!

 

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Response to pirateshipdude (Reply #134)

Mon Jul 17, 2017, 05:46 AM

145. That's a truthful and accurate observation. Straightforward and direct...

... easy to understand. (For most of us, that is.)

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 08:34 PM

113. Per the rules of this site I will not attack members of the Democratic Party

Nor do I attack natural allies such as Angus King unless I become aware of actions that ally has take that I feel deserves criticism(I hate the word attack in a political reference)

And if a MEMBER of the Democratic Party criticizes the party while working and battling within the party apparatus to make it better, they will receive my praise, even if I disagree with their goals. Because that is what a successful political party does. A group of generally like minded people fight like hell to reach a goal that none love, but all can agree on.

But when someone who became a member of my party when convenient and necessary to achieve their goal, and then leaves the party when the party is no long convenient starts throwing rocks at our party...well I might be inclined to attack.

Reminds me of the people who continually and loudly complain about their homeowners associations here in Florida. Everyone love to hear it an it makes them feel very popular. But if you ask them to run for the board and actually work to make the changes they espouse, they suddenly change the subject.


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Response to GulfCoast66 (Reply #113)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 08:57 PM

117. Excellent post. Yes. Eom

 

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Reply #113)

Mon Jul 17, 2017, 01:26 AM

140. +100000 n/t

 

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Reply #113)

Mon Jul 17, 2017, 05:47 AM

147. +1000. (nt)

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 08:36 PM

114. Careful. Your Bernie fixation is showing. Not everything revolves around the Independent from VT.

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Response to Tarheel_Dem (Reply #114)

Mon Jul 17, 2017, 05:47 AM

146. Thank you.

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Response to Tarheel_Dem (Reply #114)

Mon Jul 17, 2017, 07:32 AM

151. Everything revolves around old white straight men

 

Even if the base looks nothing like that

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 08:44 PM

115. Yawn-this kind of post is exhausting. Serves no constructive purpose

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)


Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 11:22 PM

137. Anyone who attacks the party should expect to face criticism from party supporters. n/t

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Mon Jul 17, 2017, 12:16 AM

139. I wish I had written this post. Your logic is sound and we need all the support we can get.

 

I think Bernie embraces all of the things that progressives want, except, perhaps, for turning into a Democrat himself. It seems to me that being an Independent he can appeal to wider range of voters. Clearly what he is doing in reaching out to the red states now is incredibly supportive of the Democratic agenda.

I don't know anyone else who is firing up the progressive base nearly as much as he is. He is telling "truth to power" and I believe that the country will be better off if he continues to do so.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Mon Jul 17, 2017, 07:22 AM

149. Again? lol

 

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Mon Jul 17, 2017, 07:34 AM

153. When I see people actually stop doing the former, I'll stop doing the latter...

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Mon Jul 17, 2017, 07:36 AM

154. I don't see attacks; I see criticism...

...and since Sanders is still engaged in political activity, his susceptibility to criticism is different than Clinton.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Mon Jul 17, 2017, 07:38 AM

156. I have checked my calendar, just in case, and it is indeed 2017.

Make it stop, make it stop, make it stop.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Mon Jul 17, 2017, 08:45 AM

159. If Bernie Would Just Stop Dissing the Democratic Party

I agree-- we need to be united. However, Bernie keeps coming out with digs against the Democratic Party, long after the election, when he's not even a member. Let's not get distracted by false equivalencies.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Mon Jul 17, 2017, 08:46 AM

160. Stop the infighting. Stop the hate threads on DU. /nt

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Mon Jul 17, 2017, 08:52 AM

162. Sacred cows are attacked, politicians merely criticized.

Criticism against a sacred cow is an attack.

Attacks against a politicians we do not support is merely criticism.

Every damn time.

For our bias tells us so.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Mon Jul 17, 2017, 09:38 AM

166. I agree

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Mon Jul 17, 2017, 10:35 AM

167. Thank you Ken. nt

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Mon Jul 17, 2017, 10:39 AM

169. The Dem Party is not above criticism . .

 

They should give Bernie a medal for showing them the
way on health care for all, college tuition, minimum wage,
and much else.

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Response to FairWinds (Reply #169)


Response to Post removed (Reply #171)

Mon Jul 17, 2017, 11:24 AM

174. Well no, Bernie did not "take" the Clinton college plan,

 

and why didn't the Dems pass a minimum wage boost when
they had 60 Senate votes?

The Dems did not adopt "Fight For Fifteen" until July of 2016 - clearly
influenced to do so by party activists as well as Bernie.

And what does "fails on the HC for all" even mean?

Pretty good evidence here that you are disingenuous.

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Response to FairWinds (Reply #174)

Mon Jul 17, 2017, 11:31 AM

176. Yes, Sanders did adopt Clinton's and then tried to own it.

 

His free college to all was a miserably lazy plan, poorly executed and did not factor in what would happen to our lower income kids, with the rich having more opportunity for the slots in colleges. While poor would end up paying for the rich to be educated.

Democrats were a little busy pushing out a HC. Obama and Democrats accomplished an incredible amount int he first year. 2009, they put out a minimum wage increase and it was shot down. The $15 an hour sounds good, but like most reasoned and well researched people know, not all of the nation is on the same playing field and that has to be taken into consideration which is what Clinton has always stated, stated in adopting the $15. and really no different than her position has ever been.

What Clinton is good at, unlike Sanders, is her ego does not have to be coddled, and if Sanders needs to own her positions so that she helps people, she seems to allow it.

Sanders had the opportunity to push the single payer in Vermont and walked away to allow it to flounder. He could have easily jumped in since he is so competent in develop a doable policy, right?

I disagree I am disingenuous. I am factual. It is all written in history. All one has to do is read, rather than following rhetoric.

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Response to pirateshipdude (Reply #176)

Mon Jul 17, 2017, 12:38 PM

195. Excellent post

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Mon Jul 17, 2017, 11:42 AM

182. People should react to what they're doing and saying now. If Sanders been disappointing -

And he has - in voicing doubt about the Russia issues, or attacking Dems. He's going to get pushback for those things here- it's a given. We're about supporting Dems. There are loads of places on the net with different aims.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Mon Jul 17, 2017, 11:49 AM

186. Bernie is not a Democrat.

He is available for sterner criticism by the rules.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Mon Jul 17, 2017, 11:59 AM

188. The Koch Bros are not democrats either . .

 

by any reasonable measure, but the Dem establishment seems to
have no problem with them.

The major problem that the Dem establishment seems to have
with Bernie is that he stands up for the New Deal.

We need more of that, not less.

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Response to FairWinds (Reply #188)

Mon Jul 17, 2017, 12:50 PM

201. Dems have no problem with Koch Brothers. Seriously? That is offensive, as a Democrat and

 

supporting my Democratic Party. And no, it is not true. That is what makes it stink so bad, that Democrats have to even respond to a comment like: Dems have no problem with Koch Brothers.

I can not take a post like this one seriously.

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Response to pirateshipdude (Reply #201)

Mon Jul 17, 2017, 06:26 PM

217. Not just offensive

but not true.

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Response to Trumpocalypse (Reply #217)

Mon Jul 17, 2017, 08:31 PM

219. Exactly. The OP questions why as Democrats we have to constantly challenge the lies. Eom

 

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Response to pirateshipdude (Reply #219)

Tue Jul 18, 2017, 10:57 AM

227. Where do you folks think the Democratic

 

Leadership Council came from? It was bought and paid for
by the Kochs, and as we can readily see from these forums,
it is still influential today in trying to turn the party away from
progressivism.

Bernie was and remains a breath of fresh air in the Dem
Party - challenging the establishment on a while range of
progressive issues.

Like FDR.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Mon Jul 17, 2017, 12:54 PM

204. I got dinged for even mentioning names of people

That rule should be dropped, as it is used to ding people when it isn't even remotely applicable, & it is very inconsistently applied.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Mon Jul 17, 2017, 12:55 PM

205. You go on and on about how many angels dance on the head of a pin

Last edited Mon Jul 17, 2017, 01:32 PM - Edit history (1)

None of this matters if we don't elect Democrats. You and I do not get our policies enacted unless we elect Democrats.

Which part of that don't you understand, Ken?

Occam's Razor: When faced with a complex problem with may possible solutions, start with the simplest solution. It may not be the most correct solution, and you can always change it. However you will be able to solve many problems just by using the simplest solution.

Why are leftists bickering? Because they want to bicker. Think about that Ken.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Mon Jul 17, 2017, 05:32 PM

214. There is no Hillary, only Zuul.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Mon Jul 17, 2017, 06:25 PM

216. Bull

Clinton is a private citizen now. Sanders is still an elected official and is planning on running again.

Also Clinton is a Democrat. Sanders is not.

Finally, Clinton is not attacking the Democratic party. Sanders still is.

He is fair game.

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Response to Trumpocalypse (Reply #216)

Tue Jul 18, 2017, 01:40 PM

233. He's critiquing it, bluntly. He's calling for change in the party, not its abolition.

And whatever you think of him(I myself think he phrased the "identity politics" thing horrifically badly and that he should find a less hostile way to frame his critiques), we need the young people who were engaged politically for the first time by him if we are to win by a decisive enough margin to actually change anything, or possibly if we are to win again at all.

Treating the man like he's the Antichrist works against OUR interests and will end up costing us votes we desperately need-votes we can never win by simply shouting "you HAVE to vote for us!".


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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #233)

Tue Jul 18, 2017, 06:14 PM

236. If he wants to change it so badly then he should join it.

Until then he is just a non-Democrat attacking my party. No better than Trump or Rush or a FAUX News talking head.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Mon Jul 17, 2017, 08:34 PM

220. In fairness, Bernie is the one inserting himself with divisive comments

every 5 minutes. I tried the unity crap but Bernie refuses to stop talking trash about democrats (while being positive towards Trump & the deplorables)! It's sickening!

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Tue Jul 18, 2017, 12:52 AM

223. Well, if either does something totally screwed up, I would certainly say something like "whoa this

is fucked up." It's not like either one of them is God. I do agree we do need to unite though. I always liked Bernie for years even though he has done some annoying things since running for president and I was a fan of Hillary from day one. Loved how she pissed off all those right-wingers.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Tue Jul 18, 2017, 09:59 AM

226. Democrats are progressive.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Tue Jul 18, 2017, 01:37 PM

232. I was a Bernie supporter until he lost the primaries . .

 

in NJ and CA, and then backed HRC fully - including with
thousands of dollars worth of in-kind donations.

I've been an active progressive democrat for decades, since long
before the DLC was just a gleam in the Koch Bros. eyes.

And what do I get for it?

Trashed on DU

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Tue Jul 18, 2017, 01:53 PM

235. All the above ↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑ is why Trump has a chance of winning again in 2020.

Instead of putting down your differences and agreeing to remake the party, to seek out new young blood to galvanize your base, you guys are stuck beating a dead horse. The current administration was installed by treason, is possibly a puppet of a foreign enemy nation, is as incompetent as a box of rocks. You would think that would be enough political motivation for galvanize and unite any political opposition. Apparently not enough.

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