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Tue Jul 4, 2017, 10:01 PM

 

In 18 years since Naders run, what has been accomplished by attacking the Dem party from the left?

I am counting from 1999 to present since Nader declared before 2000.

I've heard a few arguments for attacking Democrats from the left that all seem bad.

Does anyone think the country has been "pushed to the left" by the actions of those trying to do so? Has the Democratic party been pushed to the left?

If you can't answer yes to those questions, isn't attacking the Democratic Party from the left an epic and unadulterated failure?

And why is it that those folks are allowed to attack the Democratic Party from the left but if we respond to them in kind, some folks accuse us of being divisive? Why do some folks here think that is OK?

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Reply In 18 years since Naders run, what has been accomplished by attacking the Dem party from the left? (Original post)
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Response to stevenleser (Original post)

Tue Jul 4, 2017, 10:04 PM

1. they got what they wanted with Bush and Trump

 

that was their goal

people need to stop thinking these people actually want liberal policy.

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Response to JI7 (Reply #1)

Wed Jul 5, 2017, 04:28 AM

157. +1 nt

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Response to JI7 (Reply #1)

Wed Jul 5, 2017, 02:15 PM

336. +2 eom

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Response to JI7 (Reply #1)

Wed Jul 5, 2017, 04:05 PM

379. Rubbish.

1. All Gore had to do to win the presidency was carry his home state of Tennessee. He didn't.

2. The secretary of state in Florida illegally purged some 50,000 voters from the rolls. Most of them were black, almost all were indigent, and they would have voted overwhelmingly for Gore.

3. The hyper partisan US Supreme Court selected Bush.

Throw out any of those variables and Gore takes the oath Jan. 20, 2001.

This is a false meme.

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Response to SusanaMontana41 (Reply #379)

Wed Jul 5, 2017, 05:21 PM

399. Consider Nader's impact on New Hampshire voting in 2000.

Because it doesn't get much attention in the endless diagnoses of the 2000 debacle.

New Hampshire votes in the General Election, 11/7/2000
Bush: 273,559
Gore: 266,348
Nader: 22,198
Gore trailed Bush by a mere 7,211 votes. If a third of the Nader voters had seen the big picture and voted for Gore, then Gore would have won NH's 4 electoral votes and a total of 270 electoral votes for the win, making the Florida mess completely moot.

In 2004, sadder-but-wiser New Hampshire gave John Kerry 340,511 votes to Bush's 331,237 votes, all in a losing effort.

Nader was just one of the things that went wrong in that election, but he played a BIG part in enabling those 8 miserable Bush-Cheney years. By the way, the "Al Gore should have won his home state" of very RED Tennessee was a popular go-to for those on the right when they opined on the 2000 election results. No Democrat could have taken Tennessee by 2000; they likely won't ever again.

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Response to VOX (Reply #399)

Wed Jul 5, 2017, 05:28 PM

401. OK. Knock down No. 1 if you like.

That still leaves Florida and the Supremes.


I stand by my statement.

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Response to SusanaMontana41 (Reply #401)

Wed Jul 5, 2017, 06:42 PM

425. I'm in complete agreement with you on those.

Should have mentioned that in my orig. post.

I was merely pointing out one measurable way that Nader screwed up 2000 for Democrats. But of course, there were butterfly ballots, (even Pat Buchanan observed that he (Buchanan) got votes where he shouldn't have. And a dozen other factors came into play as well, including the "Brooks Brothers Riot."

Gore and his team also made a fatal tactical error in not calling for a complete statewide recount.

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Response to VOX (Reply #425)

Thu Jul 6, 2017, 07:00 PM

612. !!! Of course, the Dems never want to "look " bad, and it

would have looked like we were bad sports, which the Repubs always accuse us of, even if they win. Obama didn't want to look bad, by exposing the extent of the Russian invasion in the election, until it was over, plus he was intimidated my MM. Mook & the Clinton Campaign didn't want to stir things up and look bad by going after DT in Michigan & Wisconsin.
For God sake, we need to quit worrying about how we look, which is mostly a Republican intimidation tactic, and worry about winning.

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Response to VOX (Reply #399)

Wed Jul 5, 2017, 11:31 PM

446. 50% or it was Nader not seeing "the big picture". 50% was THIS PARTY not seeing the big picture.

 

It was not a reasonable expectation that the party would hold all the voters who backed it ticket through gritted teeth in '92 and '96 without moving past "The Third Way" and the rigidly anti-progressive platforms of the the '92 and '96 elections.

Why couldn't they say "it's a different era and the time has come to stop treating progressives as a nuisance to be silenced at best or an enemy to be crushed at worst. Let's let them back in and work with them again"?

It wouldn't have had to mean giving the left every single thing it wanted...just opening the door and being willing to listen again, and accepting that there was no need to be just as rigid in policy and party organization in 2000 as we had been in 1992.


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Response to SusanaMontana41 (Reply #379)

Wed Jul 5, 2017, 05:33 PM

404. I agree. I am so tired of this bullshit argument.

The horse is dead, it has been beaten into oblivion. I am so completely sick and tired of the left being blamed for every dem loss. Dems have lost for a variety of reasons - most of which have to do with faulty voting equipment, gerrymandering and and voter suppression.

Jeebus Christ enough already.

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Response to aquamarina (Reply #404)

Thu Jul 6, 2017, 01:46 PM

583. Thank you.

 

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Response to SusanaMontana41 (Reply #379)

Thu Jul 6, 2017, 06:46 PM

607. Plus, 4. SCOTUS, contrary to the Florida SupCrt's legit decision,

stopped the counting of critical votes.
5. Then, thre was also the Nader factor.

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Response to SusanaMontana41 (Reply #379)

Fri Jul 7, 2017, 08:28 PM

701. They just simply don't give a damn - vanity is of the utmost importance to them.

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Response to stevenleser (Original post)

Tue Jul 4, 2017, 10:09 PM

2. From the "left" with LIES.

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Response to stevenleser (Original post)

Tue Jul 4, 2017, 10:16 PM

3. What has been accomplished by attacking people who vote Green?

What has been accomplished by the constant whinging of conservatives about Democrats on the left?

Not a goddamned thing in either case but a lot of hard feelings. No one enjoys being insulted.

If you can't consider policy differences in an honest manner, attack the people who promote them. That's what conservatives do, whatever party they are in.

Try to remember this little gem: "Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people." -- Eleanor Roosevelt

Now if there are specific policies you object to, try posting about them some day. I would love to see policy discussions. It would make a great change from the usual fare. This thread will join the others like it.

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Response to Warpy (Reply #3)

Tue Jul 4, 2017, 10:33 PM

15. Hopefully, what is accomplished is informing would-be Green voters of how useless the Green

party is. Of course, some Greens are obviously beyond the reach of logic. But not all of them.

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Response to DanTex (Reply #15)

Wed Jul 5, 2017, 03:11 PM

358. +10000

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Response to DanTex (Reply #15)

Wed Jul 5, 2017, 09:29 PM

435. More likely it will create another few decades of animosity from people whose support we could use.

But, hey, it feels good to whine about it, right?

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Response to Gore1FL (Reply #435)

Thu Jul 6, 2017, 07:21 AM

481. For some reason, I don't hear Green apologists use that same argument when it comes to

"neoliberals" or "DINOs" or "corporatists" or anyone else except the far left. Why do you think that is?

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Response to DanTex (Reply #481)

Thu Jul 6, 2017, 08:04 AM

496. They aren't trying to build a coalition of voters to support Democrats.

There is a bit of freedom in behavior when you aren't in the coalition-building business. We Democrats don't have that luxury. Stomping our feet and holding our breath has proven not to work in the past. Perhaps we should try something different.

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Response to Gore1FL (Reply #496)

Thu Jul 6, 2017, 08:29 AM

509. I'm talking about people like you, who are defending the Green party.

You seem to object whenever anyone criticizes the Greens. But if you were truly into coalition-building, you'd also object to any criticism of, say, McKaskill or Manchin, or even Susan Collins or Lisa Murkowski.

After all, if the object here is to be nice to everyone and not offend potential Democratic voters, obviously any attacks towards centrists in either party would be contrary to that.

And maybe you actually do stand up for Susan Collins, but I doubt it.

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Response to DanTex (Reply #509)

Thu Jul 6, 2017, 01:26 PM

577. I'm not defending the green party. I am defending the Democratic party.

I want to win in the future and find the on-going illogical whimpering and whining to be counterproductive to that purpose.

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Response to Gore1FL (Reply #577)

Thu Jul 6, 2017, 02:04 PM

587. Well then stop whimpering and whining about the poor Green Party's hurt feelings.

If you are going to whimper and whine, at least have the courage to answer the question I asked in my last post.

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Response to DanTex (Reply #587)

Thu Jul 6, 2017, 08:28 PM

622. Well, I'll give you points for trying.

First off, I should point out you didn't have a question in your last post for me to answer. Here is a copy of it. Notice the lack of inquiries and question marks:


<Start Quote>
I'm talking about people like you, who are defending the Green party.

You seem to object whenever anyone criticizes the Greens. But if you were truly into coalition-building, you'd also object to any criticism of, say, McKaskill or Manchin, or even Susan Collins or Lisa Murkowski.

After all, if the object here is to be nice to everyone and not offend potential Democratic voters, obviously any attacks towards centrists in either party would be contrary to that.

And maybe you actually do stand up for Susan Collins, but I doubt it.


<Stop Quote>

Secondly, I am not wimpering and whining about it, I am telling you, for the good of the Democratic party, you need to get over yourself and try to win votes. That's how elections work. If that's too difficult for you to Grok you should probably put me on ignore, because I will continue to remind you and others who act like you of the damage you are causing for future elections.

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Response to Gore1FL (Reply #622)

Thu Jul 6, 2017, 10:46 PM

630. LOL. OK, let me rephrase it for you.

Why should we be nice to Jill Stein but not nice to Susan Collins? Why do you whimper and whine when someone criticizes Jill Stein but not Claire McKaskill or Susan Collins or Lisa Murkowski or Joe Manchin?

Let's see if you dodge three times in a row.

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Response to DanTex (Reply #630)

Fri Jul 7, 2017, 09:45 AM

641. I am not talking about Jill Stein or Susan Collins

I am talking about the progressive left as a whole.

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Response to Gore1FL (Reply #641)

Fri Jul 7, 2017, 06:53 PM

693. This OP is about Stien, Nader, the Green Party, and the rest of the far left.

I'm part of the progressive left, so obviously I have no problem with the progressive left. But nutjobs like Jill Stein and Ralph Nader who intentionally help Republicans get elected, I most certainly have a problem with them.

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Response to DanTex (Reply #693)

Fri Jul 7, 2017, 08:21 PM

699. Let's find a way to bridge that gap then between Dem candidates and would-be third-party voters.

I am pretty sure daily threads on DU slamming them won't accomplish it.

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Response to Gore1FL (Reply #699)

Fri Jul 7, 2017, 08:52 PM

705. Let's find a way to bridge the gap between Dems and moderate Republicans.

See how easy that was? Are you going to finally get back to the point?

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Response to DanTex (Reply #705)

Fri Jul 7, 2017, 10:47 PM

715. We've been trying that since 1988

"Between the 40 yard lines" has been a long-term failure. I'd much rather become Democrats again than be 1970's Republicans. If I wanted a Republican in the White House, I'd vote for a Republican. I don't and I won't.

I've never left the point which is and always has been that self-sabotage is a bad idea and Democrats should stop practicing it and embrace our natural allies on the left. This isn't really hard to grok.

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Response to Gore1FL (Reply #715)

Sat Jul 8, 2017, 10:05 AM

719. Not remotely true. The Dems did try it in the 90s (successfully).

But since then the party has moved significantly to the left. Yes, the 2006 takeover of the house was again based on building a moderate coalition rather than going hard left (hmm, I wonder if there's a pattern here). But Obama governed to the left of Bill Clinton, and Hillary Clinton ran to the left of Obama.

I mean, we had Cornel freaking West on the platform committee. Hillary's platform was well to the left of Obama's in either 08 or 12. And yet the Green Party increased its vote totals this year. Which means that Green voters are not rational human beings who care about progressive policy. Of course, we already knew that, because if the were rational, they wouldn't be voting Green in the first place.

Here's the situation. Neither Jill Stein nor Susan Collins are our allies. Jill Stein is, first of all, a nutcase, and secondly, she has proven time and again that she prefers Republicans to Democrats, which is why she works so hard to help get them elected. As for Susan Collins, she may be less horrible than the GOP as a whole, but if she actually wanted to stop the damage Trump was doing, she'd switch parties.

Still, I think it would be great if the Dems got some Stein voters or some Collins voters to come vote D. I don't really care which ones. But I'm not a Dem politician, I'm a progressive posting on a message board. And the things I post online have utterly nothing to do with why Green or Republican voters vote the way they do. So I'm not going to stop criticizing people who deserve being criticized.

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Response to DanTex (Reply #719)

Sat Jul 8, 2017, 10:46 AM

723. If you consider losing the House and Senate "success" I guess we were....

If Greens are "not rational human beings who care about progressive policy" then why do you feel the need to worry about who they vote for? How are they to blame for Clinton not being elected if they weren't going to vote for her? Your logic has mutually exclusive elements.

I'm not going to stop criticizing people who deserve being criticized, either. This includes people who seek to divide the left, like you, like Stein, Like Nader. I don't see insulting the Stein and Nader base as a means to get votes.

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Response to Gore1FL (Reply #723)

Sat Jul 8, 2017, 11:16 AM

725. I consider winning the house and senate a success. Also winning the presidency.

I guess I shouldn't be surprised that you totally ignore all evidence that runs contrary to your dogma. But the Dems did, in fact, win the house in 2006 by running moderate candidates in moderate districts. And Bill Clinton's "New Dem" strategy did, in fact, win the White House back after 12 years of GOP. And then Obama did win the presidency, and both houses of congress, by running a center-left campaign.

Hillary Clinton ran the furthest left presidential campaign since 88 at least, and she lost. Bernie Sanders, of course, ran to Hillary's left, but he didn't even come close to winning the primaries. So I don't really see the slightest amount of evidence in favor of your argument that the Dems should tack hard left. Has the hard left ever won anything? Not that I can recall.

And your last paragraph is pretty weird. You are conceding that Stein and Nader are trying to divide the left. And you are also conceding that they deserve criticism for that.

I have to ask, if they deserve criticism, then why do you have a problem when I criticize them (or the OP does)?

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Response to DanTex (Reply #725)

Sat Jul 8, 2017, 12:47 PM

727. 2006 wasn't in the 90s. Howard Dean's 50 state strategy deserves the credit

Notice that strategy didn't employ the "LEt's insult everyone who didn;t vote our way last election."

Stein and Nader can be criticiszed, sure. Attacking their voters is a fucking idiotic electoral death wish.

I am not really sure why this is so hard to comprehend. Let's try it this way: People won't vote with you if you shit on them. Say that out loud a few times in a row.

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Response to Gore1FL (Reply #727)

Sat Jul 8, 2017, 01:00 PM

728. Yes, 2006 wasn't in the 90s. Excellent point.

But taking over the house in 2006 required a lot of centrist candidates. Any 50-state strategy will require this because -- surprise! -- conservative states and districts won't vote for far leftists.

I agree with you about one thing. Attacking voters is a very bad idea for anyone running for office. It was a mistake when Hillary called Trump voters deplorable, even though she was 100% right. It was a mistake when Obama said that voters get bitter and cling to guns, religion, and racism, even though he was 100% correct.

And if I were running for office, I wouldn't say those things. But I'm not running for office, so I can say whatever I want. And, yeah, Trump voters are deplorable. And Green voters are idiots.

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Response to DanTex (Reply #728)

Sat Jul 8, 2017, 01:57 PM

730. Don't expect them to listen to you then. And don't expect to make a positive difference.

And if we lose the next election, you can start calling yourself and those with the same tactics names too.

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Response to Gore1FL (Reply #496)

Fri Jul 7, 2017, 12:49 PM

645. Exactly...they are the enemies of Democrats as much as Republicans. In fact Greens prefer

Republicans.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #645)

Fri Jul 7, 2017, 01:36 PM

654. The Stein people worked with Russia and did their best to help trump

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Response to Gothmog (Reply #654)

Fri Jul 7, 2017, 03:23 PM

659. They did...I fail to see how some defend them. I can't stand them and get a bit irrational on the

subject due to white hot rage.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #645)

Fri Jul 7, 2017, 05:33 PM

677. If so them voting for stein wouldn't have mattered then.

In which case, why does anyone at Democratic Underground care?

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Response to DanTex (Reply #15)

Thu Jul 6, 2017, 08:08 PM

619. Some are not the smartest, for sure. Their arguments

would often get an F in logic. I don't mean to say, they are all stupid, but unlike Michael Moore & Bill Maher, they didn't learn from the first go round.

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Response to Warpy (Reply #3)

Tue Jul 4, 2017, 10:49 PM

25. I'm trying to figure out what it is that you're really saying

Voting together in order to win elections isn't a valid topic of discussion? You don't wish to discuss this issue because...?

I don't get it. Why would you react essentially with an insult?

Look, if we vote Democratic we win. It's that simple.

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #85)

Wed Jul 5, 2017, 02:26 PM

344. We can't end the Greens by trying to browbeat Green voters into backing the Dem presidential ticket

 

no matter what.

That approach doesn't work.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #344)

Wed Jul 5, 2017, 03:12 PM

359. It might...we need to up our efforts.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #359)

Wed Jul 5, 2017, 10:17 PM

439. We can't win anyone over through spewing bile and assigning blame.

 

You win them over by making a positive case for why they should try something else.

We COULD have made a positive case to those voters last yaer by emphasizing the great platform, a great blend of ideas from both campaigns, that was created at Philly, and by emphasizing throughout the fall campaign that young progressive activists had made a big difference in what we stood for. Yet every suggestion that anyone made here about trying that was met with derision, sneers, and false accusations of "refighting the primaries".

Why was that?

Why was and is there a preference for trying to win people over by insulting them, when we all know that that doesn't work?

Why insist on doing it the hard way when we don't HAVE to?

That's why I don't understand.

It's not as though there are huge number of Stein voters or disillusioned progressive nonvoters lurking on this site who'd switch to voting for our presidential ticket if only they were sufficiently shamed.

And we wouldn't lose any of the voters we have now if we tried making a positive effort to win people over from other parts of the progressive spectrum by emphasizing the areas where we shared common ground with them.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #439)

Thu Jul 6, 2017, 07:33 AM

483. I agree and the Greens and our revolution should shut the fuck up.

I want nothing to do with spoiler greens and those who say they will endorse Republicans because party doesn't matter (Nina Turner, Our Revolution). I don't believe we can win over such voters ...best to try to shine a light on their organizations and show their true intentions...elect Republicans instead of Democrats. Hopefully, organizations formed for the express purpose of trashing the Democratic Party and helping elect third party candidates and/or Republicans such as our revolution will be seen for what they really are...Republican enablers. As for Greens, fuck them. They have provided the GOP so much help...the GOP actually funds them now.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #359)

Thu Jul 6, 2017, 07:13 PM

613. Yeah, Michael Moore, Sarah Silverman &Bill Maher

were very outspoken about LOOK AT THE FACTS. DO THE MATH. They had voted for Nader and look what happened. Don't make that mistake again.

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Response to Alice11111 (Reply #613)

Fri Jul 7, 2017, 12:51 PM

646. Yes we have to stop pretending that Greens are potential allies...they are not and educate those

voters we can... and that means calling the Green Party out as hopeless spoilers who will never win anything.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #646)

Sun Jul 9, 2017, 06:15 AM

737. It's worth a try to educate them as Michael Moore &Bill

Maher did. Otherwise, we need to really stigmatize them as electing extreme RW candidates. Send them all MEGA hats and S Saradon too.

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Response to Alice11111 (Reply #737)

Sun Jul 9, 2017, 07:53 AM

741. I agree...I think stimatizing them would help reduce their effectiveness ..no one wants to belong to

a party that sucks. That might persuade some too...who knows.

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Response to Warpy (Reply #3)

Wed Jul 5, 2017, 07:22 AM

164. Exactly. People don't like being insulted

by being called toadies of the banksters, the oligarchs, the "establishment Democrats," etc. You really think it's not done by the left? Read the old GDP.

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Response to treestar (Reply #164)

Wed Jul 5, 2017, 01:33 PM

318. You mean "WAH! He did it too?"

Most of us learned by the age of four or five that doesn't work as a justification for bad behavior.

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Response to Warpy (Reply #318)

Wed Jul 5, 2017, 03:18 PM

361. Yes Greens are akin to four year olds...it is true....the third party riffraff has no patience with

Democrats but endless patience for the GOP...of course in some instances they get a paycheck from the GOP for acting as spoilers. Wow those GOP donors sure put their money to good use...helped elect George Bush.

"Independent presidential candidate Ralph Nader -- still not on the ballot in a single state -- has received a recent windfall of contributions from deep-pocketed Republicans with a history of big contributions to the party, an analysis of federal records show.
Nearly one in 10 of Nader's major donors -- those writing checks of $1, 000 or more -- have given in recent months to the Bush-Cheney campaign, the latest documents show. GOP fund-raisers also have "bundled" contributions -- gathering hefty donations for maximum effect to help Nader, who has criticized the practice in the past."

http://www.sfgate.com/politics/article/GOP-donors-funding-Nader-Bush-supporters-give-2708705.php

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Response to Warpy (Reply #318)

Wed Jul 5, 2017, 04:10 PM

380. So the left gets to complain about being insulted,

but the ones they insult don't. One sided, a bit.

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Response to Warpy (Reply #3)

Wed Jul 5, 2017, 07:33 AM

172. It isn't a good way to get independents or non-Democrats to vote for Dems, that's for sure.

Appealing to suburban Republicans, like Ossoff tried to do, DOES NOT WORK. And not standing for anything other than "not them" doesn't work either. It helps to have actually ideas and standing up for them.

As it stands right now, in most places, independents are approximately 1/3 of the electorate and GROWING. To say nothing of non- or irregular voters. Of course, it's hard to appeal to that group when you don't really know what will work.

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Response to alarimer (Reply #172)

Wed Jul 5, 2017, 01:13 PM

306. HRC had fantastic ideas and policy points. Hopefully you and everybody else here is familiar?

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Response to Eliot Rosewater (Reply #306)

Wed Jul 5, 2017, 02:56 PM

350. HRC DID have good ideas...and the fall platform(with many Sanders things added)was excellent

 

The problem was, her campaign didn't talk about those things anywhere near as much as it focused on pointing out that Trump was a scumbag.

It never gained us any votes at any point to call out Trump as a scumbag.

The voters(including every single "moderate Republican woman in the suburbs", kept telling us they didn't CARE that Trump was a scumbag.

We should always run a campaign based primarily, if not exclusively, on talking about what WE will do and making a case for why our approach is better.

Negative campaigns only work for Republican presidential candidates. We have good, strong, popular ideas, so we never need to run negative presidential campaigns in the fall.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #350)

Wed Jul 5, 2017, 03:01 PM

353. can t respond without being banned

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Response to Eliot Rosewater (Reply #353)

Wed Jul 5, 2017, 03:07 PM

356. check your pms...we'll talk about it there.

 

n/t.

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Response to Eliot Rosewater (Reply #353)

Thu Jul 6, 2017, 08:15 PM

621. I know that

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #350)

Wed Jul 5, 2017, 04:57 PM

387. Ken: HRC brought tons of policy to the debates and to the campaign trail. Media minimized policy,

our ideas, and why they are better and went for the melodrama. They did not show her soundbytes on policy. Just the "drama" quotes.

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Response to emulatorloo (Reply #387)

Wed Jul 5, 2017, 05:05 PM

392. The campaign didn't bring them to the ads...the ads were predominately about attacking Trump.

 

It was a waste of time to run any ads about what HE was like...we knew by mid-September that kind of ad didn't work...they should only have been about what we had to offer.

We should have used the ads and social media solely for positive campaigning. That's the only kind that works for Democratic candidates.

And I say that as someone who wanted HRC to be elected and still wants to see her nominated to the Supreme Court by the next Democratic president. OK?


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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #392)

Wed Jul 5, 2017, 05:21 PM

398. Maybe. OTOH which Trump ads, speeches, debate appearances presented policy

in anywhere near the clarity or detail that the Democratic nominee did?

Who provided an actual road map to achieve policy goals?

Most detailed policy statement I remember from Trump was that Mexico will pay for the wall.


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Response to emulatorloo (Reply #398)

Wed Jul 5, 2017, 05:41 PM

406. I don't defend the Trump ads on policy, and I don't defend the Trump campaign on anything.

 

His campaign wasn't really about the ads, though. It was about the personal appearances, where he won by spewing bile.

The voters we needed to motivate to get to the polls were the young people who backed the runner-up in the primaries.

These were and are young people whose loyalties hadn't been solidified yet...voters who had valid reasons to feel excluded by the process and the system and justification for their distrust for the party leadership.

We should have treated them as a swing bloc-not that they'd vote Trump, they wouldn't, but that they'd swing between possibly voting for us, possibly voting third-party, or just not showing up.

These were never going to be brought to the voting booth in November by ads calling out Trump's scummitude or by demands that they vote Democratic just because they supposedly owed us their votes. Those kinds of appeals could only alienate them.

And we never needed to use those kinds of appeals to them, because there was actually a lot of good in our platform, a lot of things THEY agreed with, that could have won them over if only we'd reminded them of the role those people had in putting that stuff there.

We needed acknowledge the validity of what they had done, to admit that they had built real support for what they wanted, and that the party needed to be in partnership with them in order to achieve a long-term realignment.

And we easily could have sent that message without disrespecting or abandoning any of the groups that preferred the nominee-groups that never actually disagreed with the idea of a greater emphasis on economic justice, since they had been some of the primary victims of corporate greed-and by blending the social justice message of the nominee with a strengthened economic justice message.

That's all I've tried to say.

And there was nothing negative or destructive in any of the things I've argued for there.

It's all about helping us do better in the future...and NOTHING ELSE.


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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #392)

Thu Jul 6, 2017, 01:19 PM

572. I agree.

The negatives on Hillary Clinton were based on distortions and flat out lies, but they were there and the Republicans counted on the long history we have had with both Bill and Hillary to have some effect. The purpose of negative ads is to suppress the vote on the other side. That is what it is designed to do. When the Clinton campaign discussed how "unfit" Trump was, we who were supporting her, certainly knew it was true and we voted, but the 45% or so who didn't vote for anyone, most likely felt that either choice was wrong because of the negative ads from both sides.

I do think however that the media had a much more profound effect than ads necessarily, and they played up the conflict issue rather than policy. Perhaps the ads might have helped in some key states to up participation for those extra 80,000 votes, but we will likely never definitively know.

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Response to Caliman73 (Reply #572)

Thu Jul 6, 2017, 01:23 PM

575. The media played a role...but the media will ALWAYS play a role.

 

All we can do is to change the things we have control of.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #575)

Thu Jul 6, 2017, 01:25 PM

576. Agree again.

We do need to energize voters by focusing on policy and results.

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Response to Caliman73 (Reply #576)

Thu Jul 6, 2017, 01:45 PM

582. Thank you. This is the kind of exchange I'm looking for.

 

n/t.

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Response to alarimer (Reply #172)

Wed Jul 5, 2017, 03:22 PM

364. Why, Donnie appreciated the efforts of Green Party voters.

"Donald Trump on Wednesday said he would be happy if people voted for Green Party candidate Jill Stein for president because it would draw votes away from Democratic presidential nominee Hillary Clinton.

During a rally in Toledo, Ohio, Trump appeared to dismiss candidates outside of the two major parties.
“I think a vote for Stein would be good — that’s the Green Party,” he said. “Because I figure anyone voting for Stein is gonna be for Hillary. So I think vote for Stein is fine.”


http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/presidential-races/289554-trump-a-vote-for-stein-would-be-good

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Response to alarimer (Reply #172)

Thu Jul 6, 2017, 07:35 AM

484. Neither does nominating liberals in red states like the three candidate Sen. Sanders endorsed. They

all lost.

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Response to alarimer (Reply #172)

Thu Jul 6, 2017, 08:13 PM

620. Yeah, but most people who call themselves independents

Vote Republican

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Response to Warpy (Reply #3)

Wed Jul 5, 2017, 08:34 AM

191. The greens gave us the Iraq war, Citizens United and the gutting of the Voting Rights Act

Green voters need to wake up and take responsibility for their votes

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Response to Gothmog (Reply #191)

Wed Jul 5, 2017, 02:07 PM

331. THANK YOU. Green voters are unwittingly (or maybe wittingly) allies of GOP power-grab in the U.S.

But they'll choke before they admit it. And as long as they don't admit there's a problem, they're too dug-in their self-righteousness and there's no reasoning them.

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Response to BlueCaliDem (Reply #331)

Wed Jul 5, 2017, 02:50 PM

348. A vote for Stein was a vote for trump

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Response to Gothmog (Reply #348)

Wed Jul 5, 2017, 02:58 PM

352. Steiners will *never* own up to that.

They consider themselves "political revolutionaries" - ones who vote 'their conscience' (however self-defeating that is in the grander picture) and ones who get zero (always pro-Republicans) U.S. press-coverage if they aren't attacking Democrats.

It astounds me why they never see that.

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Response to BlueCaliDem (Reply #352)

Thu Jul 6, 2017, 07:53 PM

617. Plus, I bet anything she was helped by Putin. Just like

Flynn, she was paid for sitting at the RT table w him.

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Response to Alice11111 (Reply #617)

Fri Jul 7, 2017, 12:21 AM

639. No doubt about it. And the fact that she frothed at the mouth whenever she spoke of HRC

told me she's a Putin-lacky, all right. She hates Hillary Clinton probably more than Putin does.

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Response to BlueCaliDem (Reply #639)

Sun Jul 9, 2017, 05:46 AM

736. Her votes made a difference. It is all so obvious.

There were a lot of factors. How are the Republicans not even pissed about this. Guess if it helped get the Repubs elected, they don't care. So much corruption.
No wonder the Ethic Commisioner resigned, although it's too bad. Now, DT will appoint some suck up yes man to be his cheerleader.

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Response to Warpy (Reply #3)

Wed Jul 5, 2017, 08:56 AM

207. #Sad


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Response to Warpy (Reply #3)

Wed Jul 5, 2017, 09:52 AM

230. Thank you

Our party would be better and stronger to follow this advice, and particularly the advice of Ms. Roosevelt.

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Response to Warpy (Reply #3)

Wed Jul 5, 2017, 10:02 AM

240. Thank you so much

I think many can benefit from considering the Eleanor Roosevelt quote you mentioned-

"Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people." -- Eleanor Roosevelt


Such sage advice! It bears repeating. Think I will share this with a few people I know who will appreciate the sentiment.


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Response to Warpy (Reply #3)

Wed Jul 5, 2017, 10:07 AM

244. There's a better way to have a 3rd party be effective

Look into the Working Families Party.

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Response to crazycatlady (Reply #244)

Thu Jul 6, 2017, 07:36 AM

485. There is no reason for spoiler third parties in a two party system.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #485)

Thu Jul 6, 2017, 11:40 AM

556. WFP is not a spoiler third party

Some states have fusion voting, where a candidate can run on multiple lines. WFP was founded in NY, and endorses (some) Democrats. The line is sometimes responsible for putting the Democrat over the top in November.

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Response to crazycatlady (Reply #556)

Fri Jul 7, 2017, 12:56 PM

647. You say 'some' Democrats...sorry. Democrats are the only vehicle that get progressive policy e

enacted. So the fact that non-Democrats are involved makes it a spoiler party. And generally, WFP is most interested in getting six percent of the vote so they remain on the next ballot. What have they ever accomplished?

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #485)

Thu Jul 6, 2017, 08:03 PM

618. One reason Macron won in France, is the French have an

unwriten doctrine (it has a name, which I'm spacing ) that all of the parties will band together, even if they hate each other, to stop a far right party. He didn't win because he was so will liked. He won because the people are loyal enough to their country to stop a far right candidate. Ironically, he may turn out to be a great world leader.

We need that here. Maybe Michael Moore or Al Gore could start a movement.

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Response to Alice11111 (Reply #618)

Fri Jul 7, 2017, 12:57 PM

648. The left leadership refused to back Macron.

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Response to Warpy (Reply #3)

Wed Jul 5, 2017, 10:23 AM

251. If Greens won't vote Dem they are useless to us.

 

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Response to Warpy (Reply #3)

Wed Jul 5, 2017, 03:11 PM

357. Greens are spoilers... they cost Democrats elections...they throw elections to the Republicans

for cash...by speaking out and telling folks who they are, we keep them from being a part of the evil not so big Green empire. Now they side with Putin who stole our election.

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Response to stevenleser (Original post)

Tue Jul 4, 2017, 10:16 PM

4. I started to list something really argumentative

But, instead, I'll answer with a rhetorical question: is either the center left or far left happy now? Were we even more than fifty percent happy when the Big O was president?

No. None of us were happy and all of us were trying to progress the national dialogue while playing defense against psychopaths.

How can both groups, who -- like Sanders and Clinton -- agree on ninety-five percent of things, get over our bullshit, win elections, and help the vulnerable?

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Response to Nevernose (Reply #4)

Tue Jul 4, 2017, 10:50 PM

28. Just do it.

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Response to Cary (Reply #28)

Fri Jul 7, 2017, 03:58 PM

667. Hi Cary. Vote Democratic always!

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Response to Nevernose (Reply #4)

Wed Jul 5, 2017, 01:15 PM

309. How can any thinking person not vote for any democrat, in any election, as if their

life depended on it, even if that democrat was Satan herself?

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Response to Eliot Rosewater (Reply #309)

Wed Jul 5, 2017, 04:37 PM

385. Down ticket, I agree with you.

The party in charge sets the agenda. That's why I always vote straight Dem for Congress. And some of them were real stinkers.

I also vote straight Dem for president. I can't imagine ever voting GOP -- with the possible exception of Ana Navarro, who might not consider herself a Republican anymore. She talks like a Democrat.

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Response to Nevernose (Reply #4)

Thu Jul 6, 2017, 07:37 AM

486. That is a very good point...

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Response to stevenleser (Original post)

Tue Jul 4, 2017, 10:17 PM

5. the country has been pushed to the left, but since the party was determined to stay center-right....

 

Trump was able to outflank them to the left (with lies).


Losing 1000 state and federal seats is an epic and unadulterated failure, and you can't blame that on the left.

What has been accomplished by Democrats blaming everyone but themselves for their failures?

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Response to virtualobserver (Reply #5)

Tue Jul 4, 2017, 10:31 PM

12. so Russ Feingold is center right ?

 

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Response to JI7 (Reply #12)

Tue Jul 4, 2017, 10:41 PM

20. I never said that every member of the party was center-right

 

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Response to virtualobserver (Reply #20)

Tue Jul 4, 2017, 10:42 PM

21. i think the fact that so called progressives/liberals didn't vote for him proves they are not

 

progressives/liberals.

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Response to JI7 (Reply #21)

Tue Jul 4, 2017, 10:54 PM

29. Progressives and Liberals did vote for him.

 

Vote suppression has been perfected in Wisconsin.

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Response to virtualobserver (Reply #29)

Tue Jul 4, 2017, 10:57 PM

30. i wonder why that is not much of a concern of those who attack the democratic party and use the

 

losses as proof of something.

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Response to JI7 (Reply #30)

Tue Jul 4, 2017, 11:10 PM

32. What I wonder is why it has not been a concern for the Democratic Party.

 

What I also wonder is why they don't use that fact to attack the Republican Party for what it was doing.

This vote suppression isn't new.

The Interstate Crosscheck Program was started Kris Kobach in December 2005.
and by 2013 22 states were using it.

The fact that the Democratic Party hasn't been dealing with this is part of the reason that they have lost so many seats.

What I am hearing is.....don't criticize us.....don't make demands of us....we know best, so shut up.

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Response to virtualobserver (Reply #32)

Tue Jul 4, 2017, 11:15 PM

35. it is a concern for the party and something the Obama admin and Clinton had worked on

 

and again, the criticism is never about voter suppression. in fact they downplay it.

but then again i'm pretty sure these people are not from the left as they claim.

California has one of the best voting laws in the country and it's democratic controlled.

yet there are people who want to get rid of the democrats in california.

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Response to JI7 (Reply #35)

Tue Jul 4, 2017, 11:28 PM

46. first, they failed.....second, they didn't hang it around the neck of the republican party

 

That second part is the most important detail. The Republicans stole the 2000 election and Democrats never made them pay the price.

Why was Jill Stein calling out Operation Crosscheck during the campaign while Hillary was not?



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Response to virtualobserver (Reply #46)

Tue Jul 4, 2017, 11:30 PM

49. Jill Stein kept the money for herself . her intention was never about counting the votes

 

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Response to JI7 (Reply #49)

Tue Jul 4, 2017, 11:33 PM

55. Jill Stein was talking about the evils of Operation Crosscheck during the campaign...

 

long before the vote.

So your assertion fails.




Why weren't Democrats running against this evil?

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Response to virtualobserver (Reply #55)

Tue Jul 4, 2017, 11:35 PM

56. Stein is a troll that kept the money for herself.

 

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Response to JI7 (Reply #56)

Tue Jul 4, 2017, 11:41 PM

59. you avoid my question...why was Jill Stein, and not Democrats attacking operation crosscheck.....

 

during the campaign.

That is why they lost. Operation Crosscheck

Just like in 2000 when Democrats blamed Nader for losing Florida, but the reality was that SOS Katherine Harris threw 173,000 voters off the rolls.

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Response to virtualobserver (Reply #59)

Tue Jul 4, 2017, 11:44 PM

60. Nader did lie about Gore . democrats need to be in power to get change. Charlie Crist was Governor

 

in 2008 and one thing he did right was make it easier for everyone to vote even though he was a republican at the time.

democrats control california and are always making it easier to vote.

stein kept the money and they lie about democrats . Nader deserves to be called out on his lies.

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Response to JI7 (Reply #60)

Tue Jul 4, 2017, 11:48 PM

62. you still avoid the elephant in the room.....Democratic Party inaction on the REAL reason......

 

that they have been losing, vote suppression.

Calling out Jill Stein or Nader may be emotionally satisfying, but they were irrelevant in the election. Republican vote suppression was the real culprit.

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Response to virtualobserver (Reply #62)

Tue Jul 4, 2017, 11:50 PM

63. they do deserve to be called out for their lies. democrats in power in california HAVE made things

 

easier for people to vote.

it matters what is actually being done .

it's not that hard to just talk about being better than others when you have no intention of acctually trying to get things done other than profit from it .

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Response to JI7 (Reply #63)

Tue Jul 4, 2017, 11:52 PM

65. California can't win national elections for us.

 

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Response to virtualobserver (Reply #65)

Tue Jul 4, 2017, 11:53 PM

66. no state can win national elections by themselves . but California sure contributes a lot to doing

 

it .

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Response to JI7 (Reply #66)

Tue Jul 4, 2017, 11:57 PM

69. What is the national party doing?

 

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Response to virtualobserver (Reply #69)

Wed Jul 5, 2017, 12:01 AM

72. many things, depends on what specifically

 

there were many impeach trump rallies held across the country recently.

the national party is made up of democrats from the local and state levels.

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Response to JI7 (Reply #72)

Wed Jul 5, 2017, 12:05 AM

73. about voter suppression

 

Putting Kris Kobach in charge of this "commission" provides the perfect opportunity to attack this.

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Response to virtualobserver (Reply #73)

Wed Jul 5, 2017, 07:36 AM

174. We have gone to court...it is very hard to do anything about state elections...when the

states doing this are in Republicans hands. Elections are state run...I would remind you that a court packed with right wingers (courtesy of the Greens) took down the voting rights bill...which allowed Crosscheck. The third party riffraff create the problems by helping elect righties who pack the courts and then whine about how we are not doing enough when they knee capped us during the election...and Jillie is feeling very proud of her efforts to elect Trump based on her MSNBC interview.

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Response to virtualobserver (Reply #69)

Wed Jul 5, 2017, 02:43 PM

345. I spent weekends in PA in September and October

helping purged voters to re-register. We also devised election day voting plans to get the working poor to the polls. The DNC sent busloads of out of state volunteers to swing states week after week.

I know what the DNC did. I know what I did in PA. I know people who did the same thing in Ohio and Nevada. It wasn't as much fun as pontificating from behind a keyboard, but we did actually fight the good fight.

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Response to lapucelle (Reply #345)

Wed Jul 5, 2017, 02:50 PM

349. I pontificate wherever I am...at this moment, I just happen to be behind a keyboard

 

I just believe that beyond reacting to their suppression, we should demonize what they do, because it is demonic.

I want the national party to run a full ad campaign against this. Make it THE issue.

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Response to virtualobserver (Reply #349)

Wed Jul 5, 2017, 04:01 PM

377. The media focuses on what it chooses to focus on.

For whatever reason, voter suppression measures were treated as a niche issue in the run up to the election. It didn't help when the pundits conflated suppression with fraud. Now it's morphed into a "sour grapes excuse" narrative.

But I think it's a mistake to say that the Democrats ignored the issue.




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Response to lapucelle (Reply #377)

Wed Jul 5, 2017, 04:58 PM

388. I don't believe that Democrats completely ignored it

 

I just don't thing they handled it in a way that did political damage to Republicans.
Merely reacting to it and trying to mitigate the damage done isn't enough in my opinion.

It is my view that Republicans need to pay a big political price when they step over the ethical line.

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Response to virtualobserver (Reply #388)

Wed Jul 5, 2017, 07:11 PM

432. Thanks Ralph! Thanks Susan!

"John Roberts, a young lawyer in the Reagan administration who wrote dozens of memos at the time criticizing the VRA, three decades later authored the majority opinion gutting the law, ruling that states with the longest histories of voting discrimination, like Mississippi, no longer have to approve their voting changes with the federal government."


That was a 5-4 decision. Two of the five were Bush appointees.

Any measure to undo a Supreme Court decision is reactive by its very nature since it requires legislation. It's not as if the Democrats haven't been trying

https://www.thenation.com/article/democrats-unite-on-voting-rights/

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/04/us/politics/democrats-voter-
rights-lawsuit-hillary-clinton.html

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2016/06/25/democrats-demand-action-voting-rights-bill/86387790/

https://www.usnews.com/news/national-news/articles/2017-06-22/house-democrats-move-to-restore-key-provisions-of-the-voting-rights-act

http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/24/politics/voting-rights-act-democrats-file-bill/index.html

http://www.scotusblog.com/case-files/cases/shelby-county-v-holder/

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Response to virtualobserver (Reply #65)

Wed Jul 5, 2017, 07:31 AM

170. But Jill Stein and other Green riffraff can lose them for us right?

Jill was so worried about Crosscheck that she went to important states and said Hillary was the same or worse than Trump...Fuck Jill Stein...and she lifted money from Dems in her fake recount. She is a Putin /Trump shill.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #170)

Wed Jul 5, 2017, 09:23 AM

214. Wow, a politician who criticizes another politician from another party during an election

 

When did that sort of thing start up in America>

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Response to virtualobserver (Reply #214)

Wed Jul 5, 2017, 09:31 AM

217. There is no such thing as a 'Green Party"...they are Green spoilers...why do you

defend them...you know they have taken money from the GOP to spoil elections? They are Besties...and BFF's with Republicans. They should also be called yellow spoilers...they remind me of yellow snow...And they said Trump was the same or better than Clinton...no going back from that. As time passes, more and more people will realize how toxic the third party riffraff including Green spoilers are and how they prevent true progressives from enacting good progressive policy. These people call themselves leftist, but I don't think they are...libertarians maybe. No true liberal would consider Trump the same as Clinton. Nor would they attack the Democratic Party. The only vehicle for progressive policy.

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Response to virtualobserver (Reply #59)

Wed Jul 5, 2017, 12:34 AM

84. Hillary talked more about voting suppression than Stein or any other candidate.

 

And there were numberous court cases before the election. A couple were won a couple lost. How did people miss all that?

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #84)

Wed Jul 5, 2017, 12:43 AM

92. She talked about it a little....

 

Democrats generally should have been pounding away on the issue.

They didn't because they thought that they had the election won, and they didn't want to make unnecessary waves.

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Response to virtualobserver (Reply #92)

Wed Jul 5, 2017, 02:57 AM

143. Baloney- she talked about the Russian interference, minorities being targeted by crosscheck and

 

Onerous voting laws that had been passed. They fought crosscheck in court. The only thing she didn't talk about was that "voter fraud" crap because it was bullshit. And the accusation she didn't talk about this stuff is RW nonsense. That's Trump blaming Dems and you're parroting it. Shame on you.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #143)

Wed Jul 5, 2017, 03:03 AM

144. I was here during the election. I wasn't on Mars.

 

Talking about Russian interference is not the same as talking about Crosscheck.

Also, Hillary talking about it is not the same as having the entire party talk about it.

The Republicans pound away with lies and they get their message through, Democrats have legitimate concerns about vote suppression but they don't pound away with the truth even though the truth is on their side.

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Response to virtualobserver (Reply #59)

Wed Jul 5, 2017, 12:47 AM

97. No, you are hijacking the OP. The question is, what accomplishments can you list from attacking the

 

Democratic party from the left? That question has nothing to do with voter suppression.

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