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Sun Jun 25, 2017, 03:56 PM

 

Bernie Sanders extremely disappointed by stalling of Californias single-payer health care bill

SacBee:

Sen. Bernie Sanders is not happy with Assembly Speaker Anthony Rendon, who on Friday called a proposed California universal health bill “woefully incomplete” and killed it for the year.

“I am extremely disappointed that the speaker of the California Assembly is refusing to allow S.B 562, the single-payer health care bill passed by the state Senate, to come to the Assembly floor for a vote,” Sanders said in a statement issued Saturday.

Having recently urged California to be the nation’s leader in instituting universal health care policy, Sanders has been a strong supporter of Senate Bill 562, which would create a universal, publicly funded health care system for the state.

“If the great state of California has the courage to take on the greed of the insurance companies and the drug companies, the rest of the country will follow,” Sanders continued in Saturday’s statement.

Read more here: http://www.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/article158084629.html#storylink=cpy

Glad we have Senator Sanders fighting for the American people...

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Reply Bernie Sanders extremely disappointed by stalling of Californias single-payer health care bill (Original post)
Trial_By_Fire Jun 2017 OP
MichMan Jun 2017 #1
RandySF Jun 2017 #3
George II Jun 2017 #106
Trial_By_Fire Jun 2017 #4
ehrnst Jun 2017 #183
RandySF Jun 2017 #2
Trial_By_Fire Jun 2017 #5
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haele Jun 2017 #77
stevenleser Jun 2017 #162
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Demsrule86 Jun 2017 #65
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Wounded Bear Jun 2017 #8
still_one Jun 2017 #32
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SHRED Jun 2017 #54
NCTraveler Jun 2017 #82
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madville Jun 2017 #134
demosincebirth Jun 2017 #153
killbotfactory Jun 2017 #166
JI7 Jun 2017 #206
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chowder66 Jun 2017 #9
Trial_By_Fire Jun 2017 #10
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George II Jun 2017 #118
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MineralMan Jun 2017 #11
Trial_By_Fire Jun 2017 #12
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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Original post)

Sun Jun 25, 2017, 04:01 PM

1. Well, Vermont couldn't pass it either...... nm

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Response to MichMan (Reply #1)

Sun Jun 25, 2017, 04:03 PM

3. They passed it and repealed it.

They could not raise enough money.

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Response to MichMan (Reply #1)

Sun Jun 25, 2017, 04:03 PM

4. VT's population is only 626,000.

 

And the CA single payer supposedly on hold. We will fight hard for single payer in CA!

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Reply #4)

Tue Jun 27, 2017, 08:51 PM

183. They need to learn from Vermont's failure.

 

But you won't trying to talk to Bernie about it.

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Original post)

Sun Jun 25, 2017, 04:02 PM

2. With all due respect, he should read the paper.

We're having trouble with the funding mechanism. There's a difference between talking about it and actually getting it done.

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Response to RandySF (Reply #2)

Sun Jun 25, 2017, 04:05 PM

5. Oh I know...all those other countries having single-payer....

 

And the US continues to rely on middlemen insurance thieves...

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Reply #5)

Sun Jun 25, 2017, 04:07 PM

6. Then write the legislation yourself

If it's so easy. Many countries were fortunate to develop their systems from Square Obe without having to untangle the mess we're already in.

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Response to RandySF (Reply #6)

Sun Jun 25, 2017, 04:09 PM

7. There are already bills to do that...

 

As you wrote 'it it's so easy'....and already been done!

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Reply #7)

Mon Jun 26, 2017, 01:21 PM

77. Okay, here's the situation...

A lot of California's Single Payer bill was dependent on leveraging federal monies for Medicare/Medicaid and other federal grant programs to get it off the ground.
Covered California is a Medicaid expansion program. That means that over half of California's insured population is already enrolled in one form or another federal health care systems, which will need to be considered when setting up a state-wide system.
You don't want to double-tax people who are currently paying FICA and SS taxes on the federal level if you're going to be taking people off that federal program and putting them all on a state program separate from Medicare/Medicaid, VA, Tricare, Tribal Health, SCHIP, etc, etc, etc...
...you're going to need to incorporate that funding into your program to pay for those people who are going to now be covered by the state.
And after you know what you're going to be able to get, be it a percentage or a block grant, you're going to have to figure out how you're going to spread the remaining health care costs out amongst the public. VAT? Income Tax? Employer Taxes? Fees?
What about people who will need subsidies, because either they have no income or all their income goes to food and housing, and they can't afford premiums on top of that?

The U.S. Congress - both House and Senate - has made it pretty clear they want to get rid of Medicare/Medicaid over the next ten years, because in a "Free Market", income taxes and social Safety Nets are apparently evil because they destroy economic "equality and freedom". After all, in a "Free Society", everyone is free to make good choices as well as bad, and equal justice means that if you can't afford it, it's theft.

Haele

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Reply #7)

Tue Jun 27, 2017, 03:53 PM

162. No, chances are it hasn't as the prior response to you indicates.

 

I think most Democrats agree that single payer is the ideal end state. The problem is that getting there, even if there were broad national consensus on going there, wouldn't be easy to architect for all the reasons Haele wrote and more.

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #162)

Tue Jun 27, 2017, 04:04 PM

163. HR-676....

 

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Reply #163)

Tue Jun 27, 2017, 04:06 PM

164. Which I supported and know well, doesn't have a realistic transition plan

 

All these plans fail key areas.

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Reply #5)

Mon Jun 26, 2017, 07:00 AM

65. I agree with you, but the higher taxes needed for single payer especially at the state

level will be unacceptable for most people...in Europe and other places...their taxes are high, but they get services for those taxes. That will not be the case when only single payer is available....people can't count on a safety net so they must save...different way of doing things...insurers and pharmaceutical companies don't want single payer and will make sure it fails. We can't have a failure as an example of single payer...bad enough it happened in Vermont.

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Reply #5)

Tue Jun 27, 2017, 08:52 PM

184. Can you list "all those other countries having single payer?"

 

Because even Medicare isn't single payer, and most developed countries get universal coverage via multi-payers.

Proceed.

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Response to RandySF (Reply #2)

Sun Jun 25, 2017, 04:10 PM

8. Including all of the uncertainty of the Federal gov't proposals...

Hard to know how much money they get from Medicaid going forward.

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Response to Wounded Bear (Reply #8)

Sun Jun 25, 2017, 08:48 PM

32. That is actually the reason he put it on hold until we know what happens in congress

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Response to RandySF (Reply #2)

Sun Jun 25, 2017, 07:54 PM

20. Good point. Thanks. Eom

 

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Response to SHRED (Reply #54)

Mon Jun 26, 2017, 02:10 PM

82. Where does said poster disagree with Professor Pollin? nt.

 

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Response to RandySF (Reply #2)

Mon Jun 26, 2017, 03:35 AM

61. Yes, reality is important to consider, and Bernie

should know that since he couldn't get it implemented in his own state because it was too "burdensome'. How hypocritical to criticize California Democrats for something he couldn't do himself. And he's not even being honest as to why the bill was tabled here. He's throwing his usual campaign rhetoric out there, which is just grandstanding. Liberal California doesn't need to be scapegoated like this.

By all accounts, it's a tax increase, but it does have some offsetting mechanisms in it -- but it does increase taxes. It gets high support, but that goes down when people are told about the higher taxes as opposed to being funded through the offsets. When you look at the comments sections of the literature about this, you see a lot of concern about people losing jobs in the medical industry because of this. Most people who work for corporations are just everyday people who don't need to be demonized because of where they work.

You are right, he should read what is actually happening here instead of empty and wrong criticisms. It really diminishes the discourse, which is a shame.

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Response to RandySF (Reply #2)

Mon Jun 26, 2017, 06:46 PM

108. Yes, there were sensible and logical reasons why proceeding would have been a mistake. But...

....it's not 100% dead yet.

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Response to RandySF (Reply #2)

Mon Jun 26, 2017, 07:23 PM

134. Just charge everyone in the state 10% or something

Automatically deducted from payroll like SS/FICA, etc. Also charge employers a percentage/premium as well, most will be saving money anyway not having to give large chunks to the insurance companies.

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Response to RandySF (Reply #2)

Tue Jun 27, 2017, 01:06 AM

153. California has 40 million residents. That's a lot to cover with no federal help.

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Response to demosincebirth (Reply #153)

Tue Jun 27, 2017, 04:21 PM

166. It's the sixth largest economy in the world, ffs.

Somehow every other modernized country in the world can pull it off, rich or poor, but in California it's impossible without federal help?

The only reason it hasn't happened in our country is because lobbyists and big donors representing insurance and pharma companies don't want it to happen.

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Response to killbotfactory (Reply #166)

Tue Jun 27, 2017, 11:18 PM

206. California isn't it's own country. a lot of California money goes to support the entire nation

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Response to killbotfactory (Reply #166)

Wed Jun 28, 2017, 12:59 AM

208. You're right, but you forgot republicans.

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Response to demosincebirth (Reply #153)

Tue Jun 27, 2017, 08:55 PM

185. Especially since they were proposing to transfer Medicare and Medicaid to help fund it.

 

Good luck getting seniors to get behind that after the tiny population of Vermont going broke trying to implement what was WAY more than "medicare for all."

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Original post)

Sun Jun 25, 2017, 04:20 PM

9. It's too important. We have to get it right.

California will figure it out.

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Response to chowder66 (Reply #9)

Sun Jun 25, 2017, 04:23 PM

10. Canada's single payer started in just one providence...

 

Then went country-wide.

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Reply #10)

Sun Jun 25, 2017, 07:51 PM

18. Exactly and that's why we need to get it right. : ) nt

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Reply #10)

Mon Jun 26, 2017, 06:59 PM

118. If you're talking about Saskatchewan, at the time it was passed they were covering only....

....about 800,000 residents. And it took 37 years to go "country-wide".

California has more than 40 times that population.

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Reply #10)

Tue Jun 27, 2017, 08:58 PM

186. And didn't go federal until all the provinces did so independently - which took from '47 to '61..

 

And Canada has 1/10th the population of the US.

I don't hear Bernie talking about 14 years to single payer, do you? Please let me know if he has, and I haven't heard about it.

And with the failure of Vermont single payer, the voting down of Coloradocare last November, and California going back to the drawing board, it doesn't look like 20 years is going to be enough.

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Response to chowder66 (Reply #9)

Mon Jun 26, 2017, 06:49 PM

111. Exactly. If it isn't done right it will give republicans more ammunition for why it won't work.

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Original post)

Sun Jun 25, 2017, 04:33 PM

11. Unfortunately, Senator Sanders' hopes are not supported

by his influence, which is far too small to get something done in a huge state like California.

He is just one Independent Senator from a state with a very small population. He has very little pull with regard to California legislation.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #11)

Sun Jun 25, 2017, 04:36 PM

12. Do you live in California?

 

If you did live in CA you would have known Senator Sanders is highly respected and
influential here.

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Reply #12)

Sun Jun 25, 2017, 04:42 PM

13. I lived most of my life in California, up until 2004, when my wife

and I moved to Minnesota to care for her parents. I was a resident of that state from 1945 to 2004, so yes, I'm a Californian. While Senator Sanders has the respect of many Californians, that state has its own economy and a slate of legislators who are elected by people in that state. California also voted overwhelmingly for Hillary Clinton in 2016. I'm sure Senator Sander's opinion was listened to by legislators in that state, but they made their own decision on that plan.

There is no single payer system in Vermont, either, despite it being Senator Sanders home state. Installing a single payer system is a much more difficult task than most people think it is. It's coming, but even California is not quite ready for it, yet.

As much as I admire Bernie Sanders, his influence is not as large as many seem to think. Individual states do as they choose, not as Sanders wishes them to do.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #13)

Sun Jun 25, 2017, 04:47 PM

14. But, all those other countries implemented single payer...

 

Must not as difficult as people hope for...

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Reply #14)

Sun Jun 25, 2017, 04:53 PM

15. Do you know the history of the healthcare plans

in "all those other countries?" I doubt it very much. Changing something as extensive as healthcare is not just difficult. It's an enormous challenge. The system we have now has been in place for many, many decades. In terms of economics, alone, it involves a network of healthcare providers, hospitals, insurance companies and much more. There isn't going to be some instantaneous replacement of it with a single-payer system. The closest thing is Medicare. Even a Medicare for All system would mean enormous economic changes, which is why it is so difficult to establish.

It all sounds simple enough, unless you actually look at the scope of the thing and the impact it will have on a deeply entrenched existing system. It is definitely what we need, but it's going to come only after a great deal of pain for a lot of people. And, as healthcare consumers, we have precious little clout unless we stand together as a vast majority. We do not have that majority, however, or we would have a different President than we do and a different party in control of Congress.

If you want that change, you're going to have to begin by replacing the current Republican majorities, both nationally and in individual states.

It is not a simple process.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #15)

Sun Jun 25, 2017, 04:57 PM

16. You have no clue as to what I know or not know...

 

Rather rude of you to say what you wrote.

You see, progressives liberal democrats don't see it as difficult. It's a matter
of will.

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Reply #16)

Sun Jun 25, 2017, 04:59 PM

17. I asked you if you knew.

I didn't tell you that you didn't know. I said that I doubted that you did, based on your statements. So, you did not answer my question.

It is more than a matter of will on the part of "progressive liberal democrats." A detailed plan is required that will convince enough legislators to vote for it. A minority will not make this happen. In reality, it will take a large majority to do so, and that majority will have to be reflected in legislative bodies. At this time, that is not the case. I hope you will help to make that happen.

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Reply #16)

Mon Jun 26, 2017, 07:01 PM

119. Do you know the history?

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Reply #16)

Tue Jun 27, 2017, 09:21 PM

197. It depends on who you mean when you say "progressive liberal democrats"

 

And it's a matter of reality. Do you think that Vermont didn't have the will?

Was Bernie not inspiration enough to create that will?

And what about actual, unbiased experts? It's not like they're not out there talking about this.

http://khn.org/news/democrats-unite-but-what-happened-to-medicare-for-all/

I think you are the one who may not have a clue about what people here know and don't know about this issue.

It's like hearing tea partiers who are absolutely sure that the only way to prevent abortions is to close Planned Parenthood. After all, it's simple, right? You just need to have the will. Once the biggest provider of abortions is closed, women will just keep their legs shut, or give their babies up for adoption. Simple, right?

Until reality is introduced.


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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Reply #14)

Tue Jun 27, 2017, 08:47 PM

182. Not that many - the vast majority have multi-payer systems to achieve universal health care

 

"Single payer" and "universal healthcare" are not interchangeable, any more than "poodle" and "canine."

Facts are sort of important, and refusing to acknowledge them detracts from one's credibility.

https://www.amsa.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/SinglePayer101.pdf

Even Medicare isn't single payer, and any plan that included prescriptions, dental, hearing or glasses/contacts isn't "medicare for all"

That's one reason why Vermont single payer went broke - it was closer to a platinum plan than medicare.

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Reply #12)

Sun Jun 25, 2017, 08:57 PM

38. Sen. Sanders is highly regarded

Way up north here in the pacific northwest. He won BIG here, bigger than anywhere else in the whole of the State in fact!



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Response to CountAllVotes (Reply #38)

Tue Jun 27, 2017, 09:03 PM

188. Perhaps he knows more about the Pacific Northwest than he does about VT

 

Because he won't talk about what happened to single payer there.

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Reply #12)

Sun Jun 25, 2017, 09:22 PM

46. I live in California and disagree...

 

Bernie Sanders name on ballot propositions has lead to their failure.

In recent weeks Sanders endorsement of an incumbent LA school board member led to his defeat. I tried to tell Democratic operatives who called me frequently (asI always vote) that starting out with "Zimmer is endorsed by Bernie Sanders" was going to cost more votes than it generated,

Zimmer lost. I vote for him despite the Sanders endorsement.

I think you underestimate the anger of Democrats towards Bernie Sanders and his movement in California.

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Response to Expecting Rain (Reply #46)

Sun Jun 25, 2017, 09:32 PM

50. Are you saying that Sanders caused Zimmer to lose?

 

Wow....

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Reply #50)

Mon Jun 26, 2017, 11:13 AM

69. You mean like how so many think Pelosi caused Ossoff to lose?

Sorry, had to go there.

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Reply #50)

Tue Jun 27, 2017, 09:23 PM

198. Sanders' endorsement doesn't seem to be leading to many victories

 

Even when the "endorsement" is simply listing their name on a website that is affiliated with him.

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Reply #12)

Sun Jun 25, 2017, 09:22 PM

47. I live in California.

Sanders knows little of how sausage is made here.

As one of the world's great economies we have the Byzantine politics to match.

Personally, I think Jerry Brown is a more powerful political figure than Sanders, even though both are considerably right of my own political perspective.

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Response to hunter (Reply #47)

Mon Jun 26, 2017, 03:01 AM

59. Agreed. I live in CA as well. The single payer legislation cannot succeed

in practice unless CA is able to redirect Medicare/caid payments from the Feds into the system. Unless that is allowed, we won't be able to afford it. It would be stupid to move forward and pass this legislation at this time, only to have the vengeful anti-every-good-idea Rs in DC blow it up by fucking with the funding.

That would doom single payer across the country for at least another 10 years.

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Response to stopbush (Reply #59)

Tue Jun 27, 2017, 05:05 AM

155. Thank you for sparing me the writer's cramp.

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Response to stopbush (Reply #59)

Tue Jun 27, 2017, 09:12 PM

194. Yep, taking Medicare and Medicaid won't be a simple task, especially

 

after Vermont.

Seniors aren't going to risk what they have for something that has failed in a much smaller state that would be much less expensive.

It has to be bullet proof.

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Reply #12)

Sun Jun 25, 2017, 09:45 PM

53. He has lost quite a bit of his luster to "liberal" Californians...

There's a reason so many of us voted for Clinton in CA, around 56% vs 43% for Sanders in the primary. But beyond that many have since lost all respect for him when he said it's okay for Dems to be anti-abortion & anti LGBT equality. Among other things he has said and done since November. I've even heard him referred to as the "Head Bernie Bro" which equates him to some pretty unlikable people. So I'd say his influence here has dwindled.

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Response to Crash2Parties (Reply #53)

Mon Jun 26, 2017, 07:03 PM

121. +1

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Response to Crash2Parties (Reply #53)

Tue Jun 27, 2017, 09:24 PM

199. I heard something about that loss.

 

Even though I don't live in California....

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Reply #12)

Mon Jun 26, 2017, 02:05 PM

80. it's still not his state

and he has no experience with the inner workings.

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Reply #12)

Mon Jun 26, 2017, 06:50 PM

112. On what do you base that? Among how many people?

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Reply #12)

Tue Jun 27, 2017, 09:04 PM

189. There is this thing called the internet, and telephones.

 

Which is why I know why single payer failed in his home state, despite his refusal to talk about it, even to indicate that he learned something from it.

And I understand that California chose someone else for the Democratic presidential candidate, when given a choice.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #11)

Mon Jun 26, 2017, 02:18 PM

84. Yes, very unfortunately, because single payer is what we need. nt

 

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Original post)

Sun Jun 25, 2017, 07:53 PM

19. He didn't help Vermont any. Eom

 

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Response to pirateshipdude (Reply #19)

Sun Jun 25, 2017, 08:01 PM

21. Is that something to celebrate?

 

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Reply #21)

Sun Jun 25, 2017, 08:30 PM

22. No, he's pointing out that Bernie is all talk and no action.

And before this gets taken to the jury, Bernie said he is NOT a Democrat.

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Response to RandySF (Reply #22)

Sun Jun 25, 2017, 08:38 PM

24. All talk and no action? wow.....

 

And, you should read the TOS - you might be surprised...

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Reply #24)

Sun Jun 25, 2017, 11:07 PM

57. "Which one of his legislative accomplishments are you the most proud of?" You were recently asked

this question. You must have missed it, because you didn't reply.

So, again. Which one of his legislative accomplishments are you the most proud of?

https://www.democraticunderground.com/10029173142#post17

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Response to lunamagica (Reply #57)

Mon Jun 26, 2017, 06:59 AM

63. *Crickets*

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Response to lunamagica (Reply #57)

Mon Jun 26, 2017, 02:20 PM

86. I have plenty to say on that, if its fucking relevant. What is relevant is that Single Payer is the

 


right fucking thing to do. People who want to diminish the actual goal by laughing off Sanders for being disappointed in it, are entirely on the wrong page. Why is that your focus over the legislation that we should be getting?

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Response to JCanete (Reply #86)

Mon Jun 26, 2017, 06:25 PM

105. This is a discussion board. No matter how much profanity you use, you don't get to dictate what

I or anyone else posts.

And yes, it is relevant. So if you have plenty to say, just say it.

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Response to lunamagica (Reply #105)

Mon Jun 26, 2017, 06:45 PM

107. it's not germane to a discussion of whether or not we should have single payer. Its harping on how

 

effective one man has been at getting things we need, even as he has at least advocated and campaigned for them. Its shooting the messenger for not succeeding while our own party has historically dragged its feet on these matters and stood in the way, rather than agreeing with the overall goal.

To what purpose?

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Response to JCanete (Reply #107)

Mon Jun 26, 2017, 06:56 PM

115. So, aftet all, you didn't have "plenty to say" about his legislative accomplishments

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Response to lunamagica (Reply #115)

Mon Jun 26, 2017, 06:59 PM

117. address what I've said, which actually applies to the OP, and I'll address your BS

 


distraction that again, has nothing to do with the issue at hand. At least tell me why it matters in this context. If you can do that, I"ll explain to you how I feel about Sander's record in congress and the Senate.

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Response to JCanete (Reply #117)

Mon Jun 26, 2017, 07:06 PM

124. No, you said you have plenty to say. When I asked you to proceed, all you give did was

ask me a question.

Please answer the question I asked first, and then I'll respond to your question

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Response to lunamagica (Reply #124)

Mon Jun 26, 2017, 07:09 PM

126. even in my original post I was clear that I wasn't going to get off topic and go into it, because,

 


you know, it was kind of my point in the first place, that you are going off topic. I guess that's where you feel more comfortable on this one.

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Response to JCanete (Reply #126)

Mon Jun 26, 2017, 08:30 PM

143. lol, OK you win. The question is relevant because Sanders is an expert in pointing fingers and

telling others what to do, while he has little to show. Now he is lecturing California, a huge state with almost 40 million people, on an issue he could not implement himself in his tiny state of Vermont.

His supporters think that this is perfectly fine, because he is "influential" and "most popular". Supposedly this makes him an authority on whatever issue he is talking about, gives him the right to point fingers and pontificate, and we're supposed to follow.

I'd like to see a real specific reason on what qualifies him for this. Something like what his legislative accomplishments are, and which one are his followers most proud of. This seems to be a really tough and complicated question to ask, because it keeps going unanswered.

So, now will you say which of his legislative accomplishments are you most proud of?

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Response to lunamagica (Reply #143)

Tue Jun 27, 2017, 12:35 AM

150. yes, and thank you. I promise to respond to this when I have the energy. Just got off work. nt

 

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Reply #24)

Sun Jun 25, 2017, 11:34 PM

58. This is a fact based community

Anything that is a fact is legit here. So tell me about all the accomplishments of Senator Sanders.

From what I can see he has continually won office in a very small, homogenous state.

And after 30 years in office has no major accomplishments that he can claim. If I am wrong please correct me.

Have a nice evening

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Reply #58)

Mon Jun 26, 2017, 06:59 AM

64. *Crickets*

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Reply #24)

Mon Jun 26, 2017, 11:15 AM

70. Bernie isn't protected by the "don't criticize Dems" rule...

since he.....well....isn't a Democrat by his own admission.

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Response to Wounded Bear (Reply #70)

Mon Jun 26, 2017, 11:18 AM

71. TOS: Political

 


Don't bash Democratic public figures

Do not post disrespectful nicknames, insults, or highly inflammatory attacks against any Democratic public figures. Do not post anything that could be construed as bashing, trashing, undermining, or depressing turnout for any Democratic general election candidate, and do not compare any Democratic general election candidate unfavorably to their general election opponent(s).

Why we have this rule: Our forum members support and admire a wide variety of Democratic politicians and public figures. Constructive criticism is always welcome, but our members don't expect to see Democrats viciously denigrated on this website. This rule also applies to Independents who align themselves with Democrats (eg: Bernie Sanders).

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Reply #71)

Mon Jun 26, 2017, 11:26 AM

72. When Bernie actually joins the party...

even when it doesn't suit his individual political needs, he'll be covered by that rule.

I love his progressive ideas as much as anyone, but he can't just do drive by politics without repercussions.

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Response to Wounded Bear (Reply #72)

Mon Jun 26, 2017, 11:27 AM

73. Did you read the TOS? Obviously not... Try again...

 

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Reply #73)

Mon Jun 26, 2017, 11:32 AM

74. LOL!!!

Been here for years, with nary a single ban or hide. I guess I know how to operate. But then, I tend to not read the rules with an ear of how to get around them.

Bernie has openly admitted he is not a Dem. He is very selective in the Dems and policies he supports. Your support of him is admirable on its face. It remains to be seen how valuable it is to the Democratic Party.

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Reply #73)

Mon Jun 26, 2017, 06:47 PM

109. Please point to the "disrespectful nicknames, insults, or highly inflammatory attacks" in this

thread.

I don't really see that.

I see either constructive criticism, suggestions that Sanders doesn't understand California politics, or scepticism about how single payer will be paid for.

Those things don't violate the TOS.

I am a Sanders supporter. He's a human being just like you and me. That means he's fallible. Because humans are. I agree with a lot of what he says but sometimes I believe he's wrong headed on some things and some tactics.

TOS is not about pretending our politicians are perfect, nor is it about shutting down discussion.

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Reply #71)

Tue Jun 27, 2017, 07:50 AM

158. That says don't BASH Democratic public figures, not don't criticize Democratic public figures.

Big difference.

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Reply #71)

Tue Jun 27, 2017, 09:27 PM

200. Understanding the difference between "bash" and "criticize" is key.

 

You may be very emotional about any critique of a particular career politician, but that doesn't make it bashing.

Is that clearer?

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Response to Wounded Bear (Reply #70)

Tue Jun 27, 2017, 05:47 AM

157. TOS says explicitly he is.

I had to read it to join and then when I started seeing all the endless attacks on Sanders here I read it again. Maybe you should too. Here:


Don't bash Democratic public figures
Do not post disrespectful nicknames, insults, or highly inflammatory attacks against any Democratic public figures. Do not post anything that could be construed as bashing, trashing, undermining, or depressing turnout for any Democratic general election candidate, and do not compare any Democratic general election candidate unfavorably to their general election opponent(s).

Why we have this rule: Our forum members support and admire a wide variety of Democratic politicians and public figures. Constructive criticism is always welcome, but our members don't expect to see Democrats viciously denigrated on this website. This rule also applies to Independents who align themselves with Democrats (eg: Bernie Sanders).

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Reply #24)

Tue Jun 27, 2017, 05:44 AM

156. the hatred for Sanders here is stunning.

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Response to Voltaire2 (Reply #156)

Tue Jun 27, 2017, 04:16 PM

165. I think it is more that Democrats are going to stand up and speak out against his insults

 

and egregious statements he makes about us and our Democratic Party.

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Response to Voltaire2 (Reply #156)

Tue Jun 27, 2017, 08:32 PM

180. I find it interesting that actual factual critiques of his about faces

 

are called hatred by those who seem to think that anyone who dissents from his statements is ethically suspect.

And the outrage towards even the most simple statements about Bernie's factual errors, or comments about his view that anyone who who diverges, yea even on a single symbolic amendment to a bill that has been blessed by Bernie, is matched only by the sheer bile directed at Hillary by those who think that Bernie is the beacon of ethics in a sea of corrupt "corporatist" Democrats.

Go figure that there are those who dare to contradict him.... on Democratic Underground, no less.

You don’t change the system from within the Democratic Party.”

“My own feeling is that the Democratic Party is ideologically bankrupt.”

“We have to ask ourselves, ‘Why should we work within the Democratic Party if we don’t agree with anything the Democratic Party says?’ Bernie Sanders, 2015, prior to suddenly registering as one of those idealogically bankrupt Democrats, in order to run for president.

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/08/bernie-sanders-2016-democrats-121181

Yeah, there's nothing there that could possibly be an issue on Democratic Underground. And Sierra Blanca is a total non-starter....

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Reply #24)

Tue Jun 27, 2017, 09:14 PM

195. What action can Bernie take in California? He won't even talk about Vermont's failed attempt. (nt)

 

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Response to RandySF (Reply #22)

Tue Jun 27, 2017, 11:26 PM

207. Maybe you should go read the rules where it is clearly spelled out that attacking Sanders is not ok

 

And while you're at it, maybe take some time to think about why you think prominent liberals shouldn't be speaking out in favor of progressive causes.

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Response to Kentonio (Reply #207)

Wed Jun 28, 2017, 01:13 AM

209. Sanders says he is not a liberal. Progressive, yes. But, not a liberal, or Democrat.

 

Second. This subthread is about Sanders not speaking out in Vermont when he had the opportunity to do something. That is not attacking but having a conversation about when having the opportunity to do something, he chose not to.

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Response to pirateshipdude (Reply #209)

Wed Jun 28, 2017, 11:43 AM

211. The rule very specifically says that attacking Sanders is not ok.

 

It leaves absolutely no room for interpretation. If you have an issue with that, take it up with the admins.

As for what does or not count as an attack, that's between you and the jury that inevitably ends up ruling on the relevant posts. Because all that these kind of passive aggressive smears ever achieve is to piss off other Democrats and cause in-fighting, and people end up reporting posts and trying to get each others posts hidden.

Because yay, its not like we have anything important to oppose as a group right now, we should totally waste our time on this petty, schoolyard crap instead.

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Response to Kentonio (Reply #211)

Wed Jun 28, 2017, 11:48 AM

212. Explain to me please, how Sanders is allowed to attack the Democratic Party and

 

Democrats, but we are not allowed to respond to his attack because his supporters might walk away.

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Response to pirateshipdude (Reply #212)

Thu Jun 29, 2017, 12:34 PM

214. How about you look at the bigger picture?

 

Why do you give a damn if Bernie says something critical about the party? Why is it so vital to you to come here and post about how much you hate him? We've had this same shit now for coming up on 2 years. Give it a fucking break.

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Response to Kentonio (Reply #214)

Thu Jun 29, 2017, 12:35 PM

215. Promoting "both parties are the same" is a lie. Why wouldn't I challenge a lie? Eom

 

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Response to pirateshipdude (Reply #215)

Thu Jun 29, 2017, 12:39 PM

216. Yes, I'm sure the guy who votes 98% Democrat

 

And is front and center attacking Repukes every chance he gets believes that 'both parties are the same'.

This right here is why this crap pisses people off. You tell barefaced lies trying to smear one of the progressives with the most integrity in politics and you do it regardless of how many other Democrats you piss off in the process.

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Response to Kentonio (Reply #216)

Thu Jun 29, 2017, 12:42 PM

217. It is his words. He has been saying it for decades. I listen to what a person says.

 

That matters.

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Response to pirateshipdude (Reply #217)

Thu Jun 29, 2017, 12:59 PM

218. Sure you do. Screw the context, ignore the qualifiers

 

Just use words in whatever way you please to push a false narrative.

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Response to Kentonio (Reply #218)

Thu Jun 29, 2017, 01:02 PM

219. No, stating both parties are the same simply is not factual, nor condusive for the good of the whole

 

I have issues with that. You can justify, validate, excuse, or dismiss it. I think it harms us. Differing of opinion. That is all. Surely that is allowed?

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Response to pirateshipdude (Reply #219)

Thu Jun 29, 2017, 01:04 PM

220. You can think what you like, it's a free country

 

When you peddle dishonest smears against a good progressive though you'll get called out on it.

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Response to Kentonio (Reply #220)

Thu Jun 29, 2017, 01:05 PM

221. Sanders words said repeatedly. Please, do not call me a liar when the facts prove otherwise. Eom

 

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Response to pirateshipdude (Reply #221)

Thu Jun 29, 2017, 01:12 PM

222. If I take a random part of a speech or interview and use it as attack line

 

..without mentioning the context under which it was used, and without adding the qualifiers that the original person used, then I would be being dishonest. If you don't like being described in those terms, then don't do it.

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Response to Kentonio (Reply #222)

Thu Jun 29, 2017, 01:22 PM

223. The facts speak for themselves. It is out there. Others will interpret as they will. Eom

 

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Response to pirateshipdude (Reply #223)

Thu Jun 29, 2017, 01:28 PM

224. Yes, and I'll make sure that people who try and present only a small part of the picture

 

Are called out as doing so. Have a nice day.

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Response to Kentonio (Reply #224)

Thu Jun 29, 2017, 01:29 PM

225. You are gonna do what you need to do. Eom

 

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Response to Kentonio (Reply #224)

Thu Jun 29, 2017, 01:37 PM

226. I'm sure you'll hold Sanders himself to this standard. He has misrepresented

why this bill was shelved in California and attacked a very progressive California Democrat.

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Reply #21)

Sun Jun 25, 2017, 09:04 PM

39. Celebrate? Point made. I would like to see him go beyond talk. Eom

 

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Response to pirateshipdude (Reply #39)

Sun Jun 25, 2017, 09:09 PM

41. What would you have him do?

 

There are already single-payer Medicare for All bills in the House and Senate.

And no one politician can implement anything on their own... Or did that escape you?

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Reply #41)

Sun Jun 25, 2017, 09:12 PM

44. The same he is demanding every Democrat, and then bashing when not done to his satisfaction.

 

He had the power and influence when Vermont gave it a try. He spoke up for it and did nothing to help them, when they got the vote, but failed to implement.

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Response to pirateshipdude (Reply #44)

Sun Jun 25, 2017, 09:16 PM

45. Is Sanders in the VT State government?

 

Right....no...

Did you see any other Dem Senator help VT and single payer? If not, why not?

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Reply #45)

Sun Jun 25, 2017, 10:45 PM

55. 2010, he campaigned for it.

 

The state expected him to put his weight behind it. They state he was no where to be seen.

His "job"? Maybe not. But his passion and something he could have accomplished, or tried anyway? Sure.

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Reply #45)

Mon Jun 26, 2017, 02:25 PM

89. Pass. The. Buck.

 

This has been a great display of it.

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Reply #45)

Tue Jun 27, 2017, 08:23 PM

178. But he is totally an authority when it comes to California legislation? Why?

 

He refuses to comment on Vermont, but is suddenly an authority on single payer in a state where he has no connection whatsoever as a resident or a representative.

Is Ted Cruz entitled to input on California's health care legislation, too? If not, why?

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Response to pirateshipdude (Reply #44)

Tue Jun 27, 2017, 07:42 PM

168. Then refused to answer any questions about any lessons learned from it.

 

That would have come too close to acknowledging that he had something to learn.

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #168)

Tue Jun 27, 2017, 07:45 PM

169. True.

 

I have yet to hear Sanders admit to a mistake and certainly not apologize for anything.

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Response to pirateshipdude (Reply #169)

Tue Jun 27, 2017, 08:20 PM

177. That would be admitting that there are shades of grey, wouldn't it? (nt)

 

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #177)

Tue Jun 27, 2017, 08:59 PM

187. Well, true that, too. Eom.

 

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Reply #41)

Tue Jun 27, 2017, 09:16 PM

196. He could talk about lessons learned from Vermont's failure, instead of getting irritated at

 

being asked about his home state's single payer....

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Reply #21)

Mon Jun 26, 2017, 07:03 PM

120. No, but he should start small and local and try to get it passed in his OWN state....

....before commenting upon his disappointment of the legislatures of other states.

From what I've read he did very little to get it passed in his own state. Why is that?

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Reply #21)

Tue Jun 27, 2017, 09:05 PM

190. Go attack that straw man. (nt)

 

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Original post)

Sun Jun 25, 2017, 08:35 PM

23. Until we get Doctors to accept $50,000

 

a year salaries, we will never have single payer healthcare.

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Response to Motownman78 (Reply #23)

Sun Jun 25, 2017, 08:38 PM

25. Who says doctors must work for $50k?

 

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Reply #25)

Sun Jun 25, 2017, 08:42 PM

26. In order to get the cost of care down

 

so that we can afford Single-payer. McHarry Metro Hospital and University in Nashville is offering a program where if you work in rural areas for 6 years, all your medical school loans will be forgiven.

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Response to Motownman78 (Reply #26)

Sun Jun 25, 2017, 08:44 PM

28. Don't punish labor

Doctors WORK for a living

The CEOs, execs and stockholders of BigInsurance and BigPharma need to shove it

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Response to leftstreet (Reply #28)

Sun Jun 25, 2017, 08:47 PM

31. Doctors only get to charge

 

so much to pay for med school costs. Even when Ins. companies were limited to 20% profit, health care costs still continued to go up. I like what the Metro Hospital in Nashville is doing.

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Response to Motownman78 (Reply #26)

Sun Jun 25, 2017, 08:46 PM

29. Removing the criminal health insurance bloodsuckers would save $500 billion/year...

 

Plus, docs could remove 1-2 employees who do nothing but process health ins.

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Reply #29)

Sun Jun 25, 2017, 08:49 PM

34. Not quite enough

 

we would still spend 17% of GDP on healthcare if insurance companies were gone tomorrow. I like what that hospital in Nashville is doing. Single-payer is a dream unless we get what Doctors, Hospitals, and Drug Companies charge way down.

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Response to Motownman78 (Reply #34)

Sun Jun 25, 2017, 08:56 PM

37. Well, all it takes is the will of the people to put in statespersons to...

 

...make it work. SS works. Medicare works. We can get single payer to work as well.

Medicare-for-All or similar is the best and most efficient way to provide Americans
with healthcare. From there, we implement the program.

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Reply #37)

Sun Jun 25, 2017, 09:07 PM

40. "Well, all it takes is the will of the people to put in statespersons to..."

Is that all?! Maybe if we had any election, and then everyone just voted for people that wanted single-payer... Hmmm...

Easy Peasy Lemon Squeezy

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Response to LuvLoogie (Reply #40)

Sun Jun 25, 2017, 09:10 PM

43. Are you against single-payer?

 

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Reply #43)

Sun Jun 25, 2017, 09:24 PM

48. Nope. And neither is Anthony Rendon.

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Response to LuvLoogie (Reply #40)

Tue Jun 27, 2017, 09:33 PM

203. So why didn't it work in Vermont, if "will" is all it takes?

 

Lord knows you won't get anything out of Bernie on that subject...

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Reply #37)

Mon Jun 26, 2017, 03:21 AM

60. Like Sanders, you fail to present an honest assessment of health costs.

How would Medicare for All work from a financial aspect?

At present, 100% of contributions made to Medicare by everyone who has a job in this country cover the healthcare costs for the current program. Those tax dollars are barely enough to cover seniors on Medicare, who account for roughly 19% of the population.

So the question is: how much would payroll taxes need to increase to cover 100% of the population as opposed to the current 19%? The current tax rate is 1.45% for the employee and 1.45% for the employer, or a 2.9% total. 19% divides into 100% 5 times, so one assumes that one would need to raise the payroll tax five-fold to cover 100% of the population. That would mean that the employee would pay a tax of 7.25% as would the employer, equaling a tax of 14.5%.

Add into this the fact that current Medicare recipients pay monthly premiums of $109 on average, or $1308 a year.

So do the math: if you earn $50,000 a year, your Medicare tax would be $3625 at 7.25%. Add in your premiums of $1308, and you're paying just under $5,000 a year per person for Medicare for All. Sounds good.

But what if you are a family with a spouse who doesn't work and two young children who don't work? How are they covered in the Medicare for All scenario? Surely, there would be additional premium cost involved. They can't be covered free of charge. That $5000 per year mentioned above covers ONE working person, not their family members. Even if you waive the payroll tax deduction and charge only the average monthly premium per person (as Medicare currently does), you are looking at an additional $3900 per year to cover a non-working spouse and two children. That makes your cost around $9000 per year, and that is equal to 18% of that $50,000 income you are earning.

And, to cover all bases, let's not forget that you are currently paying 6.2% of your income in Social Security taxes. Add that into the mix, and your combined Medicare for All and SS expenses for that family of 4 with one bread winner described above would be over 25% of your income.

That's still a bargain when compared to the taxes paid in European nations, and it's the true cost of having a truly socialistic approach to things. It is what it is. Let's not downplay the realities involved.

I don't have the answers. I do know that while Medicare for All might well be the best and fairest approach we could take toward universal healthcare, it comes with real expenses and real costs to real people.

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Response to stopbush (Reply #60)

Tue Jun 27, 2017, 12:24 PM

160. Aren't You Excluding The Cost of The Existing Premium. . .

. . .paid by the person in your scenario? It seems like you're assuming the Med4All proposals are something for nothing, by the figures you're using. Because while all your proportions for this hypothetical family making 50k per year are true, they're paying something, non-tax deductible, out of that 50k already. If not, they've no coverage of any description.

I think in your zeal to provide some realism, you left out a pretty important reality.

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Response to ProfessorGAC (Reply #160)

Tue Jun 27, 2017, 03:40 PM

161. Well, you're wrong on a huge point,

and that is that many people who have employer-provided insurance do NOT pay a monthly premium. That was the case at my last job that came with insurance. My monthly premium was $0. The company paid $1300 a month for me to be covered. Yes, I had co-pays for services rendered, but that is a variable that sits outside of the basic equation I outlined above.

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Response to stopbush (Reply #161)

Wed Jun 28, 2017, 09:00 AM

210. Well, I Pay For Part of Mine

And i believe paying some portion of that coverage is the norm not the exception.

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Reply #37)

Mon Jun 26, 2017, 06:52 PM

114. They are already coming for Medicaid at a rapid pace with their bill.

SS and Medicare do work, yet that is going next. Perhaps before we put all our energy in single payer with 3 GOP branches of Government filled with insane and illogical people that are hell bent on killing a minimum of 23 million people and one hell of a lot more if the other two go as well. Could we just sit down and take this into proper perspective? We need to preform immediate triage on three life saving programs for Americans. You don't leave a body dyeing on a stretcher to go off and plan for the next step and leave them to die, drowning in their own blood. Fix them first and only then do we move on.

You do not say to a dying America, we will go work on that solution for ya, may take a few years but we will give you something bigger and better...we will be back for ya.

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Reply #29)

Tue Jun 27, 2017, 09:07 PM

192. Well, if it's that simple, why couldn't it work in Vermont? (nt)

 

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Response to Motownman78 (Reply #26)

Sun Jun 25, 2017, 08:49 PM

33. There have been programs like that before, very few docs take advantage of it.

Not hard to pay back a loan when you can easily make $200K per year just about anywhere.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #33)

Sun Jun 25, 2017, 08:50 PM

35. Yup, and $200K a year is what

 

will prevent ANY form of single-payer.

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Response to Motownman78 (Reply #35)

Sun Jun 25, 2017, 09:10 PM

42. Even worse are hospitals, drug companies, etc. Single payer countries say No to suppliers

who keep prices high. If we said No to the Hepatitis drug that costs almost $100K to cure the disease, patients would yell (probably rightly so), but that is what will make single payer only slightly less costly than we have now. Everyone is going to have to make changes for our health system to become affordable, and it won't happen over night.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #42)

Mon Jun 26, 2017, 03:23 PM

98. Isn't that kinda like rationing healthcare?

"If we said No to the Hepatitis drug that costs almost $100K to cure the disease, patients would yell ..."

So just let those patients die until the drug manufactures agree to lower their profit margins?

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Response to dumbcat (Reply #98)

Mon Jun 26, 2017, 03:57 PM

100. What the GOPers are doing now is rationing. If you want an affordable system, it is

going to take some rationing -- read about the British NHS and Canadian system. They ration care because an affordable system that does the most good for the most people is important to them.

You want drug prices to decrease, we are going to have to say No to unreasonably high prices. Same with hospitals, etc. Like I said in my post above, if you don't say No to unreasonable suppliers, you can't achieve affordable premiums/taxes. I don't believe a lot of Americans get that. Wish it were not that way, but it is.

Personally, I think one reason the government doesn't want single payer is that they'd rather private insurance companies handle the rationing and avoid the backlash when somebody says "Nope, we aren't going to pay that much, comeback with something less or go see how much China will pay you." I think the drug companies will fold, the American market is too important to them.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #42)

Tue Jun 27, 2017, 09:09 PM

193. There are very few single payer programs in existence.

 

Most developed countries use multi-payer systems.

Even Medicare isn't single payer.

And you are right - it won't happen overnight, or even in decades.

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Reply #25)

Tue Jun 27, 2017, 09:06 PM

191. What is your plan for funding, since you have it figured out?

 

Perhaps you have learned the lessons of Vermont that Bernie won't discuss?

Proceed.

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Response to Motownman78 (Reply #23)

Sun Jun 25, 2017, 08:54 PM

36. This is interesting

 

https://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/15/how-much-do-doctors-in-other-countries-make/

The article notes that Doctors charge much less in Europe because they do not have to pay as much for their education.

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Response to Motownman78 (Reply #23)

Mon Jun 26, 2017, 04:34 AM

62. Nurses make more than that now

According to the BLS the median nurse salary is over 68K. Since there are a heck of a lot more nurses than doctors out there what do you want to limit their salaries to 30K, 25K?

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Response to Revanchist (Reply #62)

Mon Jun 26, 2017, 07:26 PM

135. And they deserve it!

Nurses work hard and for long hours.

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Response to Motownman78 (Reply #23)

Mon Jun 26, 2017, 07:38 AM

66. Pigs will fly first....doctors spend tons of money in order to become doctors...it is a 10-12 year

degree.And people have never supported wage controls (Nixon put them in place and it was a disaster).

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Response to Motownman78 (Reply #23)

Tue Jun 27, 2017, 08:07 PM

174. THIS +oo !!!! How in the hell do people NOT understand this along with hospital groups and pharma!?

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Original post)

Sun Jun 25, 2017, 08:44 PM

27. I would ask companies

 

what they pay in health insurance for their employees. I would then have them pay the state that money to fund a single-payer system.

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Response to Motownman78 (Reply #27)

Sun Jun 25, 2017, 08:47 PM

30. The best idea would be some sort of payroll healthcare contribution tax...like Social Security and..

 

Medicare.

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Response to Motownman78 (Reply #27)

Mon Jun 26, 2017, 07:39 AM

67. And what mechanism would you use to force people to join? What about Medicaid?

It has to be part of the plan...and the GOP won't allow it.

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Original post)

Sun Jun 25, 2017, 09:30 PM

49. For every objection to single-payer,

we need only point to all the countries in which it works.

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Response to snot (Reply #49)

Sun Jun 25, 2017, 09:34 PM

51. Funny how the truth stands out...

 

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Response to snot (Reply #49)

Mon Jun 26, 2017, 07:42 AM

68. These countries are not even close to our country in ideology or population.

It is a an apple and oranges comparison. You know had Clinton been elected, she would have been very supportive of California...but the GOP won't...elections have consequences...Drumpt's election puts single payer off at least a decade and only that short of time if we keep the ACA and have something to build. Tell me how will single payer be passed without super majorities in Congress...either to do it on a federal level or to help states do it with support?

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Original post)

Sun Jun 25, 2017, 09:44 PM

52. Doesn't San Francisco have single payer?

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Original post)

Sun Jun 25, 2017, 10:48 PM

56. Is he running for governor of CA?

 

Gotta wag that finger at someone ...

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #56)

Mon Jun 26, 2017, 02:23 PM

87. We should have passed it. We should all be pissed that it didn't. Why aren't you? nt

 

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Response to JCanete (Reply #87)

Mon Jun 26, 2017, 03:13 PM

96. Because it's not my taxes they'd be doubling to pay for it

 

Single payer will be a credible option only when the government costs get debated.

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Original post)

Mon Jun 26, 2017, 11:38 AM

75. He should get the facts before he spouts his crap.

The bill is NOT ready to get out there yet and pushing it without defining the budgets etc.. will make it a sure failure. It is NOT dead but needs more work with budget reports, real plans to implement etc.. Also, this was all started with Obamacare was not at risk of being destroyed - now we have to make sure that is still in place to proceed.

IF he had a real grasp of the situation he'd know that but as usual all he can do is spout his purity shit.

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Response to nini (Reply #75)

Mon Jun 26, 2017, 12:49 PM

76. Exactly, he's not even addressing the real issues and reasons for this

being tabled. And reports on potential job losses -- why aren't jobs at stake for 39 Million Californians just as important as a few thousand white working class folks in the rust belt. Why should my state be thrown into chaos just to bolster a politician's ego in a state across the country that couldn't implement single payer either, and that was for 600,000 people.

He really should quit attacking California Democrats over something his own state didn't and wouldn't implement. Colorado didn't vote for single payer, either. At some point, he should be held accountable to explain to people the burdens of implementing single payer and why it's such a heavy lift. Rallies are nice and great optics, but he should be held accountable for the empty attacks on Democrats. Quit smearing Democrats for something he also hasn't accomplished, jeebus!



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Response to R B Garr (Reply #76)

Mon Jun 26, 2017, 01:46 PM

78. I guess we should look at all his successful bills to learn from

oh wait....

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Response to nini (Reply #78)

Tue Jun 27, 2017, 10:49 AM

159. Right again, that's why this is just more grandstanding from

him. I resent my state being scapegoated by gimmick legislation used to manipulate public opinion and with a dishonest explanation to boot about why it's being looked at more. That is bad faith right there. He couldn't get it done in smallsville, but he pretends he has all the answers for a state that is 6th in world economy.

Bashing liberal California is just going to piss people off (more). I see a few posts in this thread that his candidate here lose because of anger towards him. Quit bashing good Democrats. No good comes of it.

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Response to nini (Reply #75)

Mon Jun 26, 2017, 02:24 PM

88. What you're saying remains to be seen. I'd rather we keep the pressure on. nt

 

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Response to JCanete (Reply #88)

Mon Jun 26, 2017, 02:30 PM

91. Did I say not to keep working on it?

No.. The people of California don't need St Bernie to explain that to us.

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Response to nini (Reply #91)

Mon Jun 26, 2017, 02:41 PM

93. We have a long history of things just getting tabled and the focus moving on to other things.

 


I am also disappointed that this bill that already passed? isn't moving forward. I am not as optimistic as you are, that this is happening because every Democrat in the California Senate is onboard and just wants to get it right. Hell, we have a US Senator of California who is on record being against Single Payer.

Hopefully this doesn't fall by the wayside. I'm fine with shining a spotlight on this development.

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Original post)

Mon Jun 26, 2017, 02:03 PM

79. Nancy Pelosi Rejects Single Payer Being Added to Democratic Party Platform

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Response to LWolf (Reply #79)

Mon Jun 26, 2017, 02:17 PM

83. Well, that's NOT a good thing...

 

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Response to LWolf (Reply #79)

Mon Jun 26, 2017, 06:57 PM

116. So has Feinstein. This is a fucking problem. I don't know why people think everything is fine

 


with our message and platform. It isn't.

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Response to LWolf (Reply #79)

Tue Jun 27, 2017, 09:30 PM

201. That is a good thing. Most other developed nations have multi-payer universal health care

 

Why should we refuse to even consider it by locking it out with our platform?

Even Medicare isn't single payer.

It's like the GOP opposing what Medical professionals say is good public policy by insisting that the platform oppose legal abortion, or opposing any acknowledgement of human influenced climate change.

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #201)

Sat Jul 1, 2017, 03:46 PM

232. Medical professionals.

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Response to LWolf (Reply #232)

Sat Jul 1, 2017, 05:39 PM

233. Medical professionals are not health policy analysts.

 

Any more than meteorologists are climate scientists.

http://khn.org/news/democrats-unite-but-what-happened-to-medicare-for-all/

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Original post)

Mon Jun 26, 2017, 02:06 PM

81. If Bernie couldn't compel VERMONT to introduce Single Player...

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #81)

Mon Jun 26, 2017, 02:19 PM

85. Are you against single payer???????

 

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Reply #85)

Mon Jun 26, 2017, 02:26 PM

90. No, but I recognize the futility of beating people up when they're unable to implement it...

If Sanders has a solution other than rally speeches, I'd like to hear it.

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #90)

Mon Jun 26, 2017, 02:35 PM

92. Sanders did not beat people up as you wrote...

 

Sanders said he was disappointed.

It appears the bill, as written, was doomed as there was not a funding
aspect to the bill. In CA you need 2/3rds vote to raise taxes.

And something you may not know, rallying the people on an issue is a primary
means to get legislation passed that Serves The People...

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Reply #92)

Mon Jun 26, 2017, 02:43 PM

94. But he's not...

...He's telling the people who support Single Payer what they already believe. He's not rallying them, or any newcomers, to pressure their elected officials to do it.

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #94)

Mon Jun 26, 2017, 02:48 PM

95. How do you know that he isn't reaching other people?

 

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Reply #95)

Mon Jun 26, 2017, 03:15 PM

97. Well, polling has shown shifts in support of ACA, but no appreciable shift in Single Payer...;

...nor was there a a groundswell of popular support for SP in Vermont, Colorado (lost in a public referendum 80-20), or California.

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #97)

Mon Jun 26, 2017, 03:33 PM

99. Pew Research June 23,2017 says differently...

 


From Pew Research

Public support for ‘single payer’ health coverage grows, driven by Democrats

By Jocelyn Kiley
A majority of Americans say it is the federal government’s responsibility to make sure all Americans have health care coverage. And a growing share now supports a “single payer” approach to health insurance, according to a new national survey by Pew Research Center.

Currently, 60% say the federal government is responsible for ensuring health care coverage for all Americans, while 39% say this is not the government’s responsibility. These views are unchanged from January, but the share saying health coverage is a government responsibility remains at its highest level in nearly a decade.

Among those who see a government responsibility to provide health coverage for all, more now say it should be provided through a single health insurance system run by the government, rather than through a mix of private companies and government programs. Overall, 33% of the public now favors such a “single payer” approach to health insurance, up 5 percentage points since January and 12 points since 2014. Democrats – especially liberal Democrats – are much more supportive of this approach than they were even at the start of this year.

More: http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/06/23/public-support-for-single-payer-health-coverage-grows-driven-by-democrats/


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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Reply #99)

Mon Jun 26, 2017, 07:55 PM

137. "Overall, 33% of the public now favors such a single payer approach to health insurance"

That's up only 5% in three years. As noted, not an appreciable increase.

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Response to George II (Reply #137)

Mon Jun 26, 2017, 08:06 PM

139. Reading comprehension OR deception...?

 

"Overall, 33% of the public now favors such a “single payer” approach to health insurance, up 5 percentage points since January and 12 points since 2014."

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Reply #139)

Mon Jun 26, 2017, 08:14 PM

140. Okay, I missed that, but still 12% in three years to 33% from 22% is not...

...an appreciable shift. When you start low the increases appear bigger than they are. Remember, more than 2/3 of Americans don't support it.

See? I did that without being insulting or offensive.

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Response to George II (Reply #140)

Mon Jun 26, 2017, 08:17 PM

141. Here is something else you missed in the article excerpt I posted in my post:

 

"Currently, 60% say the federal government is responsible for ensuring health care coverage for all Americans, while 39% say this is not the government’s responsibility. "

60%....

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Reply #141)

Mon Jun 26, 2017, 08:27 PM

142. But that is irrelevant to the discussion - that's not "single payer", I'm surprised it's not higher.

We were talking about "single payer", and more than 2/3 of Americans are not in favor of it.

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Reply #92)

Sat Jul 1, 2017, 05:41 PM

234. Sanders refused to discuss VT single payer

 

Even in terms of lessons learned.

Learning from failures is an important skill for a politician.

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Reply #85)

Tue Jun 27, 2017, 09:32 PM

202. It's not the only way to universal health care - most other countries have multi-payer.

 

Single payer or bust has become dogma - like defunding Planned Parenthood is on the right.

Again.... even Medicare isn't single payer....

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #81)

Mon Jun 26, 2017, 07:59 PM

138. I don't know how many times I've pointed that out over the months. He can't get it done...

...in his home state of barely 600,000 people, but expects to be successful in other, much larger, states?

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #81)

Tue Jun 27, 2017, 08:07 PM

175. So true !!!

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Original post)

Mon Jun 26, 2017, 04:10 PM

101. It is complicated but I hope they try in the future.

 

As for Sanders he could not influence Vermont to accept single payer so I doubt he has much influence in CA.

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Response to hrmjustin (Reply #101)

Tue Jun 27, 2017, 07:51 PM

171. You're correct. It's an ineffective strategy that leaves himself open to ridicule and mocking...

... by comedians and TV hosts. It doesn't help the cause for him to do try and make other Democrats look foolish or inept or "feeble", etc. In my humble opinion, it would probably be in his best interest to avoid that type of behavior in the future. (I'm just saying.)


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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Original post)

Mon Jun 26, 2017, 04:11 PM

102. Who?

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Response to LexVegas (Reply #102)

Mon Jun 26, 2017, 04:15 PM

103. You know, Senator Sanders - the most popular Senator and one of a very few...

 

...statesperson in all of Congress.

I would think DUers would know of Senator Sanders...weird....

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Reply #103)

Mon Jun 26, 2017, 04:18 PM

104. ....

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Reply #103)

Mon Jun 26, 2017, 06:51 PM

113. Just a heads up.

When HRC left the department of State, her favorability rating was 67%. Once she was running the Republicans did everything they could to drive it down.

We can't live or die by the favorability ratings of the politicians that fight for us. Those things can turn on a dime.

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Reply #103)

Mon Jun 26, 2017, 07:53 PM

136. Most popular in his own state of Vermont.

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Response to LexVegas (Reply #102)

Tue Jun 27, 2017, 12:30 AM

149. That one guy DU specifically bans you from insulting

Because despite his schtick and sales pitch is as good a Democrat as they get? That guy?

It's in the TOS. Seriously.

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Original post)

Mon Jun 26, 2017, 06:48 PM

110. Unfortunately Sanders failed to read the reasons for the delay.

A similar bill was proposed but failed to be passed in Vermont. Perhaps he should have put his efforts into getting it passed in his home state?

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Response to George II (Reply #110)

Mon Jun 26, 2017, 07:03 PM

122. do you know whether or not he did? From a brief search, it looks like he put in some effort.

 

Why the pointless shade without at least checking this out first, cuz he had things to say about it stalling in Vermont, and there, like here, He doesn't have direct control over whether or not it passes. He's a US Senator, not a State Senator.

As to the reasons for this not passing, I'll hope for the best, but I have no reason to be confident that this isn't tabled for the indefinite future. If my state Senators show me something better, I'll be quite pleased and relieved.

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Response to JCanete (Reply #122)

Mon Jun 26, 2017, 07:06 PM

123. If he was familiar with why it stalled perhaps he wouldn't be as "extremely disappointed"?

But you're correct, in Vermont his is a US Senator, but he's not a California US Senator.

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Response to George II (Reply #123)

Mon Jun 26, 2017, 07:07 PM

125. fucked up the order and already fixed it. ...the brain sometimes...

 



Why wouldn't he still be disappointed? I am. Why can't we get it done here? We Democrats have the majority. What, after one setback you should just be okay with the rest of them? Just let those efforts fade away?

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Response to JCanete (Reply #125)

Mon Jun 26, 2017, 07:14 PM

128. Simple why it can't be done yet - FUNDING!

Saw your edit, thanks. But still, I've seen that thing about him not being able to get it done in Vermont because he's not a State Senator. So why is he commenting on California's effort? He's not a State Senator there, either.

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Response to George II (Reply #128)

Mon Jun 26, 2017, 07:15 PM

129. that's a legislative issue. What's the hold-up? Who is being appeased? nt

 

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Response to JCanete (Reply #129)

Mon Jun 26, 2017, 07:18 PM

131. We're crossing each other in our edits! Funny.



California already has one of the highest overall tax rates of any state in the country. I think the general population are those being "appeased".

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Response to George II (Reply #131)

Mon Jun 26, 2017, 07:19 PM

132. and what do you think people pay for health insurance in california? nt

 

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Original post)

Mon Jun 26, 2017, 07:10 PM

127. I read an opinion this morning that some horse-trading went on because of the new gas tax

Dems don't want to risk another huge tax bill. I'm sorry about it, although I support the gas tax too. I am writing Rendon and my own Rep, Mullin, who is the Pro tem Speaker, to move the single-payer bill out of its shelved status. I am very disappointed as I will probably lose my coverage if the ACA dies.

I don't think Bernie will have much influence unless he's organizing a campaign to write Rendon and helping fund ads for this.

The nurses union who is flying solo on this effort didn't help themselves by being utter shits last month at the Dem Convention either. They used all their political capital to hold a still-ongoing tantrum over Kimberly Ellis and let Meana Turner come shit all over the most left-wing Democratic State Party in the United States. People need to stay in their fucking lanes.

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Original post)

Mon Jun 26, 2017, 07:16 PM

130. Stay out of California Bernie

 

We don't need you gumming up the works, like you did in the national election. California will get it right, in do time.

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Response to GotHillsback (Reply #130)

Tue Jun 27, 2017, 12:38 AM

151. that's confident. We have a lot of disfunctional shit in this state, even though our Democrats

 


dominate. And Sanders was pretty popular here. He's not exactly coming in and trying to run things. He's making a statement of disappointment that we weren't able to get single payer to happen. And so am I, and I have no reason to be as optimistic as you are that its right around the corner...that we've got this...

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Original post)

Mon Jun 26, 2017, 08:42 PM

144. I would like Bernie to

Present what he's accomplished vs California Democrats side-by-side.

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Response to RandySF (Reply #144)

Mon Jun 26, 2017, 08:51 PM

145. Is this a case of 'shoot the messenger'?

 

Of course it is....

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Reply #145)

Mon Jun 26, 2017, 08:57 PM

146. No.

It's a matter of he hasn't been part of the process nor does he understand that the bill was sent back for more work, not killed.

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Response to RandySF (Reply #146)

Mon Jun 26, 2017, 09:00 PM

147. Interesting..."Present what he's accomplished vs California Democrats side-by-side."

 

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Reply #147)

Tue Jun 27, 2017, 01:47 AM

154. It is interesting because it is a fact

 

California has lead the nation for decades in the progressive changes and will continue to do so. Vermont not so much. Sorry it's not on you perfect time table but when it can get done it will.

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Response to Chevy (Reply #154)

Tue Jun 27, 2017, 08:39 PM

181. +1000. (nt)

 

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Reply #145)

Tue Jun 27, 2017, 09:35 PM

204. Asking him to talk about what happened in Vermont in order to learn from it is "shooting" him?

 

Wow.

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Original post)

Tue Jun 27, 2017, 12:16 AM

148. How odd he's so concerned with this

Yet claimed to know nothing about his own state's experience with single payer.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #148)

Tue Jun 27, 2017, 08:26 PM

179. Yeah, suddenly the expert on California, but gets defensive when asked about his home state.

 

Go figure.

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Original post)

Tue Jun 27, 2017, 12:57 AM

152. As a Californian I appreciate his words.

Passing a bill to create universal health insurance should be an urgent priority.

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Original post)

Tue Jun 27, 2017, 04:22 PM

167. Time for Bernie to get another primetime interview

where he lays out in painstaking detail everything that is wrong with the Democratic Party for the thousandth time...

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Response to Blue_Tires (Reply #167)

Tue Jun 27, 2017, 08:17 PM

176. And actually answers questions that indicate that he actually learns from history

 

such as what Vermont could have done differently to have prevented the failure of single payer there.

Until then, why would someone want his opinion on single payer in a state where he has no more authority on it than Ted Cruz?

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Original post)

Tue Jun 27, 2017, 07:49 PM

170. When he is a California resident, he'll have a say.

 

Especially considering the fact that he refuses to talk about Vermont's failed attempt, even in a "lessons learned" discussion.

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #170)

Tue Jun 27, 2017, 08:01 PM

172. I live in CA and I welcome his input and his support.

 

Single payer/Medicare for All is the only way to go. Progressives and the People
will prevail on this - hopefully sooner than later...

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Reply #172)

Tue Jun 27, 2017, 08:06 PM

173. Actually, it's not the way most of the rest of the developed world

 

manages universal health care coverage.

But facts are way more boring than dogma, and crushing any discussion or dissent on the issue. Especially when you point out that Medicare isn't actually single payer, and we are very, very different than Canada and the UK were when they implemented it. I say that as someone who loved my health care in the UK, and wish that it was that simple.

About the efficacy of dogmatic slogans - just ask the GOP. They get so much more mileage out of the dogma "If you get rid of Planned Parenthood, then abortion will just dwindle off to nothing, and women will learn to keep their legs shut" than "Actually reducing abortion is a complicated process that isn't solved with simply telling women to keep their knees together." It seems that there are many on the left who are equally irritated by the complexities of actually putting those slogans into practice as the right.

And when Bernie is a California resident or representative, he'll have a say in it, despite those that want him involved in a state where he has no place in the decisionmaking process, any more than Ted Cruz does. In the meantime, his refusal to even discuss lessons learned in Vermont's attempt render him incapable of advising anyone else. At least anyone else interested in actually implementing a statewide single payer program that might work. Perhaps those that determined that California's plan wasn't ready for implementation actually learned from Vermont's example, despite Bernie's attempts to change the topic.




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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Original post)

Tue Jun 27, 2017, 09:57 PM

205. The worst thing that can happen is you don't have all your ducks lined up so to speak

One of the main reasons why it was put on hold was because until they need to know what will happen with the ACA, since states rely on federal funding from the ACA, and that will be used to supply some of the funding for universal care

As soon as that is resolved one way or another, it will be revisited





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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Original post)

Wed Jun 28, 2017, 12:06 PM

213. Like the Donald said, "Healthcare is complicated"..

 

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Response to lapucelle (Reply #227)

Thu Jun 29, 2017, 02:49 PM

228. You did read the article you cited - right?

 

From the article:

Coburn earlier in the day forced the Senate clerk to read aloud Sanders’s 767-page amendment to the Senate healthcare bill in an effort to halt the healthcare debate.

<snip>

"The day will come, although I recognize it’s not today, when the U.S. Congress will have to vote to stand up to … all those who profit every single year off of human sickness,” Sanders said. "That day will come."

Sanders's decision to withdraw the amendment will stop the reading and allow debate to continue.The amendment would have extended Medicare coverage to all who wanted it. The program currently serves people ages 65 and up.

Senate aides estimated that the bill-reading would have taken eight to 10 hours, which would have sidelined the healthcare debate as Democratic leaders attempt to pass the overhaul by Christmas.

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Reply #228)

Thu Jun 29, 2017, 03:14 PM

229. Not only did I read the article,

I remember watching the event as it happened. The complaint was that the extra time needed for the reading of the amendment would delay the holiday recess. The fiery independent champion of the people acquiesced, withdrew his amendment, took a pragmatic approach and voted "yes" on a bill that he would later repudiate, and returned home for a well-deserved extended break from the business of the people.

I get it. It's different when some people do it. That's why it's called a double standard.

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Response to lapucelle (Reply #229)

Thu Jun 29, 2017, 03:27 PM

230. It's called nuance...

 

I guess I incorrectly thought that people here would understand nuance...

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Response to Trial_By_Fire (Reply #230)

Thu Jun 29, 2017, 03:47 PM

231. You mean like employing

a nuanced approach to the national minimum wage with a $12 minimum as the floor and a fight for $15 on a state and city level? Hey, maybe we could even include a schedule of mandatory incremental increases to reach the $15 level where the COL is disproportionately high.

Yeah, I understand nuance. I'm a NY Democrat.

I also recognize a double standard when I see it.

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